Depression, Mental Breakdown, Etc., Lack Of Faith In God?

[thesometimesaint]

Not necessarily. It could be chemically organic. But it could not. The injestion of Mercury or Lead can produced psychological symptoms. Electrial shock while not organic in the chemical sense does produce profound organic symptomology. Plus; There are plenty of mental illnesses that we know of no cause of.

[lachrymolotov]

Well, definitions of mental illnesses can be tricky. The same problems in the same parts of the brain manifest themselves differently across different cultures. Even people's perceptions of their own mental illness plays a role. I'm still not certain of your definition of organic. Chances are, if something has been identified as a mental illness, someone has stuck a person with it in a tomography scan.

Are you saying that there are mental illnesses that are caused by something "spiritual"? And that you mean "spiritual" when you are saying "not organic"?

Just because we do not know the cause of a mental illness, should we then attribute its cause to something metaphysical?

[mrmandias]

To the extent depression has a religious dimension, i think it usually represents too much faith in God.

That is, people decide that low spirits, feelings of failure, and other kinds of melancholia are themselvees sinful and that they should be able to get rid of them by willpower through God's grace. Which doesn't work, so the depression solidifies.

Viewing the depression as a cross to bear, on the other hand, tends to reduce the depression. Like in the dominical paradoxes, where in seeking something you lose it, and in not seeking you find.

[KevinG]

To the extent depression has a religious dimension, i think it usually represents too much faith in God.

That is, people decide that low spirits, feelings of failure, and other kinds of melancholia are themselvees sinful and that they should be able to get rid of them by willpower through God's grace. Which doesn't work, so the depression solidifies.

Viewing the depression as a cross to bear, on the other hand, tends to reduce the depression. Like in the dominical paradoxes, where in seeking something you lose it, and in not seeking you find.

I found that to be the case, especially when my depression was linked to a heart valve condition. It was a relief to know that there really was something a bit off that had nothing to do with being "crazy" or "faithless" and that some days I just needed extra rest, better nutrition and a mild anti-depressant.

Spirituality or lack thereof had nothing to do with it. In fact humbling myself to go to the Doctor and admit the struggle was a matter of being spiritually mature in and of itself.

In short: Go ahead admit you are crazy - its the only sane thing to do!

[wenglund]

In Corinthians we read that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to handle. So, if people break down, go into depression about things, does that indicate a lack of faith or trust in God? Does it mean weakness? The scriptures in Hebrews, BoM, D&C, all talk of God trying His people, chastisement and the like, so does it mean that those that succumb are lacking?

I am not poking fun at people on this, I am being serious. My own long fights with matters I have faced and am now facing and from what I have seen in other people just got me wondering.

To me, depression is caused by an admixture of chemical/hormonal imbalances, health problem, cognitive distortions, poor/toxic environmental conditions (particularly at home and at work), and life tragedies.

While religious faith can lower the risk or exacerbation of depression and enable people to cope and to some respect climb out of their depression, the existence of depression is not indicative of a lack of faith. It may even be a test of great faith.

I speak as one who suffered through nearly a decade and a half of deep depression.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited December 15, 2011 by wenglund

[Duncan]

I have heard that poverty causes depression as well, not a temporary situation, but prolonged

[KevinG]

I have heard that poverty causes depression as well, not a temporary situation, but prolonged

I have had to learn to fight the urge to give up after my layoff. MommyG reminded me that I'm more than a paycheck and that she needs me as a Husband and Father.

I don't think it is the lack of funds as much as the feeling of hopelessness and lack of control that makes poverty so grinding.

[Duncan]

I have had to learn to fight the urge to give up after my layoff. MommyG reminded me that I'm more than a paycheck and that she needs me as a Husband and Father.

I don't think it is the lack of funds as much as the feeling of hopelessness and lack of control that makes poverty so grinding.

I hear you for sure. I know a lady in our stake that was born in the depression, had a brother and dad die in WW2 and was left with her mother and a sister or something and they all worked but got very little as there weren't a lot of jobs for women. She married and then her husband died leaving her with two kids and she later remarried has 8 more and the new husband left her for a younger woman and she remarried again only because she had a place and needed a roomie to pay the rent and an older curmugeonly fellow needed a place to stay and the Bishop told them to get married else they couldn't have the arrangement (they never dated and really didn't know each other) there "marriage" is still there but she has been broke her entire life and I feel for her and I just want her to have something nice for once and not have to be so broke anymore. She has turned into a hoarder or sorts...is what is happening there mentally but not the worst kind of hoarder and i can't says that I blame her for hoarding all her stuff. Hang in there!!

[KevinG]

Hang in there!!

Are you referring to my job search or my fall from the roof?

Thanks either way!

[Duncan]

Are you referring to my job search or my fall from the roof?

Thanks either way!

both!

[Judd]

If you look at the studies that aren't funded by the people making the drugs, most traditional anti-depressants are actually less effective than placebos (which indicates they can cause depression) and have far more side-effects. For most people, that's all the drugs are... placebos. It is a very interesting thing... the placebo effect... and it is why it is easy to attribute faith or other forms of snake oil to the curing of depression.

Mild and moderate depression are very separate from major depression. Mild and moderate depression have, according to some studies, shown to be about as equal as placebo. In any case, I'm not familiar with any study that shows they're less effective than placebo. Still, if that were to be the case, the conclusion could not be drawn that they cause depression because the comparison is a placebo group, not a no-intervention group. Depression, if we're going by DSM definition, is a collection of symptoms and not a single emotion. This is where it gets sticky with definitions that when people make the blanket statement of 'depression' we assume that it's all the same and that its etiology, quality, duration and treatment are the same all across the board when this is not the case, much as the same way cancer is simply an umbrella term and meaningless by itself.

[lachrymolotov]

People who use anti-depressants to treat depression are more likely to relapse than people who do not use anti-depressants. Anti-depressants have been linked to suicides, violence and manic episodes particularly when someone is being careless with dosage. The unpredictable side-effects are what make many of these drugs (and some are much better than others, statistically) less effective than placebos. Not only do they NOT treat depression in most cases, they can cause other problems.

Some people are helped a great deal by using antidepressants, some are harmed (thousands of deaths per year in overdoses, alone), and most might as well be taking a sugar pill. It's a little like religion, I guess.

[wenglund]

It's a little like religion, I guess.

Most anything can be viewed in a highly strained way as supporting one's prejudice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited December 15, 2011 by wenglund

[LeSellers]

Most anything can be viewed in a highly stained way to support one's prejudice.

While I suppose you meant "strained way", your accidental (Freudian) version is insightful.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

There will be thousands of people that will die from prescription drug use this year. There will thousands of people who will die this year from driving a car. There will be thousands of people who die in the bathroom this year. Your point?

[lachrymolotov]

Most anything can be viewed in a highly stained way to support one's prejudice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That sword cuts both ways, buddy.

[lachrymolotov]

There will be thousands of people that will die from prescription drug use this year. There will thousands of people who will die this year from driving a car. There will be thousands of people who die in the bathroom this year. Your point?

The point is that anti-depressants have been misrepresented in an irresponsible way that has only profit in mind. The lesson to take away from the conversation, at large, is that depression is complicated, widespread and not really spiritual in nature.

If you want to dig deeper, you may ask why tobacco and alcohol are legal when they cause far, far, far more deaths than all of the other "illicit" substances combined. The beer companies don't want marijuana to be legal, so they spend millions to make sure it stays illegal. The media claimed a while back that marijuana doesn't make any money for the cartels, yet they burn thousands of tons of it and still haven't made a dent. Drugs are a big business, illegal or legal, and the people behind each are no different. Whatever it takes to make a dollar no matter how many people's lives are ruined.

Another insight you may take away is that whichever drug you may be using, you need to be careful. Not every doctor knows what they are doing when they prescribe something.

Perhaps another point is that our biology is our mind and it can be altered in ever so subtle (and some not so subtle) ways. The mechanisms are complicated and often not perfectly understood, but we can see what goes on to a person's brain when we add various substances to it. We can watch the chain of causality on a number of levels up to the resulting behavior in an individual.

We have no such explanation for any kind of spiritual power. No one has yet to describe how a spirit can interact with human biology to change thoughts or behavior. The best evidence and most reasonable explanation is that such a thing does not exist.

[Judd]

People who use anti-depressants to treat depression are more likely to relapse than people who do not use anti-depressants.

I'd like to see a reference on this. The problem in studying this is the type of study design. If they're looking retrospectively at it it would sure make sense that those requiring anti-depressants (more serious depression) would obviously relapse more often than those not needing medication.

Anti-depressants have been linked to suicides

The reasons for the being multifactorial. Obviously people with major depression are more likely to be both medicated and suicidal. Also, this is typically only found upon initiation of medication, suggesting numerous theories surrounding the 3-6 weeks it takes to have edfect.

violence

Reference?

and manic episodes particularly when someone is being careless with dosage.

Moreso because of misdiagnosis. The main reason someone would be pushed into mania is because of bipolar depression and not unipolar depression (another reason why the idea that depression is depression is depression is false).

I understand your critique that anyone who gets the sniffles walks out of the primary care office with a prescription, but this is a reflection of bad practice and not a reflection on depression, in it's many forms, and the way those forms are treated.

[thesometimesaint]

lachrymolotov:

I've never said it was anything but complicated. I've dealt with clients who multiple axis diagnosis looks more like a Christmas tree than a ladder. Also I've never said it was Spiritual. Spiritual is a religious concept, and not a medical one. However as a clinician spiritual does have relavence in discribing the nonphysical aspects of depression.

From the simple expedient that the "cure" prohabition has worse unintended consequences than the disease. But that doesn't address my point that people will continue to drive cars, and use the bathroom, both fully legal actions, even though thousands will die each year from their use.

ALL drugs need to be used with skill, and appropriate caution. The fact remains that a certain number of people will die from anaphylatic shock this and every year from drug use, and I'm not talking about misuse or abuse.

Nothing is more complicated than the human brain, and how it functions. However we do know somethings about it. So it's not a complete mystery. We of course will learn more and more about it as time goes on. At least I hope so.

Incorrect. You seem to be trying to separate out spirit from the rest of the package. It doesn't work that way. That is simply a variation on the old nature vs nuture arguement. In reality you can't have one without the other.

Ps; There is an old saying that if you put Einstein in closet all you'd get is a smart guy with more hangups than the closet.

Edited December 15, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Kenngo1969]

There will be thousands of people that will die from prescription drug use this year. There will thousands of people who will die this year from driving a car. There will be thousands of people who die in the bathroom this year. Your point?

Avoid the bathroom at all costs! Got it.

[Kenngo1969]

That sword cuts both ways, buddy.

What sort of prejudice did Wade's reply to you exhibit, lachrymolotov?

[lachrymolotov]

I'd like to see a reference on this. The problem in studying this is the type of study design. If they're looking retrospectively at it it would sure make sense that those requiring anti-depressants (more serious depression) would obviously relapse more often than those not needing medication.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=antidepressants+use+relapse+study

Top Ten Legal Drugs Linked to Violence

Moreso because of misdiagnosis. The main reason someone would be pushed into mania is because of bipolar depression and not unipolar depression (another reason why the idea that depression is depression is depression is false).

When you get into levels that approach toxicity, you also get manic episodes even in people who would not otherwise have them.

Spiritual is a religious concept, and not a medical one. However as a clinician spiritual does have relavence in discribing the nonphysical aspects of depression.

What is a nonphysical aspect of depression?

Incorrect. You seem to be trying to separate out spirit from the rest of the package. It doesn't work that way. That is simply a variation on the old nature vs nuture arguement. In reality you can't have one without the other.

Nope, I have never ever ever thought or have been taught that it was strictly nature vs. nurture. However, you can separate out different factors, like genetics, epigenetics, culture, etc.

What I am curious about... particularly when you started using antiquated terms like "organic symptomology"... is what the opposite of "organic" actually is.

[lachrymolotov]

What sort of prejudice did Wade's reply to you exhibit, lachrymolotov?

Wade, specifically? He was obviously intent on finding something that would be cutting and clever because he did not agree. Though, I really was making a statement that everyone harbors prejudices and everyone views the world through a clouded lens. The first step in really understanding anything with any kind of objectivity is to understand what fogs your lens. Only by starting from the stance that you are probably wrong about everything can you actually be right about anything.

[katherine the great]

Depression has been widely studied and lack of faith in a higher power is not really a factor. A lack of social support is the most potent contributing factor outside of things that are more biological in nature... like health problems, insomnia, and being female. Poverty is a contributing factor, as well, but... as I said... if your life is a mess and exceedingly difficult, there is something wrong with you if you aren't depressed. Sure, you can take the high road of the Buddhist and end all suffering by eliminating all desire, but that doesn't fix a lot of the other related problems.

There is no panacea when it comes to the vagaries of life. So, if you desperately need an answer, try a multifaceted approach and start that approach by getting off the Internet and making friends.

I really liked your entire post, but I'm just quoting a part of it. I'm not a psychologist, but I am an anthropology student, and I think you are bang on correct in your views on social support. I've come to believe that the nuclear family has actually had an adverse affect on the human psyche--especially for women. Nuclear families tend to isolate us too much. I think there are many very lonely people in our society that may have had a much better chance at happiness if they had been raised in a large, "in your face", extended family because the odds of them having a relative they can identify with and pattern their life after are much greater when there are many adults active in the child's everyday life--especially if they have lousy parents. Our species is among the very most social of all animals and we are not designed to live solitary or even near solitary lives.

[thesometimesaint]

ktg:

True and false. We are the most social of animals. In fact we get sick and die without it. But each and every one of us experiences life within our own bodiers and minds.