The Real Concern Over Church Growth

[LDS Guy 1986]

Hence my comment that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth.

Well you forget that if ordinances for the dead are for those who died without a knowledge of the Restored Gospel, it isn't a free ticket to live a sinful life and reject the restored Gospel in this life and accept it in the next.

Those who reject the gospel in this life and accept it in the next cannot inherit Celestial Glory.

[Sky]

The fact that so few people who are now living or have ever lived have the opportunity to be a part of the true Church of Jesus Christ is all the more reason for us to embrace and live it fully. All the people who missed the opportunity to accept the Gospel in their mortal life will be given that opportunity in the spirit world through our Heavenly Father

[CA Steve]

The question asked is why so few are given the opportunity to receive the gospel in this life.

The answer given is that all will get the chance to hear the gospel either in this life or the next.

The question is asking 'why' and the answer is directed at 'when'.

[california boy]

Well you forget that if ordinances for the dead are for those who died without a knowledge of the Restored Gospel, it isn't a free ticket to live a sinful life and reject the restored Gospel in this life and accept it in the next.

Those who reject the gospel in this life and accept it in the next cannot inherit Celestial Glory.

I am assuming by your response that you do not have an answer or insight into the question. Here it is again if you want to offer an answer to the actual question.

Hence my comment that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth.

I do have a question about the response that you gave that did not address my question. Do you have a CFR that those who reject the gospel in this life and accept it in the next cannot inherit Celestial Glory. And by cannot do you mean they cannot inherit Celestial Glory FOREVER?

[Nathair/|\]

I am assuming by your response that you do not have an answer or insight into the question. Here it is again if you want to offer an answer to the actual question.

Hence my comment that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth.

I do have a question about the response that you gave that did not address my question. Do you have a CFR that those who reject the gospel in this life and accept it in the next cannot inherit Celestial Glory. And by cannot do you mean they cannot inherit Celestial Glory FOREVER?

I think that many people need to be out of the church for a time either for their own growth or for the service they can give. I think that only those who reject the gospel, knowing exactly what it is, will not have the opportunity to ever make it to the CK. I doubt that anyone on this board understands it that well.

OTOH, if I was raised out of the church, I would likely be far more wicked than I am even now.

[CQUIRK]

Actually, I think you will find the internet has made access to literature, personal experiences and history that is critical of the Church MUCH more accessible, organized and easier to find than ever before.

And yet you also forget that the internet has also made access to literature, personal experiences and history that refutes anti-Mormon claims and stereotypes against the church. FAIR and this board have also made strides against anti-Mormon lies and smears online as well.

The internet has actually serves as a double-edged sword for the church rather then hurts it- sorry but your argument is no good and is rather a typical anti-Mormon myth that doesn't live up to its hype in reality.

Church growth will always fluctuate over time, growth was down from 2001-2004 and then shot back up again after that.

And you also forget the membership in many other churches are actually in serious decline, and I'm not just talking about the mainstream protestant denominations. The Southern Baptists were growing until last year, when they started to decline in membership while we're still growing on our end.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I am assuming by your response that you do not have an answer or insight into the question. Here it is again if you want to offer an answer to the actual question.

Hence my comment that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth.

I do have a question about the response that you gave that did not address my question. Do you have a CFR that those who reject the gospel in this life and accept it in the next cannot inherit Celestial Glory. And by cannot do you mean they cannot inherit Celestial Glory FOREVER?

Exaltation is for all who follow the plan of salvation at any time, whether in this life (because they had access to the Gospel) of the Spirit world (because they didn't have access), as the D&C points out those who reject the Gospel in this life cannot receive Celestial Glory, so if we live know and know the message of the Restored Gospel our whole life and completely reject that message and die, we cannot be exalted be cause we denied Christ while in the flesh. As it says in Matthew if we deny him now he shall deny us in heaven.

If you know that the Book of Mormon is true and you accept it as part of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ you must do you best to live according to it's commandments. To have a knowledge of the Christ and willingly live in sin without repentance means you cannot come before God in Celestial Glory.

This is why all the Apostles (ancient and modern combined) have taught us to never delay the day of our repentance, because to do so puts us in peril of losing eternal life.

Added by Edit:

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72Behold, these are they who died without law;

73And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who wereblinded by the craftiness of men.

76These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. (D&C 76;71-75)

Yes, what you inherit is your reward forever, there is not progression after the day of Judgement. You have until the Day of Judgement to prepare, after that you reap what you have sown, and there is no more changes to inherit a higher kingdom.

[california boy]

Exaltation is for all who follow the plan of salvation at any time, whether in this life (because they had access to the Gospel) of the Spirit world (because they didn't have access), as the D&C points out those who reject the Gospel in this life cannot receive Celestial Glory, so if we live know and know the message of the Restored Gospel our whole life and completely reject that message and die, we cannot be exalted be cause we denied Christ while in the flesh. As it says in Matthew if we deny him now he shall deny us in heaven.

If you know that the Book of Mormon is true and you accept it as part of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ you must do you best to live according to it's commandments. To have a knowledge of the Christ and willingly live in sin without repentance means you cannot come before God in Celestial Glory.

This is why all the Apostles (ancient and modern combined) have taught us to never delay the day of our repentance, because to do so puts us in peril of losing eternal life.

Added by Edit:

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72Behold, these are they who died without law;

73And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who wereblinded by the craftiness of men.

76These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. (D&C 76;71-75)

Yes, what you inherit is your reward forever, there is not progression after the day of Judgement. You have until the Day of Judgement to prepare, after that you reap what you have sown, and there is no more changes to inherit a higher kingdom.

Thanks for your response. I have just a couple of questions. Do you have a response to the first part of my post?

And second. You have presented how Alma felt about this issue, but I wonder if you have any thoughts about how this idea squares with what Christ was teaching about the Prodical Son.

Just my opinion, but as a father, I want all of my children to succeed as much as they possibly can. If they made bad decisions, I certainly would help them move past those bad choices and go on to a more successful life. Do you think that Heavenly Father has a much harsher attitude toward His chlidren?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Thanks for your response. I have just a couple of questions. Do you have a response to the first part of my post?

I will go back and try and see what this first part is, I can't give any promises though.

Just my opinion, but as a father, I want all of my children to succeed as much as they possibly can. If they made bad decisions, I certainly would help them move past those bad choices and go on to a more successful life. Do you think that Heavenly Father has a much harsher attitude toward His children?

I think Heavenly Father has no harsher attitude towards us as we do towards each other, we have crimes that are considered unforgivable, crimes so heinous and terrible that even as a civilized society we say there is no chance someone can do this and be rehabilitated. In some States for such crimes the convicted can be put to death in a humane manner by the State, also the Federal Government does and will execute certain criminals for crimes committed. Now the State doesn't enjoy having to do this, but they acknowledge that in certain situations one can do something so terrible that there is nothing to save them.

Heavenly Father is the same way, he loves us all and wants to save all of us and will save all that allow him to save them through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. But he cannot deny justice either, if we commit an unforgivable sin, we cannot be saved in this life or the next.

If we committed one of these sins we wouldn't want to be saved anyway, to stand in the presence of God with such wickedness in our hearts is a far worse fate for us than to be in Outer Darkness at least this is what we are taught in the scriptures.

Now thankfully such a sin is a very hard one to commit, it take a lifetime to commit, and once we commit it there is no turning back. To do that is to do what Lucifer and his fallen host have done, to turn your back completely on Heavenly Father and deny his plan. To do this means you must suffer the consequences of this choice just as Lucifer and the 1/3 of the heavenly host who rebelled will.

There is no harshness at all, God cannot save you if you will not let him, those who commit this kind of sin can only do so after understanding the Restored Gospel and willingly taking upon themselves the name of Christ through baptism and confirmation. Once you take that step on towards exaltation, if you turn away for good and do not keep the covenant you made with God you only have one place you can reside and that is outside the gates in Outer Darkness where there is a wailing and a gnashing of teeth.

[california boy]

I will go back and try and see what this first part is, I can't give any promises though.

I think Heavenly Father has no harsher attitude towards us as we do towards each other, we have crimes that are considered unforgivable, crimes so heinous and terrible that even as a civilized society we say there is no chance someone can do this and be rehabilitated. In some States for such crimes the convicted can be put to death in a humane manner by the State, also the Federal Government does and will execute certain criminals for crimes committed. Now the State doesn't enjoy having to do this, but they acknowledge that in certain situations one can do something so terrible that there is nothing to save them.

Heavenly Father is the same way, he loves us all and wants to save all of us and will save all that allow him to save them through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. But he cannot deny justice either, if we commit an unforgivable sin, we cannot be saved in this life or the next.

If we committed one of these sins we wouldn't want to be saved anyway, to stand in the presence of God with such wickedness in our hearts is a far worse fate for us than to be in Outer Darkness at least this is what we are taught in the scriptures.

Now thankfully such a sin is a very hard one to commit, it take a lifetime to commit, and once we commit it there is no turning back. To do that is to do what Lucifer and his fallen host have done, to turn your back completely on Heavenly Father and deny his plan. To do this means you must suffer the consequences of this choice just as Lucifer and the 1/3 of the heavenly host who rebelled will.

There is no harshness at all, God cannot save you if you will not let him, those who commit this kind of sin can only do so after understanding the Restored Gospel and willingly taking upon themselves the name of Christ through baptism and confirmation. Once you take that step on towards exaltation, if you turn away for good and do not keep the covenant you made with God you only have one place you can reside and that is outside the gates in Outer Darkness where there is a wailing and a gnashing of teeth.

I don't think that I was referring to a sin so awful as murder or denying the Holy Ghost. (The general authorities have made that possibility limited to someone who is an apostle or prophet.)

I was referring more to someone who rejects the gospel in this life for one reason or another. Do you feel they barred from the Celestial Kingdom forever? Keeping in mind Christ's teachings on the prodigal son.

The first part of my question that has yet to be answered was this:

Exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth.

You will have to reread previous post to see why I conclude this to be true.

[Questing Beast]

@LDS Guy: I've had that perspective before too, i.e. the wicked would be far less miserable out of God's presence therefore outer darkness is actually a blessing of sorts for those irreversibly wicked souls.

However, the implication of such an "eternal, endless" fate, if it is indeed irreversible forever, is that God is less than omnipotent if he loses any of us because of some law that he is bound by. No matter how you twist and turn the logic always ends up at God being less than all-powerful.

As God cannot possibly be less charitable than I, it follows that infinity must provide a way, just like "nature": there is always a way. To assume that God would knowingly create any being that was destined to be miserable forever, just because s/he didn't "get it" in this infinitesimally brief mortal life, is to imagine a "God" that is not only less than all-powerful but also a monster.

My 'satiable imagination cannot allow for "God" creating any sapient being that would ultimately reject "God". We place far too much "faith" in manmade dogma and short-sightedness. This puny world is not the center of "God's" work, it is merely a fly speck part of it. Yet each sapient soul upon it is just as much a part of "God's" thought as the expanding multiverse.

The biggest concept of "salvation" possible to imagine must include all religions, all spiritual questing, all individual communication with "God", etc. We cannot know, therefore it is mere assertion that there is ONE WAY back into "God's" presence. The evidence is otherwise: we have literally endless varieties of individual beings, no two of them overlapping in thoughts, emotions or metaphysical perceptions. Each of us is connected ONLY to "God" (and I have never known anyone who, through that connection, could know the thoughts and feel the emotions of anyone else; we are alone except for God). The point being, that nobody can possibly say that anyone else is mistaken about their spiritual beliefs and convictions. Therefore, Mormonism for the Mormons, Islam for the Muslims, RCC for the Catholics, etc. It's all good, if it makes people behave better than they otherwise would. And, NO religion at all for those who don't want, need or like it; as long as they are living the best life they can, and admit that they are fallible but desire to improve: I see no difference in a righteous person be s/he inside or outside of any religion whatsoever....

[LDS Guy 1986]

I don't think that I was referring to a sin so awful as murder or denying the Holy Ghost. (The general authorities have made that possibility limited to someone who is an apostle or prophet.)

I was referring more to someone who rejects the gospel in this life for one reason or another. Do you feel they barred from the Celestial Kingdom forever? Keeping in mind Christ's teachings on the prodigal son.

I know the prodigal son, also remember that this son didn't die and then tried to make up in the afterlife, he returned in his life to the father and changed his ways.

Yes, to continuously reject the Restored Gospel their entire life and never accept it in the flesh means they are not blameless before Christ, they had the chance to learn about him when they were suppose to according to the Plan of Salvation to obtain Exaltation.

If they were given the opportunity and they didn't do their part, they can accept it in the afterlife and inherit a lesser glory according to their works in the spirit world.

This is covered in the previous section of the D&C I quoted earlier.

[LeSellers]

Hence my comment that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth.

Since most people who will ever have been born on the earth will not have been members of the Church while on the earth, nor even have access, however remote, to her, your statement is correct, albeit misleading.

Yes, mostly, those in the Celestial Kingdom will be people who were not baptized in their propriae personnae on the earth. But then, most of them (or a huge proportion) will not be baptized at all due to their not reaching the age of accountability.

Many, again a huge part, will be converts in the spirit world, baptized by proxy in the Temples of God.

However, I expect that a sizable fraction will be people who were baptized like Adam and Eve, and me, and who lived their lives so that the judgments they receive based on their works and repentance will be absorbed by the Atonement of Christ. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a club God uses to bludgeon men, but a tool He employs to exalt us. You know:

39 For behold this is my work and my glory

[california boy]

Since most people who will ever have been born on the earth will not have been members of the Church while on the earth, nor even have access, however remote, to her, your statement is correct, albeit misleading.

Lehi

In what way did you find my statement misleading? I certainly did not intend it to be misleading.

It is interesting when you look at the whole picture that there is such a small percentage of people who have lived on the earth that have actually taken part in the "plan of happiness" while here on the earth. Just my observation. Or do you find this observation misleading?

[LDS Guy 1986]

In what way did you find my statement misleading? I certainly did not intend it to be misleading.

It is interesting when you look at the whole picture that there is such a small percentage of people who have lived on the earth that have actually taken part in the "plan of happiness" while here on the earth. Just my observation. Or do you find this observation misleading?

I think he finds (and I as well) that the observation is useless, those who passed on without a knowledge have the change to receive it in the spirit world, like they would of received it on the Earth had they been permitted to tarry. There is no added benift to them for accepting it in the Spirit World in fact in a spiritual sense there acceptance in the Spirit World makes it as if they had accepted it in the flesh while they lived otherwise proxy ordinances are useless.

There is no added benefit or easier process to accept the Gospel in the spirit world because you lived without a knowledge of it, in mortal life. Just like there isn't any penalty nor is it any harder or easier for us to accept the Gospel in the flesh when we heard it from our friends, family, and the missionaries.

The fact that only a small portion of the world has lived in a dispensation where the fullness of the Gospel was available has no impact whatsoever on anything at all, all will have the chance to learn and accept or reject the Restored Gospel on Jesus Christ in this life or in the next if they didn't receive it here. Those that reject it in this life will still have a chance to decide to accept it in the next an inherit there estate in the Terrestrial Kingdom, those who reject it in this life and the next will inherit the Telestial Glory after paying the full weight of there sins.

[thesometimesaint]

Questing Beast:

You are forgetting the principle of Agency. Not even God will force you to be with him. To do so would make him no longer God.

The Intelligences are eternal and can not be made.

Again ALL of Gods' children will have ample opportunity to hear, learn, understand the Gospel to their complete satisfaction, whether in this life or the next. NO ONE will be saved or damned in ignorance.

[LeSellers]

In what way did you find my statement misleading? I certainly did not intend it to be misleading.

Because, stated that way, it sounds as if the best choice is to avoid joining the Church because it's easier to live without the Gospel on earth, and then accept it later: after all, there's always that "second chance".

It is interesting when you look at the whole picture that there is such a small percentage of people who have lived on the earth that have actually taken part in the "plan of happiness" while here on the earth.

The stats support that observation. Not to mention that everyone who dies prior to the age of eight years old is automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God.

Historically, it wasn't until ~ad 30 that anyone but Israelites even had access to the Gospel, and not all of them had the full set of blessings due to apostasy within Israel.

Just my observation. Or do you find this observation misleading?

No, because there is little way to misinterpret it.

Lehi

[california boy]

Because, stated that way, it sounds as if the best choice is to avoid joining the Church because it's easier to live without the Gospel on earth, and then accept it later: after all, there's always that "second chance".

The stats support that observation. Not to mention that everyone who dies prior to the age of eight years old is automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God.

Historically, it wasn't until ~ad 30 that anyone but Israelites even had access to the Gospel, and not all of them had the full set of blessings due to apostasy within Israel.

No, because there is little way to misinterpret it.

Lehi

I I think you are both projecting a bit into my posts. Look, I am not antiMormon. I love the church. I think it is a real support to those that are involved in it. This includes my kids, which I support them every chance I can.

My question was just something I was thinking about and wondered what others that are involved in the church thought. I am fully aware of the opportunities in the spirit world. And I am not saying that it is more difficult to live the church teachings here, on earth or after we die. It just seems like members of the church place a huge importance on being members of the church as it relates to their salvation. The missionary program continues to double and expand which is one of the 3 fold missions of the church. I just see the slowdown of growth of convert baptisms as being an unexpected event and wondered what others though about what the cause of it is.

I do personally feel that the image of the church isn't what it used to be. There is a lot of ill will against the church. The feeling I had when growing up is no one knew much about the church, and what they knew was usually wrong. Then, at least in California, it seemed that the church became more visible, more prominent, and in my opinion more respected. Now it seems like people are more polarized about the church and less willing to open their hearts to the message of the gospel. Maybe no one else feels this way and I am alone in this observation.

The thread wasn't met to be some kind of goading but rather wondering what others thought the church could do to improve their image. I feel like many of the members that have posted comments have been more defensive than thought provoking. Maybe no one is concerned with the image of the church and the growth rate of the church is all that is expected.

Maybe growth of the church is not important. When I thought about that, then it kinda reinforces the idea that throughout history so few of mankind have been able to participate in the plan of happiness in this life, it makes one think it may not be that important to be baptized while on tis earth.

So there are my thoughts.

[TAO]

I am fully aware of the opportunities in the spirit world. And I am not saying that it is more difficult to live the church teachings here, on earth or after we die. It just seems like members of the church place a huge importance on being members of the church as it relates to their salvation. The missionary program continues to double and expand which is one of the 3 fold missions of the church. I just see the slowdown of growth of convert baptisms as being an unexpected event and wondered what others though about what the cause of it is.

Indeed, many members do put a heavy importance on it. I think it's important, very important - but at the same time, not in the way it is always emphasized. I think it's important because I am not sure how easy one's chance will be in the spiritual world if you have the opportunity in the physical world. In other words, degree of knowledge, degree of responsibility.

I think the slowdown of convert baptisms is from a few things, really. First off, I think many of the open hearts are already taken up... I think many of the converts we have now... were the ones who were really wonderful. The next generation will be harder still, I think... but I hope I'm wrong. I think slowly, as Satan grabs a hold of the hearts of people, and distracts them... it's not even so much causing them to sin... although sometimes it is... but distraction is a bad enemy too... I think as this happens more and more... difficulties are going to get much harder. That isn't to say missionary work can't be successful - all it truly takes for a good missionary system is for the church members, missionaries, stake president, and bishopric to work together with God, really - with alot of hard work, missionary things will become easier. It'll take some powerful youth though, as well as powerful leaders. I think we have those though. The youth in my seminary class, they are strong in their testimonies, that they are... and they aren't exactly nieve to criticisms either. I think the next generation of missionaries may be more powerful... but I do not know for sure. People are busy these days, and so confused. Things tend to be harder. We will need good missionaries for that.

Another thing that slows converts to the church, perhaps being the cynicism of this generation. It's one of the reasons I sort of fluctuate in between apologetics and isolation as a person, really. I came to apologetics partly to avoid cynicism, and yet sometimes apologetics in itself gets cynical, and I switch to isolation again for a while. I think the cynicality and mockingness of people in this generation, and the general care-less-edness of many people will cause problems. The great and spacious building is going to be more full - or, perhaps, in the least, more loud and vocal. People like beating on one another withe their words and such, and I don't think that's going to make an easy enviroment for the church to proselyte in. The church needs to speak to humble people, and people who are stuck in cynicality are so missing the humility they need for the gospel of love. Humility is a really, really important thing, and without humility, you can't listen or submit, you become cynical, and fall away. So this cynicality will be a great barrier against the church.

But besides confusion/distraction and cynicality, I think the next big worry is compliance... I don't think the church should always comply with things. Yes, it should seek to avoid arguments and conflicts whenever possible, but it also has a certain duty to stand for the right thing when the time happens. So far, they are doing a good job at it (in terms of the church leaders), but I don't think some of the members are being so successful. Having a half-faith, so to say, is getting more popular... I don't think having a half-faith is bad when you realize what you are doing and why you are doing that, but I worry about the people who have a half-faith simply because they do not care so much to talk to God about it... I worry about people who have a half-faith because of doubts... but only of those who do not talk to God about it.

I think perhaps these half-faith people encourage others to have half-faiths... that is why I worry... I worry because having a testimony is a very important thing for the gospel of Jesus Christ... it's really important for people to believe what they say, and to be pure, clean of heart, one minded, humble and sure. It is really important because things are going to get harder perhaps, and it's going to be like ripping a paper in half - people will go this way and that, tearing jagged lines through their normal life causing struggles and leading them to one edge or the other.

Lots of worries. Lots of hope, but lots of worries also =/.

I do personally feel that the image of the church isn't what it used to be. There is a lot of ill will against the church. The feeling I had when growing up is no one knew much about the church, and what they knew was usually wrong. Then, at least in California, it seemed that the church became more visible, more prominent, and in my opinion more respected. Now it seems like people are more polarized about the church and less willing to open their hearts to the message of the gospel. Maybe no one else feels this way and I am alone in this observation.

I also live in California, and at least, in my hometown, things in terms of reputation for the church have gone way up from where they are. Community Service projects are often reported in the newspaper, people tend to be more kind and giving, and loving and supporting of one another. We are just 'a church' in our area, we aren't necessarily 'those Mormons' or something derogatory... we are actually accepted somewhat. Which I am happy about. I have heard of other areas in California though, that are not so accepting of us... so I do not know much about how accepted we are beyond my little neighborhood in Orange County. =)

If anything, I have noticed that the news media (well, not the local ones, they seem to be doing quite fine in terms of less bias) has gotten very much more vocal and polarized, like you have said, and cynicality and bad feelings are kinda rampant. Now days I don't like watching the news much... sad imo =/.

The thread wasn't met to be some kind of goading but rather wondering what others thought the church could do to improve their image. I feel like many of the members that have posted comments have been more defensive than thought provoking. Maybe no one is concerned with the image of the church and the growth rate of the church is all that is expected.

If I may say so, I would say that neither truly is important for now... what will be important will each individual person we proselytize... from those missionaries. We need to prepare those missionaries well. Really well. And prepare our branches and stakes and wards... and members... prepare them for what is ahead.

I don't think we should count our numbers by head... I think we should count them by humble faithful heart, that I do. God is counting, not us =).

Best Wishes,

Your Friend,

TAO

[Sky]

Just wanted to share some thoughts that I had running through my mind

[california boy]

Indeed, many members do put a heavy importance on it. I think it's important, very important - but at the same time, not in the way it is always emphasized. I think it's important because I am not sure how easy one's chance will be in the spiritual world if you have the opportunity in the physical world. In other words, degree of knowledge, degree of responsibility.

I think the slowdown of convert baptisms is from a few things, really. First off, I think many of the open hearts are already taken up... I think many of the converts we have now... were the ones who were really wonderful. The next generation will be harder still, I think... but I hope I'm wrong. I think slowly, as Satan grabs a hold of the hearts of people, and distracts them... it's not even so much causing them to sin... although sometimes it is... but distraction is a bad enemy too... I think as this happens more and more... difficulties are going to get much harder. That isn't to say missionary work can't be successful - all it truly takes for a good missionary system is for the church members, missionaries, stake president, and bishopric to work together with God, really - with alot of hard work, missionary things will become easier. It'll take some powerful youth though, as well as powerful leaders. I think we have those though. The youth in my seminary class, they are strong in their testimonies, that they are... and they aren't exactly nieve to criticisms either. I think the next generation of missionaries may be more powerful... but I do not know for sure. People are busy these days, and so confused. Things tend to be harder. We will need good missionaries for that.

Another thing that slows converts to the church, perhaps being the cynicism of this generation. It's one of the reasons I sort of fluctuate in between apologetics and isolation as a person, really. I came to apologetics partly to avoid cynicism, and yet sometimes apologetics in itself gets cynical, and I switch to isolation again for a while. I think the cynicality and mockingness of people in this generation, and the general care-less-edness of many people will cause problems. The great and spacious building is going to be more full - or, perhaps, in the least, more loud and vocal. People like beating on one another withe their words and such, and I don't think that's going to make an easy enviroment for the church to proselyte in. The church needs to speak to humble people, and people who are stuck in cynicality are so missing the humility they need for the gospel of love. Humility is a really, really important thing, and without humility, you can't listen or submit, you become cynical, and fall away. So this cynicality will be a great barrier against the church.

But besides confusion/distraction and cynicality, I think the next big worry is compliance... I don't think the church should always comply with things. Yes, it should seek to avoid arguments and conflicts whenever possible, but it also has a certain duty to stand for the right thing when the time happens. So far, they are doing a good job at it (in terms of the church leaders), but I don't think some of the members are being so successful. Having a half-faith, so to say, is getting more popular... I don't think having a half-faith is bad when you realize what you are doing and why you are doing that, but I worry about the people who have a half-faith simply because they do not care so much to talk to God about it... I worry about people who have a half-faith because of doubts... but only of those who do not talk to God about it.

I think perhaps these half-faith people encourage others to have half-faiths... that is why I worry... I worry because having a testimony is a very important thing for the gospel of Jesus Christ... it's really important for people to believe what they say, and to be pure, clean of heart, one minded, humble and sure. It is really important because things are going to get harder perhaps, and it's going to be like ripping a paper in half - people will go this way and that, tearing jagged lines through their normal life causing struggles and leading them to one edge or the other.

Lots of worries. Lots of hope, but lots of worries also =/.

I also live in California, and at least, in my hometown, things in terms of reputation for the church have gone way up from where they are. Community Service projects are often reported in the newspaper, people tend to be more kind and giving, and loving and supporting of one another. We are just 'a church' in our area, we aren't necessarily 'those Mormons' or something derogatory... we are actually accepted somewhat. Which I am happy about. I have heard of other areas in California though, that are not so accepting of us... so I do not know much about how accepted we are beyond my little neighborhood in Orange County. =)

If anything, I have noticed that the news media (well, not the local ones, they seem to be doing quite fine in terms of less bias) has gotten very much more vocal and polarized, like you have said, and cynicality and bad feelings are kinda rampant. Now days I don't like watching the news much... sad imo =/.

If I may say so, I would say that neither truly is important for now... what will be important will each individual person we proselytize... from those missionaries. We need to prepare those missionaries well. Really well. And prepare our branches and stakes and wards... and members... prepare them for what is ahead.

I don't think we should count our numbers by head... I think we should count them by humble faithful heart, that I do. God is counting, not us =).

Best Wishes,

Your Friend,

TAO

I enjoyed your post. I think you presented some interesting insights.

[Rivers]

Because, stated that way, it sounds as if the best choice is to avoid joining the Church because it's easier to live without the Gospel on earth, and then accept it later: after all, there's always that "second chance".

Lehi

Its actually a first chance for those who never had one. The question is this: What exactly qualifies as a first chance to receive the gospel?

[why me]

The Internet does have a negative impact when it comes to someone investigating the church. If I were investigating the church at this moment and read the antimormon material on the Internet, I would definitely think twice before investigating the lds church. For those of us who have been members for years, we only need to imagine what the investigator feels when they read the Internet about Mormonism. It is definitely not a positive feeling.

Many people who do read the anti material hardly ever put the information through a critical thinking process. But they do accept what is written as fact. The internet is mostly about 15 minutes reads and then a surf to a new site. Much skimming also goes on with the information. But critical thought that requires making a careful judegement about what has been read may not be in the process of the reader.

I write the above from my own personal experience. When I discovered the anti material on the Internet about the lds church it had a tremendous impact on me. I felt bad and it harmed my viewpoint about the lds church even though I had been a member for years. It wasn't until I discovered the FAIR website and discussion board that my understanding of the material on anti sites was made more clear and a balance was restored.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Don't forget Denial.... it ain't just a river in Egypt...

[Questing Beast]

Anti-Mormon Websites are a dime a dozen. So too are apologetic sites. To assert that human beings are less critical in their thinking in the most sophisticated age of information dissemination is just giving into cynicism without evidence.

I have informed myself for many years. The Net came into my life about the same time as my most serious questioning occurred vis-a-vis the claims of the LDS faith vs. "the world". I ran smack into some pretty formidable anti-RELIGION personalities; not just anti-Mormon. Most but not all of them claimed to be atheists. I crossed swords with a few of them in extended debates. What I discovered as a consistent principle in their incomplete logic, or paradigm of disbelief, was a lack of consideration on why we Exist in the first place. Most atheists are content to study empirical science, and assert that it does not prove that there is a god, ergo lack of proof for god equals NO GOD.

The net result (no pun intended) in my life is a broadening of religious perspective; at the very same time as my religious dogma vanishes into uncertainty, I become more convinced that "God" is not to be confined to any dogmatic definition or concept, or any combination of such.

I perceive that more and more people individually are coming to something like my opening, questioning perspective about "God". Therefore the more dogmatic religions are failing to meet their needs or wants. That is the main reason why the latest slowdown in LDS convert growth is happening. And the main tool powering that perspective is the Internet....