Accusations Of Lds General Authority Greed And Mishandling Funds

[HeatherAnn]

That would not be faith and not a treasure of any kind.

Blind Faith: belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination

"Faith... must be enforced by reason.... When faith becomes blind it dies." ~Mahatma Gandhi

[HeatherAnn]

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 addresses something else more akin to fast and humanitarian offerings.

That's incorrect.

Let's go over it again...

"And at the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

Edited November 19, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[cdowis]

Heather, in case you are unaware, LDS pay BOTH tithing and fast offerings. We pay more than the Israelites did, not only to run the church but also to give to the poor. Again, thanks for the advice.

[ERayR]

Blind Faith: belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination

"Faith... must be enforced by reason.... When faith becomes blind it dies." ~Mahatma Gandhi

Faith is reinforced for some by personal revelation (confirmation from the Holy Ghost).

[Nemesis]

Heatherann,

You wonder why you feel attacked when you yourself are the cause and put everyone on the defensive. Please stop playing the victim especially when you question others Christianity.

Nemesis

[Scott Lloyd]

HeatherAnn, are you "Harmony" on the Mormon Discussions Board?

[frankenstein]

Why would she do anything different?

I mean, it's not as though she's actually trying to learn or understand anything,

Both her original rant and her presence in this thread were not attempts at earnest discussion- they were preaching.

The original thread- and her careful dodges in this one- are nothing more or less than an attempt to "call this people to repentance"- and accept the Gospel accorging to to HeatherAnn.

She's not here to learn or discuss, but to vent her frustrations and sow discord and doubt amongst the Latter-day faithful.

In short, she's trolling and throwing bombs.

Note that despite repeated demands and calls for reference- she's offered not one substantive fact to support her allegations of wrongdoing by the Saints.

Everything is based on "estimates" and her personal, private interpretation of Scriptures.

Throwing around unfounded allegations of greed, dishonesty, and malfeasance is NOT "respectful".

Would a Christian repeatedly bear false witness against people she doesn't know? Would a Christian spread vicious and hateful gossip based only on her own small-minded suspicions about others?

You've accused and smeared our leaders HeatherAnn, without providing any evidence against them- only rumor, gossip, and innuendo.

Who've questioned the intelligence, morality, and faith of everyone and everybody who disagrees with you, and pontificated about what a "true Christian" would do- and then complained that we're not being "respectful".

Physician, heal thyself.

Would a Christian attack another person or would a Christian turn the other cheek. The amount of justificTion for insults is just stupifying. And that the admin of the board also justify the attacks is even more stupifying. Shouldn't those who claim Gods only true church/religion live and act to a higher standard regardless of how they are treated.

[annewandering]

If any one doesnt trust the church to be honest with the tithing they pay then they can just not pay it. If you trust them then why do you care what is specifically done with it? And if you dont pay then its none of your business.

Edited November 19, 2011 by annewandering

[Nemesis]

Would a Christian attack another person or would a Christian turn the other cheek. The amount of justificTion for insults is just stupifying. And that the admin of the board also justify the attacks is even more stupifying. Shouldn't those who claim Gods only true church/religion live and act to a higher standard regardless of how they are treated.

Well you have been here long enough to know board nannying will not be tolerated. Enjoy the vacation.

Nemesis

[Scott Lloyd]

If any one doesnt trust the church to be honest with the tithing they pay then they can just not pay it. If you trust them then why do you care what is specifically done with it? And if you dont pay then its none of your business.

Well, it gets complicated in HeatherAnn's case.

I get the sense that she loves her family deeply, too much to accept the breach in family relations that would result in her formally breaking with the Church or even falling away from being ostensibly active in it.

Moreover, I gather that her husband is a faithful tithe payer. She no doubt feels some claim on the household income and probably resents the use of 10 percent of it for purposes of which she does not approve.

[MorningStar]

The church can't win. Even if they put up a website with the amount of tithing coming in and where it's going, people would just accuse them of fudging the numbers.

[Log]

Ark steadiers are steadying the ark.

[Analytics]

The church can't win. Even if they put up a website with the amount of tithing coming in and where it's going, people would just accuse them of fudging the numbers.

If the church published audited financial reports, only the most wacky conspiracy theorists would accuse them of lying about it.

In any case, it isn't about "winning". It's about doing what is right. In this case, the right thing to do is provide current financial reports to anybody who asks.

[KevinG]

Blind Faith: belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination

"Faith... must be enforced by reason.... When faith becomes blind it dies." ~Mahatma Gandhi

This is terribly disappointing. I asked participants to avoid personal jabs and you throw out the "blind faith" charge.

Would a Christian attack another person or would a Christian turn the other cheek. The amount of justificTion for insults is just stupifying. And that the admin of the board also justify the attacks is even more stupifying. Shouldn't those who claim Gods only true church/religion live and act to a higher standard regardless of how they are treated.

This is also disappointing. It seems the critics of the LDS Church often fall back to accusations of "attacks" when the Saints are defending their own honor from false charges of greed, dishonesty, blindness, conspiracy and other not so nice implied and stated insults.

Accusations like this are very serious and understandably put Mormons on the defense. It is always the bullies who scream the loudest when called on their actions. It is up to an accuser to exercise some charity in how they receive understandably strong responses to such serious charges...

Back to the OP... what evidence does anyone have of misuse of church funds or the greed of the church leadership?

I have heard the implied charges and understand the issue with wanting more visibility - but there is a long distance from lack of visibility to graft. What real evidence of misuse drives these accusations?

[KevinG]

If the church published audited financial reports, only the most wacky conspiracy theorists would accuse them of lying about it.

That is in a nutshell my fear - not only accusations of lying but trying to micromanage funds and needs with only a cursory knowledge of what the real needs and income is.

Even when interviews and information is shared the critics immediately go on wild guesses about what it really means. The calculation about 1% of the Church income or assets being spent on charity is pretty wild and silly. Especially if you don't know if it is liquid funds, income or fixed assets like land for church welfare farms and chapels.

[KevinG]

The confidentiality of people who donate and receive help is a different issue. When they say, "Christian organizations provide current financial statements to anyone who submits a written request for them because it is the right thing to do," they aren't implying that they must disclose individual donnors or recipients of aid. Rather, they are implying that they must provide income statements and balance sheets that show the church's income, expenses, and assets.

You have a point. I am more comfortable with the church stating income than expenses other than a very cursory percentage spent in overhead or other usually public information for charities. I still don't think it would discourage the wild conspiracy theories and charges that the General Authorities are corrupt by more vocal critics.

The question I wanted to explore in this thread was how critics justify those wild conspiracy theories and accusations. So far I haven't heard much besides; if its secret there must be something wrong.

[Analytics]

You have a point. I am more comfortable with the church stating income than expenses other than a very cursory percentage spent in overhead or other usually public information for charities. I still don't think it would discourage the wild conspiracy theories and charges that the General Authorities are corrupt by more vocal critics.

The question I wanted to explore in this thread was how critics justify those wild conspiracy theories and accusations. So far I haven't heard much besides; if its secret there must be something wrong.

I'll state for the record that I personally know somebody who is privy to the details of the church’s financials, and I’m quite satisfied that nothing egregious is going on.

I was having this conversation a few years ago, and I raised Billy Graham as an example. The person I was chatting with was convinced that there was no way that Billy Graham would disclose the finances of his ministry, much less how much money he personally made. I sent Graham an email asking for the details, and his personal assistant kindly mailed me the ministry’s audited financial statements. She also sent me an email that said that Mr. Graham’s income was not in the published statements, but that he made $120,000 in salary, plus an additional $90,000 in living expenses (I don’t recall the exact number, but it was in that ballpark), and that this was everything he made and that he received no other income from book royalties or any other source.

One could certainly criticize Graham for making such a comfortable income off of being a preacher. On the other hand, what he keeps for himself is only a small fraction of what he could make if he were maximizing his personal wealth. But regardless, you have to admire him for laying it out in the open.

[KevinG]

I'll state for the record that I personally know somebody who is privy to the details of the church’s financials, and I’m quite satisfied that nothing egregious is going on.

I've known a handful of Church Headquarters employees and their description of budget meetings and how hands on the Brethren were about new expenditures was much more careful than the corporate and state budget process I've experienced.

Second hand as it is, I believe that the Brethren take their sacred responsibility with the widows mite very, very seriously.

I know first hand on the local level the problem (if there is a problem) isn't so much with expenditures as it is with individual people paying a full tithing and generous fast offerings to support the poor. I increased my fast offerings after serving in a couple of positions where I was resopnsible for collections and budgets.

If there is any criticism to be made about funds that is where it belongs IMO, not with the brethren.

[Analytics]

I know first hand on the local level the problem (if there is a problem) isn't so much with expenditures as it is with individual people paying a full tithing and generous fast offerings to support the poor. I increased my fast offerings after serving in a couple of positions where I was resopnsible for collections and budgets.

If the church published its financial reports so the members could see exactly how much the church collects and what they do with it, would that motivate the Saints to donate more?

[cinepro]

To me, the issue is simply this:

Do we believe that we have fallible leaders, or do we not?

It seems to be a tenet of apologetics that our leaders are fallible, and that God allows them to make mistakes, and do the wrong thing because they still have their agency. They can be well intentioned, but still make terrible investment decisions, or be duped by con men, or misallocate funds in all the different ways that humans make mistakes with money.

And in spite of their best efforts and inspiration, it is possible for men to be called to leadership that may intentionally do the wrong thing with the money. Hopefully it's very unlikely, but it's possible.

Additionally, tithing and offerings are promoted to the Church members as being an obligation because it's "God's Church", and the funds are to be used for "God's purposes". The money that people have isn't theirs, it's God's, and God wants 10% back. So the people give the Church their 10%, and it isn't really "the Church's" money, it's "God's Money" that the Church is using on His behalf.

So the reason the Church should provide more detailed information about the disposition of the finances is because the money is either the people's or the Lord's, and the men who are custodians of the money are either doing what the Lord wants them to, or not, and either way it would be a good thing to make that information public.

[elguanteloko]

I was saddened to see the Proper Use of Church Funds thread closed down over accusations of badgering and disrespect. I ask up front that both sides of this discussion avoid ad hominem arguments against each other or the general authorities of the LDS church.

Accusations were made that the LDS general authorities and by extension the LDS church in general were greedy and not using tithing funds properly. This is a very serious allegation and one levelled by critics and those who have fallen away from the church.

When I asked for from any critic about 1) what expenditures they thought were a waste of tithing, 2) who should be in charge of disbursements if not general and local authority and 3) how critics would spend funds differently I received these answers:

1) No one can know how much money the church has because they carefully keep that secret.

2) Tithing is a separate financial category than humanitarian & fast offering donations, despite that this is against commandments given in the scriptures - for tithes to be primarily for those poor in need, & that the greatest commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves.

3) I am not a financial expert, nor would ANYONE be appropriate in responding to ALL of the needs of poverty throughout the world. Even the church, is organized like a pyramid... the precidency at top, then the 12, then the 70, (& many employees scattered throughout) - then the regional level, stake level/stake presidency, ward level/bishopric... then organizations within the ward: Relief Society, High Priest, Elder's Quorum, Primary, Young Men & Young Women, SundaySchool etc.

Regarding these answers...

1) The funds are private but their use is hardly a secret. Evidence of well built chapels, Temples, printed materials, missionary work and other infrastructure for the use of church members and their surrounding communities is all over the world. Agree or disagree the many businesses, welfare institutions and educational institutions the church runs increase and multiply the offerings of the Saints. Pure Religion - LDS Church Welfare since 1930

As to the accusation that there is greed and misuse involved I call for evidence of any misuse of tithing funds that was not answered with quick discipline from church authorities for those involved. A serious charge like greed or use of funds against the laws of God requires more evidence than lack of visibility to every critic who would like to see the details of expenditures.

As has already been pointed out: Tithes are separate from fast offerings for the poor and needy in this dispensation and in ancient Israel. Even in that case it has also been pointed out that tithes are used to supplement fast offerings in poor areas of the church and have been funnelled into humanitarian aid projects - never the other way around.

2) I'm not sure what saying tithes are different from fast offerings has to do with who should be in charge of them if not Prophets, Apostles, 70s, Auxilliary General Authorities, Stake Presidents, Bishops and Relief Society Presidents. If not those brethren and Sisters then who should be in charge?

3) Im not sure why the pyramidal structure of an organization has to do with how critics feel the church should handle its finances better? Being an organizational expert for a living has me scratching my head as to how an organization with centralized leadership could be anything other than a pyramid- but having said that there is a ton of authority left in the hands of Stakes and Wards to disburse their own funds. Salt lake will collect and distribute depending on local surplus and shortcomings, but other than tight controls over receipts and accounting Salt lake City leaves the authority for local needs in local hands.

---

My remaining question to critics of the handling of LDS tithes and offerings is this...

Other than opening the books so you can see for yourself what evidence if greed and wrongdoing is there in LDS Church finances and how would you do things differently to correct these perceived wrongdoings?

If there are places where we are truly breaking our own rules or less effective than we could be I'd like to learn and do better. If there are not I'd like the unfounded accusations against the Church to stop.

(remember participants please avoid personal remarks that could derail this discussion).

I'm a critic and I'll give it a try.

Until I see Mormons preaching about helping the needy as much as Christ did, then these criticisms will disappear. A walk through temples and chapels will reveal that the priorities of the Church are not where the priorities of Christ where (giving GAs the most charitable view of them, leaving controversies aside).

...or conservative Mormons could simply say that Christ wasn't knowledgeable enough in Economics.

Edited November 19, 2011 by elguanteloko

[KevinG]

I'm a critic and I'll give it a try.

Until I see Mormons preaching about helping the needy as much as Christ did, then these criticisms will disappear. A walk through temples and chapels will reveal that the priorities of the Church are not where the priorities of Christ where (giving GAs the most charitable view of them, leaving controversies aside).

...or conservative Mormons could simply say that Christ wasn't knowledgeable enough in Economics.

Our chapels are very spartain compared to most other religions and they house multiple congregations. Our Temples are The Lords and where we provide saving ordinances as directed by Him. You might as well complain that perfumes were wasted on the Saviors feet when they could have been sold and the money given to the poor.

We not only preach about helping the needy we do help the needy in many ways reflected and not reflected in the church financial accounts.

I don't know about your local Mormons but we get preached at all the time about doing more for our poor and communities. Christ's own words are used in many of those sermons. We also step up with lots of service and donations.

And one more time with the unanswered question...where does any of this justify calling General Authorities corrupt of the church "greedy"?

Edited November 19, 2011 by DaddyG

[KevinG]

To me, the issue is simply this:

Do we believe that we have fallible leaders, or do we not?

It seems to be a tenet of apologetics that our leaders are fallible, and that God allows them to make mistakes, and do the wrong thing because they still have their agency. They can be well intentioned, but still make terrible investment decisions, or be duped by con men, or misallocate funds in all the different ways that humans make mistakes with money.

And in spite of their best efforts and inspiration, it is possible for men to be called to leadership that may intentionally do the wrong thing with the money. Hopefully it's very unlikely, but it's possible.

Additionally, tithing and offerings are promoted to the Church members as being an obligation because it's "God's Church", and the funds are to be used for "God's purposes". The money that people have isn't theirs, it's God's, and God wants 10% back. So the people give the Church their 10%, and it isn't really "the Church's" money, it's "God's Money" that the Church is using on His behalf.

So the reason the Church should provide more detailed information about the disposition of the finances is because the money is either the people's or the Lord's, and the men who are custodians of the money are either doing what the Lord wants them to, or not, and either way it would be a good thing to make that information public.

So your argument is that public disclosure will prevent malfeasance or bad accounting that probably isn't happening? I can see a fine point in that. The Prophet Joseph after all was terrible with money and we almost went bankrupt in the great depression and the decade prior. Although we now have an army of accountants, professional managers and an independent auditing firm looking after our debt free books.

Again... what does this have to do with accusations of greed and misappropriation?

[why me]

Anyone investigating the church: TAKE NOTES on how you might be treated if you question anything about the church, as I have.

I & others have already explained... we need financial transparency, which the church withholds.

Even Cinepro acknowledges this.

No heather ann you need to stop using this card to make your point. I think that many forum members are attempting to have you prove tbat the lds church misuses funds and you haven't done that. You seem to make accusations that the tithing funds are misused but I have seen no proof. So, people looking into the church on this forum will need to understand that if one makes an accusation and yet, they fail to prove it, it will be challenged.

[elguanteloko]

Our chapels are very spartain compared to most other religions and they house multiple congregations. Our Temples are The Lords and where we provide saving ordinances as directed by Him. You might as well complain that perfumes were wasted on the Saviors feet when they could have been sold and the money given to the poor.

We not only preach about helping the needy we do help the needy in many ways reflected and not reflected in the church financial accounts.

And one more time with the unanswered question...where does any of this justify calling General Authorities corrupt of the church "greedy"?

You can always say "The Lord told us to do it that way" but, of course, that isn't going to fly with me and, really, shouldn't fly with you either. I gave the standard (Christ), not that the Church doesn't help the poor. I also never said the GAs were 'greedy' if by that we mean normal, everyday folk standard. I'm talking about a truly Christian standard here.

I'll bring to your attention my signature quote:

"In truth, there was only one Christian and he died on the cross" -- Friedrich Nietzsche