The Other Side Of The Debate...

[mrmandias]

I have a question for defenders of the faith (Apologists, TBMs, future General Authorities, etc) and another question for critics of the LDS faith (former-mo's, never-mo's, anti-mo's, devils advocates, fringers, etc)

Defenders of the LDS faith: What is your greatest issue with the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

Critics of the LDS faith: What is your greatest reason to like the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

Please no back handed complements or snide jeers at the other side. Give it a page before you start arguing/defending other posts.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation and participation!

1. I wish we were more countercultural and consciously apart. This goes with my complaint that I think the Saints/the Church are playing down Pioneer Day and the Utah past more than I like.

2. I'm a big immigration restrictionist, so . . .

[mrmandias]

You have to have some discretionary income to spend 20-40 hours per week doing volunteer work for the church.

If you are doing a physical job 40 hours a week- who is going to want to go to church every night and spend another 3 hours and up to 12 on every Sunday ? It would kill you!

You are describing my former bishop, the plumber. It nearly did kill him.

[Brade]

Oh Kenngo, how WRONG you are!

Bear in mind, my wife and I chose to move to Cedar City for the simple fact that it put us close to our beloved Zion. My favorite months to visit Zion are between October and March. We'll be going down there next week for a three-day long "date night" excursion, staying in our favorite riverside hotel in Springdale – The Desert Pearl Inn.

These are photos I shot last winter. The first three were shot on December 23, 2010. The last one was in January 2011.

From Zion Lodge - 12/23/2010

Emerald Pools Waterfalls – 12/23/2010

Temple of Sinawava – 12/23/2010

Kolob Canyons – January 2011

For those too lazy to click on the links, here's the Temple of Sinawava shot embedded (note the red car in the lower right hand corner in order to appreciate the scale of the photo):

My dad lives near Zion and I love visiting the area. It's beautiful.

[Programmer]

The only thing I don't like is the acting in some of the church films. All the actors talk so slow....

"Hail Mary!"

[wait 4 seconds]

"I am so and so"

[wait 5 seconds]

"Who"

[wait 1 seconds]

"are"

[wait 1 seconds]

"you?"

[wait 15 seconds]

We really need a new acting director for church films.

The movie how rare a possession could have cut in half the time it took if the actors just spoke in a real speed.

For a good contrast watch the movie the Gospel of John. It is excellent, and the character who acts as Jesus actually is passionate, and talks in a real tone (not monotone).

[beckstcw]

As an atheist ex-Mo who rarely posts here (I simply enjoy learning new things about subjects which interest me), the thing I admire most about the Church is that the vast majority of it's member actually believe and live their religion, and the result is a focus on living a good life. Growing up, my father was out of work a lot, but I never noticed any hardships because the members and leaders around us gave us so much support. I have to respect for people who have the moral backbone to devote their lives to a sincere belief they hold (regardless of how valid I personally think it is).

[Storm Rider]

As an atheist ex-Mo who rarely posts here (I simply enjoy learning new things about subjects which interest me), the thing I admire most about the Church is that the vast majority of it's member actually believe and live their religion, and the result is a focus on living a good life. Growing up, my father was out of work a lot, but I never noticed any hardships because the members and leaders around us gave us so much support. I have to respect for people who have the moral backbone to devote their lives to a sincere belief they hold (regardless of how valid I personally think it is).

Thanks for posting.

I find that it is an admirable quality in any religion that seeks to serve mankind. I have a great afinity for the manner in which many Catholics live their lives. I have great humility and a true desire to serve others. There are certainly others that can be recognized also. However, I do enjoy seeing a ward that really functions well as a group. It is an inspiring experience.

[ebeddoulos]

For me the church is near perfect. Almost everything dovetails together into a beautiful mosaic. Individuals and societies are better off because the church exists. However, as noted, (near, almost) there is a caveat. The primary difficulty I have with the church is actually with members who mistake cultural practices (some taught, some not) for doctrine.

Examples:

Wearing white shirts is mandatory

No multiple earrings

No tattoos

Three hour block schedule

Blacks not holding the priesthood (which was so ingrained in the LDS psyche that it required a revelation to change)

Taking and passing the sacrament with the right hand

No facial hair

Edited December 13, 2011 by ebeddoulos

[Libs]

To add to your list, Ebeddoulos......that any drink with caffeine in it is against the WofW (like Coke or Pepsi).

[Sky]

To add to your list, Ebeddoulos......that any drink with caffeine in it is against the WofW (like Coke or Pepsi).

While not technically against the Word of Wisdom, I think it is certainly a wise decision to not drink pop. It never really made sense to me that tea is a no-no, but Mountain Dew and Coke, etc. are acceptable. But oh well. The Word of Wisdom is only a starting point. The rest seems to be up to individual interpretation and implementation, sound thinking, and the Spirit.

[cdowis]

Here goes.

The church's emphasis is on teenagers, and families with small children. If you are single (especially older single adult), empty nest couple, widow/widower, there is not much in the church for you.

It is sad that the HP group does very few, or any, activities compared to the elders, RS and Primary. Once a teenager graduates from High School, returns from a mission, when their needs are the greatest, the ward often has little for them to keep them activated.

Just my observation. In the Baptist church, they have lots of activities for different age groups, but, of course, these activities are directed by professionals.

In the Baptist church, the older couples go on excursions, we go to the temple.

The greatest strength of the LDS church is that it is lead by the lay members, but it can also be its greatest weakness.

Edited December 14, 2011 by cdowis

[KevinG]

How to tell how much caffeine is too much caffeine...

Edited December 14, 2011 by DaddyG

[Libs]

While not technically against the Word of Wisdom, I think it is certainly a wise decision to not drink pop. It never really made sense to me that tea is a no-no, but Mountain Dew and Coke, etc. are acceptable. But oh well. The Word of Wisdom is only a starting point. The rest seems to be up to individual interpretation and implementation, sound thinking, and the Spirit.

Oh, I agree. Soda is very bad for you, but tea (especially certain kinds of tea) is very good for you.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Libs

[Calm]

Here goes.

The church's emphasis is on teenagers, and families with small children. If you are single (especially older single adult), empty nest couple, widow/widower, there is not much in the church for you.

I think this depends a great deal on the ward. In various wards I've been in, most healthy older single sisters and couples go on missions, sometimes several (including with the finacial help of ward members). Genealogy is another area where they can contribute. Teaching positions can more easily be filled by older members than those with young children. Regular humanitarian projects can be directed by RS or the HP. Volunteer work at the local distribution centres, bishop storehouses, family services, etc. is an option. Teaching literacy programs through the relief society, empty nesters family home evening groups, book groups, etc. I can think of quite a few more ideas. There is always something to get involved in.

For the homebound, our ward is recording sacrament meeting and each week after church it is delivered by a young lady, deacon or teacher and a priest where they open with a prayer, sing a hymn, share a spiritual thought and then provide the sacrament. The bishop is hoping to get approval to broadcast the meeting live via computer and possibly add classes to the recordings. If there is enough interest, recordings can be made of classes as well.

[lachrymolotov]

The emphasis on family and community and the execution of those ideas are what makes the Church better than many others. The fact that everyone has a place in the hierarchy and is encouraged to participate builds a lot of good qualities in people and teaches leadership and teamwork in a way that most churches do not. It is like a military structure... or, at the very least, an ICS structure that can be successful in any situation. So... props for that.

[Scott Lloyd]

From one of my favorite Church News articles of all time:

Thanks, Cinepro.

Sheridan, Mike and I had a good time working on that piece nearly 20 years ago. Sheridan moved on to bliss as the wife of a successful physician; Mike is now head of the Communications Department at BYU-Idaho; I'm still doing the same gig.

A portion of the article you didn't quote that I found interesting when I researched it is the derivation of the term "fireside" in the Church. The story goes that the Church's Institue of Religion building adjacent to the University of Utah campus had a room with a hearth. Back in the day, Lowell Bennion would invite students to assemble for informal gospel discussions on Sunday evenings in that room, where a fire in the fireplace undoubtedly would lend a homey atmosphere to the gathering. Perhaps in keeping with FDR's "fireside chats" of the period, these meetings came to be known as firesides, a name that came to be applied to other Sunday meetings in the Church that were not part of the formal worship services of Priesthood meeting, Sunday School and sacrament meeting.

[Mudcat]

Critics of the LDS faith: What is your greatest reason to like the church as it is today (doctrinal, practices or cultural)?

Hi DG,

As an EV who is married to an LDS whose family is also LDS, I have had the fortune to see first hand things I find admirable that are promoted by the CoJCoLDS.

The one point that strikes me most is the promotion for the preservation and growth of the family. Your religion works hard at trying to keep families together and helping them grow together. It is an area the CoJCoLDS excels in. Such efforts should be modeled or at least be a template or an example to other Christian faiths.

Another that I am a bit envious of, is the evangelical arm of your faith. 50,000+ dedicated missionaries in the field is certainly a feather in the cap of the CoJCoLDS. This too is something other Christians should take a look at. Given the size of the religion vs. the ratio of "boots on the ground", you guys stack up formidably in contrast to other Christian groups. You guys have a bit of Swiss Army structure, in that respect, certainly worthy of note.

Hope you have a wonderful Christmas season,

Mudcat

[Shelama]

Why is it that childhood indoctrination and profound Biblical ignorance are the only ways into Mormonism and Christianity?

Why is it that from the honest, informed, critical study of a common body of evidence regarding the Bible and/or the BoMormon and BoAbraham, ONLY those people who are deeply committed and invested conclude in favor of their claims of truth and divinity?

Why is it that honest, informed, critical study of these texts often lead people to de-convert and leave their faith but never result in conversion from Unbelief to Belief?

What would happen to Mormonism if doctrine and policy was that parents should teach their children to acquire both critical thinking skills and education, including a broad and critical investigation of the Bible, and attain to an age of full intellectual accountability, before being taught the Bible and Mormonism, the BOM, and "only true church," and then allowed to make their own informed decision about belief and baptism?

What would happen if the Mormon policy was that all missionaries and all of their contacts should have at least a modest understanding of Biblical issues (authorship, text analysis, historicity, story in the ancient world; comparative study of ancient culture, story and religion in the Levant; translation and transmission history; Jewish v. Christian translations, interpretation and usage of Hebrew scripture; Gospel authorship & historicity; non-textual use of Hebrew scriptures by the Evangelists, etc, etc?

Why does the NT sound and read so much like the invention of a successful and living Christian messiah from out of a failed and dead Jewish messiah through the non-contextual use of Hebrew scripture and the whole-cloth invention of new, non-Jewish concepts of sin, atonement, messiah and salvation?

[LeSellers]

Why is it that childhood indoctrination and profound Biblical ignorance are the only ways into Mormonism and Christianity?

They're not. In fact, they are rather rare, as far as I have observed, especially the second.

Why is it that from the honest, informed, critical study of a common body of evidence regarding the Bible and/or the BoMormon and BoAbraham, ONLY those people who are deeply committed and invested conclude in favor of their claims of truth and divinity?

Since virtually none of the hundreds of thousands of converts each year have any commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as preached by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this rant is a failure.

Why is it that honest, informed, critical study of these texts often lead people to de-convert and leave their faith but never result in conversion from Unbelief to Belief?

Once again, your attack is fallacious. Many here who were once atheists are now fully committed Saints.

What would happen to Mormonism if doctrine and policy was that parents should teach their children to acquire both critical thinking skills and education, including a broad and critical investigation of the Bible, and attain to an age of full intellectual accountability, before being taught the Bible and Mormonism, the BOM, and "only true church," and then allowed to make their own informed decision about belief and baptism?

Why would anyone want to do that?

Our Doctrine and Covenants says that parents are responsible for teaching their children the Gospel and to seek for and accept baptism at age eight. You are asking that we reject our doctrine and break our covenants.

What would happen if the Mormon policy was that all missionaries and all of their contacts should have at least a modest understanding of Biblical issues (authorship, text analysis, historicity, story in the ancient world; comparative study of ancient culture, story and religion in the Levant; translation and transmission history; Jewish v. Christian translations, interpretation and usage of Hebrew scripture; Gospel authorship & historicity; non-textual use of Hebrew scriptures by the Evangelists, etc, etc?

Many do, and they are still successful.

However, since we do not believe in intellectual conversions, but rely on the Spirit to give us light and truth, none of that is necessary.

Why does the NT sound and read so much like the invention of a successful and living Christian messiah from out of a failed and dead Jewish messiah through the non-contextual use of Hebrew scripture and the whole-cloth invention of new, non-Jewish concepts of sin, atonement, messiah and salvation?

One hears what one expects to when reading any text. Why is it that you sound like a pseudo-intellectual atheist with a chip on his shoulder?

Lehi

Edited December 29, 2011 by LeSellers

[Calm]

Why is it that childhood indoctrination and profound Biblical ignorance are the only ways into Mormonism and Christianity?

CFR

Why is it that from the honest, informed, critical study of a common body of evidence regarding the Bible and/or the BoMormon and BoAbraham, ONLY those people who are deeply committed and invested conclude in favor of their claims of truth and divinity?

CFR

Why is it that honest, informed, critical study of these texts often lead people to de-convert and leave their faith but never result in conversion from Unbelief to Belief?

CFR

Why does the NT sound and read so much like the invention of a successful and living Christian messiah from out of a failed and dead Jewish messiah through the non-contextual use of Hebrew scripture and the whole-cloth invention of new, non-Jewish concepts of sin, atonement, messiah and salvation?

CFR

Why is it that some people expect to be taken seriously while making blanket accusations without much substance to them?

[Deborah]

Why is it that childhood indoctrination and profound Biblical ignorance are the only ways into Mormonism and Christianity?

Wow! Your rant is so full of misinformation where does one begin. Since many of us are converts to Mormonism, and not even grounded in any church prior to that, one could hardly say we were indoctrinated. You are apparently unaware of how many Biblical scholars are on this forum or in the church.

Why is it that honest, informed, critical study of these texts often lead people to de-convert and leave their faith but never result in conversion from Unbelief to Belief?

Most people I know who do make informed critical study actually become more converted.

You really would be wise to know what you are talking about before making such statements.

[Calm]

Why is it that you sound like a pseudo-intellectual atheist with a chip on his shoulder?

Lehi

More of a Jewish flavour to me, though of what variety......

[LeSellers]

More of a Jewish flavour to me, though of what variety......

Many of the world's most famous Jews are/were atheists, so, as you said, "of what variety ...".

Lehi

[zerinus]

Why is it that childhood indoctrination and profound Biblical ignorance are the only ways into Mormonism and Christianity?

Why is it that from the honest, informed, critical study of a common body of evidence regarding the Bible and/or the BoMormon and BoAbraham, ONLY those people who are deeply committed and invested conclude in favor of their claims of truth and divinity?

Why is it that honest, informed, critical study of these texts often lead people to de-convert and leave their faith but never result in conversion from Unbelief to Belief?

What would happen to Mormonism if doctrine and policy was that parents should teach their children to acquire both critical thinking skills and education, including a broad and critical investigation of the Bible, and attain to an age of full intellectual accountability, before being taught the Bible and Mormonism, the BOM, and "only true church," and then allowed to make their own informed decision about belief and baptism?

What would happen if the Mormon policy was that all missionaries and all of their contacts should have at least a modest understanding of Biblical issues (authorship, text analysis, historicity, story in the ancient world; comparative study of ancient culture, story and religion in the Levant; translation and transmission history; Jewish v. Christian translations, interpretation and usage of Hebrew scripture; Gospel authorship & historicity; non-textual use of Hebrew scriptures by the Evangelists, etc, etc?

Why does the NT sound and read so much like the invention of a successful and living Christian messiah from out of a failed and dead Jewish messiah through the non-contextual use of Hebrew scripture and the whole-cloth invention of new, non-Jewish concepts of sin, atonement, messiah and salvation?

I think that your first post in this forum would be better served if you would spend some time telling us something about yourself, your background, your motivation for posting here, and what you hope to gain or achieve by your participation.

By the way, I like your avatar image. It shows a good sense of color balance and image manipulation.

Edited December 29, 2011 by zerinus

[katherine the great]

The only thing I don't like is the acting in some of the church films. All the actors talk so slow....

"Hail Mary!"

[wait 4 seconds]

"I am so and so"

[wait 5 seconds]

"Who"

[wait 1 seconds]

"are"

[wait 1 seconds]

"you?"

[wait 15 seconds]

We really need a new acting director for church films.

The movie how rare a possession could have cut in half the time it took if the actors just spoke in a real speed.

For a good contrast watch the movie the Gospel of John. It is excellent, and the character who acts as Jesus actually is passionate, and talks in a real tone (not monotone).

Oh Amen! I have a lot of experience in acting (theater and limited television), and I'm very picky about things like that. I absolutely hate the slow pace of so many LDS productions. I think it is a misguided attempt at reverence. Reverence is not synonymous with boring, slow and quiet. I especially have cringed at recreations of Joseph Smith's character. Joseph Smith was a vibrant, passionate, energetic, charismatic "larger than life" kind of person. I've never seen his personality done justice, although I do think a young Stewart Petersen was rather engaging in his 70's portrayal of the First Vision. I feel the same way about the actresses who try to play Emma. Blech! No personality!

Now I want to say something nice about my church. I love LDS men. I interact with men from all different walks of life and all different cultures and educational backgrounds. LDS men are my favorites to work with because they are infinitely more respectful of women in general than any other group of men I've worked with. Of course there are exceptions, but generally speaking, LDS men are awesome!

[Minos]

Why is it that childhood indoctrination and profound Biblical ignorance are the only ways into Mormonism and Christianity?

Why is it that from the honest, informed, critical study of a common body of evidence regarding the Bible and/or the BoMormon and BoAbraham, ONLY those people who are deeply committed and invested conclude in favor of their claims of truth and divinity?

Why is it that honest, informed, critical study of these texts often lead people to de-convert and leave their faith but never result in conversion from Unbelief to Belief?

What would happen to Mormonism if doctrine and policy was that parents should teach their children to acquire both critical thinking skills and education, including a broad and critical investigation of the Bible, and attain to an age of full intellectual accountability, before being taught the Bible and Mormonism, the BOM, and "only true church," and then allowed to make their own informed decision about belief and baptism?

What would happen if the Mormon policy was that all missionaries and all of their contacts should have at least a modest understanding of Biblical issues (authorship, text analysis, historicity, story in the ancient world; comparative study of ancient culture, story and religion in the Levant; translation and transmission history; Jewish v. Christian translations, interpretation and usage of Hebrew scripture; Gospel authorship & historicity; non-textual use of Hebrew scriptures by the Evangelists, etc, etc?

Why does the NT sound and read so much like the invention of a successful and living Christian messiah from out of a failed and dead Jewish messiah through the non-contextual use of Hebrew scripture and the whole-cloth invention of new, non-Jewish concepts of sin, atonement, messiah and salvation?

I am going to give you one personal session because if you ever post like this again you will be escorted off the board. First, you will be respectful while expressing disagreement. We do not allow religion bashing here and that means all religions. If you have accusations produce evidence. CFR means "call for references". If you do not supply them you are out of the discussion. That rule is to prevent what you have just done in your first post.

I suggest you read the board rules and spend some time getting the feel of the place before you continue. We are always glad to have new posters no matter what their viewpoint but we do expect them to be courteous.