Nominee Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 What about someone in your ward? A member who you sit in church with, who you know could use a help even though they haven't asked you for anything?Do you say to yourself, " That is what fast offerings are for; I am sure the bishop is handling it properly." And then maybe even be sure of it by asking said member if they have spoke to the Bishop? or Do you keep said member in your daily prayers and silently and discretely slip them a $20 while shaking his/her hand and quickly saying, "Just take it, please. I love you brother/sister. If you need anything at all, call me." And know that the Lord hears all of our prayers and is also aware of his required services?
Duncan Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I think the Church almost went bankrupt in the late 50's and early 60's which necessitated the calling of N. Eldon Tanner to the First Presidency-but I don't think that it was the brethren misspending the money on themselves, it seemed the Church Building committee went crazy building new buildings all over the world. I get all this from David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Prince and Wright
cdowis Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) Throughout scriptures, we are repeatedly commanded to help the poor & that at least 1/3 of tithes are to be used specifically for the poor.1. Please give us some references in the NT about that third of tithing.2, Please show us in the NT where they gave "an accounting" of how they dispersed the funds to the public.3. I remember looking through a book, "The Vatican Secret Archives" (I believe that is the title) written by the archivist of the archive. She mentions the welfare program in the early Christian church and wrote that the LDS church is the closest to following that program of the early church. Edited November 19, 2011 by cdowis
KevinG Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 They already have. She is very reluctant to listen.
Brade Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 To HeatherAnn and those who want detailed disclosure:If you were to come upon a begger on the street who asked for money to buy food and you felt it in your heart to give him a 20 dollar bill would you expect him to account for how he spent his money?I haven't asked for detailed disclosure, so your question isn't directed at me (I think), but I often do in fact give money to beggars on the street and I don't expect them to account for how they spend the money I give them. I haven't followed this discussion very closely, but are you going to imply something like this?:If you give money to a beggar and don't expect an accounting of your charity, then if you give money to the Church you shouldn't expect an accounting of your charity.
Nominee Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I haven't asked for detailed disclosure, so your question isn't directed at me (I think), but I often do in fact give money to beggars on the street and I don't expect them to account for how they spend the money I give them. I haven't followed this discussion very closely, but are you going to imply something like this?:If you give money to a beggar and don't expect an accounting of your charity, then if you give money to the Church you shouldn't expect an accounting of your charity.Your last sentence helps me to express my view on this subject. I believe what you give to someone personally is "your charity" but I do not believe tithing is "your charity." Tithing is a law, a commandment of God. I am accountable for paying my tithing. I am not accountable for spending it. Someone else is accountable for that. Let those who will be held accountable make their choices. I have made mine. God said to pay tithes. I do.
Brade Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Your last sentence helps me to express my view on this subject. I believe what you give to someone personally is "your charity" but I do not believe tithing is "your charity." Tithing is a law, a commandment of God. I am accountable for paying my tithing. I am not accountable for spending it. Someone else is accountable for that. Let those who will be held accountable make their choices. I have made mine. God said to pay tithes. I do.Hmmm, so if I understand you correctly, you're saying that giving money to a beggar is not the same thing as giving tithing to a Church. 1
Nominee Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Hmmm, so if I understand you correctly, you're saying that giving money to a beggar is not the same thing as giving tithing to a Church.I do not consider tithing to be my act of charity.What do think regarding post #76?
Brade Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 What about someone in your ward? A member who you sit in church with, who you know could use a help even though they haven't asked you for anything?Do you say to yourself, " That is what fast offerings are for; I am sure the bishop is handling it properly."No. When I was active on several occasions I gave support to people who I knew needed it.
Brade Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I do not consider tithing to be my act of charity.So giving money to a beggar is not the same as giving tithing to a Church.
KevinG Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 So giving money to a beggar is not the same as giving tithing to a Church.Fast Offerings are more similar to giving to the poor. While surplus tithing funds can support the poor is it more of an act of consecration for building the kingdom of God on earth. They are both an act of selflessness and sacrifice but they have different purposes.
Nominee Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 So giving money to a beggar is not the same as giving tithing to a Church.No, I do not think that giving money to a beggar is the same as paying my tithing according to the will of God. Yes, I do think of the tithing I give to my Bishop in the church as being paid according to the will of God as an act of obedience more than as an act of charity.To repost from another thread, I have said:Personally, I pay tithes as an expression of obedience to God. If the money was burnt in a bucket then the one with the match may surely be held accountable for that bad move; however, it would have no effect on whether I chose to pay my tithes. I consider the church to be a conduit that allows me to fulfill my covenants with ease. I am grateful for the ability to give back to God this way, regardless of how that money is spent. It isn't about their salvation, it is about mine. "The church doesn't need the money, we need the blessings." This is what I was taught. I want to add though that I do sustain our church leaders and am in agreement with their choices. I do not pay my tithes to the church so they in any way become responsible for my committment to helping the poor. I do whatever I can to help everyone around me in any way possible and completely seperate from tithes.
KevinG Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 If the money was burnt in a bucket then the one with the match may surely be held accountable for that bad move;Hey! My Bishop offered to help pay for the Scout campout. Can I help it the boys aren't seasoned cooks yet? 1
Nominee Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I saw the reference to the beggar as saying that I do not CHOOSE to pay my tithing to the church and then demand that I have a say in how they spend MY money just as I do not give money to anyone and then demand that I have a say in how they spend MY money. It is, in fact, no longer my money.
Nominee Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Hey! My Bishop offered to help pay for the Scout campout. Can I help it the boys aren't seasoned cooks yet?
ERayR Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) I usually offer to share a meal so the money isn't abused. I trust the Prophet and Bishop a little more than the average panhandler who smells of alcohol or pot.You have changed the scenario but you have aluded to what I was rying to get at. If you don't trust the donee don't give, because once you have given it is no longer your money and you have no expectation or right to an accounting. The only time you have a right to an accounting is when you give with stipulations and tithing is not a donation with stipulations. Once it is given as tithing it belongs to the church and you no longer have any claim on it. Edited November 19, 2011 by ERayR 1
ERayR Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I haven't asked for detailed disclosure, so your question isn't directed at me (I think), but I often do in fact give money to beggars on the street and I don't expect them to account for how they spend the money I give them. I haven't followed this discussion very closely, but are you going to imply something like this?:If you give money to a beggar and don't expect an accounting of your charity, then if you give money to the Church you shouldn't expect an accounting of your charity.Something like that. If money is given witiout stipulation of accounting it is no longer your money and you have no expectation of accounting.
KevinG Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 Agreed. I think most people who paid tithing and are now complaining about its use have more trust issues with LDS leadership than they do real evidence of any abuse. Yet that doesn't stop the accusations of greed and misappropriation of tithing funds. (IMO the comments of those who never paid tithing don't merit serious consideration).
ERayR Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I do not consider tithing to be my act of charity.What do think regarding post #76?Tithing is not an act of charity yet the pricipal is the same, once given it is no longer yours.
HeatherAnn Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Evidence of this serious accusation is...?DaddyG,You just quoted it. lol"Because of lds church financial secrecy, separate donation entries for tithing and humanitarian/fast offering - it seems that the church ldeaders may be neglecting those many in need (Almost 1/7 of the world are starving!)...by misallocating tithes, which (at least 1/3) are specifically intended for the poor."Part of the issue is that we don't know where funds go.Of course some may know - like those who get their income from the church.We know that the church has many corporations & many employees - people who depend on the church for their living... so it's understandable why some don't even want to think about if the church is appropriately distributing tithings.
HeatherAnn Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Would a Christian attack another person or would a Christian turn the other cheek. The amount of justificTion for insults is just stupifying. And that the admin of the board also justify the attacks is even more stupifying. Shouldn't those who claim Gods only true church/religion live and act to a higher standard regardless of how they are treated.Thank you for sticking up for me.
HeatherAnn Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 If the church published audited financial reports, only the most wacky conspiracy theorists would accuse them of lying about it. In any case, it isn't about "winning". It's about doing what is right. In this case, the right thing to do is provide current financial reports to anybody who asks.Exactly.I think many members would agree with this.
HeatherAnn Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 If the church published its financial reports so the members could see exactly how much the church collects and what they do with it, would that motivate the Saints to donate more?Good point.
HeatherAnn Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 To me, the issue is simply this:Do we believe that we have fallible leaders, or do we not?It seems to be a tenet of apologetics that our leaders are fallible, and that God allows them to make mistakes, and do the wrong thing because they still have their agency. They can be well intentioned, but still make terrible investment decisions, or be duped by con men, or misallocate funds in all the different ways that humans make mistakes with money.And in spite of their best efforts and inspiration, it is possible for men to be called to leadership that may intentionally do the wrong thing with the money. Hopefully it's very unlikely, but it's possible.Additionally, tithing and offerings are promoted to the Church members as being an obligation because it's "God's Church", and the funds are to be used for "God's purposes". The money that people have isn't theirs, it's God's, and God wants 10% back. So the people give the Church their 10%, and it isn't really "the Church's" money, it's "God's Money" that the Church is using on His behalf. So the reason the Church should provide more detailed information about the disposition of the finances is because the money is either the people's or the Lord's, and the men who are custodians of the money are either doing what the Lord wants them to, or not, and either way it would be a good thing to make that information public.Well put, Cinepro!
HeatherAnn Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Until I see Mormons preaching about helping the needy as much as Christ did, then these criticisms will disappear. A walk through temples and chapels will reveal that the priorities of the Church are not where the priorities of Christ where (giving GAs the most charitable view of them, leaving controversies aside)....or conservative Mormons could simply say that Christ wasn't knowledgeable enough in Economics.Good points."Out of sight, Out of mind." We don't see those who are dying of hunger (almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers & sisters in this world!) - so we don't worry about it.We don't know where the church distributes the tithes & most don't worry about it...Like my mom says, "I do my part & give to the church & trust they'll use it for God's will."Yet, when it comes to our personal finances, we wouldn't do that. We must take more responsbility for spiritual finances - otherwise we're robbing God by robbing the poor.
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