Peppermint Patty Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 I agree, but I think if they see their parents being affectionate and romantic they will learn that there is more to it than just getting married and having kids. I think too many men think they can be unkind all day and then expect their wives to be responsive at night.Excellent post. +1
frankenstein Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Me too. Much prefer action to romance.I would like to say to those men who complain about their wives reading romance novels, maybe they wouldn't need to if they had a little real romance in their lives.Not the women I know. They read those novels because of their addiction to pornography so rather than view porn they read.
bluebell Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Not the women I know. They read those novels because of their addiction to pornography so rather than view porn they read.I find it kind of odd that women you know have actually told you that they read these novels so they can read porn. (I just can't imagine ever finding that kind of conversation between my husband and another woman 'o.k.', but obviously not everyone sees it the way i would).Regardless though, if those women think that it's o.k. to read novels which have graphic sex scenes in them, just because leaders of the church have not specifically called them porn, they are delusional. I don't know any woman who believes that reading about sex is any more o.k. than looking at pictures of it. It's so obviously not approved by the church that i can't imagine any rational woman honestly feeling justified in such an activity.Women are not stupid. We can recognize porn whatever form in comes in (just like men) and though some women might be trying to cut down on the guilt by pretending reading it is o.k., it's no different than when anyone tries to justify sin they don't want to give up yet. Some women choosing to read sexual novels has nothing to do with women trying to cultivate a double standard, and it certainly isn't because some man hasn't yet set us straight and told us that such books secretly are porn and that we should stir clear.And romance novels/movies are not automatically 'porn for women'. Romance and porn are not the same thing. If a man thinks they are the same, they have completely missed the boat. 1
Deborah Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 And romance novels/movies are not automatically 'porn for women'. Romance and porn are not the same thing. If a man thinks they are the same, they have completely missed the boat.Amen. I've read my share of romance novels when I was young (except for the Harlequin, which I found totally uninteresting). A woman reads these for the romance, not the sexual descriptions, Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights are all romance novels without any sexual descriptions.
blooit Posted January 30, 2012 Author Posted January 30, 2012 Me too. Much prefer action to romance. I would like to say to those men who complain about their wives reading romance novels, maybe they wouldn't need to if they had a little real romance in their lives.Deborah - really? What little I know of you (which is good by the way) - this kind of surprises me. Let's look at the reverse and say that a man posted "women who complain about their husbands viewing porn, maybe they wouldn't need to view porn if their wives would work on being more adventurous in intimacy." - or even worse if they tried to lose weight.That's the whole risk with porn - for men or women, is holding unrealistic expectations for our spouse and then going elsewhere (romance novels or visual porn or another individual) when they don't live up to them. 2
Senator Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Me too. Much prefer action to romance.I would like to say to those men who complain about their wives reading romance novels, maybe they wouldn't need to if they had a little real romance in their lives.Are you sure you want to take this angle?
Deborah Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 That's the whole risk with porn - for men or women, is holding unrealistic expectations for our spouse and then going elsewhere (romance novels or visual porn or another individual) when they don't live up to them.But you are assuming romance novels are on the same level as porn, which they aren't. I'm not saying women don't get addicted to actual porn or eroticism, and that can be a big problem, but there seems to be the assumption because a woman reads a romance novel she is on the same level as a man who views porn.
LDSToronto Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 As a family counselor with a graduate degree in psychology, I feel qualified to make a couple of observations.First, women tend to view porn for different reasons than men. Women tend to gravitate to literature or media that focuses on intimacy or erotic storylines (Twilight Series).Second, for better or worse, many adult industries are now focusing on women customers. There is even now a Feminist Porn Award that supposedly recognizes erotic entertainment that is smart and recognizes women customers.More and more, women are buying and watching porn. Some studies currently show that almost as many women as men now view porn. This will obviously be something that the Church will have to address sooner than later.As a professional counselor, do you feel that women and men are always damaged by watching pornography, especially if the porn is geared towards women and if the porn is viewed together?H.
Senator Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 But you are assuming romance novels are on the same level as porn, which they aren't. I'm not saying women don't get addicted to actual porn or eroticism, and that can be a big problem, but there seems to be the assumption because a woman reads a romance novel she is on the same level as a man who views porn.I don't believe the difference to be large.
LDSToronto Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 I agree, but I think if they see their parents being affectionate and romantic they will learn that there is more to it than just getting married and having kids. I think too many men think they can be unkind all day and then expect their wives to be responsive at night.Yes!See, I reject the notion that romance novels and Twilight are examples of pornography. Escapism, maybe, but pornography? No.I was talking with a friend of mine and she said something that makes sense. She said the idea that relationships could be more equal and fulfilling could make a reader ask why her marriage and "divinely created" gender role are so lacking.H.
Peppermint Patty Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 As a professional counselor, do you feel that women and men are always damaged by watching pornography, especially if the porn is geared towards women and if the porn is viewed together?H.No.
LeSellers Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) I would like to say to those men who complain about their wives reading romance novels, maybe they wouldn't need to if they had a little real romance in their lives.Right on, girlfriend!And I say if wives would be more agressive in the bedroom, men wouldn't need porn.At least I would if I believed that. But blaming one's spouse for his lustful desire/addiction, irrespective of which spouse is the blamer and which the blamee, is a total copout; just an excuse for sin: it's no better turned one way than the other.Lehi Edited January 30, 2012 by LeSellers 1
mercyngrace Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 And I say if wives would be more agressive in the bedroom, men wouldn't need porn.At least I would if I believed that. But blaming one's spouse for his lustful desire/addiction, irrespective of which spouse is the blamer and which the blamee, is a total copout; just an excuse for sin: it's no better turned one way than the other.LehiIMO, it's also an excuse not to do the hard work of creating the open, honest, intimate relationship you ought to have with your spouse.
LeSellers Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) And romance novels/movies are not automatically 'porn for women'. Romance and porn are not the same thing. If a man thinks they are the same, they have completely missed the boat.They serve the same purpose, one for one sex, the other for the complement: to supply (or enhance) a sexual desire.Just because one is "acceptable" in society and the other is not, does not make the first a good thing.Women are told they cannot stck up against the air-brushed bimbos in Hustler, but the same is true of the overblown guys in the "romance" novels: guys cannot do what those fabricated characters do, jest'aint gonna happen. Both objects are fictions, the men in the "literature" and women in the "art".Lehi Edited January 30, 2012 by LeSellers
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 While I believe an addiction to romance novels or an insistence that life imitates art can harm a relationship, a woman can read a romance novel without automatically comparing the man in her life to the impossible to equal hero. When lacking other material, I have read romance novels just to laugh at them for example.OTOH, it is much less common for men (or women I suspect) not to have at least a physical reaction to porn (visual or verbal) even if they don't translate it into their relationship by comparing their partner to the impossible to equal porn star. The physical reaction to porn is most definitely something above and beyond what is typically defined as romance novels (if a novel typical creates a physical reaction comparable to visual porn for its readers, it is not so much a romance novel as it is porn, soft or more explicit).
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 IMO, it's also an excuse not to do the hard work of creating the open, honest, intimate relationship you ought to have with your spouse.I think if a woman wants the romance that she sees in the novel, it is as much a responsibility for her to create it as her husband's.
Deborah Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 At least I would if I believed that. but blaming one's spouse for his lustful desire/addiction, irrespective of which spouse is the blamer and which the blamee is a totla copout;Once again you are equating romance novels with porn. And a asking that a man be kind and show some romance is not on the same level as a man wanting a woman to be "more aggressive" and therefore resorting to porn. Porn is totally degrading and will not inspire romance, which is what women crave.
Calm Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) They serve the same purpose, one for one sex, the other for the complement: to supply (or enhance) a sexual desire.Not always. Sometimes interest in romance novels are about excitement or a desire for status rather than sex or even simply a desire to feel safe and secure and wanted outside of the sexual component.Men may look at porn because they desire these things as well, but due to the explicit sexual nature of porn, it is always expressed in a sexual context, not so in romance novels (some of which can be remarkably lacking in actual sexual behaviour). Edited January 30, 2012 by calmoriah
LeSellers Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 IMO, it's also an excuse not to do the hard work of creating the open, honest, intimate relationship you ought to have with your spouse.So, now who gets the blame when the wife doesn't doll up for her man when he gets home? Should she dress provacatively for him? Should she put on perfume every night? How about cosmetic surgery to make her more competitive with the women he works with?Women use the excuse, "I'm too tired from working with the children all day to make him 'happy to see me'", as Mae West used to put it, "He needs to accept me as I am."Men get charged (and not without basis) for neglecting their wives. But women do equivalent things (or fail to do them), and men are just supposed to suck it up. You get romance novels without question, but if a man picks up Hot Bike 'n' Hot Chicks, he's some sort of pervert. Sorry, sisters, it's not a one-way street.Lehi 1
Deborah Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 I think if a woman wants the romance that she sees in the novel, it is as much a responsibility for her to create it as her husband's.I agree to an extent and women should give the man some space and not nag. But the man needs to appreciate when his wife stays home all day that she's probably not feeling very romantic after listening to whiny children and cleaning up messes. Furthermore she's probably not feeling very attractive. A little thoughtfulness goes a long way.
mercyngrace Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 I think if a woman wants the romance that she sees in the novel, it is as much a responsibility for her to create it as her husband's.Yep.
MorningStar Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 I do think that some novels can set women up to be disappointed and expect things of their husbands that aren't realistic, but I don't know if I would call Twilight pornographic. I haven't read the novels though and don't plan on it. I saw the first couple movies once and thought they were ridiculous and not in the least bit arousing. But I guess if you're into cold, pasty guys that sparkle and are insanely possessive/depressed, then maybe.
mercyngrace Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) So, now who gets the blame when the wife doesn't doll up for her man when he gets home? Should she dress provacatively for him? Should she put on perfume every night? How about cosmetic surgery to make her more competitive with the women he works with?Women use the excuse, "I'm too tired from working with the children all day to make him 'happy to see me'", as Mae West used to put it, "He needs to accept me as I am."Men get charged (and not without basis) for neglecting their wives. But women do equivalent things (or fail to do them), and men are just supposed to suck it up. You get romance novels without question, but if a man picks up Hot Bike 'n' Hot Chicks, he's some sort of pervert. Sorry, sisters, it's not a one-way street.LehiYou misunderstood my comment, Lehi. I was agreeing with you. BOTH partners are supposed to be about the hard work of building a relationship with each other, not with a fantasy. Edited January 30, 2012 by mercyngrace
Deborah Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Men get charged (and not without basis) for neglecting their wives. But women do equivalent things (or fail to do them), and men are just supposed to suck it up. You get romance novels without question, but if a man picks up Hot Bike 'n' Hot Chicks, he's some sort of pervert. Sorry, sisters, it's not a one-way street.Are you seriously equating Hot Bike 'n' Hot Chicks with a novel that talks about a man caring for a woman and sacrificing for her, which is what most romance novels are about.
asbestosman Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Amen. I've read my share of romance novels when I was young (except for the Harlequin, which I found totally uninteresting). A woman reads these for the romance, not the sexual descriptions, Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights are all romance novels without any sexual descriptions.But you are assuming romance novels are on the same level as porn, which they aren't. I'm not saying women don't get addicted to actual porn or eroticism, and that can be a big problem, but there seems to be the assumption because a woman reads a romance novel she is on the same level as a man who views porn.These two together is what I had in mind when I wrote post #21. I admit I was initially a bit concerned when you wrote #25, but in light of your further clarifications I think it makes a lot more sense.I only have two questions which I would appreciate any qualified female to answer:1) What tips are there for me to improve my communication so that I could more clearly express what I quoted from Deborah above when I wrote my post #21.2) If men are often (usually?) the cause of relationship problems (see post #25), why do women even bother with us?
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