The Real Concern Over Church Growth

[BookofMormonLuvr]

That is all about perspective, to you obviously not.

To me, no, in my humble opinion the LDS is the true Church and RLDS and Community of Christ are break off's without the proper priesthood (just as you feel the same about LDS I am sure) but your division is from not accepting Brigham Young as the Prophet called after Joseph Smith's martyrdom. This is not good but it is not a sin, there was many members who were excommunicated for rejecting the Prophet in Kirtland after the KST crisis. They still had faith in Jesus Christ, they simply lost faith in the Prophet and the Church.

Importance is in having faith in the Restored Gospel not in men, you will and can lose faith in men. Many of those excommunicated later rejoined the LDS church or started other break offs, but they all still had there faith in Jesus Christ and there testimony of the the truth of the Book of Mormon, just like you do BookofMormonLuvr.

That is the fundamental component of salvation faith in Christ and trust in the Gospel, personally I think that the various splinter groups will all have the chance to become unified with the true Church (which for me is LDS and you RLDS, we will have to wait and see in the spirit world I guess) as long as they held to the Iron Rod and maintained there faith in Jesus Christ and only lost faith in a prophet.

This is all my humble opinion though and only that, I do not know what the view of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is on the matter, and this is not to be taken as the policy or doctrine of the LDS Church!

That might be the best thing I have ever seen you type!

We have agreed on three subjects so far in the last two days. What is this world coming to?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

If you were baptized into one church and now attend the meetings of a different church then you broke your word, yes.

I made a promise to God that I would follow His Son, and I have continued to do that according to my best ability and understanding.

[LDS Guy 1986]

We have agreed on three subjects so far in the last two days. What is this world coming to?

You know what it is, it's that unification thing I was speaking of! We know that Christ is getting ready to return any second because we are agreeing more and more often!! REPENT FOR THE END IS NEAR!

[Nathair/|\]

Ah, yes. The catch-all commandment. The old "Something sounds good, so it must be a commandment but I can't prove it so I'll invoke D&C 58:26" trick.

Here's a few more:

"All church members must pay at least 2% of their income in fast offering"

"All church members must attend all ward events"

"All church members must avoid cola"

"Women must not wear pants to church"

"Men must wear white shirts to church"

And I invoke D&C 58:26 on all of those things. Anyone else want to add a D&C 58:26-style commandment?

Now, maybe I can get my question answered - Where do new converts specifically promise to attend Church meetings?

H.

101 more

[mnn727]

What is causing the slowdown of church growth

The KJV of the Bible - its not understandable by the average American of today.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The KJV of the Bible - its not understandable by the average American of today.

The Church doesn't require members to study only the KJV of the Bible, I know many Mormon's that use NIV or the American Standard Translation in personal and family study for simplicity.

The only time the Church requires the KJV to be used is for teaching lessons and giving talks, the reason why is they want a unified translation to reduce confusion among the membership.

I personally love the KJV, it is so poetic and the language requires me to ponder the verses more and helps me get more out of my study but I reference NIV and AST online at times for clarification of confusing passages, there is nothing wrong with that.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I think all can agree that the growth of the church has been slowing down.

No, you are wrong, Church growth hasn't slowed, the percentage has lowered from historical highs but the church is still the growing at almost double the rate of the world population, so I don't see why people make so much out of this. Source: http://en.wikipedia....bership_history

We are still in the top 5 for membership numbers and growth consistently, Source: http://www.washingto...rowth-stats-in/ http://www.mormonwik...m/Church_growth

Also one must remember that this Church has had explosive growth over the last few decades as the Church has entered many new nations and had a huge surge in membership from previously unrepresented nations. With the Church expansion across most of the world, I don't see how one would still expect to see the same growth numbers we saw 50 years ago. These percentages were so large because 1) the church membership was much smaller then and 2) the Restored Gospel was just becoming available to most of the world. As membership numbers increase, you also need to increase the number of baptism done each year or the percentage starts to drop.

Example:

If in 1990 we had 5,000,000 members and had a growth rate of 5 percent that means we baptized 250,000 people! Let's say next year we baptize another 250,000 people that means in 1991 there is 5,250,0000 which means our growth rate is 4.8 percent. Even though we matched our baptism rate for the year before we still had a lower growth rate because growth is based off of current membership. For the theoretical 1991 to be at 5% growth we would need to baptize 262,550 new members. Also remember that this doesn't mean all we need is 262,550 new baptisms but also enough baptism to offset members who pass away as well. As you can obviously see it is not very reasonable to expect the Church to consistently grow at at rate of 5 or 6 percent as it has in the past. The whole world would be Mormon within our lifetimes if that happened, which wouldn't be a bad thing but it's isn't reasonable to think that this will happen.

If this is God's church, isn't it suppose to fill the whole earth?

It has filled the whole Earth, there is very few places on the face of this Earth that is not part of a Mormon mission, we have new stakes and wards being organized around the world on a regular basis to meet the needs of our ever growing membership. We are also erecting temples at an unprecedented rate to serve the needs of the rapidly growing LDS populations around the world. Source: http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/

We have 350+ missions around the world and 110+ temples, the LDS Church is one of the largest Churches in the world in all categories that it is measured by the various organizations that record and analyze such records.

To suggest that the Church isn't filling the Earth simply because we are not getting the inflated rates of the 60's, 70's, and 80's due to the fact that many parts of the world were receiving the Restored Gospel for the first time in these decades, is disingenuous. The percentage was higher then because the membership numbers were lower then!

I can show this with the actual numbers the highest growth rates for the Church was in 1989 it was 8.74, we had addition of 587,234 members to the Church rolls. At that time the membership was 7,308,444. Today the membership is, almost double that at over 14,000,000. That reduces that 8.74% to a 4.1% growth rate using current membership numbers, in fact to have a 8.74 growth rate today we would need to have increase in membership of 1,223,600 people, and remember that isn't the minimum we need because membership numbers are based on living members so some baptisms are not growth for the Church but maintain our current numbers.

Now our current growth rate is around 2% about half of what is was for 1989 when adjusted for the growth of the membership between then and know, but also remember that we are not creating dozens no new missions any more nor should we expect the boom of 1898 which can also be attributed to the Book of Mormon being translated into many new languages allowing many people to become exposed to the Restored Gospel for the first time.

At a 2% rate for 14,000,000+ members we are looking at a growth rate of 280,000 members a year. This is a significant growth rate, and is why the LDS church is still one of the fastest growing Chruch's in America and across the world. So the critics claims are baseless, they expected reduction in GROWTH rates (that means that we are getting more new members than we are losing through members passing away, leaving the church, or being excommunicated)in the past few years do not mean the Church is losing members like some critics like to claim. Growth never means you are losing members, and the slowdown is expected since the Church has become so well known that those who were prepared for so long to hear the message of the Restored Gospel to flock to this message have joined already. Now we are working on those who the Lord is currently preparing but we would be silly to expect to see the massive droves that we saw when the Restored Gospel first became available around the world.

Or are only a very small almost undetectable number of God's children going to receive the blessings of the church?

This is a very loaded question, and seeing that the Church membership growth rate is still DOUBLE the growth rate of the world's population it seems that the question is pointless. God is calling his sons and daughters to his one true Church at a rate that is twice as high and the worldwide growth in population, so it is obvious that everyone who wants to join the flock of God will as we do the Lord's errand around the world.

Why aren't people as attracted to the church as much as they used to be?

They are but as I have previously stated and shown with sources and mathematical evidence. Scripturally though as we get closer to the second coming of Christ we will see persecutions of the Church continue to increase and this will cause the membership to shrink somewhat. But since we are still growing at DOUBLE the rate of the world's population we know that this is still a somewhere in the future.

Has the image of the church shifted?

No, the Church has stayed the same, the world's image has and still is shifting from righteousness to wickedness. The Church stands as a moral constant while the standards of the world slide further and further into the hands of Lucifer.

Did prop 8 present a church image of bigotry and homophobic?

Only to those who are already violently opposed to the Church, there is no bigotry of homophobia in prop 8 or the leadership of the Church. Believing that marriage is a sacred ordinance of God reserved for a man and a woman doesn't make some a bigot. I for one believe that the Government needs to get out of marraige, ensuring equal protection under the law is the governments job and I support homosexual couples having the same protections as heterosexual couples, I do not support homosexual marriage, marriage isn't a protection or a right, it is a sacred RELIGIOUS ordinance, and the state under the First Amendment has no right to regulate or change.

The government needs to stop trying to do the function of the Church and simply recognize legal couples not marriages, for the state to continue to recognize a religious function is Unconstitutional.

Is there still a lingering racist image from the ban of blacks and the priesthood?

Only for those violently opposed to the church.

Is polygamy still a lingering problem?

Only to those violently opposed to the Church.

Is it really the more you learn about the church, the less attractive it is?

Absolutely not, the more I learned of the Church and pondered it I came to realize how beautiful Heavenly Father's plan is, he allows us to lead ourselves into exaltation, he knows we will make mistakes and he allows us to so we can learn for ourselves right from wrong, good from evil, joy from misery. Without these things we cannot become like him, we cannot know joy if we never fell sorrow, we cannot know eternal life if we do not know death and fear. Yes the Church is not perfect, but you show me a Church with a perfect track record and I will gladly resign from the LDS Church and join that Church. Everything that man does has blemishes, this is why we have a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, he paid for those mistakes that we make along the way, and through the process of repentance we can be forgiven of our sins and inherit eternal life! Without him we are doomed eternally, but through him we can be and heir of God and a joint-heir of Christ (Romans 8:17)

Do people dismiss the church and Joseph Smith when they learn that he married a 14 year old girl or BY making racist statements in the 1800's?

No more than they can dismiss Muhammad for marrying a 12 Y/O or Abraham Lincoln for his racists statements in 1850's and 1860's (which coincides with BY!!!! Who would of thunk it! Brigham Young wasn't the only person such ideas in his time!!!).

People who violently oppose the Church like to use this junk, but it is only that JUNK! Culturally people reguarlly married young women some as young as 9 or 10 years old as little as 150 to 200 years ago, the further you go back in history the more common place it becomes. You cannot judge people by our current social standards but must judge them by the standard of the time they lived in. This also applies to Brigham Young and his statements about blacks, he is in a time where the overwhelming majority feels that blacks are inferior to whites, it doesn't make it right at all, but hey even the man credited with freeing the slaves Abraham Lincoln made the following statement in 1858 in Illinois "I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man." Source: http://en.wikipedia....debates_of_1858

Mr. Lincoln sounds like a die hard racist here, that's because he was a die hard racist and this is how the people thought back then. Lincoln fought to have all black's in America sent back to Africa while he was President, he even offered to pay there travel expenses with US funds, if they would agree to never return to the US. Yes, racism was and is, wrong and for the most part is gone in the US, but Anti-Slavery DOES NOT equal Anti-Racist! People were against people owning people back then because they saw it immoral, but they still saw blacks as inferior to whites. So the arguments against BY are useless unless you are also going to tear down the Lincoln memorial because Lincoln was a racist as well.

If this is the plan of happiness, why are so many people not participating?

Lack of knowledge and free will. First is lack of knowledge there are still many people who have never heard of the Church of read the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, this is why the Church has over 50,000 full time missionaries working in over 35o missions around the world, to bring the knowledge of the Restored Gosple of Jesus Christ to every person we can.

The other is free will also called choice, in the LDS Church was call this Agency. This means that God made us with the ability to make choices for ourselves, we can choose to do whatever we want, what we can't choose is the consequences and responsibilities of our actions. Some will read this message and not want to accept it or not want to follow the plan of happiness they are completely able to do so and no one in the Church will do anything to stop them from doing so.

Do they find more joy in sinning than living the gospel?

There is not way to answer this question since it is directed at individuals and I don't know anyone other than my self well enough to answer this for them!

Even the majority that join don't seem to remain active. If wickedness never was happiness, why are so many people choosing a sinful life?

Once again, this is too directed at the individual for me to be able to answer for anyone except myself. Personally I know that Satan is real, that he does tempt me as he is able with immorality and that his enticings are appear to be pleasurable and fun, he is an great deciver. The exists to pull as man down with him as he can, he can never have any glory for his rebellion against God. So he works 24/7 to see that he can keep as many as he can from returning to God in the Celestial Kingdom of Heaven.

Or is the world just more wicked and the message is falling on deaf ears?

This is probably part of it, we know that as the second coming draws near, that Satan will have more and more influence and control over the world and that the message of the Restored Gospel will be constantly under attack of being drowned out and removed from the public as a whole.

It is the end of the world and God is winding things down.

We are living in the signs that the end of the world is drawing near, there are wars and rumors of wars, there is disaster, famine, plague, and civil unrest of unprecedented scales. Man has waxed cold and there is strife and conflict amongst all the world. Only God knows when the tribulation will start and when Christ will return in all his Glory on the Morning of the First Resurrection, when Christ returns and rules as King from his throne in Zion!

[Tapir Whisperer]

We are living in the signs that the end of the world is drawing near, there are wars and rumors of wars, there is disaster, famine, plague, and civil unrest of unprecedented scales. Man has waxed cold and there is strife and conflict amongst all the world. Only God knows when the tribulation will start and when Christ will return in all his Glory on the Morning of the First Resurrection, when Christ returns and rules as King from his throne in Zion!

This sounds like a description of almost any point in world history.

[LDS Guy 1986]

This sounds like a description of almost any point in world history.

I disagree, constant war amongst nations is a quite modern concept, before 100 years ago there was no way to be constantly at war our production rates and our logistic capabilities were to slow to be able to manage such a massive movement of troops and goods like we see in GWOT and other continuing conflicts around the world.

Yes, there has always been war and natural disasters, but were defiantly seeing a noticeable increase in frequency and destructive power of our wars and natural disasters, this is the signs Christ talked of!

Also remember that in LDS doctrine 1 day to Christ and God is the equivalent of 1,000 years on earth so, to Christ all this stuff started only a few minuets ago, even though it has been progressing on Earth for roughly 75-100 years.

[sandyk]

Western Christianity, including Mormonism, is in or near decline in part because the baby boom era is over. That is slower to become obvious in the LDS church. Another cultural factor is that most young adults today have no first-hand experience with Christianity and they carry the perceptions described in this link. The Barna Group is an evangelical/conservative research group. http://www.barna.org/teens-next-gen-articles/94-a-new-generation-expresses-its-skepticism-and-frustration-with-christianity

[LDS Guy 1986]

Western Christianity, including Mormonism, is in or near decline in part because the baby boom era is over. That is slower to become obvious in the LDS church. Another cultural factor is that most young adults today have no first-hand experience with Christianity and they carry the perceptions described in this link. The Barna Group is an evangelical/conservative research group. http://www.barna.org...th-christianity

Why do you think the baby boom era ending made Christianity decline?

Do you know that it was AFTER the baby boom (which lasted from 1946 to 1964) that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints saw it's massive growth (Church growth skyrocketed from the late 70's to early 90's) and that it currently still growing world wide at a rate that is more than two times the rate the world population grows?

In a earlier post on this thread I discuss this in detail I was just wondering if you knew these things or it barna.org was aware of it either?

[sandyk]

Why do you think the baby boom era ending made Christianity decline?

Do you know that it was AFTER the baby boom (which lasted from 1946 to 1964) that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints saw it's massive growth (Church growth skyrocketed from the late 70's to early 90's) and that it currently still growing world wide at a rate that is more than two times the rate the world population grows?

In a earlier post on this thread I discuss this in detail I was just wondering if you knew these things or it barna.org was aware of it either?

Many, perhaps most denominations are growing in areas outside the West. In Western cultures, the post world war II baby boom produced positive growth internally. LDS maintained that growth for religious reasons and was slower to be affected by that factor. Other cultural influences are less "brand loyalty" to a denomination, and Christianity is less authoritative to culture and less the center of social life today. These are factors that were slower to show up in LDS, but the decline in growth rate it shows signs of being touched by all of these.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Many, perhaps most denominations are growing in areas outside the West. In Western cultures, the post world war II baby boom produced positive growth internally. LDS maintained that growth for religious reasons and was slower to be affected by that factor. Other cultural influences are less "brand loyalty" to a denomination, and Christianity is less authoritative to culture and less the center of social life today. These are factors that were slower to show up in LDS, but the decline in growth rate it shows signs of being touched by all of these.

I don't see them slowing up at all from all I have heard we are growing in the US at a average rate of 1.4% and growing around the world at a rate of 2%.

I agree that many faiths have been impacted but the culture change in America, and that this has had impacts of LDS, but I disagree that is causing our Church of decline like you said. I think our Church is uniquely equipped to deal with this cultural shift since we are so focused on families, we have at least 1 evening a week to spend together, we do community service together regularly, most of us have a weekly family council where everyone helps make decisions. We have a strong structure to nurture and raise our children in the truths of the Restored Gospel and this is why our Church continues to grow and prosper despite the changing moral values of the US.

I think a lot of our success has to do with many of or traditional values, for example Mormons strongly believe in having a parent stay home full time to raise children instead of having two working parents.

I just don't see the decline in Mormonism you say there is, the numbers and actions of the Church (with building more and more temples and meeting houses around the world at an ever increasing pace) don't fit into your statement is all that I am saying.

[Deborah]

Facts about church growth

The church has filled the earth, but not necessarily in the form of convert baptisms. We have temples all over the world, our humanitarian services have gone to areas where the missionaries may not be allowed, and our genealogy services are used by members and non-members alike throughout the world.

[LeSellers]

Your baptismal covenants are:

1) To take upon yourself the name of Christ

2) Stand as a witness of Christ

3) Follow his Commandments

8 And it came to pass that [Alma] said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another

[Sky]

It's somewhat hard to share one another's burdens if you don't see them regularly. It's hard to mourn with those who mourn if you don't know they're bereaved. Those who need comfort are a mystery to those they have not seen since their pain.

While church is a place of learning (also a reason to attend regularly), the real reason for the existence of meetings (in addition to renewing covenants) is to keep in touch with the other Saints.

But, as I demonstrate above, it is virtually impossible to keep those covenants without attending church meetings.

I submit that to lose faith in those He has chosen is to have lost faith in Him.

Those covenants are integral to the Priesthood of God which is not found outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Lehi

Good post, Lehi. And the scriptures back up what you say:

D&C 84: 36-38:

For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father

[Rivers]

The new atheist movement has little to differentiate it from the old.

Yes. But atheistic ideas are coming more popular with the new movement. The God Delusion was a best-selling book. You wouldn't have seen an atheist book become that popular 20 years ago.

[california boy]

No, you are wrong, Church growth hasn't slowed, the percentage has lowered from historical highs but the church is still the growing at almost double the rate of the world population, so I don't see why people make so much out of this. Source: http://en.wikipedia....bership_history

We are still in the top 5 for membership numbers and growth consistently, Source: http://www.washingto...rowth-stats-in/ http://www.mormonwik...m/Church_growth

Also one must remember that this Church has had explosive growth over the last few decades as the Church has entered many new nations and had a huge surge in membership from previously unrepresented nations. With the Church expansion across most of the world, I don't see how one would still expect to see the same growth numbers we saw 50 years ago. These percentages were so large because 1) the church membership was much smaller then and 2) the Restored Gospel was just becoming available to most of the world. As membership numbers increase, you also need to increase the number of baptism done each year or the percentage starts to drop.

Example:

If in 1990 we had 5,000,000 members and had a growth rate of 5 percent that means we baptized 250,000 people! Let's say next year we baptize another 250,000 people that means in 1991 there is 5,250,0000 which means our growth rate is 4.8 percent. Even though we matched our baptism rate for the year before we still had a lower growth rate because growth is based off of current membership. For the theoretical 1991 to be at 5% growth we would need to baptize 262,550 new members. Also remember that this doesn't mean all we need is 262,550 new baptisms but also enough baptism to offset members who pass away as well. As you can obviously see it is not very reasonable to expect the Church to consistently grow at at rate of 5 or 6 percent as it has in the past. The whole world would be Mormon within our lifetimes if that happened, which wouldn't be a bad thing but it's isn't reasonable to think that this will happen.

It has filled the whole Earth, there is very few places on the face of this Earth that is not part of a Mormon mission, we have new stakes and wards being organized around the world on a regular basis to meet the needs of our ever growing membership. We are also erecting temples at an unprecedented rate to serve the needs of the rapidly growing LDS populations around the world. Source: http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/

We have 350+ missions around the world and 110+ temples, the LDS Church is one of the largest Churches in the world in all categories that it is measured by the various organizations that record and analyze such records.

To suggest that the Church isn't filling the Earth simply because we are not getting the inflated rates of the 60's, 70's, and 80's due to the fact that many parts of the world were receiving the Restored Gospel for the first time in these decades, is disingenuous. The percentage was higher then because the membership numbers were lower then!

I can show this with the actual numbers the highest growth rates for the Church was in 1989 it was 8.74, we had addition of 587,234 members to the Church rolls. At that time the membership was 7,308,444. Today the membership is, almost double that at over 14,000,000. That reduces that 8.74% to a 4.1% growth rate using current membership numbers, in fact to have a 8.74 growth rate today we would need to have increase in membership of 1,223,600 people, and remember that isn't the minimum we need because membership numbers are based on living members so some baptisms are not growth for the Church but maintain our current numbers.

Now our current growth rate is around 2% about half of what is was for 1989 when adjusted for the growth of the membership between then and know, but also remember that we are not creating dozens no new missions any more nor should we expect the boom of 1898 which can also be attributed to the Book of Mormon being translated into many new languages allowing many people to become exposed to the Restored Gospel for the first time.

At a 2% rate for 14,000,000+ members we are looking at a growth rate of 280,000 members a year. This is a significant growth rate, and is why the LDS church is still one of the fastest growing Chruch's in America and across the world. So the critics claims are baseless, they expected reduction in GROWTH rates (that means that we are getting more new members than we are losing through members passing away, leaving the church, or being excommunicated)in the past few years do not mean the Church is losing members like some critics like to claim. Growth never means you are losing members, and the slowdown is expected since the Church has become so well known that those who were prepared for so long to hear the message of the Restored Gospel to flock to this message have joined already. Now we are working on those who the Lord is currently preparing but we would be silly to expect to see the massive droves that we saw when the Restored Gospel first became available around the world.

I guess one can look at statistics in a lot of different ways Consider this. The world population is approximately 6.7 billion. The number of baptized Mormons is around 14 million This means that about 0.22% of the world's population is Mormon. When you add into that the percentage of those Mormons that are actually active, the numbers participating in "God's plan for happiness" is pretty much inconsequencial don't you think? Add to that the number of souls that lived when the church was not here on earth and the percentages get even more tiny. Remember we are talking here less that a quarter of one percent. Yikes

Is all I am saying is that if this is the plan of happiness for mankind to be redeemed, then it is almost not registering as anything significant. I realize there is baptism for the dead. But if you look at the big picture, really what you have to conclude is that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth. For the church to be of any significants to mankind, doesn't the church have to grow significantly faster than at the current rate that barely is keeping up with the increase in population??

I found this article interesting

Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth) and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."[3]

Do you still think that the growth rate of the church is of no concern?

[california boy]

Prop 8? Right?

If you think my post is all about prop 8, you arre mistaken. While I firmly believe that prop 8 has significantly damaged the churches image among a significant portion of the population, it is not the only issue. Consider this"

Washington Post-ABC News Poll: Majority of Americans Support Marriage Equality

A new poll from the Washington Post and ABC News shows, for the first time, a majority supporting same-sex marriage:

Five years ago, at 36 percent, support for gay marriage barely topped a third of all Americans. Now, 53 percent say gay marriage should be legal, marking the first time in Post-ABC polling that a majority has said so.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

As a person who supports the LDS position regarding gay marriage/prop 8/etc... I can tell you I am completely unconcerned by the views of those who would think less of me for taking that stand. It is of absolutely no concern to me.

[jskains]

If you think my post is all about prop 8, you arre mistaken. While I firmly believe that prop 8 has significantly damaged the churches image among a significant portion of the population, it is not the only issue. Consider this"

Washington Post-ABC News Poll: Majority of Americans Support Marriage Equality

Support for equality for all Americans including gay marriage has been shifting for some time. As time moves on, the church will probably be viewed as being prejudice against gays just like the position they found itself against blacks when the population moved toward equality for them as well.

First, I think like others, I am tired of the loaded buzz words like "equality". They are dishonest and emotionally manipulative. Second, like alcoholism or adultery or various other behaviors blamed on genetics, homosexuality is not, now ever will be in the same class as blacks. It is NOT a race, it is a behavior. No black man has had to wake up one day and "realize" he is black, or tell his parents he is black.

Can the Australian couple who are a father and daughter claim their civil rights are being violated? Equality America - Protecting Incest from the bigotry of American ignorance! *eyeroll*

JMS

[LDS Guy 1986]

It's somewhat hard to share one another's burdens if you don't see them regularly. It's hard to mourn with those who mourn if you don't know they're bereaved. Those who need comfort are a mystery to those they have not seen since their pain.

This is why the Lord has blessed us with telephone and internet, I was out of work for two months last summer because someone hit me on my motorcycle. But because of cell phone and especially cell phone cameras, I knew everything that was going on with all my coworkers and my job even though I only stopped by twice for a few mins (to drop off paperwork my boss needed).

Our advances in communication technology, means we can know what is going on with each other even though we only see each other periodically. I found out about my ward members needs, losses, and mourning through Facebook, email and telephone far more than face to face on Sundays. In fact I truly feel that if I stopped attending Sunday services I could still maintain my current level of activity and fulfill my calling as a ward missionary without any problems. I go to Sunday services as a sign of respect to heavenly father not because they are required of me.

While church is a place of learning (also a reason to attend regularly), the real reason for the existence of meetings (in addition to renewing covenants) is to keep in touch with the other Saints.

Which really have no spiritual value, one needs far more lessons than once a week (in fact the church teaches the HOME not the ward is where the majority of our teaching is to be done) and as I said before modern communication technology makes face to face meetings unnecessary to communicate our needs, the only time you need face to face is when we are serving our brothers and sisters, not simply talking to them.

But, as I demonstrate above, it is virtually impossible to keep those covenants without attending church meetings.

The problem is you haven't demonstrated anything at all as I have shown above, your points are moot or unnecessary.

I submit that to lose faith in those He has chosen is to have lost faith in Him.

Baloney, to lose faith in a man is natural cause men make mistakes, my faith is in the LORD not a man. Man makes mistakes and if something makes mistake you can lose faith in it!

Those covenants are integral to the Priesthood of God which is not found outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I agree with you that the Priesthood of God is only found in the LDS Chruch (but we have many RLDS brethren here who disagree with us on this), but where in the baptismal covenant does it say that a person needs to attend services to be saved?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Good post, Lehi. And the scriptures back up what you say:

Also, see 1st Nephi 14:12 (I think in a nutshell it answers the questions posed by the OP):

It says he who receiveth my servents recieveth me, so when you recieve the missionaries and are baptized you do recieve the Holy Ghost.

It doesn't say in that verse though that he who reject (or loses faith) my servants reject (or loses faith in) me!

You are taking D&C 84 out of context to support ideas that it doesn't make.

Show me a verse that says that losing faith in a prophet is losing faith in Christ, if you want me to give your position any weight at all.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I guess one can look at statistics in a lot of different ways Consider this. The world population is approximately 6.7 billion. The number of baptized Mormons is around 14 million This means that about 0.22% of the world's population is Mormon. When you add into that the percentage of those Mormons that are actually active, the numbers participating in "God's plan for happiness" is pretty much inconsequencial don't you think?

You ignore proxy ordinances for the dead, and you also ignore that the work is still ongoing here so your have nothing to go on here at all. So there are many more that will come to the Restored Gospel in this life and in the next, plus we are not in a rush, we know that in the end all will declare that Christ is the Lord so we can pace ourselves!

The Church is growing at double the rate of increase in the world's population, and has done this consistently. The statements you made were plain and simple incorrect, there has been no significant decrease in growth for the Chruch any where in the world. When one looks at the figures and analyzes the data you see that we are still growing and growing strongly. To say that because we had a net growth of 500,000 in the 80's and only have net growths of 250,000 now ignores that fact that this time was one of explosive expansion in the Church that brought massive numbers of people the Restored Gospel for the first time. We have no where else to continue the explosive expansion so the numbers cannot explode still.

You are ignoring the data and twisting it to fit your designs which is unethical and unscientific.

But if you look at the big picture, really what you have to conclude is that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth.

This is wrong on so many levels, those who lived without ever receiving a knowledge of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, can receive it in the spirit world and still gain the highest degree of Celestial Glory. You are flat out wrong the plan of Happiness for everyone, if they choose to have it.

So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth.

If you never had a knowledge of the Restored Gospel it isn't important at all, this is the entire point of the Spirit World to bring the Restored Gospel to those who died without a knowledge of it. You are so wrong if is sad, you really need to take with some missionaries to learn the basics of LDS theology.

For the church to be of any significants to mankind, doesn't the church have to grow significantly faster than at the current rate that barely is keeping up with the increase in population??

Did you read anything I posted, the Church is growing at DOUBLE the rate of increase of the population of the ENTIRE WORLD!

That means people people are joining the LDS Church at at higher rate than the World's Population is increasing.

We are fine on growth and I think our growth is something we should be proud of.

There is no "growth crisis" for the LDS Church, unless you make the numbers lie.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Wickedness

Apathy