Jason Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 What was the ridiculous question? H.Whether you can stick out your tongue and touch your nose.(See, there's another one)
Luigi Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 But rather than quibble over what the exact numbers are, maybe the real question is why has the church's growth slowed. Well first I would point out the Church is still growing-though not at the pace it once was and part of that has to do with the Church being as large as it is. If you get the same number of converts as in previous years but have a larger population your percentage growth is less even though you added the same number of people. However I think there is some slowing and here are some of the reasons I think that is the case:1. Smaller family size. This happens naturally as people become more affluent they have fewer children. LDS members still have a larger than average family size but the family size even among members has decreased and much if not most of the retained growth in the LDS Church (ie those who stay active) comes from those raised in the LDS Church.2.Secularization of society. As knowledge and science have progressed people have become increasingly secular and so converts, particularly in the developed world, are harder to come by and members are harder to retain.3.The internet. Admittedly I think as exmo's we vastly exaggerate the impact of the internet on the Church but I do think it has considerable influence and not just because it disseminates information (in fact I think that is a relatively small part of the influence) but because it also allows people to find others who share their worldview. Religion is highly dependent on social ties and the internet allows people to form new social ties outside of the religious culture. However that is also part of the reason that the internet is not as influential as people think because many people quickly find that the social ties created over the internet are unlikely to fill their social needs as effectively as religion.
LDSToronto Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Whether you can stick out your tongue and touch your nose.(See, there's another one)Ah, ok, you don't want to engage seriously. Not a problem. I'm cool with that.H.
The Nehor Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 This is a false dichotomy. There are those who are looking for truth, not a reason to leave or a reason to stay. Some find something that crack their faith a bit and don't know how to proceed.I, for example, am not looking for a reason to stay or to leave the church. I do want truthful answers, and regardless of how I modify my beliefs, I may choose to stay, despite what I find out. On the other hand, I may choose to leave based on what I discover, if I feel it is a necessary step.Don't try to put people in buckets. Sometimes, you stumble upon evidence, and can't ignore it.H.If you want to change the question to being about you, then go ahead. However, we can't discuss whether information will convince people on a macro level and then try to make it all about 'THE TRUTH'. If some information from Anti-Mormon sources convinces you that there is no God or that LDS doctrines don't have the truth about him you should carefully consider leaving. People are so different in what they take as evidence and what level of evidence is sufficient that trying to talk of growth in the Church and what you should do at the same time is silly.Also, if you are considering leaving at all then of course you are looking for reasons to stay or leave. You aren't making these decisions in some kind of vacuum.
Jason Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Ah, ok, you don't want to engage seriously. Not a problem. I'm cool with that.No, I'm not the one trying to make a ridiculous argument that being baptized and then never entering a church again is not a breach of promise.
Nathair/|\ Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Ah, yes. The catch-all commandment. The old "Something sounds good, so it must be a commandment but I can't prove it so I'll invoke D&C 58:26" trick. Here's a few more: "All church members must pay at least 2% of their income in fast offering""All church members must attend all ward events""All church members must avoid cola""Women must not wear pants to church""Men must wear white shirts to church"And I invoke D&C 58:26 on all of those things. Anyone else want to add a D&C 58:26-style commandment?Now, maybe I can get my question answered - Where do new converts specifically promise to attend Church meetings?H."Men must be clean shaven""Tuck your left arm behind the small of your back when passing the sacrament.""Mormon Doctrine is infallible."
LeSellers Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Oh yeah, on the topic of choosing "SIN": I would like anyone to back that one up with some real evidence. Just because someone stops church activity does not mean that they are choosing SIN instead.Not attending church when one under covenant is able to do so, is a sin. QED.People are getting better, not more wicked. Real efforts to study crime statistically (not anecdotal selection by the NOOZ) indicates that it is in decline and has been for many years.Crime ? Sin.Immorality (sexual sins) are on the rise, if nothing more than homosexuality, abortions much more frequent, far more ba$tards born to mothers who don't even bother to marry the children's fathers, drug usage rampant, and on and on. Violent crimes may be in decline, but that's not the only measure of serious sin: these others are on the rise, the skyrocketing rise. Most people quit religious activity over feelings of disenchantment with the Org; not some increasing desire to live it up at the expense of their neighbors...But an increasing action of living it up. They do not need to live it up by robbing their neighbors because they vote for the tax man to do that part for them. Lehi
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 And I invoke D&C 58:26 on all of those things. Anyone else want to add a D&C 58:26-style commandment?I invoke the no buying pop music cause it annoys me commandment under the authority of D&C 58:26!!!! ROFL
LDSToronto Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 If you want to change the question to being about you, then go ahead. However, we can't discuss whether information will convince people on a macro level and then try to make it all about 'THE TRUTH'. If some information from Anti-Mormon sources convinces you that there is no God or that LDS doctrines don't have the truth about him you should carefully consider leaving. People are so different in what they take as evidence and what level of evidence is sufficient that trying to talk of growth in the Church and what you should do at the same time is silly.Also, if you are considering leaving at all then of course you are looking for reasons to stay or leave. You aren't making these decisions in some kind of vacuum.I wasn't making this about me. I was responding to the statement, made by ELF:"As with all things, if you want to find reasons to leave the church, they are in abundance, and if you want to find reasons for stay, they also are in abundance. It just a matter of picking your side."I felt he was putting the cart before the horse. Sometimes, one isn't doing either - looking to stay, looking to leave. Sometimes, you are just happily living life, staring at a wall, and suddenly you are dragged out into the sunlight...H.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 D&C 59:9-12Good luck with your argument to God on Judgment Day that you never made any such promise. What other arguments do you think will work with Him? Indeed, do you think anyone, standing before God on Judgment Day is going to to be in any kind of state of mind to make any kind of arugment? The more likely scenario is that Judgment Day is just that, a day for judgment to be handed down. Evidence and aruguments are being presented now by our actions. The Rules of Court are found in the Standard Works. Don't expect a favorable judgment if you decide not to play by the rules.D&C 59:9-12 isn't part of the Baptismal Covenant though as far as I know.
Sky Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 None of those are promises to attend meetings (nearly) every Sunday. I can partake of the sacrament at home and my current calling rarely includes Sunday responsibilities.Once again, where do I make a specific promise to attend Sunday meetings, when joining the Church?H.I guess you could take the Sacrament at home
LDSToronto Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 No, I'm not the one trying to make a ridiculous argument that being baptized and then never entering a church again is not a breach of promise.Who argued that? All I wanted was a little evidence. Thank goodness for you, Mark Beesley has shown that sacrament meeting is a commandment. But not other meetings. You can still play. H.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 I guess you could take the Sacrament at home You can administer the sacrament in your home IF:1) You live in a remote area that has no branch or ward within traveling distance2) You are a Melchizedek Priesthood holder3) You have the permission of your District, Stake, or Mission President to hold a family service on Sunday and administer the sacrament in that service. If you do live near a ward or branch but are unable to make it to service due to health or other reasons you can speak with your priesthood leadership about the Aaronic Priesthood bringing you the sacrament on a scheduled basis (usually monthly).
The Nehor Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 I wasn't making this about me. I was responding to the statement, made by ELF:"As with all things, if you want to find reasons to leave the church, they are in abundance, and if you want to find reasons for stay, they also are in abundance. It just a matter of picking your side."I felt he was putting the cart before the horse. Sometimes, one isn't doing either - looking to stay, looking to leave. Sometimes, you are just happily living life, staring at a wall, and suddenly you are dragged out into the sunlight...H.I would disagree with your characterization of 'dragged out into the sunlight'.I agree with ELF. You can find justification for either course of action if you want.If you are troubled by information and haven't made a decision, get more information until you can make one. I'd advise books over the internet if that means anything. I'd also suggest the old formulas of pondering and praying.Oh, and if my testimony means anything, the gospel is true and real.Good luck.
Senator Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Also, another good reason why you should be attending your Sunday meetings is so you can enjoy fellowship with the Saints. Some find more enjoyment in that than others.
LDSToronto Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 I would disagree with your characterization of 'dragged out into the sunlight'.Have you read the Allegory of the Cave?Oh, and if my testimony means anything, the gospel is true and real.Of course it is. I question the box, not the pearl.H.
LDSToronto Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Also, another good reason why you should be attending your Sunday meetings is so you can enjoy fellowship with the Saints. You can
The Nehor Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Have you read the Allegory of the Cave?Many times. I don't think all knowledge gained fits the allegory though of course, some does. I'm guessing you aren't feeling liberated from darkness by this information based on your posts.Of course it is. I question the box, not the pearl.Joint package I'm afraid but even if the box is a little dinged, it is still a nice box. The pearl is worth a lot of dings.
Jason Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Who argued that? All I wanted was a little evidence. Thank goodness for you, Mark Beesley has shown that sacrament meeting is a commandment. But not other meetings. You can still play. H.So you agree with me that being baptized is also a commitment to attend meetings. Good to know.
LDSToronto Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 So you agree with me that being baptized is also a commitment to attend meetings. Good to know.Nope. I agree Mark Beesley showed that sacrament attendance is a commandment. I could argue that it's not specifically linked to the baptismal covenant, but I think that the renewal of baptismal covenants means one needs to be in the place where they are renewed.As for other meetings, I see no linkage, but you are free to show that linkage, since you made the claim that there is a promise made at baptism.H.
LDSToronto Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Many times. I don't think all knowledge gained fits the allegory though of course, some does. I'm guessing you aren't feeling liberated from darkness by this information based on your posts.I'm still banging into things from all the squinting.H.
sjdawg Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 I would suggest, however more than likely incorrectly; that the Anti's do us a favor by pruneing away the dead wood from the tree.Classy
sjdawg Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Joining the Church is giving your word to attend the meetings. Ceasing to attend the meetings is breaking your word. Breaking your word is sin. QED.I guess that is one way of looking at it. Another is that I was baptized at 8 years old with no life experience that would qualify me to make a decision whether or not to join the LDS church. You do what you parents want and expect of you. I don't believe in any God that would condemn me based on that.
ELF1024 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 ClassyAfter you've been one of the "pruned" then you can whine about my choice of words. Until then, being a pruned member, I don't offend myself.
sjdawg Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 After you've been one of the "pruned" then you can whine about my choice of words. Until then, being a pruned member, I don't offend myself.Not whining just making an observation.
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