Can the church cause psychological damage?

[USU78]

I think the church can be psychologically damaging to a homosexual individual.

I don't

[Jigglysaint]

It's hard to have patience with bishops, especially when you are unable to see eye to eye on their advice. I think all we are expected is to at least consider their words and reflect upon them. Hopefully the spirit will let us know if any advice given is sufficiently relevant to us. I think the danger comes when you have bishops who demand obedience and feel they are able to solve any problem themselves. Seems to me the best bishops might be the ones who know how to delegate, and when to delegate. Leaders are leaders. Their job is to oversee a task and use resources at their disposal in order to reach that goal. Bishop has to feed the flock, and he's got all sorts of auxiliaries at his disposal to get the job done. It's like how it's never Heavenly Father who directly comforts us in our time of need, yet we know comfort comes from Him.

[Hamba Tuhan]

i know someone - firsthand - who attended "therapy". the "therapist" told this person "your religion is making you feel bad, you should not feel or feel guilty about what you do with your life", this person no longer sees that therapist.

I too have a good mate whose therapist told him that the source of his depression was his religion and the 'dissonance' it was creating in his life between his ideals and his actual behaviour. He spent the next four years in hedonistic pursuits...and ended up more miserable than when he had started. When we first met, we were both postgrads. His mum had begged him to come back to church, just one Sunday, to see if it would help. He'd agreed, knowing that it wouldn't help; the Church was the source of his problem. But this time, he opened his heart and felt the call to repentance. I remember sitting in my car with him one Saturday night many months later as he told me this story. (We talked til the sun rose.) He said that, having made the choice to actually embrace the gospel instead of smashing himself against it, he'd become so happy that he wanted everyday to climb to the top of the highest tree he could find and shout hallelujahs to whoever would listen.

[urroner]

I think the church can be psychologically damaging to a homosexual individual.

Can homosexuality cause psychological damage?

[Kevin Christensen]

It's interesting to look up the word "sustain" in a good dictionary. You find things like, uphold, support, endure, suffer, as in "He sustained a broken leg." When reading things like Nephi, "having been highly favored of the Lord," and also having suffered many afflictions during the course of my days." I personally see my "sustaining" as something quite different than "reflexive, uncritical obedience and unquestioning acceptance," but rather, a personal covenant to put up with any crap that comes along, a recognition that such things happen when humans get involved, and to not let any of that interfere with my personal covenants with God, to trust him to cause all things to work together for my good eventually.

Eugene England's Why the Church is as True as the Gospel" looks at the church not as a refuge for Saints, and no even entirely as a refuge for sinners, but a place to "practice Christian charity."

There was a book that described what goes on in many churches as "fuzzy moral theraputic deism," that God and religion are there basically to make you feel good about yourself.

Expectations matter a great deal. Ideology matters a great deal. And how one defines "church" matters a great deal. I like to go with the meaning behind the Greek ecclesia, which is "gathering" which places the focus on a bunch of people, rather than a hierarchy, or set of beliefs filtered through publications prepared by conservative bureaucrats, talking down to their audience. I think of a very diverse bunch of people, with different backgrounds, cultures, levels of maturity and spiritual growth.

Measuring the church against any external ideology, any other "ism" will at some point lead to conflict, where the values of that external ideology clash. At that point pride and self will contend against the need to offer a contrite spirit. Measuring the church against a set of personal desires will at some point lead to conflict, where the sacrifice seems too much, where to go on in faith and fellowship calls for offering up a broken heart.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[William Schryver]

It's interesting to look up the word "sustain" in a good dictionary. You find things like, uphold, support, endure, suffer, as in "He sustained a broken leg." When reading things like Nephi, "having been highly favored of the Lord," and also having suffered many afflictions during the course of my days." I personally see my "sustaining" as something quite different than "reflexive, uncritical obedience and unquestioning acceptance," but rather, a personal covenant to put up with any crap that comes along, a recognition that such things happen when humans get involved, and to not let any of that interfere with my personal covenants with God, to trust him to cause all things to work together for my good eventually.

Eugene England's Why the Church is as True as the Gospel" looks at the church not as a refuge for Saints, and no even entirely as a refuge for sinners, but a place to "practice Christian charity."

There was a book that described what goes on in many churches as "fuzzy moral theraputic deism," that God and religion are there basically to make you feel good about yourself.

Expectations matter a great deal. Ideology matters a great deal. And how one defines "church" matters a great deal. I like to go with the meaning behind the Greek ecclesia, which is "gathering" which places the focus on a bunch of people, rather than a hierarchy, or set of beliefs filtered through publications prepared by conservative bureaucrats, talking down to their audience. I think of a very diverse bunch of people, with different backgrounds, cultures, levels of maturity and spiritual growth.

Measuring the church against any external ideology, any other "ism" will at some point lead to conflict, where the values of that external ideology clash. At that point pride and self will contend against the need to offer a contrite spirit. Measuring the church against a set of personal desires will at some point lead to conflict, where the sacrifice seems too much, where to go on in faith and fellowship calls for offering up a broken heart.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I was pondering some of these questions the other day, in the context of some criticism of our local leaders that I had overheard.

I consented that, in some ways, the tendered criticism was, strictly speaking, accurate. In other words, there was some valid basis for the criticism. And yet, I could not bring myself to find fault with the leader being criticized. I felt that focusing on a particular shortcoming at the expense of the bigger picture was not only fallacious, but self-defeating.

From my perspective—and this observation applies equally to everyone from Joseph Smith himself to the present general and local leadership of the Church—I am convinced that our heavenly Father provides just enough revelation/inspiration/direction to compensate for human imperfections/errors. At times, it can be quite a close shave, but somehow the work progresses notwithstanding the weaknesses of the individual human agents who push it forward.

To me, it is a miracle. And, as I have observed its workings over the years, my sincere willingness to sustain both the general and local leaders in the Church has been strengthened and repeatedly confirmed.

[Scott Lloyd]

I was pondering some of these questions the other day, in the context of some criticism of our local leaders that I had overheard.

I consented that, in some ways, the tendered criticism was, strictly speaking, accurate. In other words, there was some valid basis for the criticism. And yet, I could not bring myself to find fault with the leader being criticized. I felt that focusing on a particular shortcoming at the expense of the bigger picture was not only fallacious, but self-defeating.

From my perspective—and this observation applies equally to everyone from Joseph Smith himself to the present general and local leadership of the Church—I am convinced that our heavenly Father provides just enough revelation/inspiration/direction to compensate for human imperfections/errors. At times, it can be quite a close shave, but somehow the work progresses notwithstanding the weaknesses of the individual human agents who push it forward.

To me, it is a miracle. And, as I have observed its workings over the years, my sincere willingness to sustain both the general and local leaders in the Church has been strengthened and repeatedly confirmed.

Interesting point, Will.

I think it pertains to what Richard Bushman has called "the routinization of charisma" in the Church. (See my summary of his remarks here.)

Richard Lyman Bushman, noted scholar and author on the Prophet Joseph Smith and emeritus professor of history at Columbia University in New York, delivered the opening presentation on "Joseph Smith and the Routinization of Charisma," which is defined in a theological sense as a divinely directed gift, grace or talent, such as prophecy.

"How can we account for the success of this lay-led Church, which seems to run against all expectations?" Brother Bushman asked. He said that it's genius can be largely explained in the fact that the expectation of divine revelation has been built into the very administrative structure and offices of the Church, an expectation attributable to the Prophet himself.

"Latter-day Saints know in their bones that only leadership based on righteousness and spirituality will work," Brother Bushman said, every new office holder knows it, and that, in itself, provides a check on the abuse of power within the Church.

[Deborah]

He said that, having made the choice to actually embrace the gospel instead of smashing himself against it, he'd become so happy that he wanted everyday to climb to the top of the highest tree he could find and shout hallelujahs to whoever would listen.

This is a very profound statement and I think summarizes the point we have to come to. I was inactive for awhile and it was only when I woke up to where my life was heading and decided to come back to church fully committed that everything changed. It suddenly became easy to go to church, pay tithing, read the scriptures. Once having made that choice everything about church has been easier.

[Walden]

Can homosexuality cause psychological damage?

On it's own, I don't think so. Rather, it is the close-minded, homophobic, exclusionary, and bigoted reaction of others towards one's homosexuality that can cause "psychological damage."

[Jeff K.]

It can and has caused psychological problems, but then so has heterosexuality and other pedastry depending on the individuals use of them. Much as the individual who claims the church is causing psychological damage overlooks the fact that they choose or have chosen to do damage to themselves and sought to blame it on something other than themselves.

[Calm]

From my perspective—and this observation applies equally to everyone from Joseph Smith himself to the present general and local leadership of the Church—I am convinced that our heavenly Father provides just enough revelation/inspiration/direction to compensate for human imperfections/errors. At times, it can be quite a close shave, but somehow the work progresses notwithstanding the weaknesses of the individual human agents who push it forward.

I have no trouble believing this is exactly how he has structured revelation to work in the Church.

I believe that the Lord has set things up in this world to overcome the natural tendency of men not to seek him out. I don't think this lack is always based in laziness, it can be a result of being too busy in doing good along with a host of other possibilities. I would instead describe it as a tendency to let the here and now drown out our awareness of the 'other', whether that 'other' is another person, other perhaps new ideas, spiritual awareness or something else. From what I've seen, there usually has to be a very good reason for people to take the time and energy to separate themselves from the clutter that surrounds them in order to seek out God...and I think that it is very important to God that we do this not only on an institutional level but even more so on an individual basis since without this desire to seek God we will never achieve the oneness with him that can bring the fullness of joy and happiness either in this life or the next. If one could always rely on someone else's behaviour to be completely inspired or based accurately on revealed knowledge, there would be much less reason to seek out God for ourselves.

[USU78]

On it's own, I don't think so. Rather, it is the close-minded, homophobic, exclusionary, and bigoted reaction of others towards one's homosexuality that can cause "psychological damage."

Huh . . . and I always thought it was the self-indulgent, self-absorbed, self-deceiving, and blame-deflecting spoiled-rottenness that was to blame.

[MorningStar]

Of course the church can cause psychological damage! Just look at me!

[Duncan]

Of course the church can cause psychological damage! Just look at me!

We love you MorningStar!!!

[staccato]

Much as the individual who claims the church is causing psychological damage overlooks the fact that they choose or have chosen to do damage to themselves and sought to blame it on something other than themselves.

Do you believe all damage is internally inflicted?

[urroner]

We love you MorningStar!!!

We do???

Oh yeah, we do. :fool:

Sorry people, I forgot it was "Love MorningStar In Spite Of All Her Faults, Though They Be Many, Beyond Number" month.

Luv U MornStar!!! :wub:

[urroner]

Do you believe all damage is internally inflicted?

Not speaking for JeffK, but I believe that not all damage is internally inflicted, but a good majority of it is.

For example, if a person decides that somebody else has to make them happy, that the power to do so is not within them, they will leave the doors into their souls wide open to that type of damage and, from within, that will allow that damage to happen. Internally, they are allowing others to control them and then they REACT to the situation by blaming others for their misery in lieu of ACTING upon the situation and seeing that the problem is within themselves and that they need to fix that internal problem. When they react, they see that the problem is caused by others and that those others have to fix the problem; they don't have the problem.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

She calls herself "a mormon survivor." Claims she had to undergo years of therapy to get back to living a normal life after being raised in the church and believes the church had harmed her social life and ability to function as a normal adult.

Do active members ever stop to ask themselves if this is a possibility? Does the rigid, somewhat black and white structure of the church combined with things like Temple ceremonies, garments, callings create an unhealthy guilt complex or environment for certain people?

Does my friend have an argument? And if she does what does that say for what's supposed to be a restored gospel that brings peace and joy into the hearts of it's recepients??

If any harm was done, it probably came from family, not Church.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You must have had interesting bishops if church was like boot camp.

I have been trough boot camp, I know boot camp; church is not boot camp.

[Messenger]

I too have a good mate whose therapist told him that the source of his depression was his religion and the 'dissonance' it was creating in his life between his ideals and his actual behaviour. He spent the next four years in hedonistic pursuits...and ended up more miserable than when he had started. When we first met, we were both postgrads. His mum had begged him to come back to church, just one Sunday, to see if it would help. He'd agreed, knowing that it wouldn't help; the Church was the source of his problem. But this time, he opened his heart and felt the call to repentance. I remember sitting in my car with him one Saturday night many months later as he told me this story. (We talked til the sun rose.) He said that, having made the choice to actually embrace the gospel instead of smashing himself against it, he'd become so happy that he wanted everyday to climb to the top of the highest tree he could find and shout hallelujahs to whoever would listen.

I’m the only member in my family. Your story of your friend is similar to mine. When I was 14, my life seem pointless. I often wondered if there was nothing more. I discovered the church and started taking the discussions. It was a paradigm shift and an epiphany to learn that God answers prayers. My beginning testimony was on the three degrees of glory, and how Christ went to the Spirit World after his death so that those that had died could be taught. I remember it like it was yesterday. The impact of the missionaries giving those discussions, and the absolute truth being unfolded, made me want to try and share that with my parents; with everyone! The fact that this truth is bigger than anything I had ever experienced, and I could actually participate in it made me whole, it healed me from my past, and my misguided future. The world, evil people, and nations all try and control what you & I know for their own selfish reasons. The gospel sets us free and leapfrogs worldly understanding.

I can’t imagine why I would ever return to a limited understanding of how things truly are. The gospel is not only about past truth, but present and future truth. We may have a testimony of things in the past, such as Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ or even Moses. If we don’t have daily guidance our progression stops. I suppose people can leave the church because of someone that offended them. All that should have happened would have been to talk to the offending party and try and make things right or even limit the exposure them; move to another ward if need be. Other reasons might be that they have a conflict with the rules of the church and that they might be happier outside of it so there is no conflict. In the heat of the moment, we may decide to leave the church perhaps because we feel it can no longer be true based on something someone does, even a bishop or church leader. What we fail to remember is that people make mistakes, all people. By leaving the church, we lose the blessings of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion. The ability to connect… on demand … to truth is lost. My feeling is that what I gain from the connection between me and my Heavenly Father would never be trumped by any earthly temptation or lifestyle conflict; I will fight and win over the conflict or die trying to be perfect and return to him rather than lose that connection. And if my example helps others to be more right, more correct, then my courage to stay the course is justified. Whatever physical telestial challenges I have are merely that - telestial. He is master above all this is physical! Any shortcomings I have here on this earth can be overcome, if not by me, eventually by him.

Successful people in the church, even people with huge challenges such has SSA, realize that the SSA is manifest in their physical being, not their spiritual being. Therefore, people that have challenges in this area seem to learn to separate the two and realize their spirit is of God, and that the physical challenge is what they have been born into. They realize that they have a spiritual desire to have a loving family, a wife and kids; It makes us complete. And despite all the efforts to change the laws, have gay marriage and adopt children, the spiritual desire will not be met or be satisfied, even if those laws change. The only thing that will happen is a halt to truth, and strong possibility that they would influence the adopted children by exposing them to a lifestyle that is incongruent with Celestial Law and possibly daming them to the same SSA they are affected with.

I am reminded of an experience I had two years ago. I had a question about moving to a new town and working for a new company. I wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. I studied the possibilities, made my choice and presented it to the Lord. I humbly prayed for a confirmation and was open to any direction he might give me. For some reason, I had an incredible experience in an answer to my prayers. It started with a dream of Christ, his love, his essence, filling my body and centered on my heart. Not only was it an incredible dream, when I awoke, I had an indescribable feeling of love, which was very intense and continued after I woke up for nearly three hours later. It was like being wrapped in total love, total comfort, and understanding. The answer was yes!

Is there anything impossible for the Lord that has so much love for us? What is the answer to so many people that struggle with the church? It is my testimony to never quit! My life, my faults, my issues are all tiny in comparison to his power. And while I am not removed from despair and life’s utter disappointments, he absolutely loves me without condition. I conclude by saying that these life experiences, although they seem insurmountable, are from a heavenly perspective but a tiny microsecond in time, but offer us blessings and rewards for our courage to go through them.

I dont know where this came from this morning. But I hope it helps someone reading this thread.

[oats]

She calls herself "a mormon survivor." Claims she had to undergo years of therapy to get back to living a normal life after being raised in the church and believes the church had harmed her social life and ability to function as a normal adult.

Do active members ever stop to ask themselves if this is a possibility? Does the rigid, somewhat black and white structure of the church combined with things like Temple ceremonies, garments, callings create an unhealthy guilt complex or environment for certain people?

Does my friend have an argument? And if she does what does that say for what's supposed to be a restored gospel that brings peace and joy into the hearts of it's recepients??

I think this is relative. What does she mean by this? On most of the 'mormon survivor' mentality boards the inability to function often translates to mean they are not socially adept in the drinking, clubbing, and social sex side of things. Personally, I am socially retarded in these respects. I'm sure that refraining from those 'normal' adult activities has 'psychologically' injured me. I completely accept those 'injuries'. If I apostacize, and cease to strive for the goals within an LDS framework, then I will probably feel like I've been 'psychologically injured' by all those years in the church. I'll feel a host of undisirable restraints, guilt and emotional consquences when I go to do things I've trained myself to avoid. I'll be inexperienced in a lot of ways. I'll have spent the past 25 years of my life with different motivations and outlook - no doubt creating a disconnect from the 'normal' social behaviour and mental reactions.

Yea, I definitely see how the church can cause psychological damage, if the 'damage' I've seen claimed (and the 'damage' I notice in my own life) are what she is talking about. In terms of real psychological disorders (schitzophrenia, depression, trauma, phobias, madness, etc.) I have no idea whether or not the church can cause these. Trauma, maybe, but wouldn't that be more likely on an individual experience level? I've never seen mass trauma occur from church.

Perhaps the church is the cause of SSA and cancer, too?

[Jeff K.]

Do you believe all damage is internally inflicted?

In general, yes I do. People will always seek to point to issues outside themselves in order to justify their position when in fact it is usually how they decide to react, not the environment they exist it. If one wanted to they could say the world was too hot and their psychological depression was due to an eternally blazing sun which only goes down every 12 hours or so. Shame on the sun for its existence and the pain it causes.

[Jeff K.]

I’m the only member in my family. Your story of your friend is similar to mine. When I was 14, my life seem pointless. I often wondered if there was nothing more. I discovered the church and started taking the discussions. It was a paradigm shift and an epiphany to learn that God answers prayers. My beginning testimony was on the three degrees of glory, and how Christ went to the Spirit World after his death so that those that had died could be taught. I remember it like it was yesterday. The impact of the missionaries giving those discussions, and the absolute truth being unfolded, made me want to try and share that with my parents; with everyone! The fact that this truth is bigger than anything I had ever experienced, and I could actually participate in it made me whole, it healed me from my past, and my misguided future. The world, evil people, and nations all try and control what you & I know for their own selfish reasons. The gospel sets us free and leapfrogs worldly understanding.

I can’t imagine why I would ever return to a limited understanding of how things truly are. The gospel is not only about past truth, but present and future truth. We may have a testimony of things in the past, such as Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ or even Moses. If we don’t have daily guidance our progression stops. I suppose people can leave the church because of someone that offended them. All that should have happened would have been to talk to the offending party and try and make things right or even limit the exposure them; move to another ward if need be. Other reasons might be that they have a conflict with the rules of the church and that they might be happier outside of it so there is no conflict. In the heat of the moment, we may decide to leave the church perhaps because we feel it can no longer be true based on something someone does, even a bishop or church leader. What we fail to remember is that people make mistakes, all people. By leaving the church, we lose the blessings of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion. The ability to connect… on demand … to truth is lost. My feeling is that what I gain from the connection between me and my Heavenly Father would never be trumped by any earthly temptation or lifestyle conflict; I will fight and win over the conflict or die trying to be perfect and return to him rather than lose that connection. And if my example helps others to be more right, more correct, then my courage to stay the course is justified. Whatever physical telestial challenges I have are merely that - telestial. He is master above all this is physical! Any shortcomings I have here on this earth can be overcome, if not by me, eventually by him.

Successful people in the church, even people with huge challenges such has SSA, realize that the SSA is manifest in their physical being, not their spiritual being. Therefore, people that have challenges in this area seem to learn to separate the two and realize their spirit is of God, and that the physical challenge is what they have been born into. They realize that they have a spiritual desire to have a loving family, a wife and kids; It makes us complete. And despite all the efforts to change the laws, have gay marriage and adopt children, the spiritual desire will not be met or be satisfied, even if those laws change. The only thing that will happen is a halt to truth, and strong possibility that they would influence the adopted children by exposing them to a lifestyle that is incongruent with Celestial Law and possibly daming them to the same SSA they are affected with.

I am reminded of an experience I had two years ago. I had a question about moving to a new town and working for a new company. I wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. I studied the possibilities, made my choice and presented it to the Lord. I humbly prayed for a confirmation and was open to any direction he might give me. For some reason, I had an incredible experience in an answer to my prayers. It started with a dream of Christ, his love, his essence, filling my body and centered on my heart. Not only was it an incredible dream, when I awoke, I had an indescribable feeling of love, which was very intense and continued after I woke up for nearly three hours later. It was like being wrapped in total love, total comfort, and understanding. The answer was yes!

Is there anything impossible for the Lord that has so much love for us? What is the answer to so many people that struggle with the church? It is my testimony to never quit! My life, my faults, my issues are all tiny in comparison to his power. And while I am not removed from despair and life’s utter disappointments, he absolutely loves me without condition. I conclude by saying that these life experiences, although they seem insurmountable, are from a heavenly perspective but a tiny microsecond in time, but offer us blessings and rewards for our courage to go through them.

I dont know where this came from this morning. But I hope it helps someone reading this thread.

Well said. As the only member in my family I could as easily turn to them and claim psychological trauma because they did not accept me and my religion. Instead I understood and respected the differences. There are no psychological trauma that make one inept, there is instead the maturity to know who one is and what is required. It seems to me the lack of such knowledge causes more pain internally than any environment could inflict.

[MorningStar]

We do???

Oh yeah, we do. :fool:

Sorry people, I forgot it was "Love MorningStar In Spite Of All Her Faults, Though They Be Many, Beyond Number" month.

Luv U MornStar!!! :wub:

By "we", he might have been talking about his multiple personalities caused by our damaging religion. I love you guys too.

[Duncan]

By "we", he might have been talking about his multiple personalities caused by our damaging religion. I love you guys too.

haha! We have schizephrenia and so do I! love and peace!