The Other Side Of The Debate...

[LeSellers]

There was some kind of annual dance with 2 colors that had some sort of historical significance to it, maybe that was just my ward/stake.

The Gold and Green Ball was a church-wide practice celebrating the young men'n'women's programs and the honoring of (future) covenants.

The "Master M-Man" and "Golden Gleaner" awards were given for those under age 25(?) who met very high requirements. M-Men and Gleaners were the last groups in the youth programs (under 19s, as I recall), and these higher awards recognized the continued adherence to the goals of the YM/YWMIA program.

Lehi

[Garden Girl]

First, to Robert F. Smith and TSS... I too was a California girl who spent most of my available days on the beach (for which I'm paying today with an annual trip to the dermatologist for a screening... sun block, RV rays... Never heard of them, and every year my skin would become a rich deep golden brown because that was the cool thing to do... sigh).

I have very few issues with the Church... more with individuals... but I do like that the Church has become more open about some historical areas. I applaud the publishing of the JS Papers, etc. And online access to some of the library collections at BYU... and to forums such as this where issues/ideas are more widely discussed...

I'm not a Pollyanna, but I do love our faith... and our people for the most part because we are all striving to do our best and we all fall short. How grateful I am for a Savior.

GG

[Stargazer]

I found it interesting that although the OP was asking for what people liked about the church, some responders actually seemed to think this was one more opportunity to express their negative feelings. Do we not read what the OP is saying before we post, or do we like private interpretations so much that we believe non-sequitors are the highest expression? Reminds me of this comic:

http://www.gocomics.com/getfuzzy/2011/12/04

[CV75]

The Gold and Green Ball was a church-wide practice celebrating the young men'n'women's programs and the honoring of (future) covenants.

The "Master M-Man" and "Golden Gleaner" awards were given for those under age 25(?) who met very high requirements. M-Men and Gleaners were the last groups in the youth programs (under 19s, as I recall), and these higher awards recognized the continued adherence to the goals of the YM/YWMIA program.

Lehi

That must have been it. As a highly self-motivated college student with no history in the youth programs I found it "unusual" at the time.

[Ares]

I found it interesting that although the OP was asking for what people liked about the church, some responders actually seemed to think this was one more opportunity to express their negative feelings. Do we not read what the OP is saying before we post, or do we like private interpretations so much that we believe non-sequitors are the highest expression? Reminds me of this comic:

http://www.gocomics....uzzy/2011/12/04

Th OP asked defenders to share issues and critics to share likes. Either response is OK.

[cinepro]

Critics of the LDS faith: What is your greatest reason to like the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

• Roadshows
  
• Scouting program
  
• Members are generally honest, sociable, and have a sense of humor.
  
• Flexibility in doctrine and practices, so we’re not stuck with polygamy, priesthood ban, or the traveling CES sideshow of “Know Your Religion” forever.
  
• Word of Wisdom
  
• Emphasis on chastity and modesty (even if some people go a little overboard. T-shirts and halter tops are mutually exclusive fashion items, people.)
  
• Prophet-selection process designed so even the nuttiest apostle has their quirky views on politics or doctrine worn down by the advancing years.
  
• Church building program gives tithing members nice chapels, Temples, and shopping malls to enjoy.
  
• And of course, I met my beautiful wife through Church related activities, so to whatever degree I can give credit to the Church for that, it’s a big +.
  

[coolrok7]

I like it when the chuch teaches what the bible teaches!

[Avatar4321]

Defenders of the LDS faith: What is your greatest issue with the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

That we don't live up to the privileges we have a right to.

[Avatar4321]

I like it when the chuch teaches what the bible teaches!

So you like the Church all the time?

[coolrok7]

. . .Defenders of the LDS faith: What is your greatest issue with the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

Critics of the LDS faith: What is your greatest reason to like the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

Please no back handed complements or snide jeers at the other side. Give it a page before you start arguing/defending other posts.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation and participation!

So you like the Church all the time?

Note the juxtaposition of the questions asked. I would be classified as a “critic”.

It’s not to me a matter of liking the church per se as church is the people, not the organization called church in which there are distinctions to be made.

My comment was in keeping with the intent of the question in which I do like it when the church teaches in line with Biblical teaching which is a positive. There are the cultural aspects, family values that come to mind as well. I don’t hate Mormons nor anyone else for that matter.

I necessarily like the people just not always the doctrine as I don’t find agreement with Biblical doctrine/teaching all the time (my perspective of course).

A comment that was made by me in a similar request to the thread op back in ZLMB when it was active:

There are numerous things mentioned throughout the time I’ve been here in ZLMB (since 12/00 by invitation) concerning the “good” things Mormons accomplish. Latter-day Saints are a very industrious and dedicated people and deserve credit for the things they do right. I have no problem with others or even myself giving credit where credit is due:

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things; and the God of peace shall be with you. (Philippians 4:8-9)

The other side of that is that I don’t believe in other Mormon scripture for specific reasons so it doesn’t hold any weight at all with me unless it is repeating Christian teaching from Biblical Scripture which is where I can agree.

I have no problem in general with the people as they are like me when it comes to being a sinner. It is in the specifics where I would make distinctions in liking disliking certain aspects concerning individuals and their behavior but still respecting their right to believe as they see fit.

There are many I’ve found I l can like here and some in particular rub me the wrong way at times but I don’t try to hold it against them. It’s just that they are irritating at times, some more than others and make it more difficult. I know I can probably be to but I try to keep it to a minimum.

Jesus died for the sins of the world but salvation is on an individual basis with a proper belief in the savior, not a church, one at a time. The Biblical command is to love God and my neighbor as myself. The “what is liked” was the priority side of the discussion.

Belief in the truth as it is in Jesus not in any particular church is of the utmost importance in my view but again there are distinctions to be made.

[Thunderfire]

Defenders of the LDS faith: What is your greatest issue with the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

Critics of the LDS faith: What is your greatest reason to like the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

I really don't see myself as either a defender or critic of the LDS faith. But of course there are some things I like and dislike as well as some things I think I understand and other things I only think I understand. Over the years I have met LDS who are very traditional, some very liberal, and some who appear more pentecostal and even Jewish. While I see those who post here as leaning more traditional, I recognize that this does not completely represent the views of the entire church.

With that said, I find a common thread of deep devotion to the church by all these different people and a sense of "place and purpose" that many other denominations do not offer their membership. I have also been impressed with the missionary spirit and how the children look forward to their time of mission.

Granted, while there are some theological beliefs that I struggle with, I have not let these become a source of contention because the good I see out weighs these differences. Just my thoughts...

[thesometimesaint]

GG:

I naturally tan very easily. I don't burn. Luck of the genetic draw there. The weather it's 59 degrees F. outside right now. Sure beats 29 Degrees F. in Provo.

I've come to prefer living here, for the life-style, and in some ways the near constant challenges to my faith. It keeps me on my mental/spiritual toes so to speak. The down side is the near constant challenges to my faith. Sometimes I just get tired of always being on my toes.

Edited December 8, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[cinepro]

Gold and Green, the YM/YW Mutual Improvement Association colors.

Blue and Gold dinners were part of the Cub Scout program. I believe they were originally a fund-raising activity, and now something of a super Court of Honor for those units that actually hold them.

Lehi

From one of my favorite Church News articles of all time:

GOLD AND GREEN BALL

Occasionally, one still hears of a Gold and Green Ball being held in one of the units of the Church, the last vestige of what was once a pervasive custom in stakes and wards. The balls were best-dress dances put on yearly. Within the confines of limited budgets, the best band available was hired and the cultural hall decorated as lavishly as possible. Sponsored by the MIAs, the dances typically attracted young and old. In later years, most people had forgotten the significance of the colors gold and green, but the dances continued to be popular until changing tastes in music and dancing made it somewhat difficult to put on a dance that appealed to both adults and youth.

"Actually," wrote Harold Lundstrom in the Jan. 26, 1949, Church News, "Gold and Green Balls were first introduced to the MIAs of the Church through a recommendation of Pres. Oscar A. Kirkham, then a member of the YMMIA general board. He proposed that each year the Mutuals sponsor a formal dance with the highest and most beautiful standards possible. Clarissa A. Beesley of the Young Women general board suggested using the names of the MIA colors, green and gold.

"These suggestions, adopted at the suggestion of Ellen Wallace Green, stands for youth and growth; gold stands for purity and perfection - combined, they symbolized the young men and women of the Church and their MIA program. Some years later, by official action of the general boards, the order of the words was changed from green and gold to gold and green so that they would be more euphonious."

MUTUAL IMPROVEMENT ASSOCIATION

After watching the young women of the Church grow in the Young Ladies' Department of the Cooperative Retrenchment Association (organized in 1869 by Brigham Young), President Young called Junius F. Wells in 1875 to organize societies among the young men "for their mutual improvement. . . . There is your name - the `Young Men's Mutual Improvement Association,' President Young said.

And so a name was born. In 1877, the name of the young women's organization was changed to Young Ladies' National Mutual Improvement Association to coincide with the young men's organization. The organizations were then nicknamed Mutual or MIA. In 1974 the programs were renamed Young Men and Young Women.

M MEN and GLEANERS

But what does M Men stand for? At a June conference in 1922, John A. Widtsoe was introduced as chairman of the newly created M Man Department. He asked those assembled at the conference to guess what the "M" stood for. Many said Mutual Men, Manly Men and Mormon Men. Showing great diplomacy, Elder Widtsoe announced that it stood for all good things that started with the letter M and was not limited to any one meaning.

The origin of the name Gleaner may be a little more obvious, but it still makes an interesting story. Ruth May Fox, serving as first counselor in the Young Ladies Mutual Improvement Association in 1924, suggested Gleaners be the new name for young women ages 18-23. The name was taken from the story of Ruth in the Bible.

"Gleaners . . . could do no better than to follow in her [Ruth'sT footsteps and glean in the various fields of life, choosing only the best in their gleaning," according to the History of the YWMIA by Marba C. Josephson.

Variations of the names were added for specific groups such as the Master M Man and Golden Gleaner, but both the M Man and Gleaner names met their fate as time went on. Church members of that age are now known as simply the Young Single Adults.

BEEHIVE, MIA MAID, LAUREL

Some Church members may have visions of beehive hairdos as a requirement for young women ages 12 and 13 who are members of the Beehive class. But perhaps Church leaders in 1915 had the right idea when they decided to make the beehive the symbol of the "lively" and "busy" girls.

The Beehive Girls program was organized in 1913 as the sister organization to the Boy Scouts for girls ages 14 to 17. The program began as a summer program of studies, literature, parties and hiking, according to the History of the YWMIA.

The young women began studying the life of the bee and its examples of service. Soon Church leaders wrote the Spirit of the Hive, which was to have faith, seek knowledge, safeguard health, honor womanhood, understand beauty, value work, love truth, taste the sweetness of service and feel joy.

Requirements to achieve three ranks - Builders in the Hive, Gatherers of the Honey and Keepers of the Bees - included knowing the vertical line test for correct posture of the body to knowing the proper use of hot and cold baths.

More advanced requirements included a girl learning to float in the Great Salt Lake, propelling herself 50 feet and getting on her feet unassisted. To match its name, the Beehive girls could meet a requirement by caring successfully for a hive of bees for one season and knowing their habits, according to A Century of Sisterhood, published by the Young Women's Mutual Improvement Association.

Although the name Beehive has quite a history in the Church, it can be confusing for new members of the Church and non-members as well.

In the early 1970s, for example, 19-year-old Rossalynn Hill and her older sister, Sherraden, were investigating the Church in Cudahy, Calif. The missionaries had invited the two young women to attend sacrament meeting, which happened to be a fast and testimony meeting.

During the meeting, the young women listened attentively as people rose and expressed their testimonies, and were especially interested in the testimony of one sister in the ward.

The Beehive adviser stood and expressed a deep love for "her Beehives."

"I love my Beehives and enjoy being with them, teaching them and taking them places," she said, emotionally. "We recently loaded the Beehives in my station wagon and went to the beach, where we had a wonderful time. They had so much fun that they didn't want to leave. It was hard to round them up and bring them home, and they were extra noisy during the trip. I'm so thankful for my Beehives. I just love them."

While the sister spoke, Rossalynn leaned over and whispered to a member sitting next to her: "Why would that lady take her beehives to the beach?"

"Because," the member responded, "that's where they wanted to go."

Rossalynn scooted closer to her sister, wondering what the people at the beach would think of this woman, unloading her "swarming beehives."

Both young women later had their misconceptions cleared up and subsequently joined the Church.

Rossalynn Hill Montague now teaches the Mia Maids in the Ogden 27th Ward, Ogden Utah Mt. Ogden Stake, and has taught the Beehives herself - but has never taken them to the beach.

By 1950, the MIA program realigned its age groups into Beehives, 12-13; Mia Maids, 14-15; Junior Gleaners, 16-18; and Gleaners, 19-29. Each age group developed its own requirements and programs.

A major part of the Mia Maid program was the class symbol of the rose. A requirement to achieve a rose pin in the Mia Joy program even included planting a rose.

A special Mia Maid rose was soon developed by a plant breeder from California. The rose, a delicate pink color, was a cross between the Charlotte Armstrong rose and the hardy Signora rose.

But perhaps among the three names, Mia Maid causes the most difficulty today in translation for a worldwide Church, said Jayne B. Malan, first counselor in the Young Women general presidency.

Young women and their leaders have written to the general Young Women offices asking what Mia Maid stands for so they can translate it or at least understand the translation.

A group of members from one country guessed that perhaps the MIA in Mia Maid stood for "many intellectual adults."

The Junior Gleaners name was changed to Laurels in 1959 and was named after the laurel tree with glossy, aromatic leaves. The laurel is a symbol of honor, distinction, and accomplishment, according to the Laurels Manual published in 1971-72 by the Church.

Some things uniquely LDS

BY SHERIDAN R. SHEFFIELD, R. SCOTT LLOYD and MIKE CANNON

Published: Saturday, Jan. 25, 1992

Edited December 8, 2011 by cinepro

[Sky]

GG:

I naturally tan very easily. I don't burn. Luck of the genetic draw there. The weather it's 59 degrees F. outside right now. Sure beats 29 Degrees F. in Provo.

I've come to prefer living here, for the life-style, and in some ways the near constant challenges to my faith. It keeps me on my mental/spiritual toes so to speak. The down side is the near constant challenges to my faith. Sometimes I just get tired of always being on my toes.

Just had to rub in that you live in sunny, warm, and beautiful California! But I hope you don't have to breathe too much pollution!

And I'm not so sure that it matters where you live anymore because I think we all face constant challenges to our faith in some degree.

[mfbukowski]

Defenders of the LDS faith: What is your greatest issue with the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

I think there is a built-in conceptual contradiction here.

As a "defender of the faith", I would never post ANY issues I may have with the church much less the "greatest" one.

All it would do is give ammo to the opposition.

Edited December 8, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Brade]

I think there is a built-in conceptual contradiction here.

As a "defender of the faith", I would never post ANY issues I may have with the church much less the "greatest" one.

All it would do is give ammo to the opposition.

Are you being serious?

[mfbukowski]

As a member one of my personal struggles is with my observation that so many of our senior preisthood leaders Stake Presidencies, Bishops, etc. in the U.S. seem to come from the same background - financially successful professionals (Business, law, medicine, etc.). Again, it's just my personal observation, but having moved 15 times in 25 years it always seems the same with rare exception. So, sometimes I struggle with understanding why it seems that so many good and faithful priesthood holders seem to be excluded from consideration for senior leadership because they don't have professional degrees or MBAs. I realize that I'm speaking in general terms and I'm sure there are exceptions, again, it's just my own observation.

Maybe it's just demographics, maybe that's how the Lord is working today, maybe I'm just being prideful and there isn't really an issue at all.

You have to have some discretionary income to spend 20-40 hours per week doing volunteer work for the church.

If you are doing a physical job 40 hours a week- who is going to want to go to church every night and spend another 3 hours and up to 12 on every Sunday ? It would kill you!

[LeSellers]

Are you being serious?

I'm sure he is, but I haven't answered the query for precisely that reason (among others, notably that I don't have any issues to raise), and I am deadly serious.

Lehi

[Brade]

I'm sure he is, but I haven't answered the query for precisely that reason (among others, notably that I don't have any issues to raise), and I am deadly serious.

Lehi

Yikes.

[Mark Beesley]

Defenders of the LDS faith: What is your greatest issue with the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

The 3-hour block.

[mfbukowski]

Are you being serious?

Absolutely.

This is war as far as I am concerned. Why would I spend time here if I was going to oppose my own efforts?

You think critics are here to praise the church?

[LeSellers]

Yikes.

Why?

That I (or anyone) should be completely committed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, His church and Kingdom, recognizing that He is my Chief, my Commander, my King, my Priest, and my God seems to make you nervous. So, again, I ask , "Why?"

Lehi

[Mark Beesley]

GG:

I naturally tan very easily. I don't burn. Luck of the genetic draw there. The weather it's 59 degrees F. outside right now. Sure beats 29 Degrees F. in Provo.

I've come to prefer living here, for the life-style, and in some ways the near constant challenges to my faith. It keeps me on my mental/spiritual toes so to speak. The down side is the near constant challenges to my faith. Sometimes I just get tired of always being on my toes.

You must live in the cold zone of Cal.

[Grundelwalken]

The things I might question in the Church are things that are hard for me and not necessarily things that are wrong with the Church. I'm not the best home-teacher but I don't want to get rid of home teaching. I wish missions were served at 18 but that's only because I could have gotten the boys out sooner. You know, stuff like that. MW

[Brade]

Absolutely.

This is war as far as I am concerned. Why would I spend time here if I was going to oppose my own efforts?

It just seems to me that you can think something to do with what you believe is problematic and say so and at the same time, for whatever reason (spiritual or otherwise), still think it's true or valuable or worth being committed to and talk about that stuff too. I remember doing a lot of that sort of thing in my philosophy classes, and we all got along just fine.

Not long ago I had a long discussions with somebody on this board where I disagreed and attacked his position. We ended up talking over the phone, partly to ensure that we weren't taking things personally. We had a nice chat and I think highly of this person. If I recall correctly we spoke praise of aspects of each other's views and some criticism of our own. It was all perfectly pleasant and un-war-like.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've defended views here that I don't believe, but that I thought were being mischaracterized. Do you think that doing that was foolish on my part?

The point is, I know dialogue like that is possible. Is there a reason I should not behave that way and instead closely guard personal criticisms of my own view and refrain from any praise of an opponents?

You think critics are here to praise the church?

No. But, I also don't think all critics would refrain from offering sincere positive opinions about aspects of the Church. For my part, I come around here for different reasons at different times. Mainly, I suppose, because I think the discussions are interesting. I often learn things, I'm often provoked to think about things I've not considered before, and I sometimes like to participate in discussions. Sometimes I like being deeper and more serious than at other times. Lately I've been a bit less serious, I think.

Why?

That I (or anyone) should be completely committed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, His church and Kingdom, recognizing that He is my Chief, my Commander, my King, my Priest, and my God seems to make you nervous. So, again, I ask , "Why?"

Lehi

I think that's fine that you're as committed as you are. The whole 'deadly serious' thing just seemed a bit dramatic to me. No offense.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Brade