Evolution: An Honest Hypothetical For Those Who Reject It

[David T]

The other thread is dedicated to going back and forth saying "evolution is real" "no it's not" "yes, it is" "no, it's not!".

This thread is for those who feel that the belief in evolution is a terrible, horrible, no-good very bad thing based on current doctrinal/scriptural understanding to share how you feel it would effect your Church life, beliefs, and worship if, hypothetically, the Church came out with a proclamation this next conference declaring that, while affirming the eternal divinity and pre-mortality of Man's spirit, the Lord has confirmed through revelation new light that the physical bodies of mankind did in fact biologically evolve in line with the findings of Darwinian Evolution.

Do you feel this would you allow this to change your personal position on evolution? If not, why?

How would this change your view of scripture?

How would this change your view of modern prophets?

How would this change your view of the Atonement?

How would this change your view of Jesus Christ?

How would this change your commitment to your Church membership?

Again, this thread isn't to debate whether evolution is true or false. It's not to mock those who do believe, or who don't believe. It's not to judge anyone's faith, intelligence, or level of devotion. It is to give those who are highly doctrinally opposed to it room to express how such an official paradigm shift would effect them personally, and practically, and perhaps spiritually.

Not interested in comments like, "The prophets would never say that, so this is a stupid question, etc". This goes with what one's reaction would be if it DID happen.

If it doesn't remain civil, I might ask for this to become a Focused Discussion, and to be moderated accordingly. I'm not looking for any cheap shots here, but real honest discussion. I really want to understand how deeply this belief holds, and how much of a lynchpin this specific topic is in one's personal understanding of the truth and relevance of the Gospel.

No proselyting for pro-evolution in this thread, please.

Thanks in advance!

Edited January 18, 2012 by nackhadlow

[zerinus]

. . . how you feel it would effect your Church life, beliefs, and worship if, hypothetically, the Church came out with a proclamation this next conference declaring that, while affirming the eternal divinity and pre-mortality of Man's spirit, the Lord has confirmed through revelation new light that the physical bodies of mankind did in fact biologically evolve in line with the findings of Darwinian Evolution.

That is a hypothetical and worthless question to try and answer. It is like asking, "What would you do if the Church received a revelation proclaiming that God was the devil?" The answer is that it is an event that has never happened and is unlikely ever to happen, and it is an unworthy exercise for me try and decide how I should respond to it if it did. If it did, I will decide how to respond to it then, not now.

Edited January 18, 2012 by zerinus

[David T]

Not interested in comments like, "The prophets would never say that, so this is a stupid question, etc". This goes with what one's reaction would be if it DID happen.

Thanks in advance!

That is a hypothetical and worthless question to try and answer. It is like asking, "What would you do if the Church received a revelation proclaiming that God was the devil?" The answer is that it is an event that has never happened and is unlikely ever to happen. If it did, I will decide how to respond to it then, not now.

Edited January 18, 2012 by nackhadlow

[zerinus]

Like it or not, that is the only right answer to your question.

[Senator]

If such an annoucement were to be made, it would cause a slight raise to my left, upper lip, accompanied with a short puff of breath through the nose, so imperceptible that if one wasn't paying close attention, it would be entirely missed.

Edit: Sorry, you were only looking for those who reject it. That's not me....

Edited January 18, 2012 by Senator

[David T]

It is like asking, "What would you do if the Church received a revelation proclaiming that God was the devil?" The answer is that it is an event that has never happened and is unlikely ever to happen

The day the Church comes out and officially declares and affirms that we worship the figure presented in scripture as the Devil, then I would, in fact, officially disaffiliate myself with them. I don't think it's at all possible, but I certainly know what I would do.

I'm asking individuals to think of something that is far less absurd, something that does in fact have precedence in religious history, as when Galileo's heliocentrism was viewed as an anti-scriptural attack on true religion, but was later officially overturned and accepted and accommodated as part of reality. Whether or not this is or would be the case is not the question - the question is asking you to try to place yourself in that position, and respond, based on where you are right now, how that would effect your view of some specific topics that I have seen many believe are directly effected by this one topic.

I think it's a very healthy exercise for many members to consider what their reaction would be if a particular controversial historical/doctrinal element would be officially strongly reaffirmed or readjusted using the specific language of new revelation. During my Church membership, I've changed my paradigm several times. In some cases to more 'doctrinally liberal' views, and in others, surprisingly more 'doctrinally conservative'. I am convinced that as part of a Church founded on living revelation, and as guided by my studies and heeding the promptings of the spirit, I am not finished with my paradigm being shaken, alterered, and strengthened in the process.

Again, I would like to re-invite participants to refrain from insulting anyone, and to please abide by the requests in the OP. Keep your back-and-forth banter to the other thread, please. I feel this could be a productive discussion, allowing those who reject the concept of evolution to speak for themselves in explaining how central a tenet this is to them, and explore and think about how such a strongly worded pronouncement might feel to them. Imagine as if you were hearing it right now. Having been on this forum for a while, I know we have some pretty active imaginations here I'd like to see that focused on this particular issue.

If you think this is stupid like zerinus, that's fine. That's the one opinion I wish you would keep to yourself, and not on this thread, as it isn't productive for its purposes. There's plenty other places to tell people they're stupid on this board, seeing as it happens all the time. Please just keep it away from this thread. Thanks.

[CV75]

This thread is for those who feel that the belief in evolution is a terrible, horrible, no-good very bad thing based on current doctrinal/scriptural understanding to share how you feel it would effect your Church life, beliefs, and worship if, hypothetically, the Church came out with a proclamation this next conference declaring that, while affirming the eternal divinity and pre-mortality of Man's spirit, the Lord has confirmed through revelation new light that the physical bodies of mankind did in fact biologically evolve in line with the findings of Darwinian Evolution.

This is a great exercsise. I hope you don't mind my paticipating even though I don't have a black-and-view on the issue.

If the definition for Darwinian Evolution that we’re to be using is basically that all organisms resulted from the natural selection of small, inherited variations over many thousands of generations, I’ve recently developed a greater appreciation for the religious position that Adam or mankind as we know it did not.

I believe this greater appreciation developed in part by participating in a thought experiment on the other thread where I narrowed my application of the principles of natural selection to all organisms following a lengthy and leisurely evacuation of Eden after the Fall. I did this in an effort to understand where the First Presidency (as quoted in the thread) might have been coming from. If Adam were the last to go, he would be affected the least. The other hominids were either that way in the garden, leaving at large intervals accounting for the fossil record, or left early enough to evolve and thereby account for the fossil record.

So if the First Presidency issued a statement that Adam arose from natural selection, I would just re-expand my view. It’s a working view anyway, without much personal investment in it, so my testimony and covenants don’t hinge on it one way or the other.

[altersteve]

I think it's a very healthy exercise for many members to consider what their reaction would be if a particular controversial historical/doctrinal element would be officially strongly reaffirmed or readjusted using the specific language of new revelation. During my Church membership, I've changed my paradigm several times. In some cases to more 'doctrinally liberal' views, and in others, surprisingly more 'doctrinally conservative'. I am convinced that as part of a Church founded on living revelation, and as guided by my studies and heeding the promptings of the spirit, I am not finished with my paradigm being shaken, alterered, and strengthened in the process.

Such is the beauty of continuing revelation.

The Church has always emphasized the importance of progressing and learning, but it seems to me like many Mormons are hesitant to step out of their comfort zones to consider new ideas. I know that applies to all people, but it seems to be very prevalent among Latter-day Saints. I hope this stubborn attitude starts changing soon. So I think this is a great thread.

[mfbukowski]

nackhadlow

If this is a derail, let me know and I will cease and desist immediately.

But it might also be interesting to discuss the hypothetical, for we who believe in Darwinian evolution, that the church comes out and very clearly condemns Darwinian evolution.

I would not be troubled for at least two reasons which come immediately to mind, the first being that though I believe in evolution, I am not sure that Darwin got it completely right, and though I do not believe in "Intelligent Design" as it is presently constituted, I think the transformation of species from one to another was a divinely directed plan to populate all ecological niches on earth and intended to culminate in mankind, and later types of beings which we now would call "exalted".

Secondly, I think that science has nothing to do with religion and I would view any present Proclamation against evolution as a misunderstanding of that fact, and in the same category as other statements by other General Authorities which many of us who believe in revelation reject now as "non-doctrinal".

I think such a declaration would be a disastrous public relations nightmare, but it wouldn't affect my testimony.

But if you don't want to expand in that direction, I will shut up!

[mfbukowski]

So if the First Presidency issued a statement that Adam arose from natural selection, I would just re-expand my view. It’s a working view anyway, without much personal investment in it, so my testimony and covenants don’t hinge on it one way or the other.

Looks like we're meeting in the middle on this one, you coming from one side and me from the other.

[CV75]

Looks like we're meeting in the middle on this one, you coming from one side and me from the other.

Goodness gracious! For the sake of discussion then we just have to become rabid!

[mfbukowski]

Goodness gracious! For the sake of discussion then we just have to become rabid!

<froth froth, grr grr>

[cinepro]

This thread is for those who feel that the belief in evolution is a terrible, horrible, no-good very bad thing based on current doctrinal/scriptural understanding to share how you feel it would effect your Church life, beliefs, and worship if, hypothetically, the Church came out with a proclamation this next conference declaring that, while affirming the eternal divinity and pre-mortality of Man's spirit, the Lord has confirmed through revelation new light that the physical bodies of mankind did in fact biologically evolve in line with the findings of Darwinian Evolution.

Do you feel this would you allow this to change your personal position on evolution? If not, why?

How would this change your view of scripture?

How would this change your view of modern prophets?

How would this change your view of the Atonement?

How would this change your view of Jesus Christ?

How would this change your commitment to your Church membership?

While I believe in evolution, I believe that this belief contradicts the teachings and doctrines of the Church (as expressed by the scriptures and Church leaders in official talks and current Church publications). So I would be very, very happy by such a proclamation and would consider it a huge step forward for everyone in the Church (and I would no doubt inadvertantly shout "Yesssss!" and pump my fist in the air if such were presented in conference).

[David T]

While I appreciate the comments of those from the other side of the fence, I'd prefer other such comments be reserved for a different thread if they wish to do so. I think it is a significantly different perspective when one is in the category of intellectual minority who is finally vindicated, and one who is of the doctrinal majority feeling they are striving against the popular wicked philosophies of men...only to then have what they were piously assaulting ending up being something they now would feel needed to be changed.

It's the difference between vindication of feeling that you were right all along, and feeling that your faithful defenses that often set you up for ridicule in the face of the world were now, well, mistaken. Feelings of defeat, rather than a victory, perhaps. Someone who, after the announcmeent of the revelation would not be in the position of fist pumping and shouting, "Finally!", but in the position of Elder McConkie, who said essentially, regarding his firm statements that blacks would never get the priesthood before the millennium, "I was wrong, Brigham Young was wrong, and we spoke without the light of the new revelation. Forget what we said before that."

I want to hear from the people who wouldn't be immediately fist-pumping, who would not be having their already-held beliefs justified, but who would find their strongly defended beliefs now, perhaps for the first time, no longer in the realm of standard accepted orthodoxy. Those who could view themselves as Paul, having one time faithfully and piously attacking the principle of Evolution as being against God's will, and now had a vision declaring that their crusdade, while well intentioned, was not in line with revealed Truth.

I do appreciate the thoughts, though. Hopefully this post makes it clearer who I'm looking for, and from what perspective.

Edited January 19, 2012 by nackhadlow

[katherine the great]

This is a great exercsise. I hope you don't mind my paticipating even though I don't have a black-and-view on the issue.

If the definition for Darwinian Evolution that we’re to be using is basically that all organisms resulted from the natural selection of small, inherited variations over many thousands of generations, I’ve recently developed a greater appreciation for the religious position that Adam or mankind as we know it did not.

Thank you for a thoughtful and polite answer.

[Judd]

It wouldn't change anything. But, then again, I don't reject (human) evolution as the answer to how mankind got here for religious purposes, I reject it for other reasons.

[Flyonthewall]

While I don't outright reject evolution for animals, I do believe that evolution for man is not true. If the First Presidency came out and stated that evolution was used for man, then I would have to rely on my faith in the First Presidency to accept it.

It would definately change my outlook on being a son of God. Son of a monkey just doesn't have the same ring.

[Lightbearer]

Do you feel this would you allow this to change your personal position on evolution? If not, why?

If the Prophet were to declare it such, I suppose I could accept it. However there would be a problem explaining how this could be so in light of past teachings. How could there have been no death before the fall if this theory were accepted? What possible justification could be given for taking such a position? What is the need to justify our faith to fit in line with so-called scientific theories?

What would the fall of Adam really mean? Just a meaningless parable? Or what of the atonement of Christ? Did Christ really overcome death? If death has always existed in the world then what does it mean that this earth shall be renewed to receive it's paradisical glory? Was this earth created as a Terrestrial world as has been taught in the church for years? If death always existed, then did sin always exist on earth too? So unless these questions could be addressed I cannot give an intelligent response to your other questions.I doubt there could ever be such a proclamation without more revelation on the creation and to explain and justify such a drastic proclamation. It would be earthshaking in it's scope if such became a teaching of the Church, I am sure critics and intellectuals would rejoice, but I do not think there would be such a great rejoicing sound if the opposite proclamation was made (although I believe it has been already made clear) what would they say if a clear proclamation of the church's position was made? How would they answer the same questions?

[David T]

I want to thank those who have been answering, and remind potential further participants that this isn't the thread to attempt to answer and debate the questions and thoughts and concerns raised as hypothetical responses, but rather just a place for them to be expressed.

Thanks, Lightbearer.I appreciate it.

[Rob Osborn]

Do you feel this would you allow this to change your personal position on evolution? If not, why?

How would this change your view of scripture?

How would this change your view of modern prophets?

How would this change your view of the Atonement?

How would this change your view of Jesus Christ?

How would this change your commitment to your Church membership?

I am firmly against Darwinian evolution. If the prophet were to say this Darwinian evolution is true then i would state that either He or the church is incorect. My view of the scripture would remain unchanged- I can interpret them how I see fit to. My view of modern prophest would be like losing a favorite toy- totally bummed out over their lack of faith! My view of the atonement as I now see it would remain unchanged. Same with how I see Christ- unchanged. I don't see a prophet making a statement on evolution- one way or the other effecting my membership.

Why I am firmly against Darwinian evolution is taken firsthand from what i see to be empiracle evidence outside of anything found in scripture or quoted by Holy prophet. The mathmatical improbability in my mind already outweighs what someone would supposedly reveals. I guess what I am saying is that when you add it all up together, my beliefs are found within the realms of physical evidence on this matter and not on what someone may reveal or say to be true. It would kind of be like the prophet coming out and saying that " all males are actualy females". Of course I have the physical evidence to prove him otherwise and he couldn't convince me otherwise. At that point I would know he was speaking as a man or I would judge him to be speaking as a man and not as the prophet. There are truths i have found myself about the gospel independent of what prophets themselves have said. In my mind I am sometimes at odds with how I see the gospel and what a prophet from time to time might say. I am more inclined at those times to trust my own judgment all the while not discounting their actual credibility as a prophet.

[The Nehor]

This thread is for those who feel that the belief in evolution is a terrible, horrible, no-good very bad thing based on current doctrinal/scriptural understanding to share how you feel it would effect your Church life, beliefs, and worship if, hypothetically, the Church came out with a proclamation this next conference declaring that, while affirming the eternal divinity and pre-mortality of Man's spirit, the Lord has confirmed through revelation new light that the physical bodies of mankind did in fact biologically evolve in line with the findings of Darwinian Evolution.

Not for me then. Well, I'll answer anyways. My response would be to eagerly await more then just that vague pronouncement. How does it fit with my current theory? Support? Destroy? Give new insight?

Do you feel this would you allow this to change your personal position on evolution? If not, why?

Not really. Might expand it a bit.

How would this change your view of scripture?

Not at all.

How would this change your view of modern prophets?

How would this change your view of the Atonement?

How would this change your view of Jesus Christ?

How would this change your commitment to your Church membership?

All not at all.

While I believe in evolution, I believe that this belief contradicts the teachings and doctrines of the Church (as expressed by the scriptures and Church leaders in official talks and current Church publications). So I would be very, very happy by such a proclamation and would consider it a huge step forward for everyone in the Church (and I would no doubt inadvertantly shout "Yesssss!" and pump my fist in the air if such were presented in conference).

If you were near me and you did that I would ask you to please be quiet, hoping the Prophet is about to teach more on the subject.

But it might also be interesting to discuss the hypothetical, for we who believe in Darwinian evolution, that the church comes out and very clearly condemns Darwinian evolution.

I would not be troubled for at least two reasons which come immediately to mind, the first being that though I believe in evolution, I am not sure that Darwin got it completely right, and though I do not believe in "Intelligent Design" as it is presently constituted, I think the transformation of species from one to another was a divinely directed plan to populate all ecological niches on earth and intended to culminate in mankind, and later types of beings which we now would call "exalted".

Secondly, I think that science has nothing to do with religion and I would view any present Proclamation against evolution as a misunderstanding of that fact, and in the same category as other statements by other General Authorities which many of us who believe in revelation reject now as "non-doctrinal".

I think such a declaration would be a disastrous public relations nightmare, but it wouldn't affect my testimony.

But if you don't want to expand in that direction, I will shut up!

I find this interesting. I would just remember Joseph Smith's warning that he could get members to endure anything for the gospel but once he said something that contradicted their traditions they would go to pieces. Then I would make sure not to go to pieces and just accept that the world is an odder place then I suspected and revel in that a little bit. I like weird things.

I honestly half-expect that when Jesus returns at the Second Coming in fire and glory and gives his promised revelations about ALL things and has promised that NOTHING shall be withheld that some LDS members will scream "Blasphemy!" from the back row while I am feverishly taking notes. I expect I will have to hit them on the back of the head to get them to shut up. I suspect my violence will ruin the Millenium.

Sorry everyone in advance.

[mfbukowski]

I find this interesting. I would just remember Joseph Smith's warning that he could get members to endure anything for the gospel but once he said something that contradicted their traditions they would go to pieces. Then I would make sure not to go to pieces and just accept that the world is an odder place then I suspected and revel in that a little bit. I like weird things.

I honestly half-expect that when Jesus returns at the Second Coming in fire and glory and gives his promised revelations about ALL things and has promised that NOTHING shall be withheld that some LDS members will scream "Blasphemy!" from the back row while I am feverishly taking notes. I expect I will have to hit them on the back of the head to get them to shut up. I suspect my violence will ruin the Millenium.

Sorry everyone in advance.

I have lived too long to be too sure about anything. Except my testimony.

Edited January 19, 2012 by mfbukowski