The Real Concern Over Church Growth

[semlogo]

I think people are becoming less religious in general, at least in the first world.

[Sky]

This is why the Lord has blessed us with telephone and internet, I was out of work for two months last summer because someone hit me on my motorcycle. But because of cell phone and especially cell phone cameras, I knew everything that was going on with all my coworkers and my job even though I only stopped by twice for a few mins (to drop off paperwork my boss needed).

Our advances in communication technology, means we can know what is going on with each other even though we only see each other periodically. I found out about my ward members needs, losses, and mourning through Facebook, email and telephone far more than face to face on Sundays. In fact I truly feel that if I stopped attending Sunday services I could still maintain my current level of activity and fulfill my calling as a ward missionary without any problems. I go to Sunday services as a sign of respect to heavenly father not because they are required of me.

Telephone and internet are all fine and great, but they are certainly no replacement or substitute for attending Sunday meetings and interacting with your fellow Saints on a face-to-face basis. Can you feel the Holy Spirit as easily from being on the internet as you can when you are in a building dedicated for worship? I can

[Sky]

It says he who receiveth my servents recieveth me, so when you recieve the missionaries and are baptized you do recieve the Holy Ghost.

It doesn't say in that verse though that he who reject (or loses faith) my servants reject (or loses faith in) me!

You are taking D&C 84 out of context to support ideas that it doesn't make.

Show me a verse that says that losing faith in a prophet is losing faith in Christ, if you want me to give your position any weight at all.

I always thought the verses that I shared in D&C 84 were pretty self-explanatory. If a person doesn

[ELF1024]

Wickedness

Apathy

Don't forget Denial.... it ain't just a river in Egypt...

[LDS Guy 1986]

I always thought the verses that I shared in D&C 84 were pretty self-explanatory. If a person doesn

[LDS Guy 1986]

Can you feel the Holy Spirit as easily from being on the internet as you can when you are in a building dedicated for worship?

Apparently the prophet can because the first presidency regularly have video conferences with the Apostles and Area Authorities from HQ in SLC. A member of our ward works for the company that the Church bought this equipment from to make these "virtual boardrooms" and the Prophet himself was the one to give the thumbs up because he said he could feel the Spirit as if he was in the same room with the bretheren across the world.

So yes you can feel the spirit through technology, like I have said and will continue to say, the only reason anyone attends sacrament meeting is to show our love for God, there is NO benefit in waking up early (really early for the ward leaders) to be sitting through 3 hours of meetings every Sunday, except as a sign of our love and devotion to Heavenly Father.

Now 50 or 60 years ago you had a point, today you don't modern technology has eliminated the usefulness of the Sunday meeting. We can get the information quicker and from a dozen more sources than we can through the sunday meetings.

Now there still has to be face to face interactions but the point of the weekly meetings isn't to socialize it's to learn, we socialize outside of Sunday meetings, so your only valid reason (to meet weekly) is moot, no matter what if you are an active member you will see everyone during the week through home teachings, your callings, scouts, ect

There is no need for Sunday meetings besides showing out devotion to Heavenly Father every week by sitting through it patiently and reverently.

[Sky]

Yes, found in the LDS Church I agree, what I do not agree is that one must from that point forward always believe the President of the LDS Church to believe God.

If you lose faith in the prophet, that is NOT losing faith in GOD, only in a prophet, who makes mistakes and when he makes mistakes we people are expected to lose faith in him.

This idea that one must be a puppet of the President of the Church to have faith in Christ or Heavenly Father is wrong IMO.

Many people enter this Church, recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost, and lose faith in the people of the Church and end up in one of the various RLDS groups. They have not lost faith in Christ or Heavenly Father, they only lost faith in a man!

They also lose the Gift of the Holy Ghost. You can

[BookofMormonLuvr]

They also lose the Gift of the Holy Ghost. You can

[Sky]

Apparently the prophet can because the first presidency regularly have video conferences with the Apostles and Area Authorities from HQ in SLC. A member of our ward works for the company that the Church bought this equipment from to make these "virtual boardrooms" and the Prophet himself was the one to give the thumbs up because he said he could feel the Spirit as if he was in the same room with the bretheren across the world.

So yes you can feel the spirit through technology, like I have said and will continue to say, the only reason anyone attends sacrament meeting is to show our love for God, there is NO benefit in waking up early (really early for the ward leaders) to be sitting through 3 hours of meetings every Sunday, except as a sign of our love and devotion to Heavenly Father.

Now 50 or 60 years ago you had a point, today you don't modern technology has eliminated the usefulness of the Sunday meeting. We can get the information quicker and from a dozen more sources than we can through the sunday meetings.

Now there still has to be face to face interactions but the point of the weekly meetings isn't to socialize it's to learn, we socialize outside of Sunday meetings, so your only valid reason (to meet weekly) is moot, no matter what if you are an active member you will see everyone during the week through home teachings, your callings, scouts, ect

There is no need for Sunday meetings besides showing out devotion to Heavenly Father every week by sitting through it patiently and reverently.

I never said that you can

[Sky]

What is, exactly, the "right kind of faith" in Jesus Christ?

The way I see it

[LDS Guy 1986]

I never said that you can

[LDS Guy 1986]

I still think the verses that I shared in D&C 84 don

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The way I see it

[LDS Guy 1986]

The way I see it

This is the point, we don't care about personal opinions here we care about scripture, if you are going to say that losing faith in the Prophet is losing faith in Christ and Heavenly Father. You have to have scripture to back it up, or your simply naive and wrong.

God is not a respecter of persons my friend (See Acts 10:34), so he sees us all as equals. If we are all equals and equally flawed (in our own ways) then how does he make MY faith in HIM depended on any MAN?

The answer is that he doesn't, you are right to find Christ you need to find his proper servants but to maintain your faith in Christ is between you and Christ there is no intermediary that you need faith in as well, especially one as flawed and full of mistakes as man is!

[LDS Guy 1986]

So I have to trust in a mortal men (who just happen to be the leaders of your church) in order to have faith in Jesus Christ? Gotcha

Hey, I'm as confused as you are about this, it makes less sense than the rapture to me. LOL

Sorry, doesn't fly with me. I take everything with a grain of salt and compare it to scripture, even the stuff coming from the RRLDS Priesthood.

I do the same with the LDS priesthood leaders, of course if the President of the Church receives new revelation I give that weight over past revelation as the newest revelations from God for us.

Jesus Christ is the only One I am trying to please (and miserably fail at often (pray for me)).

Hey, don't beat yourself up too much, I'm in the same boat! I can only hope that Christ shows his mercy to this fool of a man also! So worst comes to worst we chill in the Telestial Kingdom, I still get the top bunk though!

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Hey, I'm as confused as you are about this, it makes less sense than the rapture to me. LOL

I do the same with the LDS priesthood leaders, of course if the President of the Church receives new revelation I give that weight over past revelation as the newest revelations from God for us.

Hey, don't beat yourself up too much, I'm in the same boat! I can only hope that Christ shows his mercy to this fool of a man also! So worst comes to worst we chill in the Telestial Kingdom, I still get the top bunk though!

Hopefully, it is one of those with the queen size bottom bunk.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Hopefully, it is one of those with the queen size bottom bunk.

That's cool with me, I just like the top bunk, until I fall out of it!

[LeSellers]

LDS Guy appears to be quoting me when the source of the quotes is possibly california boy.

I'd ask that he correct this misconception by editing his message.

Lehi

[LDS Guy 1986]

I'd ask that he correct this misconception by editing his message.

Lehi

I don't know how that happened but did I fix the right one?

[LeSellers]

I don't know how that happened but did I fix the right one?

Yes, thank you.

I had the same thing happen to me a year ago: it happens when you least expect it.

Lehi

[Sky]

See I think you have it backwards there, I think GC is far better in person, and Sunday service via the internet on my computer!

The point still stands that if you can feel the spirit of GC over a internet connection, it is more than good for Sunday meetings!

Yes, General Conference is better is person, and I highly recommend it for anybody who has not experienced that. But to me, watching it through satellite or internet is a close second. And you don

[Sky]

Well that is why you are NOT the called prophet of God, because you are adding to the scriptures.

So again please tell me how D&C 84 says that if you lose faith in the prophet, you have lost faith in Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ?

How?

So where does the scriptures define this "right kind of faith" or did Heavenly Father call you to be the one to determine what the "right faith" is?

I never said or purported to be the prophet of God (I

[california boy]

You ignore proxy ordinances for the dead, and you also ignore that the work is still ongoing here so your have nothing to go on here at all. So there are many more that will come to the Restored Gospel in this life and in the next, plus we are not in a rush, we know that in the end all will declare that Christ is the Lord so we can pace ourselves!

The Church is growing at double the rate of increase in the world's population, and has done this consistently. The statements you made were plain and simple incorrect, there has been no significant decrease in growth for the Chruch any where in the world. When one looks at the figures and analyzes the data you see that we are still growing and growing strongly. To say that because we had a net growth of 500,000 in the 80's and only have net growths of 250,000 now ignores that fact that this time was one of explosive expansion in the Church that brought massive numbers of people the Restored Gospel for the first time. We have no where else to continue the explosive expansion so the numbers cannot explode still.

You are ignoring the data and twisting it to fit your designs which is unethical and unscientific.

This is wrong on so many levels, those who lived without ever receiving a knowledge of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, can receive it in the spirit world and still gain the highest degree of Celestial Glory. You are flat out wrong the plan of Happiness for everyone, if they choose to have it.

If you never had a knowledge of the Restored Gospel it isn't important at all, this is the entire point of the Spirit World to bring the Restored Gospel to those who died without a knowledge of it. You are so wrong if is sad, you really need to take with some missionaries to learn the basics of LDS theology.

Did you read anything I posted, the Church is growing at DOUBLE the rate of increase of the population of the ENTIRE WORLD!

That means people people are joining the LDS Church at at higher rate than the World's Population is increasing.

We are fine on growth and I think our growth is something we should be proud of.

There is no "growth crisis" for the LDS Church, unless you make the numbers lie.

You got my post SO wrong I am going to repost it for you. Please read it again carefully.

I

I guess one can look at statistics in a lot of different ways Consider this. The world population is approximately 6.7 billion. The number of baptized Mormons is around 14 million This means that about 0.22% of the world's population is Mormon. When you add into that the percentage of those Mormons that are actually active, the numbers participating in "God's plan for happiness" is pretty much inconsequencial don't you think? Add to that the number of souls that lived when the church was not here on earth and the percentages get even more tiny. Remember we are talking here less that a quarter of one percent. Yikes

Is all I am saying is that if this is the plan of happiness for mankind to be redeemed, then it is almost not registering as anything significant. I realize there is baptism for the dead. But if you look at the big picture, really what you have to conclude is that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth. For the church to be of any significants to mankind, doesn't the church have to grow significantly faster than at the current rate that barely is keeping up with the increase in population??

I found this article interesting

As you can see, I did NOT forget ordinances for the dead. In FACT it is the whole point of my post. My post is NOT about the church having a growth crisis. It is simply about the percentage of total population of mankind that are and have been members. My point is that approximately .22% that is LESS than one fourth of one percent are members of the church in the world today. That number is drastically smaller when you calculate the number of people who have EVER been Mormon that have lived on the face of the earth. Hence my comment that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth. If you disagree with this statement, then you are going to have to somehow show that a significant amount of the TOTAL population of the earth has or at some point in the future will be members of the church WHILE HERE ON EARTH. Otherwise I stand by my statement.

Exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth.

If you can come up with a higher number than .22& of the worlds population please state it. And you sir are going to have to explain how you stand by this statement.

You are ignoring the data and twisting it to fit your designs which is unethical and unscientific

.

I will just ignore your other FALSE statements such as me stating that:

the statements you made were plain and simple incorrect, there has been no significant decrease in growth for the Chruch any where in the world.

Sorry I NEVER said that.

cheeze, just read the post. Don't go postal. If you have a comment, I am all ears. Hopefully my CAPITAL LETTERS will help you through the reading process. Like I said at the start of my post. "Consider this"

[Nathair/|\]

You got my post SO wrong I am going to repost it for you. Please read it again carefully.

I

As you can see, I did NOT forget ordinances for the dead. In FACT it is the whole point of my post. My post is NOT about the church having a growth crisis. It is simply about the percentage of total population of mankind that are and have been members. My point is that approximately .22% that is LESS than one fourth of one percent are members of the church in the world today. That number is drastically smaller when you calculate the number of people who have EVER been Mormon that have lived on the face of the earth. Hence my comment that exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth. If you disagree with this statement, then you are going to have to somehow show that a significant amount of the TOTAL population of the earth has or at some point in the future will be members of the church WHILE HERE ON EARTH. Otherwise I stand by my statement.

Exaltation must be mostly for people who have never been members of the church while on earth. So how important is it to be a member of the church while here on earth.

If you can come up with a higher number than .22& of the worlds population please state it. And you sir are going to have to explain how you stand by this statement.

.

I will just ignore your other FALSE statements such as me stating that:

Sorry I NEVER said that.

cheeze, just read the post. Don't go postal. If you have a comment, I am all ears. Hopefully my CAPITAL LETTERS will help you through the reading process. Like I said at the start of my post. "Consider this"

Well, the Lord needs plenty of warm bodies in those temples getting the proxy work done for every one else.

[california boy]

First, I think like others, I am tired of the loaded buzz words like "equality". They are dishonest and emotionally manipulative. Second, like alcoholism or adultery or various other behaviors blamed on genetics, homosexuality is not, now ever will be in the same class as blacks. It is NOT a race, it is a behavior. No black man has had to wake up one day and "realize" he is black, or tell his parents he is black.

Can the Australian couple who are a father and daughter claim their civil rights are being violated? Equality America - Protecting Incest from the bigotry of American ignorance! *eyeroll*

JMS

Being Mormon is not a race either. It is like Alcoholism or adultery or various other behaviors. Do you think it would be ok to discriminate against Mormons? Do you think it would be ok for the population of a state to decide if Mormons could marry? Just how do you decide who gets equality in this country? Are not alcoholics allowed to marry? Are not those that commit adultry allowed to marry? I can certainly see why you hate the use of the word equality. It is such a pesky problem in America.

My only statement was this More and more people ARE viewing gay marriage as a equality issue. I certainly get the fact that some Mormons do not. You evidently being one of those. But now there are MORE Americans that view this issue as an equality issue than those that like you who do not. Sorry that is what the poll results said. You did read the poll report didn't you???