Accusations Of Lds General Authority Greed And Mishandling Funds

[Calm]

According to stats, there are 150,000 homeless in Canada, overall population is 34,000,000 or a little more than10% of the US.

Homeless in the US was counted at 672,000 in January 2007, overall population is about 313,000,000.

Canada has pretty much universal health care funded by income tax. One would think their rate of homelessness would be less than ours if catastrophic medical bills were the primary cause of poverty and homelessness.

Unfortunately the problem is much, much more complex.

[HeatherAnn]

When we love, we want to do what is best in the big, word-wide, eternal picture.

Currently, we in the US, are spoiled compared to most people in this world.

If we were genuinely interested in truth & integrity, we'd reconsider how we live... how it effects others, around us, in our community & even in the world (ie... how many things we buy are "made in China"?... We love our power/gas... yet at what cost does the oil to produce it come at?) We need to consider where our tithes go... not just blindly accept the financial secrecy of the church.

There are many habits we could/should reconsider if we were interested in loving everyone, as God would have us.

One very simple measure is making sure that our tithes are spent as directed by God in scriptures - that at least 1/3 of them should be for the poor. That's reasonable, & it's also in harmony with the greatest commandements (which are priority over all "laws & prophets")... to love God & love others as ourselves. Considering there are over 14,000,000 members - - the tithes of 2/3 (for the use of other church needs) is more than sufficient, IMO.

"thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

Edited November 20, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[HeatherAnn]

HeatherAnn and all others who feel enough is not being done, I suggest you take personal responsibility, sell all that you have and go distribute it to the poor. Or join an organization that will send you to one of those impoverished countries and personally help educate the people. Until you do that you have no right to judge how much others are doing or not doing to help the poor and to do so is self-righteous and to further judge the authorities of the church who carry the great responsibility of distributing church monies is arrogant and shows ignorance of how the world works.

Deborah,

How do you know what I have given? How do you know where I've been or what I've done? Do you know? How could you since you don't even know me?

Not only that, you completely misinterpreted me & judged me for that.

What I have repeatedly explained is what is written in scriptures - & that CHURCH LEADERS (not members who are already maxed out in so many ways)... CHURCH LEADERS... need to spend the money in accordance with divine command - that 1/3 is for the poor.

Either you are working for the church, or your ego is so tightly connected to any criticism of the church - otherwise you would see what is so clear in scriptures...

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE." -1John 4:8

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...

Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

- Matt 25: 40, 45

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:36-40

"A new commandment i give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." -John 13:34-35

"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings." - Malachi 3:8

"thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

***Why do I keep repeating this? Because some don't get it... & many of those almost 1,000,000,000 who are starving to death probably don't have internet access nor have means to communicate their need...

"Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.

Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." -

Proverbs 31:8-9

The church leaders are WRONGFULLY keeping church finances SECRET.

WHY?

What do they have to hide?

Edited November 20, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[HeatherAnn]

[HeatherAnn]

Is feeding the poor the only way we show God's Love?

Is this our only duty as members of Christ's Kingdom?

Our duty is to love... that is our top priority... to love God & to love others as ourselves... on these commandments "hang all the laws and the prophets." - Matthew 22:36-40

You're right - there are many other ways to show that we love. Yet, God must believe helping the poor with tithes was important enough to specify exactly who to help, how much to give & in what percentage (30%) was just for the poor...

"And at the end of 3 years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

If we are to carry the Gospel into all the world and preach in every tongue and to every people; doesn't this show God's Love and should be part of tithing?

Sure - 70% of the church's it's many assets/investments/corporations & the tithing/donations of over 14,000,000 members is more than sufficient.

Is owning corporations a sin?

Of course not... yet everything is in context. Did Jesus keep himself occupied with businesses, & finances - did his apostles do so also? No.

The Perpetual Education Fund (I know not part of tithing, but I donate) does more to amiliorate suffering than throwing money at a problem.

I agree!

It's a great program that needs more financing.

In fact, there are others who have started similar programs at all types of levels... Microfinance...

http://www.kiva.org/about/microfinance

How can the donations of 0.05% of the worlds population make any difference? ... What can this small amount do?

Apparently plenty, otherwise, church leaders would be open about their finances. Why aren't they? What are they hiding?

With over 14,000,000 members - even if just 1/2 of those paid tithing, that is a lot!

Moreover, with the attitude, "What can this small amount do?" - nobody would do anything to help. If you can make the world better for just one person, the world is a little better. Then consider how much better if everyone did that? Consider how much better if the church contributed more to efforts of poverty relief - then they'd be more proud of their finances instead of hiding it.

Edited November 20, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Pahoran]

Deborah,

How do you know what I have given? How do you know where I've been or what I've done? Do you know? How could you since you don't even know me?

Not only that, you completely misinterpreted me & judged me for that.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

As long as you continue to pass unrighteous judgement upon the Lord's servants based upon your own lack of knowledge of what they have given, where they have been or what they have done, you absolutely forfeit any right to complain when others do the same to you, if indeed that is what has happened.

What I have repeatedly explained is what is written in scriptures - & that CHURCH LEADERS (not members who are already maxed out in so many ways)... CHURCH LEADERS... need to spend the money in accordance with divine command - that 1/3 is for the poor.

Either you are working for the church, or your ego is so tightly connected to any criticism of the church - otherwise you would see what is so clear in scriptures...

It is quite astonishingly arrogant for you to pass judgement upon everyone who disagrees with your forced, agenda-driven interpretations of scripture.

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE." -1John 4:8

The notion that "love" is determined by how much money the Church spends on what causes is fatuous, superficial and absurd.

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...

Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

- Matt 25: 40, 45

You are abusing this scripture.

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:36-40

You are abusing this scripture.

"A new commandment i give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." -John 13:34-35

You are abusing this scripture.

"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings." - Malachi 3:8

You are outrageously and brazenly abusing this scripture.

You choose to give your money to whatever causes might assuage your middle-class guilt, and that is your right. But when you do so and then pretend that by so doing you have paid tithing, it is you who has robbed God.

And having done so, you have the temerity to accuse us of your own sin.

"thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

***Why do I keep repeating this? Because some don't get it... & many of those almost 1,000,000,000 who are starving to death probably don't have internet access nor have means to communicate their need...

The reason you keep repeating it is that this is a standard tactic of yours. Whenever you want to bring some agitprop against the Church, you keep on repeating the same passages, relying upon the same discredited eisegesis thereof, airily ignoring the fact that informed people disagree with you.

Contrary to your arrogant assumption, your interpretation is not so self-evidently true as to ensure that they only way to disagree with you is if we "don't get it." The fact is that we do get it.

Was the third-year tithe supposed to feed the starving billion?

No. It was not.

It was supposed to provide for the poor of Israel. That's what that "which are within thy gates" explicitly means.

What is its applicability to our day?

It is that we have a responsibility to care for our own: namely, for the needy in our own wards and stakes.

We can, and we do, help others to the extent of our ability, but the specific provision we are supposed to make for the care of the needy is to provide for needy Latter-day Saints.

"Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.

Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." -

Proverbs 31:8-9

And after quoting that, you have the chutzpah to pronounce the following unrighteous judgement:

The church leaders are WRONGFULLY keeping church finances SECRET.

Who says that they are doing so "WRONGFULLY?" Do you suppose that you can prove your point merely by SHOUTING?

WHY?

What do they have to hide?

You have not a shred of evidence that they have anything to hide.

Regards,

Pahoran

[volgadon]

Of course not... yet everything is in context. Did Jesus keep himself occupied with businesses, & finances - did his apostles do so also? No.

No, they appointed others to do so.

[volgadon]

Our duty is to love... that is our top priority... to love God & to love others as ourselves... on these commandments "hang all the laws and the prophets." - Matthew 22:36-40

You ignored the question on the other thread. How does attacking the integrity of others fit into your philosophy of love?

[bu11fr0g]

Bankruptcy is caused by medical problems because the only way to get government coverage is to get rid of all of your assets but your home and vehicle. This does not cause homelessness or starvation.

Leading causes of hunger are in many cases dealt with directly by the church tithing funds and missionary work including:

substance abuse

domestic violence

unemployment services

education

the church does not do as good a job with mental illness, but institutionally helps in many ways.

heatherann has her own agenda which i believe would be much less effective. her own video that she likes to repeat is from a political problem, not a problem of financial resources. wrong place to personally spend charity money in my opinion.

[HeatherAnn]

You have not a shred of evidence that they have anything to hide.

Yes, the evidence that they hide their finances. Why hide it if there's nothing to hide?

I went to the church office building, asked for a church financial report but was told they don't disclose church finances.

[bu11fr0g]

Just as an FYI, the Christian organization that puts on the video that HeatherAnn posts has relief operations in the following places, nearly all of which have problems exclusively from political issues.

Horn of Africa

Children and families across the Horn of Africa are struggling to survive. Crops aren’t growing. Livestock is dying. And the price of staple foods is skyrocketing. Learn More

Designate your funds to Horn of Africa

Afghanistan

Despite vast natural resources, Afghanistan is saddled with extreme poverty and some of the lowest living standards in the world. Learn More

Designate your funds to Afghanistan

Burundi

From 1994 to 2006, Burundi was embroiled in a violent civil war that resulted in the deaths of more than 300,000 people and the displacement of nearly 1 million. Learn More

Designate your funds to Burundi

Haiti

On January 12, 2010, a 7.0-magnitude earthquake struck Haiti — killing more than 220,000 people, displacing at least 1.5 million from their homes, and devastating the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. Learn More

Designate your funds to Haiti

Malawi

One of the world’s most densely populated and least developed countries, Malawi faces severe, widespread poverty. Learn More

Designate your funds to Malawi

Democratic Republic of Congo

Home to one of the world’s most devastating civil wars, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) faces many challenges today including continuous rebel conflicts and a resulting influx of refugees. Learn more

Designate your funds to DRC

Zimbabwe

A history of political strife and the victim of natural disasters, this country is burdened with extreme poverty. More than 80% of Zimbabweans live below the poverty line. Learn More

Designate your funds to Zimbabwe

Mongolia

Mongolia, the world’s second largest landlocked country, is plagued by poor economic growth, corruption, and inflation. Learn More

Designate your funds to Mongolia

Pakistan

Pakistan, the sixth most populous country in the word, is not only earthquake-prone, but is also plagued with frequent flooding during the rainy season. Learn More

Designate your funds to Pakistan

[HeatherAnn]

No, they appointed others to do so.

Who? Please provide a scripture indicating Jesus appointed others to keep themselves "occupied with businesses, & finances."

Did Jesus and his disciples hide their finances too?

Did they own lots of businesses?

Did they have separate donation entries for tithing and for the poor?

No.

[HeatherAnn]

heatherann has her own agenda...

Oh, really? Then tell me, what is it? I'm curious.

What do you know about me that I don't know?

I've been to very poor areas of this world - & I've seen poverty & it breaks my heart.

I know it's commanded that 1/3 of tithes be specifically for the poor.

We have no way of knowing if the church obeys this commandment, since they suspiciously keep their finances secret.

I want the poor to be helped, as instructed by God in multiple ways. That's my agenda.

[HeatherAnn]

Pahoran,

Please explain how one can abuse a scripture by quoting it right from the King-James- (lds accepted) version of the bible?

Do you disagree with scripture?

Do you think we should leave scriptures out of this discussion, given that this is "Mormon dialogue"?

[volgadon]

Who?

Stephen was the name of one of them.

Please provide a scripture indicating Jesus appointed others to keep themselves "occupied with businesses, & finances."

Well, Jesus appointed Judas to take care of the purse, and we know that the apostles were the ones who searched out food and lodgings. As for the apostles appointing people to care for financial matters, see Acts 6:2.

Did Jesus and his disciples hide their finances too?

There is no indication that they made them public either.

Did they own lots of businesses?

Don't know about "lots" but some of the apostles certainly owned businesses.

Did they have separate donation entries for tithing and for the poor?

No.

If you mean today's donation slips, I don't think they had equivalent pieces of paper.

You ignored the question on the other thread. How does attacking the integrity of others fit into your philosophy of love?

[volgadon]

I've been to very poor areas of this world - & I've seen poverty & it breaks my heart.

In the interest of full disclosure, how much do you donate to the poor, where does it go to, and what percentage of your means is it?

[HeatherAnn]

Members are already paying 10% Tithing plus other donations to...

Fast Offering,

Ward Missionary Fund,

General Missionary Fund,

Book of Mormon fund,

Humanitarian Fund,

Temple Construction Fund,

Perpetual Education Fund,

Other

(Tithing Slip:)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-D-WiAaY8Ucg/TrVcqWRemfI/AAAAAAAAJzA/VvMud1xuBGk/s640/scan0019.jpg

Also, each year, members report if they are full-tithe payers or not at "tithing settlement", as well as when asked each time interviewed to enter the LDS temples. It would be nice if the church reported if they showed integrity or not - with tithing funds... & if they distribute 30% to the poor as instructed in scriptures. If not, they are robbing God by robbing the poor. - Malachi 3:8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc2L2DkIK-w

[volgadon]

Pahoran,

Please explain how one can abuse a scripture by quoting it right from the King-James- (lds accepted) version of the bible?

Here is one example.

James 2:3.

"And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:"

This must mean that only people dressed as Liberace get the good seats.

[volgadon]

In the interest of full disclosure, how much do you donate to the poor, where does it go to, and what percentage of your means is it?

You don't have to answer, of course.

[volgadon]

Do you disagree with scripture?

He disagrees with your interpretation.

[HeatherAnn]

Stephen was the name of one of them.

No... he was AFTER Jesus' time.

Well, Jesus appointed Judas to take care of the purse

And we know how that went. Judas, who was in charge of the purse, fataly betrayed Jesus for money.

There is no indication that they made them public either.

Jesus taught to be honest and to not rob from the poor, but to help them.

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Don't know about "lots" but some of the apostles certainly owned businesses.

You mean, those who "straightway left their nets, and followed him"? -Matt 4:20

If you mean today's donation slips, I don't think they had equivalent pieces of paper.

Let me clarify for you: Would Jesus keep all of the money for himself, for running of the church - or would he have helped the poor?

You ignored the question on the other thread. How does attacking the integrity of others fit into your philosophy of love?

Church leaders show a lack of integrity by hiding finances that should be open/honest... I see it as love by pointing out this lack, so that others might also encourage the church to show more financial integrity. In so doing, I am showing love for those who deserve & desperately need 1/3 of the tithes collected and hidden by the church.

Edited November 21, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[HeatherAnn]

You don't have to answer, of course.

Do you pay tithes to me? No.

So you're right. I don't have any moral obligation to answer that.

[volgadon]

Do you pay tithes to me? No.

So you're right. I don't have any moral obligation to answer that.

Ah, then you must have something to hide...

What you aren't getting is that once you pay tithes, that is it, it isn't your money anymore.

[volgadon]

No... he was AFTER Jesus' time.

But during the apostles' time.

And we know how that went. Judas, who was in charge of the purse, fataly betrayed Jesus for money.

Are you saying that Jesus deliberately gave him a position in order to corrupt him?

Jesus taught to be honest and to not rob from the poor, but to help them.

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

And?

You mean, those who "straightway left their nets, and followed him"? -Matt 4:20

Yes, the same ones who carried on fishing even during Jesus' mortal lifetime, and went back to it after he died.

Let me clarify for you: Would Jesus keep all of the money for himself, for running of the church - or would he have helped the poor?

Jesus would have used what was needed for running the church in whatever the circumstances were, and distributed the rest to the poor in the most responsible way. BTW, in at least one case, Jesus urged the apostles to use money for very self-serving ends, with a narry a mention of the poor.

Church leaders show a lack of integrity by hiding finances that should be open/honest...

This is a good example. The church doesn't publically disclose its finances. Those are the bare facts. You have decided that it is due to a lack of integrity. You are hiding your own finances, is it due to a lack of integrity? How can we know if you aren't showing love to the poor by hiding money from them?

[Traela]

Tithing goes toward the infrastructure of the Church, which in turn supports:

-Home and Visiting Teaching, which, when done correctly, catches and works to correct small problems before they become big ones.

-Intact marriages. One of the biggest predictors of childhood poverty in the USA is whether or not a child's parents are married.

-Ward employment specialists.

-Education. The Church strongly encourages education which in turn reduces poverty. In addition to the schools supported by the Church, each stake is supposed to have a Literacy Specialist, who helps anyone who needs improvement in their reading skills.

Then there are the various service projects promoted by individual wards and stakes, as well as the Church's encouragement of individual service and donations.

The Church actually has to be very careful with its humanitarian aid. In some areas they have been asked to donate fewer clothes, so as not to cause more problems for local businesses. And those newborn and hygiene kits have to contain exactly what is on the list, so as not to be held up at customs in various countries.

The Church is also one of the few producers of Atmit, a food given to the most severe malnutrition sufferers. Guess what? It's actually pretty cheap to produce, plus it is distributed through other charities, such as Catholic Relief. So no, the Church is not spending a whole lot of money on it. But it's usually the first food given to those starving children, once the supplies actually make it through the government hurdles and local thieves.