LeSellers Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Not always. Sometimes interest in romance novels are about excitement or a desire for status rather than sex or even simply a desire to feel safe and secure and wanted outside of the sexual component.Men may look at porn because they desire these things as well, but due to the explicit sexual nature of porn, it is always expressed in a sexual context, not so in romance novels (some of which can be remarkably lacking in actual sexual behaviour).Parallel arguments could be made from the man's perspective. It seems all blowing smoke to me.Lehi Edited January 30, 2012 by LeSellers
asbestosman Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Parallel arguments oculd be made from the man's perspective.So men look at porn for status, or to feel safe and wanted outside of a sexual component?I know I like reading my math books, but I don't think anyone seriously considers them pornography. I'm having a hard time thinking of actual pornography for males that didn't have a sexual component to it. The very definition requires an element of the erotic.
Deborah Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 2) If men are often (usually?) the cause of relationship problems (see post #25), why do women even bother with us?I never said they are usually the problems. I've seen women who have been awful to their husbands as well. To me the most important thing is to be kind and considerate and yes that goes both ways. But do men even realize how important that is for a woman? I believe from what I have observed from many of my women friends that the nagging wouldn't start if the husband immediately came home with kind words and affection.My son sometimes gets irritated with my little 3 year old granddaughter who can be very demanding. The longer he ignores her the worse she gets. I told him if he will take 5 minutes to sit with her and read a book she will leave him alone and let him do what he needs to. I learned that long ago with my kids. The same thing applies to spouses.
MorningStar Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 I never felt like I was competing with fictitious characters from romance novels to get women to like me. It was always other real men who were nicer, better at cooking, better at staying in shape, or better at self-discipline in general.While we are taught that arousing lust is sinful if it's outside of marriage, I'm not sure how much lust is really what's going on in romance novels. I haven't read any romance novels, but even I like forms of fiction that focus on relationships (something I thought was more central to romance novels). I really enjoyed the anime series Clannad--a very sad story which deals with family relationships as well as some of life's pain. I enjoy various video games including some from which I take avatars from over the years. Often the relationships are part of the entertainment for me. And these examples of entertainment I enjoy are relatively cheap unremarkable things. I'm not sure where people would classify Jane Austen's works--romance or whatever--but I don't think her works are sinful in any way. I just never had any interest in them. In any case her works are certainly more significant than the entertainment I choose.I think that's a problem too. It's easy to compare our husbands' less desirable qualities to other real men's good qualities, but no man has every good quality. Also, some of our strengths may become weaknesses in other areas. We have to decide what our priorities are - what we absolutely have to have and realize that there are going to be things we're not happy with, but that we are not perfect either. My best friend can't stand how cheap her husband is and wishes he would be more thoughtful about giving gifts. But it's his cheapness that keeps them financially stable. My husband is very thoughtful and loves to spoil me, but he sometimes does it when we can't afford it. Having a thoughtful husband was a priority for me though, so I put up with his spending and he puts up with my nagging (aka gentle reminding) about his spending. I think we actually balance each other well. 1
blooit Posted January 30, 2012 Author Posted January 30, 2012 Once again you are equating romance novels with porn. And a asking that a man be kind and show some romance is not on the same level as a man wanting a woman to be "more aggressive" and therefore resorting to porn. Porn is totally degrading and will not inspire romance, which is what women crave.I am following you here. I disagree, but I understand. I do equate the two. Both erotic literature (if I can switch to that term) and visual pornography can be done with varying degrees of degradation. Both are often called "art." I don't expect that you read all five parts of the blog (I'm sure you have a life) but he addresses this at length in those articles, and I think makes a good case for it.Let me be clear, a woman is more likely to cheat on her husband based on what she has read than what she has looked at. It is simple biology.
Duncan Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 some people look for a connection even if it is fake because fake is better then nothing. Honestly I am not suprised that porn is rampant in our chuch.
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 I agree to an extent and women should give the man some space and not nag. But the man needs to appreciate when his wife stays home all day that she's probably not feeling very romantic after listening to whiny children and cleaning up messes. Furthermore she's probably not feeling very attractive. A little thoughtfulness goes a long way.And this can hopefully be dealt with by the husband and wife planning together to realistically allow her some free time to work on her side of things as he works on his.Obviously there are times in the relationship where both have to accept they are not the first priority on the other's list (such as when a new baby or new job happens and adjustments need to take place). But if a relationship is to last over a long period of time, there must be communication and work on both sides to add romance and physicality into it to the best of their ability.A woman who retreats into romance novels, giving up on herself and her partner is as much to blame as a man who does the same with porn, imo. I think, however, from what I've seen this is less likely to happen with a woman than with a man due to the neurochemical reactions that have been demonstrated to occur with porn. I do not see the same thing happening with romance novels that avoid the explicit sexuality that exists in porn.I'd like to see studies that compare the brains of men and women and their reactions to porn/romance novels to see if they are comparable for those making the claim that they are. 1
LeSellers Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Are you seriously equating Hot Bike 'n' Hot Chicks with a novel that talks about a man caring for a woman and sacrificing for her, which is what most romance novels are about.In a sense, yes, I am.Hot Bikes 'n' Hot Chicks (a fictional magazine, as far as I know) serves to tittilate a man's sexual desire, and does so by portraying fantasy women. These women are not real in any sense. They are doing things no flesh and blood woman would do, wearing what no woman would wear, posing as no woman would pose. Men are visual, by and large, and polygynists, so this appeals to our prurient natures.Caldera in Vensus (a hypothetical book) portrays a man (women are monandrous) as caring far beyond what a lesh and blood man is or ever was. It paints him a wholly self sacrificing to the point that Jesus alone could match him. Women respond to this kind of illusion in ways that are precisely parallel to how their complements do with Hot Bikes 'n' Hot Chicks.Women who claim to read romance novels for any other reason sound just like the men who "read Playboy for the movie reviews".Lehi
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 I'm having a hard time thinking of actual pornography for males that didn't have a sexual component to it. The very definition requires an element of the erotic.Exactly.
Deborah Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Both erotic literature (if I can switch to that term) and visual pornography can be done with varying degrees of degradation.I don't agree that romantic literature is the same as erotic literature. You do realize the classics such as Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre are considered romantic. There is nothing erotic about them.Let me be clear, a woman is more likely to cheat on her husband based on what she has read than what she has looked at. It is simple biology.If that were the case we'd have a lot more women cheating on their husbands because almost all girls and young women read romantic novels. I think if a woman cheats there's a lot more to it than reading some novel, usually because she's neglected and feels unloved and finds someone who appreciates her.
LeSellers Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) So men look at porn for status, or to feel safe and wanted outside of a sexual component?"Parallel" is not "identical".Women are aroused by different stimuli than men.Porn is designed to arouse men. Romance novels are designed to arouse women. They each achieve their goals by pandering to the "needs" of the target sex. They pull the triggers of men on the one case, and women in the other. They are parallel, but they are each designed to do the same thing: present ideal objects of sexual desire in the most provacative way, "most provacative" being very different for either sex.Lehi Edited January 30, 2012 by LeSellers
asbestosman Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Deborah,I'm a bit confused by your responseI never said they are usually the problems. I've seen women who have been awful to their husbands as well. To me the most important thing is to be kind and considerate and yes that goes both ways.So far I'm with you (I think) and completely agree.But do men even realize how important that is for a woman? I believe from what I have observed from many of my women friends that the nagging wouldn't start if the husband immediately came home with kind words and affection.Here's where the confusion comes. At first it seemed you were saying that things are equal (or at least not so usually men's fault) and now you seem to be saying that indeed it usually is the men's fault.In any case, the core of my question isn't who's at fault. In fact if I listen to talks by general authorities it appears that it usually is men's fault (but not always). That's all a side-issue though.The core of my question is: why? Why are we worth it? I mean, I get why men like women. I just don't see what they see in us. My best guess, based on experience with my wife, is that she's delusional about me frequently enough to keep going along with it.To answer your question: I think we do realize it when we sit down and contemplate--at least some of us. Some of us may need more time to quietly contemplate. Another issue may be in how men show consideration. It can be different across genders and across families / cultures.
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Women who claim to read romance novels for any other reason sound just like the men who "read Playboy for the movie reviews".But there are plenty of romance novels that have little sexual details involved, basically what if was on film would be G rated or at worst PG because it involves a mature relationship rather than just kids.OTOH, by the very definition of porn, you get an R rating.Saying that something that is G rated can have the same level of sexual involvement as something R rated simply because it is a woman doing the reading seems a poor argument to me. I would agree that saying one is reading what amounts to an R rated book purely for a fantasy about status or feeling safe and wanted is ridiculous, but there are plenty of romance novels out there that would be rated at a much lower level than R.
Deborah Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 The core of my question is: why? Why are we worth it? I mean, I get why men like women. I just don't see what they see in us. My best guess, based on experience with my wife, is that she's delusional about me frequently enough to keep going along with it.Because women love men, silly, and they are much more willing to put up with little faults.
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Let me be clear, a woman is more likely to cheat on her husband based on what she has read than what she has looked at.Like to see the data please.
LeSellers Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) But there are plenty of romance novels that have little sexual details involved, basically what if was on film would be G rated or at worst PG because it involves a mature relationship rather than just kids.The fact that there's not sex in the novel does not mean it doesn't function as porn for women. If the goal of the novelist is to portray the female role "safe", "cared-for", etc., in ways that her husband is unlikley (or even come close to doing), it's porn for women. Women don't need physical sex to be satisfied, because that isn't necessarily the goal of sex for you. You want the caring, the safety (which is why men who want to keep their wives happy should get out of debt), the deference. The sex is, itself, not a critical factor in making you happy. For men, it's very much about sex. What is the old saw? "Men use love to get sex. Women use sex to get love."Whatever thing establishes a barrier between one spouse and the other or substitutes an artificial threashhold which the spouse cannot cross, is destructive to the relationship and is porn.Lehi Edited January 30, 2012 by LeSellers
asbestosman Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 "Parallel" is not "identical".Women are aroused by different stimuli than men.Porn is desinged to arouse men.Agreed.Romance novels are designed to arouse women.Here is where we part ways. Romance novels are not always about arousing women. That's what several people have tried to say in this thread. Furthermore, even I am entertained by some fiction dealing with human relationships. Trust me--it's not erotic for me, but it does stir my emotions and give me some things to contemplate.
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 "Parallel" is not "identical".Women are aroused by different stimuli than men.Porn is desinged to arouse men. Romance novels are designed to arouse women.But what is aroused is different and the difference in neurochemicals and their levels being released involved is significant, imo.
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) The fact that there's not sex in the novel does not mean it doesn't function as pron for women. If the goal of the novelist is to portray the female role "safe", "cared-for", etc., in ways that her husband is unlikley (or even come close to doing), it's porn for women......Whatever thing establishes a barrier between one spouse and the other or substitutes an artificial threashhold which the spouse cannot cross, is destructive to the relationship and is porn.I think you are expanding the definition of porn.I think it would be better to use a different term and argue that the ultimate results of the two different experiences can be similar (both highly destructive to the marital relationship) rather than trying to apply the same definition to each. Creating an equivalency between the two could result in misunderstanding the underlying issues and how to treat them.Addiction to porn is much more physical than an addiction to romance novels in most cases. I have often seen women lose what amounts to an addictive interest in romance novels (or soap operas) simply by finding something interesting to be involved in that takes up the time they had devoted to the novels or shows, while it is more often the case that even with getting sexual satisfaction in their relationships men are still addicted to porn. Edited January 30, 2012 by calmoriah
bluebell Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 They serve the same purpose, one for one sex, the other for the complement: to supply (or enhance) a sexual desire.No, they really don't.Many misunderstand what romance really is and this is why many of them really believe that porn for a man is equal to romance for a woman.
LeSellers Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 But what is aroused is different and the difference in neurochemicals and their levels being released involved is significant, imo.While that is true, it's irrelevant.Men use love to get sex, women use sex to get love. If arousal is the goal, and results in the reader.looke's feeling his spouse does not measure up, it's porn.Lehi
bluebell Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Men get charged (and not without basis) for neglecting their wives. But women do equivalent things (or fail to do them), and men are just supposed to suck it up. You get romance novels without question, but if a man picks up Hot Bike 'n' Hot Chicks, he's some sort of pervert. Sorry, sisters, it's not a one-way street.LehiIt's hard to take anyone seriously who is trying to equate porn with a Jane Austin novel.The fact is that porn is automatically and always a sin; romance novels are not automatically or always a sin. When it comes to those facts, yes, you are just going to have to suck it up and accept them. It's not about a double standard, it's about reality.
asbestosman Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 For men, it's very much about sex. What is the old saw? "Men use love to get sex. Women use sex to get love."While I think there may be some truth to it, I also think it's misleading or at least overly simplistic. When I was in the market for a spouse, I wasn't just looking for a nice set of legs. I wanted a friend, companion, and someone I could enjoy life with even the years make us lose our youthful figures.I have another question. Why is feeling safety, caring, etc. sinful? Do I need to confess to my bishop about watching the Anime called Clannad (which I did not find erotic in the least)?I grant that unrealistic expectations can become a problem. I just don't see that as always being the case with fiction focusing on relationships.
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 While that is true, it's irrelevant.It certainly is not when it comes to addiction.That is like saying the difference between tylenol and oxycontin is irrelevant because they both make one feel better.
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Do I need to confess to my bishop about watching the Anime called Clannad (which I did not find erotic in the least)?Sound of Music is a romance. I guess I'm going to have to go confess to the Bishop that I've watched porn having watched that movie.
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