The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

[Hughes]

Hughes, on 08 February 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

So you believe that a symbolic action of getting wet is a requirement for salvation?

The author of Hebrews did...

"Let us draw near..."

Doesn't equal, "you are only saved, when..."

[Hughes]

"Paradise" must be underground then...

That very well could be.

[Pahoran]

We only know what was recorded. If you want I can preface each and every statement I make with the words, "based on what was written..." just for you?

IOW, you have "blind faith" that if something is not recorded in the Bible, then it never happened, anywhere, ever.

Amazing.

As a Christian, I find myself obligated to reject your idolatry.

And as for the Thief, he died just like Jesus did on a cross, as that's what the text indicates.

It is the LDS that claims baptism for the dead means anything, without any evidence to support such claims. I don't buy it.

Your rejection counts in its favour.

Regards,

Pahoran

[LeSellers]

So you believe that a symbolic action of getting wet is a requirement for salvation?

Yes, as that is what Jesus taught. I believe Jesus.

As for the Thief. He clearly was saved, as Jesus said he would be with him.

He did say the malefactor would be with Him in Paradise. That does not necessarily mean that he, the malefactor, would be saved. Paradise does not mean the Kingdom of God. If it did, you have yet to show it. I believe you are wallowing in an assumption.

The very definition of salvation and/or Heaven is "present with the Lord".

You have yet to show that "Paradise" is equivalent to "heaven". The Bible does not say it, so you are just assuming your conclusion.

Peter is explicit that Jesus did not go to heaven. He says that Jesus went to prison and taught the disobedient so they could be judged as men and then live according to God. If He was in prison, He was not in Heaven. This is confirmed by the account of His resurrection when He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father. If He was in prison, as Peter said, and He had not yet ascended to Heaven, as He told Mary, then your conclusion that the malefactor was saved because he was with Jesus in Paradise is erroneous.

Further, I reject your assertion that "salvation" is "present with the Lord". It's more than that. Jesus can go other placed than Heaven and those who are with Him in Heaven will not all go wherever that may be.

Lehi

[LDS Guy 1986]

"Salvation can only come by baptism".

This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and grace.

Baptism is not a requirement!

One attains eternal life (salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

Note no mention of baptism.

Jesus made it clear I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

Again no mention of baptism, apparently to o2bewise, Jesus must have misspoken here.

I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus our Lord that whosoever speaks against Him by stating baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus.

one love

You must ignore John 3:5 though for your argument to hold water. Christ clearly states in John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." he also says "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:" (Luke 13:24-25)

He says no man can enter into the kingdom of God and that we can only enter the master's house though the strait gate. Baptism is a biblical requirement for heaven, to use other scriptures to try and dilute this necessary ordinance is to ignore the example of Christ.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

"Salvation can only come by baptism".

This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and grace.

Baptism is not a requirement!

One attains eternal life (salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

Note no mention of baptism.

Jesus made it clear I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

Again no mention of baptism, apparently to o2bewise, Jesus must have misspoken here.

I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus our Lord that whosoever speaks against Him by stating baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus.

one love

Sweet...a sermon. I don't think they are allowed.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Jesus baptizes via the Holy Spirit (Mat 3:11 and Mark 1: and never personally baptized with water as far we know. If water baptism is so important, why didn

[Calm]

So you believe that a symbolic action of getting wet is a requirement for salvation?

Being obedient is a requirement for salvation.

[Calm]

Well if you do not know that Jesus was baptized that is only because you do not read the Holy Bible enough.

I believe EV is talking about Jesus doing the baptizing, not being baptized himself.

[Calm]

Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called

[LDS Guy 1986]

I believe EV is talking about Jesus doing the baptizing, not being baptized himself.

Why would Christ baptize? John the baptist was there to do baptisms, he was there holding the Aaronic priesthood so he could administer to the temporal matters (such as baptism by water) while Christ is the head of the Melkesadek Priesthood (as we are told in Hebrews 5:6) to administer to the spiritual things (such as baptism by spirit).

Christ was on a far more important mission of restoring the true Church to the Earth and to offer himself up as the infinite sacrifice, he didn't have time (also he had someone already to perform baptisms) to be baptizing he was restoring the Gospel and the true Church while teaching all the Jews who would listen the fullness of the Gospel.

Moses delegated responsibilities to other persons, because he could not be everywhere at once. How do you expect Christ to be teaching the entire Jewish people the Gospel and baptizing in the river Jordan?

[LeSellers]

Jesus obedience for us, but did Jesus have to get saved by a water baptism because He was a sinner before??

No one here is going to argue that He was a sinner, but He clearly said that He must have been baptized to "fulfill all righteousness".

Born of water mean born of the Word of God or the water of the instruction book the Milk and food we need to gear the true gospel!

On what on earth do you base this heresy on?

Jesus baptizes via the Holy Spirit and never personally baptized with water as far we know. If water baptism is so important, why didn

[Bernard Gui]

You may believe the Bible is insufficient. I disagree.

If it is sufficient to define the doctrine of baptism, then all Christians would

follow the same practices. They do not, therefore, it is not sufficient.

Please quote the passage where the father says we are to be baptized, before the foundation of the world.

Moses 6

51And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh.

52And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.

53And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden.

54Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.

55And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

56And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.

57Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can well there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

58Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

59That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

61Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

63And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

64And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.

65And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

66And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

67And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

68Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.

The Word of the Lord

Bernard

[webbles]

Having faith is obedience. IF you have faith you will also obey his commands, but first you must have faith, as it alone is what saves you, which is obedience. The separate actions of following Christ's commands is done out of love. You have faith, and love him for what he's done for you, so you do what he says out of a grateful heart.

Sorry, the Thief on the cross wasn't baptized. The LDS are only fooling themselves on this point.

Let's not try and redefine what obedience is, ok? Obedience is obeying God's commandments. Pure and simple. But you right in that we are commanded to have faith so if we don't have faith we are disobeying. But it is not the only thing that we are commanded to do.

Now, let me try and reword what you just said:

1. Faith saves you

2. Faith makes you want to obey

Am I correct so far?

Now, I'm going to make an assumption

3. If you have faith and do not obey (and do not repent), the faith will not save you.

Example: I have faith in Christ but I commit adultery. I have faith in Christ but I do not get baptized. I have faith in Christ but I lie. I never repent of these sins. If these statements were true, I would not be saved even though I have faith.

Is my assumption correct? If it is, then the only logic conclusion is that both faith and obedience are necessary. Because if disobedience can cause you to loose salvation, then obviously faith is not the only factor in salvation.

[Anakin7]

From some of our Non LDS Christians Bretheran on Baptism- http://www.angelfire.com/az2/biblesonnyb/Tracts/MustIbebaptized.htm

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

Hughes back to Baptism as essential from our Catholic Christians comrads - http://www.catholic...._of_Baptism.asp

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Above is from our Catholic Christian Bretheran on Baptism.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Hughes]

Yes, as that is what Jesus taught. I believe Jesus.

He did say the malefactor would be with Him in Paradise. That does not necessarily mean that he, the malefactor, would be saved. Paradise does not mean the Kingdom of God. If it did, you have yet to show it. I believe you are wallowing in an assumption.

You have yet to show that "Paradise" is equivalent to "heaven". The Bible does not say it, so you are just assuming your conclusion.

Peter is explicit that Jesus did not go to heaven. He says that Jesus went to prison and taught the disobedient so they could be judged as men and then live according to God. If He was in prison, He was not in Heaven. This is confirmed by the account of His resurrection when He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father. If He was in prison, as Peter said, and He had not yet ascended to Heaven, as He told Mary, then your conclusion that the malefactor was saved because he was with Jesus in Paradise is erroneous.

Further, I reject your assertion that "salvation" is "present with the Lord". It's more than that. Jesus can go other placed than Heaven and those who are with Him in Heaven will not all go wherever that may be.

Lehi

Well, if it's what you believe Jesus taught, then far be it from me to try and change your beliefs.

I disagree, of course. Jesus didn't put a priority on baptism, rather it was relationships and matters of the heart. What are the two greatest commandments? Love God and Love your neighbor. Relationships.

Following a ritual or a symbolic act is meaningless in and of itself. It has meaning only if it represents what has happened in the inner man.

[Hughes]

Being obedient is a requirement for salvation.

Right. And having faith in Christ is the only obedient action required for salvation. Everything else is out of our love for Christ. Our disobedience doesn't make us not his children after that point.

[Hughes]

So according to your own quote, Sheol---and therefore paradise which existed in Sheol---is not Heaven since Christ took those inhabitants of Paradise to Heaven when he ascended.

No. According to the Hebrew view of the afterlife, paradise was equal to Heaven or Abraham's Bosom (side).

[Hughes]

If it is sufficient to define the doctrine of baptism, then all Christians would

follow the same practices. They do not, therefore, it is not sufficient.

The Word of the Lord

Bernard

First, you make a leap of logic that doesn't connect.

The bible may or may not define baptism accurately or succinctly, but that doesn't control what all Christians would think or believe. The two aren't connected, sorry.

And your quote of Moses doesn't have what you claim, at least not the phrasing you claimed, "the father says we are to be baptized, before the foundation of the world."

[volgadon]

No. According to the Hebrew view of the afterlife, paradise was equal to Heaven or Abraham's Bosom (side).

And it was temporary, as was the flipside, Gehenna. It also wasn't heaven, nor is a bossom a side.

[Anakin7]

Jesus didn't go to Hell after he died, he went to Paradise. Forgive me for copying this but instead of me telling you, this guy has said what I would say already.

"In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

"Salvation can only come by baptism".

This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and grace.

Baptism is not a requirement!

One attains eternal life (salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

Note no mention of baptism.

Jesus made it clear I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

Again no mention of baptism, apparently to o2bewise, Jesus must have misspoken here.

I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus our Lord that whosoever speaks against Him by stating baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus.

one love

You do know that Paul had to be baptized to have his sins remitted, and receive salvation. You know Paul, he whom most of you quote to say that baptism is not necessary.

BTW

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And it was temporary, as was the flipside, Gehenna. It also wasn't heaven, nor is a bossom a side.

I think it great, Hughes will come back and tell you how wrong you are and that you just don't understand the Jewish view of things.

[Doctor Steuss]

Twice as many verses mention grace/faith/belief/trust without water baptism than verses that mention baptism.

I'll have to keep this method of extracting Christian doctrines in mind next time I notice the ratio of times G-d commands people to kill vs. the number of times He says not to kill.