Depression, Mental Breakdown, Etc., Lack Of Faith In God?

[TrueBlue?]

Depends on what type of depression one is talking about. Some of the most service oriented (in the right way ) people I know have issues with chronic depression. For some the cause is likely a genetic tendency, some others I know have chronic illness, often connected with depression.

I am not a doctor, do I don't really understand much about the chemical imbalances that are involved. My stepmother is going through a 10 year long decade of depression that she has been medicating, yet still depressed. My wife went through an 9 year depressive stated which she medicated. She turned into a zombie while on Celexa. Very addictive. She never stopped being depressed on it. She slept most of the time and became even more consumed with herself and her depression when she was awake. Granted Celexa helped both, my step mother and wife for the first 6 months but then the only way it worked is if their doctors raised the dosage, which can legally only go so high.

After seeing that the drug wasn't helping my wife anymore we both agreed she would stop the drug. After several months of weening and some really really hard withdrawals she was finally able to beat it with the Lord's help. She has come back to life. My wife is back. Now that she seemed alive again we started out finding a way to solve the depression which started the whole process.

I was talking to my Father about it, who is still working with my step mother who has not stopped taking the medicine. He explained to me that there are two types of psychological major issues facing the most people. That is depression, and bi polar which is a form of schizophrenia. The fist issue is depression. This is a lack of love of others more than yourself. Schizophrenia is lack of trust in others which is usually a lack of trust in the Lord.

How can one be in a constant state of depression if they are not engrossed in themselves all the time. Woe is me. How can I see me if my eye is toward others. Yes people get depressed over a situation or event. I am talking about constant depression. I don't mean to be offensive by saying this, but constant depression is a selfish state of being. I have seen it in my wife. Me and my wife took my Father's advice and we both turned our eye toward others. Anyone, our kids, neighbors, people I work with and loved them. I tell you the truth, that it works. Love and trust of the Lord and others will in time eliminate any mistrust or emptiness one feels inside. How these two tie together, we always put ourselves in a vulnerable position when we love, and in order to love a real love we must trust. The two go hand in hand.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

This is a lack of love of others more than yourself. Schizophrenia is lack of trust in others which is usually a lack of trust in the Lord.

TrueBlue, I understand the concept behind what youar e saying about turning to the Lord. It's true, it helps. But Schizophrenia is not about a lack of trust. Someone who is clinically schizophrenic can certainly improve by looking outwards, but there is much that can only be done through medication, counseling, and even in extreme cases... detention. My previous ward had within it's boundaries the state mental hospital, which had a voluntary housing area where people who knew they needed help would go and live. This was in Utah, so many were members. While some were also bad people, the vast majority were extremely loving, often neglecting their own basic needs to help others. They were extremely empathetic. And some saw non-existant things. Others would be your best friend one moment and then literally snap and pull a knife out the next to kill themselves or you. Some heard voices in their heads. For some, it was more subtle, but they were still a little down the path that leads to the more extreme.

It is erroneous to simply separate people into the sane and the insane. There is rarely a magic light switch that if off, makes people that way. It's more like the dimmer switch for a light. Based on various chemical and genetic factors, you may be only a little way or all the way down the road to a particular insanity. It does not matter if you are functioning fine in other ways, or if you help others and devote yourself to the Lord. That can help, but the very real beast within themselves is still there, one that can consume them entirely, sometimes with nothing they can do about it.

I do agree lots of people with depression are not helped by meds because it is their mindset, not their mind, that is wrong. Often it's a result of their upbringing or other methods of being taught or not taught about people and the world around them. Unrealistic expectations can lead to constant depression. But please do not matter of factually diagnose people with depression (which, for the record, can also be from a lack of love for yourself, not of others) or schizophrenia as simply lacking trust or love that can be fixed by turning to others. The church has repeatedly said this is not the case.

[Vanguard]

In Corinthians we read that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to handle. So, if people break down, go into depression about things, does that indicate a lack of faith or trust in God? Does it mean weakness? The scriptures in Hebrews, BoM, D&C, all talk of God trying His people, chastisement and the like, so does it mean that those that succumb are lacking?

I am not poking fun at people on this, I am being serious. My own long fights with matters I have faced and am now facing and from what I have seen in other people just got me wondering.

Yes, it does indicate a lack of faith and trust. The issue is, however, that we ALL are limited in this way. No one nails the ideal but rather we all try to approximate said ideal based on the hand we have been dealt in this life. Through the prism of your capacities, you may be accomplishing all our Father-Iin-Heaven would expect of you. Also, I interpret the promise in Corinthians a bit differently as the conventional interpretation leaves me wanting. You will not be tempted beyond what your individual capacity can tolerate. This doesn't mean you won't lose your testimony for a time nor does it mean you will never commit grievious actions in this life if you just stay faithful. It only means that you will never lose that one thing your Father-In-Heaven expects you to retain. The problem is that I have no idea what that is for you as we are all individuals unlike anyone else. Does that make sense? Again, we all succumb and therefore are lacking.

[Storm Rider]

In Corinthians we read that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to handle. So, if people break down, go into depression about things, does that indicate a lack of faith or trust in God? Does it mean weakness? The scriptures in Hebrews, BoM, D&C, all talk of God trying His people, chastisement and the like, so does it mean that those that succumb are lacking?

I am not poking fun at people on this, I am being serious. My own long fights with matters I have faced and am now facing and from what I have seen in other people just got me wondering.

Mental health is a very complex issue. I can address depression, but those other more serious mental health issues such as schizophrinia are beyond me. There are certainly things we can do to ameliorate depression: maintain good health, good diet, and consistent exercise. Good health includes attentive behavior towards treating mental health issues. However, doing these things does not illiminate the possibility of depressive episodes, but does allow us to deal more effectively when episodes arise.

Ignoring these three areas is done at our own peril and we then become responsbile for the results. It is similar to learning truth; we don't become responsible for truths of which we are ignorant, but when we know what is true and ignore it, then we intentially ignore the will of God for our lives.

[TrueBlue?]

TrueBlue, I understand the concept behind what youar e saying about turning to the Lord. It's true, it helps. But Schizophrenia is not about a lack of trust. Someone who is clinically schizophrenic can certainly improve by looking outwards, but there is much that can only be done through medication, counseling, and even in extreme cases... detention. My previous ward had within it's boundaries the state mental hospital, which had a voluntary housing area where people who knew they needed help would go and live. This was in Utah, so many were members. While some were also bad people, the vast majority were extremely loving, often neglecting their own basic needs to help others. They were extremely empathetic. And some saw non-existant things. Others would be your best friend one moment and then literally snap and pull a knife out the next to kill themselves or you. Some heard voices in their heads. For some, it was more subtle, but they were still a little down the path that leads to the more extreme.

It is erroneous to simply separate people into the sane and the insane. There is rarely a magic light switch that if off, makes people that way. It's more like the dimmer switch for a light. Based on various chemical and genetic factors, you may be only a little way or all the way down the road to a particular insanity. It does not matter if you are functioning fine in other ways, or if you help others and devote yourself to the Lord. That can help, but the very real beast within themselves is still there, one that can consume them entirely, sometimes with nothing they can do about it.

I do agree lots of people with depression are not helped by meds because it is their mindset, not their mind, that is wrong. Often it's a result of their upbringing or other methods of being taught or not taught about people and the world around them. Unrealistic expectations can lead to constant depression. But please do not matter of factually diagnose people with depression (which, for the record, can also be from a lack of love for yourself, not of others) or schizophrenia as simply lacking trust or love that can be fixed by turning to others. The church has repeatedly said this is not the case.

I do agree with you in extreme cases. I will not discount the genetic factors in some cases. Like I said I am not a doctor. Yet I do believe that this epidemic of depression that has befallen our nation where 1 out of every 3 persons is clinically depressed, or bi polar ( which is the form of schizophrenia that I was referring to) is questionable. I truly believe that 1/3 of our nation is truly depressed because of genetic factors. I would venture to say that maybe 1/3 of those who are diagnosed depressed are really beyond help. To those that are truly unable to function or a more solid case of schizophrenia outside the bounds of mood swings, I agree doctors need to be involved. The same with any genetic abnormality whether it be cancer or thyroid problems, doctors need to be involved. I should have made myself more clear and specific to what I was pointing to.

I have noticed though that the more medicine is created for depression or bi polar afflictions, the higher the rate of depression seems to go up in conjunction with a lack of religion in general in our society.

[TrueBlue?]

I do agree with you in extreme cases. I will not discount the genetic factors in some cases. Like I said I am not a doctor. Yet I do believe that this epidemic of depression that has befallen our nation where 1 out of every 3 persons is clinically depressed, or bi polar ( which is the form of schizophrenia that I was referring to) is questionable. I truly believe that 1/3 of our nation is truly depressed because of genetic factors. I would venture to say that maybe 1/3 of those who are diagnosed depressed are really beyond help. To those that are truly unable to function or a more solid case of schizophrenia outside the bounds of mood swings, I agree doctors need to be involved. The same with any genetic abnormality whether it be cancer or thyroid problems, doctors need to be involved. I should have made myself more clear and specific to what I was pointing to.

I have noticed though that the more medicine is created for depression or bi polar afflictions, the higher the rate of depression seems to go up in conjunction with a lack of religion in general in our society.

Correction, I do not believe that 1/3 of the nation is clinically depressed.

[Bernard Gui]

In Corinthians we read that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to handle. So, if people break down, go into depression about things, does that indicate a lack of faith or trust in God? Does it mean weakness? The scriptures in Hebrews, BoM, D&C, all talk of God trying His people, chastisement and the like, so does it mean that those that succumb are lacking?

Absolutely not. However, depression can make you feel you are unworthy or lack faith. Those kind of thoughts do not come from God. If you are feeling that way, resist them with all the strength you have. They are not true.

Bernard

[KevinG]

We need to be careful how this is taught. More than a few times I've seen sisters leave the RS room weeping after sister so-and-sunshine-so gave a talk about how nobody would be depressed if they just picked themselves up and had faith.

Faith can help but it is not an instant cure for many. Treating depression like a head cold can be very, very hurtful to those who suffer real clinical depression and have feelings of unworthiness because of it.

[thesometimesaint]

There are no "Silver Bullets" no magic cures. Meds help, but often it takes years of trial and error to figure out which one(s) work the best, and those that don't work at all. The biggest problem is that once they start to feel better, they believe they don't need the meds anymore and so relapse. "Talk therapy" works as an important ingredient in any treatment plan. But again there is no magic cures, and it has nothing to do with whether you're a good person or not. We wouldn't tell a person suffering with a headcold to cancer that they were just being selfish and thinking too much of themselves. Don't do it to the mentally ill.

Edited December 11, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Bernard Gui]

Amen and amen. If you are depressed, see your doctor right now. There is no need to suffer. See your bishop and seek priesthood blessings. Rally your family and friends. If you know someone who is depressed, help them, don't condemn them or suggest they lack faith. Would you say that to someone with a serious disease or injury? There is help and hope.

Bernard

We need to be careful how this is taught. More than a few times I've seen sisters leave the RS room weeping after sister so-and-sunshine-so gave a talk about how nobody would be depressed if they just picked themselves up and had faith.

Faith can help but it is not an instant cure for many. Treating depression like a head cold can be very, very hurtful to those who suffer real clinical depression and have feelings of unworthiness because of it.

[Bernard Gui]

Will someone say, "Amen"?

Bernard

There are no "Silver Bullets" no magic cures. Meds help, but often it takes years of trial and error to figure out which one(s) work the best, and those that don't work at all. The biggest problem is that once they start to feel better, they believe they don't need the meds anymore and so relapse. "Talk therapy" works as an important ingredient in any treatment plan. But again there is no magic cures, and it has nothing to do with whether you're a good person or not. We wouldn't tell a person suffering with a headcold to cancer that they were just being selfish and thinking too much of themselves. Don't do it to the mentally ill.

[BCSpace]

In Corinthians we read that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to handle. So, if people break down, go into depression about things, does that indicate a lack of faith or trust in God? Does it mean weakness? The scriptures in Hebrews, BoM, D&C, all talk of God trying His people, chastisement and the like, so does it mean that those that succumb are lacking?

I am not poking fun at people on this, I am being serious. My own long fights with matters I have faced and am now facing and from what I have seen in other people just got me wondering.

I think most lack of faith in God and His Church right now is based on a perception that there is a lack of miracles (which is a vicious self-fulfilling cycle) and the allowing of tares to grow up with the wheat (no perceived punishment for sin, those who believe in principles contrary to the doctrine of the Church not censured, etc.). These are indeed trying times. You have to go back to the roots of your testimony. Think on what it was that allowed you to gain that testimony in the first place and replicate those experiences to rebuild your foundation.

One shouldn't stop fighting for what is right, but one will certainly have to humble oneself and accept that God is ultimately in control. If one is unable to do this, the the parable of the Sower has done it's work.

Edited December 11, 2011 by BCSpace

[Nominee]

Will someone say, "Amen"?

Bernard

Amen, brother.

[Judd]

The challenge with depression is that everyone has experienced the symptoms of depression to one degree or another. Obviously there are numerous things we can do in our life that contributes to our misery and it's important not to over pathologize and mistake any kind of depressive symptom for genuine pathology, but it's also important to understand that mild and moderate depression are much different than major depression. The idea is exacerbated by numerous factors -- for instance 70% of psychiatric prescriptions are written by non-psychiatrists. Primary care physicians write a bulk of those prescriptions with their only formal training in psychiatry being a 4-6 week clerkship in their third year of medical school. For others that fill in for primary care physicians -- nurse practitioners and physician assistants -- they don't have any formal training in psychiatry. The point I'm getting at is that many, many prescriptions for psychiatric medicines are being written by people who are not considered mental health providers. So it isn't hard for someone who, as you would assume, has problems of depression due to lifestyle be given an antidepressant in a primary care setting. This isn't a slam on primary care physicians because they have an incredibly difficult job. They have to be well versed in every specialty enough so to know management and treatment, as well as diagnosis, of so many different things and also know when to refer something to a another specialist.

On the other hand schizophrenia in no way relates to a lack of trust in the Savior. Obviously individuals with schizophrenia may struggle with those issues independent of their illness, but it is not the underlying cause of their problem. Schizophrenia would be much more along the lines of Down Syndrome -- not that they are similar in manifestation, but more so that you would never tell someone with Down Syndrome to just snap out of it and exercise some faith. Hearing about schizophrenia and seeing schizophrenia are two different things. Seeing someone in psychosis who can't even hold a sensible conversation, or is having hallucinations of satellites over their head, or ends up opening fire at a concert because they believe the band was stealing songs that the individual had written, will all quickly make people realize that psychosocial issues are not the root of their problem, much like the 80 year old woman in the hospital because of a motor vehicle accident who has lost so much blood that she's delirious wouldn't be assumed to have an acute attack of faithlessness.

But I understand the underlying sentiment. There's a very large push within the field a mental health to de-stigmatize, which results in explaining a lot of poor behaviors as having to do with "disease". So yes, there are things regarding depression that can have a large behavioral and/or faith component, much like there are many things that contribute to the onset and course of type 2 diabetes, but so also there are many varying degrees of depression and mental illness that fit more into the form of something like cancer rather than the more (largely) preventable problems of hyperlipidemia or diabetes. Other issues that were mentioned, such as bipolar (if they truly are bipolar, which is often misdiagnosed) are just as real as schizophrenia. Currently bipolar and schizophrenia would probably account for 90% of all admissions to state psychiatric hospitals due to how hard they can be to manage in some individuals and how debilitating they can be (where they are either a harm to themselves or others or are so disabled they can't take care of themselves -- not just simply are lazy).

[thesometimesaint]

Judd:

Things are neither a bleak as we fear, nor as a rosey as we wish.

[Sine Saw Square]

Double amen, Bernard.

[KevinG]

Anybody else here use these boards as escape behavior?

[Duncan]

Anybody else here use these boards as escape behavior?

kinda! mind you when I here I am not at work and I work odd hours. I neglected to add from an earlier post, luvya too Daddy G!

Edited December 14, 2011 by Duncan

[KevinG]

How are you enjoying our Hockey Team? I expect good things now that you can recruit local talent.

[Duncan]

How are you enjoying our Hockey Team? I expect good things now that you can recruit local talent.

ha! they won tonite over the Wild! I think they have won 14/30 so room for improvement. Well, our local talent is on other teams thus far but tomorrow is another day!

[Calm]

Anybody else here use these boards as escape behavior?

Always.

[mercyngrace]

Will someone say, "Amen"?

Bernard

Bernard, If you want feedback from the pews you need to use the proper phrasing. It's

Can I get an A-men?

(Emphasis on the "A".)

Say it right, and the soprano sisters on the front row are guaranteed to shout "Yes! Lord Jesus!" and one may even swoon and hold her chest. It's like an auto-response... I promise!

[lachrymolotov]

Mental depression can have a spiritual origin. The longing of the spirit to find something that is eternal and permanent can lead to very severe depression, if that longing is not satisfied. Many who are driven to suicide have been suffering from this kind of depression.

CFR

Mental illness is a misleading term in that there is no mind-body duality. This might be a point of contention in this forum, but the reality is that no one has ever described how human biological processes are affected upon by anything "spiritual." On the other hand, there is voluminous evidence that shows when physical damage to the brain occurs, mental processes are affected. Thoughts, experiences, memories, behaviors... these are all the result of physical processes that we can manipulate in innumerable ways.

The strange thing about human experience is that when we feel something, we generate explanations for how we feel after the feeling comes. These explanations are often inaccurate because individuals are not actually aware of all of the unconscious processes that go on to generate their emotional state. Basically, people often find the wrong scapegoat for the way they feel. This isn't just true for depression, it is also true for happiness. People are notoriously unable to best determine what will make them happy. If you actually measure happiness outside of terms of material wealth, many cultures living at subsistence level are far happier than the average American.

That is not to say there aren't often good reasons for depression that have nothing to do with any kind of chemical imbalance. If you live in poverty and are surrounded by people who constantly create drama and violence, you probably have a very good reason to be depressed and the only thing that will change it is by changing your situation in life. Pills do not really help much when it comes to doing things that will turn your life around.

If you are a slave to a 30 year mortgage and you hate your job, where you live, and the people in your life. Prozac is not going to help the reasons you are depressed.

Of course, if you find yourself in these situations, and you are among the 99% of us who have no idea what will make us happy, then God often seems like a perfect solution. The truth is that people who turn to new religions aren't finding the happiness or contentment they seek from religion. What actually helps people are close communities and strong relationships. It is irrelevant if you are in a Osho hippie commune in Oregon, a snake-handling Pentecostal congregation, or a sustainable farming community of Atheists in New Zealand. Strong social ties and their consequences are one of the largest factors in determining happiness.

But then, of course, there are the genuinely chemical imbalanced people who really need their medication. Mostly, anti-depressants aren't for long-term use. For most people, just getting "over the hump" of a really bad time, a few months is all that is useful. If you look at the studies that aren't funded by the people making the drugs, most traditional anti-depressants are actually less effective than placebos (which indicates they can cause depression) and have far more side-effects. For most people, that's all the drugs are... placebos. It is a very interesting thing... the placebo effect... and it is why it is easy to attribute faith or other forms of snake oil to the curing of depression.

There are actually a number of functions that being slightly depressed serves the species. People who are slightly depressed tend to be smarter than happy people. Happy people are at a disadvantage when it comes to intelligence... another strange thing that is difficult to measure and quantify which brings me to...

Psychology is tainted by culture. We specify these disorders for when people are not "normal," and normal can often be defined by some of the scariest, most vocal people in society. Just because some book or some group of doctors says that you have symptoms of this or that, does not actually mean you have that disorder. Autism is a great example, since many depressed people can have the same exact symptoms, but how do we know they aren't just depressed? Because of symptoms? Because we looked into their brain?

It's all a very gray area.

I ramble a bit about this because I think depression is still widely misunderstood. If you are a little depressed, it could be that there is nothing wrong with you. Maybe the one you loved died and you know that you will think about them everyday for the rest of your life. Well, wouldn't there be something wrong with you if you WEREN'T depressed about that? Life can be harsh and if you don't feel the severity of that harshness every once in a while, there is either something wrong with you, or your life is more blessed than the 99%.

Depression has been widely studied and lack of faith in a higher power is not really a factor. A lack of social support is the most potent contributing factor outside of things that are more biological in nature... like health problems, insomnia, and being female. Poverty is a contributing factor, as well, but... as I said... if your life is a mess and exceedingly difficult, there is something wrong with you if you aren't depressed. Sure, you can take the high road of the Buddhist and end all suffering by eliminating all desire, but that doesn't fix a lot of the other related problems.

There is no panacea when it comes to the vagaries of life. So, if you desperately need an answer, try a multifaceted approach and start that approach by getting off the Internet and making friends.

[thesometimesaint]

I suggest that you read the DSM for just a few of the ways that mental illness is not caused by an organic agent. Yes I am a Psychiatric Social Worker, albeit a retired one.

[lachrymolotov]

Organic as in carbon based?