Jesus The Christ, The Fifth Standard Work?

[Joseph Antley]

Were you ever taught in the Church or by members of the Church that Elder James E. Talmage's Jesus the Christ had canonical or near-canonical status? I know that growing up I was taught that Jesus the Christ could be considered scripture on par with the Standard Works.

If you ever have heard this, have you ever seen any official (or non-official) statements by General Authorities that might lead to this thinking?

Thanks!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Were you ever taught in the Church or by members of the Church that Elder James E. Talmage's Jesus the Christ had canonical or near-canonical status? I know that growing up I was taught that Jesus the Christ could be considered scripture on par with the Standard Works.

If you ever have heard this, have you ever seen any official (or non-official) statements by General Authorities that might lead to this thinking?

Thanks!

The closest I saw is that as a missionary we were allowed to read it as part of our daily study. It was approved. I have never heard that it is near canonical or that it is part of the standard works.

[Duncan]

I have heard that too and that there was discussion at the top about it but they dropped-complete hearsay though. The only GA statements that I know of are the Elder Marion Romney statement and one or a few by Elder McConkie

[Joseph Antley]

I have heard that too and that there was discussion at the top about it but they dropped-complete hearsay though. The only GA statements that I know of are the Elder Marion Romney statement and one or a few by Elder McConkie

Could you point me towards those statements? They'd be a huge help.

[WalkerW]

The only person I have ever heard say something similar to that was Truman G. Madsen in his presentation of Howard W. Hunter in the audio version of The Presidents of the Church. I never took it as reflecting an official position, but more so an observation of members' treatment of Jesus the Christ.

However, I have (quite often and from my own mother) heard the it-must-be-true-because-it-was-written-by-an-apostle-in-the-temple-at-the-request-of-the-Church line. But that's it.

And I'm a young Southerner like you: 25-year-old Texan with parents from Many, Louisiana. So, age and cultural divide can't explain the slight difference.

Edited July 26, 2011 by WalkerW

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And I'm a young Southerner like you: 25-year-old Texan with parents from Many, Louisiana. So, age and cultural divide can't explain the slight difference.

I feel dumb now. Why you say? I have almost 10 years on you and you are at least 2 times as smart as me.

[rpn]

What I recall from my youth was that Elder Talmage wrote it in the temple and was believed to be talking with the subject during its writing. When I went looking as a grown up for its origins, all I could find was that the church asked him to make lectures he'd prepared on the subject a book, he did have a space in the Salt Lake Temple where he wrote it.

[bluebell]

It's one of my most favorite books, but no, i've never heard that it's equal to scripture.

[Libs]

I'm reading 'Jesus the Christ' through, for the first time, right now, and I had never heard that (about it being almost canical).

I just, recently, finished Chapter 16, and I questioned what he said about Judas going to Outer Darkness. That is a final judgment that no man should make. So, say, many LDS, today, as well. There is controversy, today, as to Judas Iscariot's final destination. Some say, he may have been sent by the Father to play a special role (since the Atonement had to take place). Donno. But, as far as this book ever being canical, I would think there might need to be a change or two, first?

Edited July 26, 2011 by Libs

[Duncan]

Could you point me towards those statements? They'd be a huge help.

Elder Romney, Improvement Era, Nov. 1962 and Elder McConkie will take it bit to dig it out but stay tuned!

[Bernard Gui]

From the Preface written by Elder Talmadge:

It is particularly congruous and appropriate that the Church of Jesus christ of Latter-day Saints - the only Church

that affirms authority based on specific revelation and commission to use the Lord's Holy Name as a distinctive

designation - should set forth her doctrines concerning the Messiah and His mission.

The author of this volume entered upon his welcome service under request and appointment from the presiding

authorities of the Church; and the completed work has been read to and is approved by the First Presidency and

the Council of the Twelve. It presents, however, the writer's personal belief and profoundest conviction as to

the truth of what he has written. The book is published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The copyright is owned by the Church.

Bernard

Edited July 26, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[BCSpace]

Were you ever taught in the Church or by members of the Church that Elder James E. Talmage's Jesus the Christ had canonical or near-canonical status? I know that growing up I was taught that Jesus the Christ could be considered scripture on par with the Standard Works.

If you ever have heard this, have you ever seen any official (or non-official) statements by General Authorities that might lead to this thinking?

There used to be some anecdotal teaching that there was a hierarchy of doctrinal works and both Jesus the Christ and Article of Faith by Talmadge were at the top, followed by the manuals and then the magazines. The Four Standard Works were at the apex but not in the way you think as it was (and still is) recognized that doctrine is generated from those. I don't hear that anymore and I've never seen it published.

[volgadon]

I remember talking with my MTC teacher who is my age (that's 2 years on you, Walker ). We threw around the idea that "Jesus the Christ" was Talmage's gospel, and I think it apt, but neither of us even approximated the idea that it is the fifth standard work.

[Joseph Antley]

Elder Romney, Improvement Era, Nov. 1962 and Elder McConkie will take it bit to dig it out but stay tuned!

You're awesome and I love you.

[Duncan]

You're awesome and I love you.

Oh, I love you too! I just think we should see other people!

[sunstoned]

As missionaries, we were allowed to read Jesus the Christ and Article of Faith, both by Talmadge. I bought both books from Deseret Book. They came with leather covers and onion skin paper just like my triple and bible. Both were popular books both with the missionaries and members. They were quoted in talks, and considered inspired. But I do not recall anyone considering them close to canonized scripture.

[Robert F. Smith]

Were you ever taught in the Church or by members of the Church that Elder James E. Talmage's Jesus the Christ had canonical or near-canonical status? I know that growing up I was taught that Jesus the Christ could be considered scripture on par with the Standard Works.

If you ever have heard this, have you ever seen any official (or non-official) statements by General Authorities that might lead to this thinking?

Thanks!

Never heard any such suggestion until Bob Crocket began making similar statements on this Board.

However, I must admit to having been entranced by it back in the early 60s when I first read it. Elder Talmage seemed to have a special handle on my favorite subject. He seemed to bring my great hero to life in a palpable way that I could otherwise find only in the Gospels themselves.

Still, I never recklessly made the leap from that important quality to the assumption that it was canonical or near canonical. The same applies to Elder McConkie's Mormon Doctrine -- which I understand in the context of the efforts of Roman Catholic canon lawyers (McConkie was a lawyer) to effectively create a systematic & codified set of rules, or canon law -- which is faced by the same potential pitfalls which efforts to create a Mormon systematic theology entail.

[Storm Rider]

Were you ever taught in the Church or by members of the Church that Elder James E. Talmage's Jesus the Christ had canonical or near-canonical status? I know that growing up I was taught that Jesus the Christ could be considered scripture on par with the Standard Works.

If you ever have heard this, have you ever seen any official (or non-official) statements by General Authorities that might lead to this thinking?

Thanks!

This is completely new to me having never heard anything similar to such a statement. Upon hearing it now it does not have the ring of truth to it; sounds more like an individual was starting a foolish tradition.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Storm Rider

[Joseph Antley]

This is complete new to me having never heard anything similar to such a statement. Upon hearing it now it does not have the ring of truth to it; sounds more like an individual was starting a foolish tradition.

Probably so, but I'm just trying to track down whether that individual was a General Authority or not!

[Storm Rider]

Probably so, but I'm just trying to track down whether that individual was a General Authority or not!

Would not be the first time. Too often we don't allow GAs to share their opinion as men. Too quickly we want to make their opinions the Word of God. GAs don't speak for God and we should never put them on such a high pedestal. All they can do is fall off.

[ldsfaqs]

Talmage by the way believed in "Pre-Adamites", partially supporting (but especially his son afterward) B.H. Roberts when Roberts was having his war with Joseph F. Smith on the subject, who didn't believe in Pre-Adamites. Ultimately the Church was neutral on the subject, having no doctrine to support either position, thus wouldn't support either side.

[Joseph Antley]

Talmage by the way believed in "Pre-Adamites", partially supporting (but especially his son afterward) B.H. Roberts when Roberts was having his war with Joseph F. Smith on the subject, who didn't believe in Pre-Adamites. Ultimately the Church was neutral on the subject, having no doctrine to support either position, thus wouldn't support either side.

Joseph F. Smith and B.H. Roberts had a war?

[Duncan]

The Bruce R. McConkie statement comes from the preface to The Promised Messiah, although I don't think he was saying that Jesus The Christ is quasi-canonical but still kind of neat nonetheless!

[Arkholt]

Joseph F. Smith and B.H. Roberts had a war?

Joseph Fielding Smith, not Joseph F, and no, not a war, but... much "spirited debate."

As to the topic at hand, I think the point is that many members treat it as the "fifth standard work," but it hasn't been officially canonized. I don't see any reason why it should be. It's a great book, but what would be the purpose of canonizing it?

[David T]

It's a great devotional book, and highly important for its role in systematizing Mormon beliefs about Christ. Unfortunately, the scholarship is very dated. Elder McConkie tried his own hand at a "doctrinal update" (according to his own, at times, differing opinions) in his multi-volume Messiah Series (just as he tried his own update of Talmage's Articles of Faith with his final work, 'A New Witness For the Articles of Faith') - neither were published by the Church, and neither caught on nearly as much as did Talmage's (although they certainly did become the darling of CES Manuals, and in that backdoor way, worked themself into the institution). It's clear that McConklie viewed himself as Talmage's successor. And in a way, many did view him in that light.

Unfortunately, with JtC's use as one of only a handful of books Missionaries can read, new generations are being raised with that as their de-facto standard in Biblical Scholarship, with Talmage's interpertations of 1st Century Jewish life and doctrinal practice being ingrained as the only way to thing about it. While not canonized, because it is published by the Church and is a specific part of Missionary Curriculum, its highly dated scholarship remains as 21st Century "doctrine".

I think it's a fascinating and important artifact, and very fun to read. Plowing through it is still considered a bit of a Rite of Passage, and a respectable feat. I wish it would be understood more in its historical context than still being viewed as the final word on biblical scholarship among the general membership.

Edited July 27, 2011 by nackhadlow