KevinG Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 ...or conservative Mormons could simply say that Christ wasn't knowledgeable enough in Economics.CFR on this being said by any Mormon. Or you could just acknowledge that you have to create a characture of Mormons in order to support your very insulting comment....and no Christ was not building chapels and running humanitarian missions world wide - but His teachings still apply today and the Mormons do our best to follow them.
why me Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I'm a critic and I'll give it a try.Until I see Mormons preaching about helping the needy as much as Christ did, then these criticisms will disappear. A walk through temples and chapels will reveal that the priorities of the Church are not where the priorities of Christ where (giving GAs the most charitable view of them, leaving controversies aside).And do you have proof of this? Have you been to every chapel in the world and heard what members are speaking about? How can one say what you just said without proof? Mormons are human beings who talk about many things. They mainly talk about love and how to love one's neighbor. I have heard members speak on love many times. And this love is to love those in need. So, I see no evidence that this is not being done.Also, many churches have beautiful places of worship. Why not the mormons? Should mormons worship in a log shack and meet outside in the rain when the shack in full? Since according to the lds church, god needs temples for sacred work to be done, it only makes sense that temples are built. To understand this one would need to be a saint in Yekatarinaburg who had to travel to moscow and then to helsinki to go to the temple. Now there journey is a little shorter when the temple was built in the ukraine. it is like this all over the world. Also, the lds church is doing good work in places where members and others are poor. Now could they do more? Probably. so, since poverty is increasing and not decreasing. But that has to do with global governance of resources.
elguanteloko Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 CFR on this being said by any Mormon. Or you could just acknowledge that you have to create a characture of Mormons in order to support your very insulting comment.I said Mormons COULD say it right up front instead of dancing around it, not that (any Mormon) said it.
elguanteloko Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) And do you have proof of this?[Evidence] of what?Have you been to every chapel in the world and heard what members are speaking about?Surprise, no... and?How can one say what you just said without proof?Again, evidence of what, exactly? That the priorities of Christ were not the priorities of the Church today?Mormons are human beings who talk about many things.Never would have guessed that. I thought my family (all of them Mormons) was made up of robots.They mainly talk about love and how to love one's neighbor. I have heard members speak on love many times. And this love is to love those in need. So, I see no evidence that this is not being done.Did I ever said members of the Church didn't talk about love? No. Did I ever say members of the Church don't love? No.Here's a small piece of advice to understanding the world: Love is NOT understanding anymore than anger is understanding. You can love or hate the right or the wrong things for the right or for the wrong reasons in the right or in the wrong manner with the right or with the wrong intensity. You should be as careful of what you love as of what you hate... or probably more.Also, many churches have beautiful places of worship. Why not the mormons?You should be peculiar people, bro. What kind of question is this?Should mormons worship in a log shack and meet outside in the rain when the shack in full? Since according to the lds church, god needs temples for sacred work to be done, it only makes sense that temples are built. To understand this one would need to be a saint in Yekatarinaburg who had to travel to moscow and then to helsinki to go to the temple. Now there journey is a little shorter when the temple was built in the ukraine. it is like this all over the world. Also, the lds church is doing good work in places where members and others are poor. Now could they do more? Probably. so, since poverty is increasing and not decreasing. But that has to do with global governance of resources.If the priority was to be Christlike then this question would arise differently. Why not worship in a log shack and meet outside in the rain when the shack is full while giving most of the resources we have to feeding the hungry and helping the poor? Edited November 19, 2011 by elguanteloko 1
CV75 Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Blind Faith: belief without true understanding, perception, or discriminationWithout faith, there is nothing transparent about the Gospel. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will be satisfied with the assurance of things that are not seen but true. Demanding transparency is not exercising faith.Giving up one’s money to the Lord then demanding of Him how He spends it, when He has explained what is to be done with it already, is not faith.Matthew 6 touches on the idea that our heavenly treasure means giving of our means and of ourselves to good deeds in secret, where the left hand knows not what the right hand is doing. This idea extends into what is described in Matthew 25:23, where the goats do not know what the sheep are doing. In this case, our doubting tendencies do not know what our faithful tendencies do, and we have to choose to go one way or the other. In Zion, we give our material treasures to the Church for the Lord’s anointed to manage, and being of one faith, heart and mind, all have the assurance that our heart’s treasure, in this case caring for the poor, is met. This is not blind faith to those who enjoy this aspect of the Gospel. 1
CV75 Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 That's incorrect.Let's go over it again..."And at the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29I'll let the scholars correct you on this point if they haven't already.
why me Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 [Evidence] of what?If the priority was to be Christlike then this question would arise differently. Why not worship in a log shack and meet outside in the rain when the shack is full while giving most of the resources we have to feeding the hungry and helping the poor?I believe that you mentioned that mormons are not preaching about the poor. I challenged you on that assumption. I think that love has much to do about the needy and poverty. If we learn to truly love each other we would not allow the poverty rate to rise. So, when members speak about love they do mean to love the neighbor who is also poor and help them in their poverty. I am sure that there are many members who help the poor individually. And that was my point.
Calm Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 That's incorrect.Let's go over it again..."And at the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29Since you use this scripture to justify your belief that tithing should go to the poor, etc, do you agree that we should pay tithing only every three years? Do you think the Israelites paid tithing only every three years? If not, then what is the significance of the designation "at the end of three years" and "of thine increase the same year"?
thesometimesaint Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) http://lds.org/servi...church?lang=engWhile helping the poor is a commendable goal. It is but one of the Four Fold Mission of the Church. We do say that loudly and clearly.Ps; Even Christ had a treasurer. Edited November 19, 2011 by thesometimesaint
CV75 Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Even Christ had a treasurer.And John 13:28-30 gives some insight into how transparent Jesus was with His group’s (church’s) mortal expenditures. It is clear that not even the other eleven knew exactly how He had instructed Judas to spend, whether it was for victuals or to give to the poor, Judas’ corruption aside. Likewise, it was not transparent as to how He fed four and five thousand, but not feed the many more thousands of even more hungry in the world.
Calm Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) Assuming "God is LOVE" is to be interpreted as taking care of the poor and needy as a top priority, before even the needs of building up God's kingdom or even limiting it to being the number one priority of what to do with our increase, why wasn't/isn't it God's top priority? Certainly we have seen him supply food in miraculous ways such as when he fed the multitude or when he sent manna or when Elijah was fed in the cave and then by the widow. So why hasn't he set up the earth so the poor and needy have all the food they need?And since he hasn't does this mean he's automatically neglecting the poor? Is he be ing greedy by instructing the Israelites to build lavish temples considering how many were likely at poverty/barely subsistence level? Is he being greedy if it is him who is instructing the construction of temples today (Joseph Smith had the design of one of the first temples revealed to him, IIRC, at a time when the money the Church spent was desperately needed by church members as well as the work to finish the Nauvoo temple even while the Saints were struggling to leave their homes yet again.). So is God GREED as much as he is LOVE according to HA's standard....it would seem so from what she has said so far, but I assume there is some qualifier she applies so this is not so. Perhaps she will inform us of what it is.... Edited November 19, 2011 by calmoriah
Brade Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 My remaining question to critics of the handling of LDS tithes and offerings is this...Other than opening the books so you can see for yourself what evidence if greed and wrongdoing is there in LDS Church finances and how would you do things differently to correct these perceived wrongdoings?I would be very surprised to learn of outright wrongdoing with respect to LDS finances.If there are places where we are truly breaking our own rules or less effective than we could be I'd like to learn and do better. If there are not I'd like the unfounded accusations against the Church to stop.Non-member friends of mine familiar with the Church and it's activities have shared with me their perception and the best way I can characterize it is that to them there seems to be an inconsistency between the Church's use of money and attitude toward it and what Jesus and his disciples have to say about it in the New Testament. My hunch is that if a poll of non-member Americans were done we would see that as a common response among those who know of the Church. I think there's a general perception that the Church spends a lot of money on public relations, various for profit business ventures, expensive buildings, land, etc. And on the face of it, I think that's all seen as at odds with the common understanding of what's written in the New Testament. I think people have a similar perception of the Catholic Church.
KevinG Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 Some critics are still tap dancing around the evidence for greed and misappropriation. That was the accusation I asked about in the OP.I appreciate those critics honest enough to say they would be surprised or they don't believe there is greed or misappropriation of funds.(Other issues of perception and transperancy are fair criticisms in my opinion even if I don't agree with the critics conclusions or assumptions.)
HeatherAnn Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) Calmoriah,That's an excellent point... since God "commanded" his people to kill men, women and children (genoicide) & take all of their lands & possessions... is God "greedy"?You would think so, if GOD did in fact command that.It's really confusing, isn't it? Because right before JOSHUA "said" God commanded them to commit such stealings & killings, and while Moses was still alive, God had commanded Moses "Thou shalt not make any engraven image" (which they did anyway) & "Thou shalt not kill" & "Thou shalt not steal" - which they did anyway. (Exodus 20: 4, 6, 8 ) Hm... So which is it... steal & kill or NOT?How can we know what is of God & what isn't?People have & still warp scriptures to meet their carnal desires.Would true commandments of God command anything that wasn't GOoD?Jesus clarified this..."Master, which is the great commandment in the law?Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two comamndments hang all the law and the prophets."-Matthew 22:36-40So... what this means is that all laws and prophet's commands are subservient to these 2 commandments.Are we only commanded to love those in our group - those we like only? No!"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." -Matthew 5: 43-44Because of lds church financial secrecy, separate donation entries for tithing and humanitarian/fast offering - it seems that the church ldeaders may be neglecting those many in need (Almost 1/7 of the world are starving!)...by misallocating tithes, which (at least 1/3) are specifically intended for the poor. "At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, wich are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deuteronomy 14:28,29Now let's check this TITHING allocation command for the poor - to see if it is in compliance & harmony with the greatest commandment of all (which hang all the laws and the prophets) - to love God and to love others as ourselves. Yes! It is in compliance and harmony!So... if we, or church leaders neglect to love & care for the poor, as specifically instructed, what does that mean?"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." -Matthew 25: 40, 45You can argue this all day every day... but God's greatest commandments are plain & they make sense, even for those who are not religious - if everyone loved others as they loved themselves, this world would be a much better place.. indeed, "Zion, where there is no poor among them." - Moses 7:18 Edited November 19, 2011 by HeatherAnn 1
HeatherAnn Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Throughout scriptures, we are repeatedly commanded to help the poor & that at least 1/3 of tithes are to be used specifically for the poor.Doing otherwise is "robbing" God by robbing the poor. This is in agreement with the greatest commandments - which hang all the laws and the prophets, to love God and others as ourselves.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc2L2DkIK-w&feature=related
KevinG Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 Because of lds church financial secrecy, separate donation entries for tithing and humanitarian/fast offering - it seems that the church ldeaders may be neglecting those many in need (Almost 1/7 of the world are starving!)...by misallocating tithes, which (at least 1/3) are specifically intended for the poor. Evidence of this serious accusation is...?
Calm Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 If God's top priority is to care for the poor and needy, then why didn't he structure the world so there were no poor or needy? Why doesn't food fall from heaven every day?
ERayR Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I'll let the scholars correct you on this point if they haven't already.They already have. She is very reluctant to listen.
ERayR Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 To HeatherAnn and those who want detailed disclosure: If you were to come upon a begger on the street who asked for money to buy food and you felt it in your heart to give him a 20 dollar bill would you expect him to account for how he spent his money?
Nominee Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 http://www.cumorah.com/etexts/lordstenth.txtAbove is a link to "The Lord's Tenth by James E. Talmage."It is a short and good read.I believe the church is organized and functioning according to the will of God. I have seen NO EVIDENCE that the church misuses funds against the will of God. 1
Nominee Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 To HeatherAnn and those who want detailed disclosure:If you were to come upon a begger on the street who asked for money to buy food and you felt it in your heart to give him a 20 dollar bill would you expect him to account for how he spent his money?I know many, many people who would. I am someone who would never think of doing such a thing. I would not be surprized if your responses to this post were extremely varied.
ERayR Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I know many, many people who would. I am someone who would never think of doing such a thing. I would not be surprized if your responses to this post were extremely varied.If I get any.
KevinG Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 To HeatherAnn and those who want detailed disclosure:If you were to come upon a begger on the street who asked for money to buy food and you felt it in your heart to give him a 20 dollar bill would you expect him to account for how he spent his money?I usually offer to share a meal so the money isn't abused. I trust the Prophet and Bishop a little more than the average panhandler who smells of alcohol or pot.
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