Accusations Of Lds General Authority Greed And Mishandling Funds

[KevinG]

I was saddened to see the Proper Use of Church Funds thread closed down over accusations of badgering and disrespect. I ask up front that both sides of this discussion avoid ad hominem arguments against each other or the general authorities of the LDS church.

Accusations were made that the LDS general authorities and by extension the LDS church in general were greedy and not using tithing funds properly. This is a very serious allegation and one levelled by critics and those who have fallen away from the church.

When I asked for from any critic about 1) what expenditures they thought were a waste of tithing, 2) who should be in charge of disbursements if not general and local authority and 3) how critics would spend funds differently I received these answers:

1) No one can know how much money the church has because they carefully keep that secret.

2) Tithing is a separate financial category than humanitarian & fast offering donations, despite that this is against commandments given in the scriptures - for tithes to be primarily for those poor in need, & that the greatest commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves.

3) I am not a financial expert, nor would ANYONE be appropriate in responding to ALL of the needs of poverty throughout the world. Even the church, is organized like a pyramid... the precidency at top, then the 12, then the 70, (& many employees scattered throughout) - then the regional level, stake level/stake presidency, ward level/bishopric... then organizations within the ward: Relief Society, High Priest, Elder's Quorum, Primary, Young Men & Young Women, SundaySchool etc.

Regarding these answers...

1) The funds are private but their use is hardly a secret. Evidence of well built chapels, Temples, printed materials, missionary work and other infrastructure for the use of church members and their surrounding communities is all over the world. Agree or disagree the many businesses, welfare institutions and educational institutions the church runs increase and multiply the offerings of the Saints. Pure Religion - LDS Church Welfare since 1930

As to the accusation that there is greed and misuse involved I call for evidence of any misuse of tithing funds that was not answered with quick discipline from church authorities for those involved. A serious charge like greed or use of funds against the laws of God requires more evidence than lack of visibility to every critic who would like to see the details of expenditures.

As has already been pointed out: Tithes are separate from fast offerings for the poor and needy in this dispensation and in ancient Israel. Even in that case it has also been pointed out that tithes are used to supplement fast offerings in poor areas of the church and have been funnelled into humanitarian aid projects - never the other way around.

2) I'm not sure what saying tithes are different from fast offerings has to do with who should be in charge of them if not Prophets, Apostles, 70s, Auxilliary General Authorities, Stake Presidents, Bishops and Relief Society Presidents. If not those brethren and Sisters then who should be in charge?

3) Im not sure why the pyramidal structure of an organization has to do with how critics feel the church should handle its finances better? Being an organizational expert for a living has me scratching my head as to how an organization with centralized leadership could be anything other than a pyramid- but having said that there is a ton of authority left in the hands of Stakes and Wards to disburse their own funds. Salt lake will collect and distribute depending on local surplus and shortcomings, but other than tight controls over receipts and accounting Salt lake City leaves the authority for local needs in local hands.

---

My remaining question to critics of the handling of LDS tithes and offerings is this...

Other than opening the books so you can see for yourself what evidence if greed and wrongdoing is there in LDS Church finances and how would you do things differently to correct these perceived wrongdoings?

If there are places where we are truly breaking our own rules or less effective than we could be I'd like to learn and do better. If there are not I'd like the unfounded accusations against the Church to stop.

(remember participants please avoid personal remarks that could derail this discussion).

[HeatherAnn]

I was saddened to see the Proper Use of Church Funds thread closed down over accusations of badgering and disrespect. I ask up front that both sides of this discussion avoid ad hominem arguments against each other or the general authorities of the LDS church.

Accusations were made that the LDS general authorities and by extension the LDS church in general were greedy and not using tithing funds properly. This is a very serious allegation and one levelled by critics and those who have fallen away from the church.

I too, hope that this thread is more respectful.

Correction: it is not just "those who have fallen away from the church" - but many members within the church are concerned about the proper use of church funds...

http://forum.neworde...+finances+money

(Edit: I am an active, callings holding member & considered a full-tithe payer (since my husband pays tithing & is the main provider. I go to church each Sunday, as well as other midweek activites. I take the gospel to heart. I'm concerned & want to ensure that tithes are spent as God wants, & how it's been clearly stated in scripture - to help the poor, many who are in life-or-death need.)

The scriptures clearly indicate how tithes are to be spent & it is in complete harmony with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves...

"thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

Even if the tithes are commanded to be only 1/3 of the church's income, the church is estimated to be spending about 1% (1/100) of it's income in causes for the poor. This is insufficient.

There are untold health concerns & living conditions that need our love & care/tithes... hunger is one major one: "In round numbers there are 7 billion people in the world. Thus, with an estimated 925 million hungry people in the world, 13.1 percent, or almost 1 in 7 people are hungry."

http://www.worldhung...acts%202002.htm

Edited November 19, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Deborah]

Even if the tithes are commanded to be only 1/3 of the church's income, the church is estimated to be spending about 1% (1/100) of it's income in causes for the poor. This is insufficient.

CFR. Who estimates and who determines what per cent is spent on causes for the poor, given that you admit the books are not open to the public. Fast Offering and Humanitarian Aid goes 100% to help the poor. How many times do we have to tell you tithing is to run the infrastructure of the church and these funds are separate. Many times the church buildings have been opened to shelter those displaced in natural disasters? What if we didn't have these buildings?

As has been pointed out time and again your interpretation of the scripture is inaccurate and in any case does not apply to how tithing funds are to be used today, per current revelation.

Loving God also means having houses of worship in which the saints can gather and renew covenants and learn the gospel principles which lead them to salvation. Temples are for the salvation of the dead as well as the progression of the living and if we don't have those we are unable to fulfill our duties as part of the mission of the church.

I suggest those who complain set the example and sell all that they have and give it to the poor and see how long their charity helps others, including keeping themselves solvent to further help others.

[ERayR]

I too, hope that this thread is more respectful.

Correction: it is not just "those who have fallen away from the church" - but many members within the church are concerned about the proper use of church funds...

http://forum.neworde...+finances+money

The scriptures clearly indicate how tithes are to be spent & it is in complete harmony with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves...

"thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

Even if the tithes are commanded to be only 1/3 of the church's income, the church is estimated to be spending about 1% (1/100) of it's income in causes for the poor. This is insufficient.

There are untold health concerns & living conditions that need our love & care/tithes... hunger is one major one: "In round numbers there are 7 billion people in the world. Thus, with an estimated 925 million hungry people in the world, 13.1 percent, or almost 1 in 7 people are hungry."

http://www.worldhung...acts%202002.htm

HeatherAnn in order to get some prospective what is it exactly (programs you want instituted, money funneled to where) done before you would be satisfied the church is doing enough?

[ERayR]

CFR. Who estimates and who determines what per cent is spent on causes for the poor, given that you admit the books are not open to the public. Fast Offering and Humanitarian Aid goes 100% to help the poor. How many times do we have to tell you tithing is to run the infrastructure of the church and these funds are separate. Many times the church buildings have been opened to shelter those displaced in natural disasters? What if we didn't have these buildings?

As has been pointed out time and again your interpretation of the scripture is inaccurate and in any case does not apply to how tithing funds are to be used today, per current revelation.

Loving God also means having houses of worship in which the saints can gather and renew covenants and learn the gospel principles which lead them to salvation. Temples are for the salvation of the dead as well as the progression of the living and if we don't have those we are unable to fulfill our duties as part of the mission of the church.

I suggest those who complain set the example and sell all that they have and give it to the poor and see how long their charity helps others, including keeping themselves solvent to further help others.

In addition all administrative costs for the welfare programs are paid out of administrative funds i.e tithing.

[KevinG]

I too, hope that this thread is more respectful.

I want you to know I wasn't trying to badger you. My call for answers was open to any critic who felt the same way about church funds.

Correction: it is not just "those who have fallen away from the church" - but many members within the church are concerned about the proper use of church funds...

Mea Culpa- All of the above, Uber-Mormon, Fringe-Mormon, Post-Mormon and Never-Mormon critics alike!

The scriptures clearly indicate how tithes are to be spent & it is in complete harmony with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves...

"thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

This is being done. All fast offerings, tithes transferred to poor congregations to be disbursed to the poor, local charity and efforts outside tithing... all get disbursed to the poor with miniscule overhead. Food orders, bill payments, donations to Goodwill, individuals sharing with neighbors... all hallmarks of the Mormons.

Lehi was trying to explain the difference between tithes and offerings anciently and today. Our fast offerings are the equivelent of the third year tithe and they happen all the time not just in the third year.

Even using your reference alone without the context of other verses the LDS church does take their tithe surplus and donate it for humanitarian causes and local poverty relief.

Even if the tithes are commanded to be only 1/3 of the church's income, the church is estimated to be spending about 1% (1/100) of it's income in causes for the poor. This is insufficient.

I would be very interested in seeing your sources for income and expenditure estimates. On the face of it a 1/3 tithing rate of 14,000,000 souls making an average income of $7000 (world average from Boston Globe) adjusted up for US membership $45,000, adjusted down for children and housewives with no income... Would make a wild estimate of ???

Well help me with this one please... what are your figures and sources?

There are untold health concerns & living conditions that need our love & care/tithes... hunger is one major one: "In round numbers there are 7 billion people in the world. Thus, with an estimated 925 million hungry people in the world, 13.1 percent, or almost 1 in 7 people are hungry."

http://www.worldhung...acts%202002.htm

I agree this is tragic. Many of those starving are in trouble because their own government prevents aid from going to the proper places. Where we can help we have helped. Water treatement and green energy in Africa... Shipments of food and clothing for disasters and poor areas of the world... Front lines disaster relief by LDS... Missionaries spending a good percentage of their time in service rather than preaching...

If you see an area where we are not doing enough - how would you suggest we do more?

[cinepro]

I've always felt that it would be great if the Church published numbers similar to the way the Seventh-day Adventists do on their website:

Contributions In US Dollars

Tithe

$1,891,325,291

Tithe Per Capita

$120.07

Sabbath School Mission Offerings

$61,198,264

Total Tithe and Offerings

$2,710,018,856

Total Tithe and Offerings Per Capita

$172.05

http://www.adventist...ures/index.html

As far as I know, making such statistics public hasn't opened them up to undue criticism. They appear to be doing quite well.

Edited November 18, 2011 by cinepro

[KevinG]

I've always felt that it would be great if the Church published numbers similar to the way the Seventh-day Adventists do on their website:

As far as I know, making such statistics public hasn't opened them up to undue criticism. They appear to be doing quite well.

Do you think that would curb accusations of greed and misuse of funds?

It looks like the Adventists are trying to address the visibility issue...

"I've never really thought about it," Fischer says of the 10 percent of her income she donates to the Adventist world church. "I think most of the tithe goes to pay pastors but I don't really know how it works." She pauses before adding, "I sure hope they're doing the right thing."

Fischer's sketchy understanding of tithe distribution doesn't surprise Gerry Karst, a world church vice president. "If you asked your average pastor, church member or even [administrator] where tithe goes and what it does, I don't doubt you would find very few who would be able to answer confidently," says Karst, who also chairs the church's Use of Tithe Study Commission.

How is Your Tithe Used? Church Commission Examining Use of Contributions

I found some more pointed criticism of their expenses but those come from sources similar to anti-Mormon sites and I don't think they are any more credible than anti-Mormon claims.

Edited November 18, 2011 by DaddyG

[Analytics]

The ECFA (Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability) is an accreditation agency for Evangelical churches and charities. To belong to this mainstream evangelical organization, a church or charity must promise to provide financial statements to anyone who asks.

In explaining why, they say,

Financial disclosure is not only an accepted, expected, and required form of accountability in society at large, but it also represents the even higher standard of openness for Christian organizations operating in the forum of the Church. It may be true that public disclosure of financial information is required, in part, to protect the donor public. While this is the reason most often given to justify governmental regulation, the reputation of the Christian ministry in general is at stake.

Public disclosure protects Christian ministry from the danger of claiming ownership of God’s gifts. It also protects us from the temptation to acquire assets as our lasting goal. Furthermore, the availability of financial statements promotes responsible Christian stewardship over assets as donors seek to make monetary investments in the work of the Kingdom. Simply put, Christian organizations provide current financial statements to anyone who submits a written request for them because it is the right thing to do.

They provide loads of scritural justification for this position on their website, if you are into that kind of thing:

http://www.ecfa.org/Content/Comment5

I don't have any evidence that the LDS Church does anything wrong with their money, but folks who believe in the Bible might think that the Church's secretness about its money is evidence in and of itself:

Men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

John 3:19-20

Edited November 18, 2011 by Analytics

[KevinG]

I can see positives and negatives about open publication of LDS Church financials. But I'm still not sure the unfounded calls of greed and misuse of funds would ever go away. The targets and nit picking would just be more specific to budget line items people disagreed with.

LDS history has known outside agents to use threats against and seisure of our property and holdings in order to prevent us from carrying out what we are commanded to do.

While I see this accreditation agency as a positive thing I don't see a huge difference from the LDS Church using an internationally recognized accounting firm to audit its books.

As far as the original purpose of this thread... What evidence of abuse justifies the leap from "lack of visibility" to full blown accusations of greed and misuse on the part of LDS Church officials?

Edited November 18, 2011 by DaddyG

[T-Shirt]

Men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

John 3:19-20

Matthew 6

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

[Analytics]

I can see positives and negatives about open publication of LDS Church financials. But I'm still not sure the unfounded calls of greed and misuse of funds would ever go away. The targets and nit picking would just be more specific to budget line items people disagreed with.

What are the negatives about following the "accepted, expected, and required form of accountability in society at large"?

It's true that criticism would never go away. But if your policy was one of openness, you'd be able to respond to accusations as Jesus did:

I have spoken openly to the world . . . I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret (John 18:20).

[KevinG]

I showed above that the Adventists who openly delacre their income still have members and critics questioning where the money is going.

At some level there must be confidentiality on who donates and receives funding. I like the system where the Bishop can help the needy among his congregation without having to disclose to the outside world who is receiving help. The church itself keeps very careful records and insures compliance to generally applied accounting principles without violating the privacy of the needy.

Where is the justification for using this privacy as the basis for accusing the General Authorities of "greed" and misappropriation?

Edited November 18, 2011 by DaddyG

[Analytics]

I showed above that the Adventists who openly delacre their income still have members and critics questioning where the money is going.

At some level there must be confidentiality on who donates and receives funding. I like the system where the Bishop can help the needy among his congregation without having to disclose to the outside world who is receiving help. The church itself keeps very careful records and insures compliance to generally applied accounting principles without violating the privacy of the needy.

Where is the justification for using this privacy as the basis for accusing the General Authorities of "greed" and misappropriation?

The confidentiality of people who donate and receive help is a different issue. When they say, "Christian organizations provide current financial statements to anyone who submits a written request for them because it is the right thing to do," they aren't implying that they must disclose individual donnors or recipients of aid. Rather, they are implying that they must provide income statements and balance sheets that show the church's income, expenses, and assets.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Analytics

[thesometimesaint]

Analytics:

Actually Jesus taught in parables. So as to not condemn those that didn't understand. Further he commanded some to tell it to no man.

[Analytics]

Actually Jesus taught in parables. So as to not condemn those that didn't understand. Further he commanded some to tell it to no man.

The scriptures I've used in this thread are the ones Evangelicals use to explain why they think "Christian organizations provide current financial statements to anyone who submits a written request for them because it is the right thing to do."

If you disagree with their convictions on financial disclosure or with their interpretation of the scriptures, that's fine. Just food for thought.

[HeatherAnn]

CFR. Who estimates and who determines what per cent is spent on causes for the poor, given that you admit the books are not open to the public. Fast Offering and Humanitarian Aid goes 100% to help the poor. How many times do we have to tell you tithing is to run the infrastructure of the church and these funds are separate...

Deborah,

Both of us are guessing since the church keeps its finances secret (which, IMO, is suspect). Still, there have been people who have been able to gather information, like reporter S.C. Gwynne who was given access to inside church sources and acquired some official information on assets and internal operations. He & others interviewed Presiding Bishop David Burton & Rodney Brady, head of Deseret Management Corporation, which holds most of the church's subsidiary companies, its media holdings, farm and ranch system, life insurance company, and other interests. Richard Ostling also obtained some basic financial information in his interview with the late Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley. Then there have been other sources who prefer to remain anonymous.

It's estimated that the church spends about 1% for the poor (I'm not sure if that is 1% of their total assets or income)...

http://www.salamande...m/foyer/budget/

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_mormon_money_section_2.html

Moreover, we know that tithing is a separate category on the donation slip from humanitarian and fast offerings.

Take an educated guess: Which would likely be a larger sum - tithing...10% required of the over 14,000,00 members in order to be in good standing/temple entry... OR humanitarian and fast offerings which are less "mandatory" for "good standing" status & not required for temple entry? It appears (by the look of tithing & other donation slips) - that tithing is not used for the poor, since there are 2 separate categories for such donations. Yet, we are commanded in scripture to pay tithing to the poor...

"And at the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

Again, it is specified that TITHES (not extra donations, but TITHES) are supposed to go to the poor. It does say that the 3rd year... so it could mean (although I'm not sure) that 1/3 of tithes should go to the poor. Either way, MUCH more needs to go to help the poor than is currently, especially considering the extreme need, world-wide. As members, many of us are maxed out - giving all we can - & it is a pleasure to give, when we know it is going for GOoD. If we don't know that it is going for GoOD, & if we don't demand financial accountability & transparency, then we are contributing to "robbing" from God/the poor.

Edited November 19, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[ERayR]

HeatherAnn are you going to answer the questions posed to you in this thread?

[Deborah]

HeatherAnn are you going to answer the questions posed to you in this thread?

It sounds like she is just going to use the same stuff she's already given and has already been refuted.

[HeatherAnn]

I will answer those who show respect, not those who don't.

My gosh, I just barely answered one post - you're already pestering me. And Deborah, why do you feel the need to speak as if I'm not participating on this thread & put me down to someone else? Is that something a Christian would do?

Anyone investigating the church: TAKE NOTES on how you might be treated if you question anything about the church, as I have.

I & others have already explained... we need financial transparency, which the church withholds.

Even Cinepro acknowledges this.

Edited November 19, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[CV75]

The scriptures clearly indicate how tithes are to be spent & it is in complete harmony with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves...

"thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

The Lord said in D&C 119:2 that tithing is “for the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.” I think the Church is using tithing funds for those purposes.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 addresses something else more akin to fast and humanitarian offerings. The other verses touching on tithe and rest of the chapter warrant a thread of their own.

Tithing can be used to relieve the poor when other individual, local and general sources are insufficient. This is because caring for the poor and needy is every individual’s responsibility and is much broader than the principle of the tithe and the keys to manage of it.

It is incumbent upon LDS members, families, Church units and the Church in general (in that order) to care for the poor. These are the principles of "provident living." It is more essential, in a way, than tithing because not everyone can pay tithing, and we do not care for the poor by tithing. We care for the poor through the temporal and material expression of charity.

This expression of charity builds us into Christ-like people, draws the poor to Christ and into the Church (where the exalted purpose of the tithe is realized—temple covenants), and provides for the poor within the Church. The Church cannot keep this commandment for us, and for this reason, teaches us to pay a generous fast offering and care for the poor and needy through any means and opportunity at our disposal, including the other contribution categories that also help the poor.

[CV75]

we need financial transparancy

That would not be faith and not a treasure of any kind.

Edited November 19, 2011 by CV75

[cdowis]

I have spoken openly to the world . . . I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret (John 18:20).

I find it interesting that those critics who quote the Bible usually know very little about what is actually in the Bible.

Please give us a summary of the 40 days of teaching things of the kingdom from the Saviour's visit with the apostles after the resurrection (Acts chapter 1). Can you give us a summary, a few paragraphs, or even just a sentence from those forty days. The fact is that He taught the disciples in secret and we know absolutely nothing about what He taught them during that time.

Get back to us when you know what you are talking about.

[cdowis]

The disposition of the tithing is done with the consultation of the Prophet and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. Why do we need the world, the critics, the antimormons to advise them on how to disperse those funds. Thanks but we don't need your help.

Madelyn O'Hara advised the church, for example, to close down all the church buildings and use them to house the poor and to assist the elderly. No need for temples, just use them for subsidized housing. Use the missionary funds for clean air.

Use all the money we pay the bishops to..... wait! We don't pay the bishops anything.

Edited November 19, 2011 by cdowis

[selek1]

It sounds like she is just going to use the same stuff she's already given and has already been refuted.

Why would she do anything different?

I mean, it's not as though she's actually trying to learn or understand anything,

Both her original rant and her presence in this thread were not attempts at earnest discussion- they were preaching.

The original thread- and her careful dodges in this one- are nothing more or less than an attempt to "call this people to repentance"- and accept the Gospel accorging to to HeatherAnn.

She's not here to learn or discuss, but to vent her frustrations and sow discord and doubt amongst the Latter-day faithful.

In short, she's trolling and throwing bombs.

Note that despite repeated demands and calls for reference- she's offered not one substantive fact to support her allegations of wrongdoing by the Saints.

Everything is based on "estimates" and her personal, private interpretation of Scriptures.

I will answer those who show respect, not those who don't.

Throwing around unfounded allegations of greed, dishonesty, and malfeasance is NOT "respectful".

Is that something a Christian would do?

Would a Christian repeatedly bear false witness against people she doesn't know? Would a Christian spread vicious and hateful gossip based only on her own small-minded suspicions about others?

You've accused and smeared our leaders HeatherAnn, without providing any evidence against them- only rumor, gossip, and innuendo.

Who've questioned the intelligence, morality, and faith of everyone and everybody who disagrees with you, and pontificated about what a "true Christian" would do- and then complained that we're not being "respectful".

Physician, heal thyself.

Edited November 19, 2011 by selek1