My Porn Is Ok, Your Porn Is Not Ok

[blooit]

Finally, someone who gets it. After attending the last twilight with a group of her active LDS girls, my wife really struggled with the level of hormones in the group. We talked about how the physiological effect of sexual tension in those movies and books is almost identical to the effect of visual pornography for men. Show a woman a picture of a man with his shirt off and you'll get relatively little reaction, but give her a romance novel and you will.

I came across this blog last night, and really felt like this guy got it:

"The Church has made it very clear that pornographic images (the kind men are generally drawn to) are definitely out, but the line on what is pornography for women is not so clear, or taken as seriously, and some become ensnared in moral traps as a result."

http://ldsmarriagebe...8a71229271ff5f4

The blogger is a doctor, and I felt his discussions were very appropriate and supportive of church authorities. The blog entry above is only the first in a series of entries examining "gender inequity in marriage" and he seems very balanced.

After all the attempts to address tought topics, I thought this guy hit the nail on the head.

Edited January 29, 2012 by blooit

[Storm Rider]

It does seem as if we have a blind eye to some gender issues. Of course, it can be understood when all the individuals invovled are senior, white men with onlly their world view to consider. However, the Church is quite clear on the Spirit guiding the lives of each member. We need not be commanded in all things to walk in righteousness.

[Palerider]

Always thought "Harlequin Romance" novels fell into this category which at least at the time I was dating (admittedly eons ago) were relatively prevalent among mormon girls.

I wouldn't date one that was reading them. No grip on reality.

[blooit]

The blogger has three or four follow up articles that get even better. His main point is basically that any "romance" portrayed, that distorts our reality and encourages us to say, "I wish my spouse was that way, can be dangerous to the marital relationship. A very good point IMHO.

[Storm Rider]

I wonder if women see an equivalency of these two types of escapist "entertainment"?

[robuchan]

The blogger has three or four follow up articles that get even better. His main point is basically that any "romance" portrayed, that distorts our reality and encourages us to say, "I wish my spouse was that way, can be dangerous to the marital relationship. A very good point IMHO.

Same goes for church. My wife tells me i should be more like the bishop.

[blooit]

"Robuchan attends a pornographic church" [snicker snicker]

He meant romantically... but I get your point

But your wife is right, you should lose your hair, gain some weight, and do more dishes.

Edited January 29, 2012 by blooit

[Freedom]

Thanks for sharing this. There is a degree of hypocrisy or perhaps tunnel vision in this regard. A man will shun overt pornography but rent an R rated movie with nudity and violence. Women will watch sitcoms filled with sexually charges dialogue and adulterous affairs while condemning their husband for glancing at another woman.

[frankenstein]

I think the Church did very well to address pornography for the men of the but at the time the Church failed in addressing pornography. I have know several LDS women who are addicted or were addicted to regular pornography. One of these sisters told me that she really was to hear many times dicusssions in RS were all the woman seemed to think that only men were addicted to pornography.

Also the "men can not teach children without a chaperon" did more to fail to address a issue that knows no bounds.

[mercyngrace]

I can honestly say that I've never read a romance novel, that I've never picked up a Twilight book or seen any of the movies (can't even tell you which character is which since I rarely watch t.v.). I don't watch "chic flicks" as I think they play to the stupidity of immature infatuation and glorify lust (self-centeredness) rather than love (self-sacrifice for others).

That's just never been my bag.

Now give me some sci-fi film where things explode or a redneck with a crossbow killing zombies and I'm hooked...

As for the OP, blooit, I just want you to know that some women get it. Intimacy is more than sex and if women are satisfying their need for intimacy with a fantasy relationship, they are undermining their marriage in the same way that a man does when looking at pornography.

We often present the law of chastity as if it were simply about governing oneself. In actuality, this law is about how we see and treat others. Do we objectify others to gratify our needs (physical or emotional) or do we value them enough to see and love them for the sum of who the are.

Alma taught that when we fail to bridle our passions, our love grows cold - we are less able to love others. The inverse is also true. When we bridle our passions we are able to see others for who they are rather than just for the feelings they arouse in us.

Just my two cents.

[blooit]

I can honestly say that I've never read a romance novel, that I've never picked up a Twilight book or seen any of the movies (can't even tell you which character is which since I rarely watch t.v.). I don't watch "chic flicks" as I think they play to the stupidity of immature infatuation and glorify lust (self-centeredness) rather than love (self-sacrifice for others).

That's just never been my bag.

Now give me some sci-fi film where things explode or a redneck with a crossbow killing zombies and I'm hooked...

As for the OP, blooit, I just want you to know that some women get it. Intimacy is more than sex and if women are satisfying their need for intimacy with a fantasy relationship, they are undermining their marriage in the same way that a man does when looking at pornography.

We often present the law of chastity as if it were simply about governing oneself. In actuality, this law is about how we see and treat others. Do we objectify others to gratify our needs (physical or emotional) or do we value them enough to see and love them for the sum of who the are.

Alma taught that when we fail to bridle our passions, our love grows cold - we are less able to love others. The inverse is also true. When we bridle our passions we are able to see others for who they are rather than just for the feelings they arouse in us.

Just my two cents.

Wow - much more than 2 cents there. That's some good stuff. Thank goodness I married a woman who also "gets it."

[Duncan]

I can honestly say that I've never read a romance novel, that I've never picked up a Twilight book or seen any of the movies (can't even tell you which character is which since I rarely watch t.v.). I don't watch "chic flicks" as I think they play to the stupidity of immature infatuation and glorify lust (self-centeredness) rather than love (self-sacrifice for others).

That's just never been my bag.

Now give me some sci-fi film where things explode or a redneck with a crossbow killing zombies and I'm hooked...

As for the OP, blooit, I just want you to know that some women get it. Intimacy is more than sex and if women are satisfying their need for intimacy with a fantasy relationship, they are undermining their marriage in the same way that a man does when looking at pornography.

We often present the law of chastity as if it were simply about governing oneself. In actuality, this law is about how we see and treat others. Do we objectify others to gratify our needs (physical or emotional) or do we value them enough to see and love them for the sum of who the are.

Alma taught that when we fail to bridle our passions, our love grows cold - we are less able to love others. The inverse is also true. When we bridle our passions we are able to see others for who they are rather than just for the feelings they arouse in us.

Just my two cents.

well, it's a great 2 cents! I don't know why we in the Church focus so much on the porno use and not what causes porno, like I dunno, boredom, loneliness, stress, curiosity etc.

[why me]

Finally, someone who gets it. After attending the last twilight with a group of her active LDS girls, my wife really struggled with the level of hormones in the group. We talked about how the physiological effect of sexual tension in those movies and books is almost identical to the effect of visual pornography for men. Show a woman a picture of a man with his shirt off and you'll get relatively little reaction, but give her a romance novel and you will.

I came across this blog last night, and really felt like this guy got it:

"The Church has made it very clear that pornographic images (the kind men are generally drawn to) are definitely out, but the line on what is pornography for women is not so clear, or taken as seriously, and some become ensnared in moral traps as a result."

http://ldsmarriagebe...8a71229271ff5f4

The blogger is a doctor, and I felt his discussions were very appropriate and supportive of church authorities. The blog entry above is only the first in a series of entries examining "gender inequity in marriage" and he seems very balanced.

After all the attempts to address tought topics, I thought this guy hit the nail on the head.

Much has to do with human nature. We, humans, are sexual by nature. We also have to reproduce. However, where we differ from animals is that we can find pleasure in viewing sex between people or implied romance and sex by people. And there is not much to do about it except try to repress such thoughts and imaging. However, a nun once gave me good advice. She said: why me, when you see a beautiful woman you do not need to have lustful thoughts. You can just admire her beauty and thank god for creating such a beautiful looking human being.

She was right.

One difference between men's porn is the exploitive nature of it. Women tend to have no such exploitation in such shows they watch. They just have their romance fantasy.

[why me]

well, it's a great 2 cents! I don't know why we in the Church focus so much on the porno use and not what causes porno, like I dunno, boredom, loneliness, stress, curiosity etc.

What causes porn use is the desire for humans to watch other humans have sex without guilt or their human emotional usage focused on lust. Also, the good looking aspects of the people doing porn certainly helps.

[Duncan]

What causes porn use is the desire for humans to watch other humans have sex without guilt or their human emotional usage focused on lust. Also, the good looking aspects of the people doing porn certainly helps.

well not to be condescending but some people strenously avoid watching other people drop the linen and start the grinnin

Edited January 29, 2012 by Duncan

[Calm]

well, it's a great 2 cents! I don't know why we in the Church focus so much on the porno use and not what causes porno, like I dunno, boredom, loneliness, stress, curiosity etc.

If people are following the teachings about prayer and personal study, service, family and friends' activities, they likely won't have too much time for boredom or loneliness, unless those are issues in and of themselves (and as issues I know that loneliness is addressed by leaders quite a bit). In the talks I've heard about use of porn and inappropriate fantasy materials as well as other sins such as drug use, I've heard lots of discussion about curiosity.

Stress is something that is addressed in other ways.

I assume in the addiction programs they deal with the causes specifically.

[Duncan]

If people are following the teachings about prayer and personal study, service, family and friends' activities, they likely won't have too much time for boredom or loneliness, unless those are issues in and of themselves (and as issues I know that loneliness is addressed by leaders quite a bit). In the talks I've heard about use of porn and inappropriate fantasy materials as well as other sins such as drug use, I've heard lots of discussion about curiosity.

Stress is something that is addressed in other ways.

I assume in the addiction programs they deal with the causes specifically.

in my stake I don't follow how often porn is dealt with or talked about I don't want to get involved BUT I do recall that two? years ago our stake president told everyone at a stake priesthood mtg that porn leads to M...and that leads to murder. Well to say the least it was talked about for awhile. For me I know that that is total and complete nonsense but what about some 15 yr old kid who doesn't and maybe has started a habit or did it once and is feeling like huck all the time and on it goes to be like that teen in Idaho who killed himself because he couldn't stop, Kip something or other.

[Calm]

Women tend to have no such exploitation in such shows they watch. They just have their romance fantasy.

However, the fantasy still tends to turn the 'other' into an object in the sense that it requires men to jump through a set of hoops in order to qualify as 'desirable'. This can include a wide range of behaviours including career, finances, appearance, speech patterns, etc. The desired romantic figure becomes a stereotype rather than a realistic individual. 'Love' ends up having to be expressed in a certain way to satisfy or the man is seen as not loving her enough, if at all.

[blooit]

Much has to do with human nature. We, humans, are sexual by nature. We also have to reproduce. However, where we differ from animals is that we can find pleasure in viewing sex between people or implied romance and sex by people. And there is not much to do about it except try to repress such thoughts and imaging. However, a nun once gave me good advice. She said: why me, when you see a beautiful woman you do not need to have lustful thoughts. You can just admire her beauty and thank god for creating such a beautiful looking human being.

She was right.

One difference between men's porn is the exploitive nature of it. Women tend to have no such exploitation in such shows they watch. They just have their romance fantasy.

He addresses this is in the blog - for example anime does not necessarily exploit in the same way you are discussing. Another side to consider is that I personally consider my manhood exploited when a woman chooses to wear revealing clothing or when a billboard uses a pornographic approach to marketing. I also think that female porn hurt men in some similar ways to how male porn hurts females, although that's a whole new discussion.

[Peppermint Patty]

As a family counselor with a graduate degree in psychology, I feel qualified to make a couple of observations.

First, women tend to view porn for different reasons than men. Women tend to gravitate to literature or media that focuses on intimacy or erotic storylines (Twilight Series).

Second, for better or worse, many adult industries are now focusing on women customers. There is even now a Feminist Porn Award that supposedly recognizes erotic entertainment that is smart and recognizes women customers.

More and more, women are buying and watching porn. Some studies currently show that almost as many women as men now view porn. This will obviously be something that the Church will have to address sooner than later.

[asbestosman]

I never felt like I was competing with fictitious characters from romance novels to get women to like me. It was always other real men who were nicer, better at cooking, better at staying in shape, or better at self-discipline in general.

While we are taught that arousing lust is sinful if it's outside of marriage, I'm not sure how much lust is really what's going on in romance novels. I haven't read any romance novels, but even I like forms of fiction that focus on relationships (something I thought was more central to romance novels). I really enjoyed the anime series Clannad--a very sad story which deals with family relationships as well as some of life's pain. I enjoy various video games including some from which I take avatars from over the years. Often the relationships are part of the entertainment for me. And these examples of entertainment I enjoy are relatively cheap unremarkable things. I'm not sure where people would classify Jane Austen's works--romance or whatever--but I don't think her works are sinful in any way. I just never had any interest in them. In any case her works are certainly more significant than the entertainment I choose.

Edited January 29, 2012 by asbestosman

[Deborah]

Now give me some sci-fi film where things explode or a redneck with a crossbow killing zombies and I'm hooked...

Me too. Much prefer action to romance.

I would like to say to those men who complain about their wives reading romance novels, maybe they wouldn't need to if they had a little real romance in their lives.

[Peppermint Patty]

Me too. Much prefer action to romance.

I would like to say to those men who complain about their wives reading romance novels, maybe they wouldn't need to if they had a little real romance in their lives.

Right on, girlfriend!

This probably deserves a different OP, but we can probably do a much better job preparing our youth for intimacy in marriage. Many of our women, as well as our men, have huge issues related to intimacy. Many people that I have counseled feel guilty about even having normal relations in the confines of marriage.

More than often, we teach our youth conflicting ideas about sex. On one hand, we bombard our youth with the message that sex is immoral, bad and should only be shared with the one they marry. Many adults have a difficult time once they marry, separating the feelings of guilt from sex. Unfortunately, this leads to intimacy problems and marriage troubles. Just my 2 cents.

[Tarski]

The blogger has three or four follow up articles that get even better. His main point is basically that any "romance" portrayed, that distorts our reality and encourages us to say, "I wish my spouse was that way, can be dangerous to the marital relationship. A very good point IMHO.

Maybe Mormons should do more than just step up their game in the prudery department (which seems to be the thrust of the OP).

Maybe anykind of fiction should be discouraged since it may make us imagine something different than what is the case and then we will be wanting what we don't have.

In particular, people who watch certain movies might start wishing all the facinating magical stuff was real too.

The imaginary is to be despised, and counterfactual to be left unthought.

As far as spouses, maybe I should avoid watching movies that feature blondes since I might start wishing that my wife were blonde (she is brunette).

It's a tricky world.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Tarski

[Deborah]

This probably deserves a different OP, but we can probably do a much better job preparing our youth for intimacy in marriage.

I agree, but I think if they see their parents being affectionate and romantic they will learn that there is more to it than just getting married and having kids. I think too many men think they can be unkind all day and then expect their wives to be responsive at night.