The Real Concern Over Church Growth

[maupayman]

The new atheist movement has little to differentiate it from the old.

Except much more social acceptance.

[LDSToronto]

I think people are as gullible today as they've ever been. I have also not seen an increase in skepticism. Access to information does not make an education.

I suspect (no proof) that gullibility is generational. While access to information may not equal an education, it does facilitate education in ways that anyone over 30 has never experienced. A 15 year old, today, can access more information, and knows how to access more information, on any topic, than a 15 year old could just 10 years ago. And, information jockeying is second nature to kids nowadays; they are as adept at using the internet to cull information as we were at using telephones and card catalogues.

Don't underestimate the skills that the younger generation have with respect to information handling.

H.

[maupayman]

I have never ceased attending church meetings, they are just in a different building. So am I sinning?

Man, they don't like you. You don't fit into their pre-concieved box that deals with all reasons for leaving the church.

[ELF1024]

Really? The internet has changed nothing in regard to the accessibility of "anti-mormon" literature? If you really believe that, you obviously don't use the internet much, or maybe you think its a vast network of inter-connected tubes?

If your not looking for anti-LDS material, why would the Internet make any difference? I don't go looking for Anti-LDS material, so it doesn't impact my Internet use. I do agree that the material I have run across by accident has consisted of laughable content.

One of my favorite laughable content items is that any LDS male can take a photo of a woman into the Temple and be sealed to her without her consent or presence. If that were true, I'd be looking to get married to Jessica Alba and Jessica Biel... just for kicks...

[LDSToronto]

If your not looking for anti-LDS material, why would the Internet make any difference? I don't go looking for Anti-LDS material, so it doesn't impact my Internet use. I do agree that the material I have run across by accident has consisted of laughable content.

One of my favorite laughable content items is that any LDS male can take a photo of a woman into the Temple and be sealed to her without her consent or presence. If that were true, I'd be looking to get married to Jessica Alba and Jessica Biel... just for kicks...

You do understand that, in addition that kind of nonsense, one can also find information on multiple versions of the First Vision, Book of Mormon authorship, history of polygamy, the Book of Mormon witnesses, mormon philosophy, etc... written by apologists and historians alike, a good amount of it very compelling and well-supported, a good amount of it casting doubt on the truth claims of the church?

It's not all 'magic underwear' and haters.

H.

[ELF1024]

You do understand that, in addition that kind of nonsense, one can also find information on multiple versions of the First Vision, Book of Mormon authorship, history of polygamy, the Book of Mormon witnesses, mormon philosophy, etc... written by apologists and historians alike, a good amount of it very compelling and well-supported, a good amount of it casting doubt on the truth claims of the church?

It's not all 'magic underwear' and haters.

H.

As the Nehor said.... That axe swings both ways.

There is an equal amount of material out there that shows confirming evidence the Book of Mormon as a historical record thru the use of Archeology and Geography. As with all things, if you want to find reasons to leave the church, they are in abundance, and if you want to find reasons for stay, they also are in abundance. It just a matter of picking your side.

[sjdawg]

One of the things I found interesting (and surprising) as I left the LDS Church was how few people I spoke to indicated a profound belief in the gospel. Many people told me to stay for a variety of reasons, and provided a variety of reasons why they stay: Some examples

1. It is a good way of life

2. Until I find something better I am staying

3. Sure it has its warts but I need to teach my kids something

4. If I didn't have the church I would turn into a crazy sinner. It is the only thing keeping me grounded.

Only 1 person told me that they have had spiritual experiences that make them believe it is true. That person I have the greatest respect for and would never belittle his involvement in the church. These people were bishops, stake presidents, a General Authority, family members, friends. 1 person used spirituality as the reason they belong to the Chuch. Just 1.

Maybe that is why Church growth is slowing?

[LDS Guy 1986]

I think all can agree that the growth of the church has been slowing down.

No, you are wrong, Church growth hasn't slowed, the percentage has lowered from historical highs but the church is still the growing at almost double the rate of the world population, so I don't see why people make so much out of this. Source: http://en.wikipedia....bership_history

We are still in the top 5 for membership numbers and growth consistently, Source: http://www.washingto...rowth-stats-in/ http://www.mormonwik...m/Church_growth

Also one must remember that this Church has had explosive growth over the last few decades as the Church has entered many new nations and had a huge surge in membership from previously unrepresented nations. With the Church expansion across most of the world, I don't see how one would still expect to see the same growth numbers we saw 50 years ago. These percentages were so large because 1) the church membership was much smaller then and 2) the Restored Gospel was just becoming available to most of the world. As membership numbers increase, you also need to increase the number of baptism done each year or the percentage starts to drop.

Example:

If in 1990 we had 5,000,000 members and had a growth rate of 5 percent that means we baptized 250,000 people! Let's say next year we baptize another 250,000 people that means in 1991 there is 5,250,0000 which means our growth rate is 4.8 percent. Even though we matched our baptism rate for the year before we still had a lower growth rate because growth is based off of current membership. For the theoretical 1991 to be at 5% growth we would need to baptize 262,550 new members. Also remember that this doesn't mean all we need is 262,550 new baptisms but also enough baptism to offset members who pass away as well. As you can obviously see it is not very reasonable to expect the Church to consistently grow at at rate of 5 or 6 percent as it has in the past. The whole world would be Mormon within our lifetimes if that happened, which wouldn't be a bad thing but it's isn't reasonable to think that this will happen.

If this is God's church, isn't it suppose to fill the whole earth?

It has filled the whole Earth, there is very few places on the face of this Earth that is not part of a Mormon mission, we have new stakes and wards being organized around the world on a regular basis to meet the needs of our ever growing membership. We are also erecting temples at an unprecedented rate to serve the needs of the rapidly growing LDS populations around the world. Source: http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/

We have 350+ missions around the world and 110+ temples, the LDS Church is one of the largest Churches in the world in all categories that it is measured by the various organizations that record and analyze such records.

To suggest that the Church isn't filling the Earth simply because we are not getting the inflated rates of the 60's, 70's, and 80's due to the fact that many parts of the world were receiving the Restored Gospel for the first time in these decades, is disingenuous. The percentage was higher then because the membership numbers were lower then!

I can show this with the actual numbers the highest growth rates for the Church was in 1989 it was 8.74, we had addition of 587,234 members to the Church rolls. At that time the membership was 7,308,444. Today the membership is, almost double that at over 14,000,000. That reduces that 8.74% to a 4.1% growth rate using current membership numbers, in fact to have a 8.74 growth rate today we would need to have increase in membership of 1,223,600 people, and remember that isn't the minimum we need because membership numbers are based on living members so some baptisms are not growth for the Church but maintain our current numbers.

Now our current growth rate is around 2% about half of what is was for 1989 when adjusted for the growth of the membership between then and know, but also remember that we are not creating dozens no new missions any more nor should we expect the boom of 1898 which can also be attributed to the Book of Mormon being translated into many new languages allowing many people to become exposed to the Restored Gospel for the first time.

At a 2% rate for 14,000,000+ members we are looking at a growth rate of 280,000 members a year. This is a significant growth rate, and is why the LDS church is still one of the fastest growing Chruch's in America and across the world. So the critics claims are baseless, they expected reduction in GROWTH rates (that means that we are getting more new members than we are losing through members passing away, leaving the church, or being excommunicated)in the past few years do not mean the Church is losing members like some critics like to claim. Growth never means you are losing members, and the slowdown is expected since the Church has become so well known that those who were prepared for so long to hear the message of the Restored Gospel to flock to this message have joined already. Now we are working on those who the Lord is currently preparing but we would be silly to expect to see the massive droves that we saw when the Restored Gospel first became available around the world.

Or are only a very small almost undetectable number of God's children going to receive the blessings of the church?

This is a very loaded question, and seeing that the Church membership growth rate is still DOUBLE the growth rate of the world's population it seems that the question is pointless. God is calling his sons and daughters to his one true Church at a rate that is twice as high and the worldwide growth in population, so it is obvious that everyone who wants to join the flock of God will as we do the Lord's errand around the world.

Why aren't people as attracted to the church as much as they used to be?

They are but as I have previously stated and shown with sources and mathematical evidence. Scripturally though as we get closer to the second coming of Christ we will see persecutions of the Church continue to increase and this will cause the membership to shrink somewhat. But since we are still growing at DOUBLE the rate of the world's population we know that this is still a somewhere in the future.

Has the image of the church shifted?

No, the Church has stayed the same, the world's image has and still is shifting from righteousness to wickedness. The Church stands as a moral constant while the standards of the world slide further and further into the hands of Lucifer.

Did prop 8 present a church image of bigotry and homophobic?

Only to those who are already violently opposed to the Church, there is no bigotry of homophobia in prop 8 or the leadership of the Church. Believing that marriage is a sacred ordinance of God reserved for a man and a woman doesn't make some a bigot. I for one believe that the Government needs to get out of marraige, ensuring equal protection under the law is the governments job and I support homosexual couples having the same protections as heterosexual couples, I do not support homosexual marriage, marriage isn't a protection or a right, it is a sacred RELIGIOUS ordinance, and the state under the First Amendment has no right to regulate or change.

The government needs to stop trying to do the function of the Church and simply recognize legal couples not marriages, for the state to continue to recognize a religious function is Unconstitutional.

Is there still a lingering racist image from the ban of blacks and the priesthood?

Only for those violently opposed to the church.

Is polygamy still a lingering problem?

Only to those violently opposed to the Church.

Is it really the more you learn about the church, the less attractive it is?

Absolutely not, the more I learned of the Church and pondered it I came to realize how beautiful Heavenly Father's plan is, he allows us to lead ourselves into exaltation, he knows we will make mistakes and he allows us to so we can learn for ourselves right from wrong, good from evil, joy from misery. Without these things we cannot become like him, we cannot know joy if we never fell sorrow, we cannot know eternal life if we do not know death and fear. Yes the Church is not perfect, but you show me a Church with a perfect track record and I will gladly resign from the LDS Church and join that Church. Everything that man does has blemishes, this is why we have a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, he paid for those mistakes that we make along the way, and through the process of repentance we can be forgiven of our sins and inherit eternal life! Without him we are doomed eternally, but through him we can be and heir of God and a joint-heir of Christ (Romans 8:17)

Do people dismiss the church and Joseph Smith when they learn that he married a 14 year old girl or BY making racist statements in the 1800's?

No more than they can dismiss Muhammad for marrying a 12 Y/O or Abraham Lincoln for his racists statements in 1850's and 1860's (which coincides with BY!!!! Who would of thunk it! Brigham Young wasn't the only person such ideas in his time!!!).

People who violently oppose the Church like to use this junk, but it is only that JUNK! Culturally people reguarlly married young women some as young as 9 or 10 years old as little as 150 to 200 years ago, the further you go back in history the more common place it becomes. You cannot judge people by our current social standards but must judge them by the standard of the time they lived in. This also applies to Brigham Young and his statements about blacks, he is in a time where the overwhelming majority feels that blacks are inferior to whites, it doesn't make it right at all, but hey even the man credited with freeing the slaves Abraham Lincoln made the following statement in 1858 in Illinois "I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man." Source: http://en.wikipedia....debates_of_1858

Mr. Lincoln sounds like a die hard racist here, that's because he was a die hard racist and this is how the people thought back then. Lincoln fought to have all black's in America sent back to Africa while he was President, he even offered to pay there travel expenses with US funds, if they would agree to never return to the US. Yes, racism was and is, wrong and for the most part is gone in the US, but Anti-Slavery DOES NOT equal Anti-Racist! People were against people owning people back then because they saw it immoral, but they still saw blacks as inferior to whites. So the arguments against BY are useless unless you are also going to tear down the Lincoln memorial because Lincoln was a racist as well.

If this is the plan of happiness, why are so many people not participating?

Lack of knowledge and free will. First is lack of knowledge there are still many people who have never heard of the Church of read the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, this is why the Church has over 50,000 full time missionaries working in over 35o missions around the world, to bring the knowledge of the Restored Gosple of Jesus Christ to every person we can.

The other is free will also called choice, in the LDS Church was call this Agency. This means that God made us with the ability to make choices for ourselves, we can choose to do whatever we want, what we can't choose is the consequences and responsibilities of our actions. Some will read this message and not want to accept it or not want to follow the plan of happiness they are completely able to do so and no one in the Church will do anything to stop them from doing so.

Do they find more joy in sinning than living the gospel?

There is not way to answer this question since it is directed at individuals and I don't know anyone other than my self well enough to answer this for them!

Even the majority that join don't seem to remain active. If wickedness never was happiness, why are so many people choosing a sinful life?

Once again, this is too directed at the individual for me to be able to answer for anyone except myself. Personally I know that Satan is real, that he does tempt me as he is able with immorality and that his enticings are appear to be pleasurable and fun, he is an great deciver. The exists to pull as man down with him as he can, he can never have any glory for his rebellion against God. So he works 24/7 to see that he can keep as many as he can from returning to God in the Celestial Kingdom of Heaven.

Or is the world just more wicked and the message is falling on deaf ears?

This is probably part of it, we know that as the second coming draws near, that Satan will have more and more influence and control over the world and that the message of the Restored Gospel will be constantly under attack of being drowned out and removed from the public as a whole.

It is the end of the world and God is winding things down.

We are living in the signs that the end of the world is drawing near, there are wars and rumors of wars, there is disaster, famine, plague, and civil unrest of unprecedented scales. Man has waxed cold and there is strife and conflict amongst all the world. Only God knows when the tribulation will start and when Christ will return in all his Glory on the Morning of the First Resurrection, when Christ returns and rules as King from his throne in Zion!

[ELF1024]

One of the things I found interesting (and surprising) as I left the LDS Church was how few people I spoke to indicated a profound belief in the gospel. Many people told me to stay for a variety of reasons, and provided a variety of reasons why they stay: Some examples

1. It is a good way of life

2. Until I find something better I am staying

3. Sure it has its warts but I need to teach my kids something

4. If I didn't have the church I would turn into a crazy sinner. It is the only thing keeping me grounded.

Only 1 person told me that they have had spiritual experiences that make them believe it is true. That person I have the greatest respect for and would never belittle his involvement in the church. These people were bishops, stake presidents, a General Authority, family members, friends. 1 person used spirituality as the reason they belong to the Chuch. Just 1.

Maybe that is why Church growth is slowing?

I left the church a number of years ago,because I wasn't as strong in my testimony as I should have been. I allowed worldly distrations to entice me and I fell off the straight and narrow. Years later, I now have an appt with the Stake High Council to get permission to be rebaptized. Why? Because I do honestly believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that the LDS Church is the only Church that has the fullness of the Gospel.

I was excommunicated because of my actions, I could very easily have become an aspotate and fought against Zion, but I could not deny my testimony of the Book of Mormon. Not even when I was fully involved in the depts of sin.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I doubt anyone joined the church because it was popular.

Maybe the RCC since it is the largest Church in the world, but you definitely didn't become a Mormon to win any popularity contests with the possible exception of some Utah Saints, the Church does have a majority in Utah so there I could see someone joining thinking it was the popular thing to do.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Actually, I think you will find the internet has made access to literature, personal experiences and history that is critical of the Church MUCH more accessible, organized and easier to find than ever before.

Yes, but the quality of the literature has decreased dramatically and on the flip side the internet is also being used by the Church to reach millions of people that before they couldn't. The internet IMO is helping the Church gain far more members than the Anti's are taking away with there junk.

[ELF1024]

Maybe the RCC since it is the largest Church in the world, but you definitely didn't become a Mormon to win any popularity contests with the possible exception of some Utah Saints, the Church does have a majority in Utah so there I could see someone joining thinking it was the popular thing to do.

I suppose it depends on where in Utah you stood at the time. I've lived their twice. And I actually spend more time engrossed in Sin in Utah than I did outside of Utah. I would never willingly choose to move back.

[sjdawg]

I left the church a number of years ago,because I wasn't as strong in my testimony as I should have been. I allowed worldly distrations to entice me and I fell off the straight and narrow. Years later, I now have an appt with the Stake High Council to get permission to be rebaptized. Why? Because I do honestly believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that the LDS Church is the only Church that has the fullness of the Gospel.

I was excommunicated because of my actions, I could very easily have become an aspotate and fought against Zion, but I could not deny my testimony of the Book of Mormon. Not even when I was fully involved in the depts of sin.

Good for you. My experience has been the opposite. I left because I don't believe and I have not been enticed by "worldly distractions" to use your term. I could go back tomorrow, pay my tithing, and be "worthy" of a temple recommend, but I won't.

[ELF1024]

Maybe the RCC since it is the largest Church in the world, but you definitely didn't become a Mormon to win any popularity contests with the possible exception of some Utah Saints, the Church does have a majority in Utah so there I could see someone joining thinking it was the popular thing to do.

I would suggest, however more than likely incorrectly; that the Anti's do us a favor by pruneing away the dead wood from the tree.

[maupayman]

I left the church a number of years ago,because I wasn't as strong in my testimony as I should have been. I allowed worldly distrations to entice me and I fell off the straight and narrow. Years later, I now have an appt with the Stake High Council to get permission to be rebaptized. Why? Because I do honestly believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that the LDS Church is the only Church that has the fullness of the Gospel.

I was excommunicated because of my actions, I could very easily have become an aspotate and fought against Zion, but I could not deny my testimony of the Book of Mormon. Not even when I was fully involved in the depts of sin.

Well, then you and I left for very different reasons. I can very easily now deny what I once called my testimony of the Book of Mormon.

[ELF1024]

Good for you. My experience has been the opposite. I left because I don't believe and I have not been enticed by "worldly distractions" to use your term. I could go back tomorrow, pay my tithing, and be "worthy" of a temple recommend, but I won't.

Well, then you and I left for very different reasons. I can very easily now deny what I once called my testimony of the Book of Mormon.

I'm not sure how to respond, other than to say that I hope your life and your experiences either validate your actions, or that at some point you change your mind.

[Jason]

According to you it is a sin. Whether or not it actually is remains to be seen. There is also the option that the Mormon baptism means nothing.

Joining the Church is giving your word to attend the meetings. Ceasing to attend the meetings is breaking your word. Breaking your word is sin. QED.

[LDSToronto]

As the Nehor said.... That axe swings both ways.

There is an equal amount of material out there that shows confirming evidence the Book of Mormon as a historical record thru the use of Archeology and Geography. As with all things, if you want to find reasons to leave the church, they are in abundance, and if you want to find reasons for stay, they also are in abundance. It just a matter of picking your side.

This is a false dichotomy. There are those who are looking for truth, not a reason to leave or a reason to stay. Some find something that crack their faith a bit and don't know how to proceed.

I, for example, am not looking for a reason to stay or to leave the church. I do want truthful answers, and regardless of how I modify my beliefs, I may choose to stay, despite what I find out. On the other hand, I may choose to leave based on what I discover, if I feel it is a necessary step.

Don't try to put people in buckets. Sometimes, you stumble upon evidence, and can't ignore it.

H.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I have never ceased attending church meetings, they are just in a different building. So am I sinning?

That is all about perspective, to you obviously not.

To me, no, in my humble opinion the LDS is the true Church and RLDS and Community of Christ are break off's without the proper priesthood (just as you feel the same about LDS I am sure) but your division is from not accepting Brigham Young as the Prophet called after Joseph Smith's martyrdom. This is not good but it is not a sin, there was many members who were excommunicated for rejecting the Prophet in Kirtland after the KST crisis. They still had faith in Jesus Christ, they simply lost faith in the Prophet and the Church.

Importance is in having faith in the Restored Gospel not in men, you will and can lose faith in men. Many of those excommunicated later rejoined the LDS church or started other break offs, but they all still had there faith in Jesus Christ and there testimony of the the truth of the Book of Mormon, just like you do BookofMormonLuvr.

That is the fundamental component of salvation faith in Christ and trust in the Gospel, personally I think that the various splinter groups will all have the chance to become unified with the true Church (which for me is LDS and you RLDS, we will have to wait and see in the spirit world I guess) as long as they held to the Iron Rod and maintained there faith in Jesus Christ and only lost faith in a prophet.

This is all my humble opinion though and only that, I do not know what the view of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is on the matter, and this is not to be taken as the policy or doctrine of the LDS Church!

[Jason]

Real circular logic here is: asserting that the "quality" of anti-Mormon literature was higher before the Internet. As the Internet's contents come directly from the publications that predated it, how exactly does the quality diminish just because it enters the Internet?

Because any idiot can create a new web page repeating all the stuff that was already there with worse spelling and his own inane observations taked on. Therefore the average quality has diminished with the rise in the number of web pages.

And are people today more prone to believe crap than before? Conversely, are people more inclined to be skeptical today than before? I'd actually assert "yes" to that last question; because "once burned twice shy".

Presentism.

[Jason]

I have never ceased attending church meetings, they are just in a different building. So am I sinning?

If you were baptized into one church and now attend the meetings of a different church then you broke your word, yes.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I suppose it depends on where in Utah you stood at the time. I've lived their twice. And I actually spend more time engrossed in Sin in Utah than I did outside of Utah. I would never willingly choose to move back.

That another down side of living as a Mormon in Utah, there is a lot more complacency in Utah than in North Carolina where I live.

In Utah there is a lot of LDS and people are more relaxed, in NC (where I live) we got a strong presence (2 missions a temple and many stakes and wards) but we are still are a very small minority. So we tend to be less complacent because we are around non LDS all the time and trying to be the best representatives we can. Also there isn't any Anti-Mormon gorups in NC (unlike UT) I heard one Anti-Moromn group that somewhat formed around 1999 to try and get the Raleigh North Carolina Temple plans scrapped, but they quickly fell apart after the groundbreaking for the temple.

[LDSToronto]

Joining the Church is giving your word to attend the meetings. Ceasing to attend the meetings is breaking your word. Breaking your word is sin. QED.

Please show me where one makes a promise to attend meetings. I don't recall making such a promise.

H.

[ELF1024]

This is a false dichotomy. There are those who are looking for truth, not a reason to leave or a reason to stay. Some find something that crack their faith a bit and don't know how to proceed.

I, for example, am not looking for a reason to stay or to leave the church. I do want truthful answers, and regardless of how I modify my beliefs, I may choose to stay, despite what I find out. On the other hand, I may choose to leave based on what I discover, if I feel it is a necessary step.

Don't try to put people in buckets. Sometimes, you stumble upon evidence, and can't ignore it.

H.

You and I will have to disagree on that. I do believe that you have the choice to stay or leave based on the information you find. Sure, there are plenty of reasons I find the documentation about Polygamy disturbing and even reprehensable. Many things that have been said and documented are against what I believed was done as polygamy as practiced.

However, you either choose to allow it to fester in your soul, or you resolve that you do not know the truth, and that you will find out the truth later, perhaps in the next life. I have resolved to find the truth of Polygamy in the next life, and I do not believe that we have the fullness of the truth about it now. It has been distorted by the anti's and by well meaning Church members who wished to whitewash it.

However, I still have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, and if the Book of Mormon is a true historical document, then Joseph Smith must have been a prophet. All else falls into place.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I would suggest, however more than likely incorrectly; that the Anti's do us a favor by pruneing away the dead wood from the tree.

You are 50/50 there I would say, you are right that those looking to leave have the Anti's to help them along, but I would much rather see the full time missionaries or ward missionaries to be able to get in those homes and restore and renew there faith instead of Anti's leading them out of the Church.

Especially since the Anti's use so many lies, I will gladly talk about the controversies of the Church as long as we are talking about the truth not that spin garbage the Anti's spew everywhere.

I feel it is far better for the Church to get the correct information in the members hands and let them decide what is right for them and do what they feel is right, instead of allow the Anti's to use there lies to poison someone against the Church for a long time.