The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Ever since his basic assumptions were discredited, evangelist has been conspicuously absent from this thread.

Hit and run...I liked his numbers ratio thing about scripture.

[Hughes]

Let's not try and redefine what obedience is, ok? Obedience is obeying God's commandments. Pure and simple. But you right in that we are commanded to have faith so if we don't have faith we are disobeying. But it is not the only thing that we are commanded to do.

Now, let me try and reword what you just said:

1. Faith saves you

2. Faith makes you want to obey

Am I correct so far?

Now, I'm going to make an assumption

3. If you have faith and do not obey (and do not repent), the faith will not save you.

Example: I have faith in Christ but I commit adultery. I have faith in Christ but I do not get baptized. I have faith in Christ but I lie. I never repent of these sins. If these statements were true, I would not be saved even though I have faith.

Is my assumption correct? If it is, then the only logic conclusion is that both faith and obedience are necessary. Because if disobedience can cause you to loose salvation, then obviously faith is not the only factor in salvation.

1. Faith in Christ alone, yes.

2. Faith in Christ alone changes your heart and makes you want to serve him, yes.

3. If you have faith in Christ alone, you will still sin. This is what Paul explained in Romans 6 (I think). "The thing I want to do, I don't do, the thing I don't want to do I do...." It's not the doing or not doing that saves, but true faith and trust in Christ.

Now, you added, "and do not repent". A repentant attitude is the mark of a Christian. One who doesn't have such an attitude doesn't understand who he is committed to. In other words, "I die daily..."

You conclude that disobedience can cause you to loose your salvation. I disagree. I would say that it's the lack of faith or trust or connection to Christ that would cause us to lose our salvation. Or to put it another way, loving someone or something more than we love Christ. Sin is but a temporary obstacle, but the lack of focus and trust on Christ is a killer.

[Anakin7]

We are Saved By Grace [Charis] Alone Through Faith [Pistis] alone as long as that Salvation Soteriological Formula/Model is understood correctly.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[webbles]

1. Faith in Christ alone, yes.

2. Faith in Christ alone changes your heart and makes you want to serve him, yes.

3. If you have faith in Christ alone, you will still sin. This is what Paul explained in Romans 6 (I think). "The thing I want to do, I don't do, the thing I don't want to do I do...." It's not the doing or not doing that saves, but true faith and trust in Christ.

Now, you added, "and do not repent". A repentant attitude is the mark of a Christian. One who doesn't have such an attitude doesn't understand who he is committed to. In other words, "I die daily..."

You conclude that disobedience can cause you to loose your salvation. I disagree. I would say that it's the lack of faith or trust or connection to Christ that would cause us to lose our salvation. Or to put it another way, loving someone or something more than we love Christ. Sin is but a temporary obstacle, but the lack of focus and trust on Christ is a killer.

You are saying that faith causes a change of heart (which I agree with). It makes you want to obey Christ. But if you don't act on that change, will you still be saved?

If you aren't saved, then it is the failure to obey that caused you to loose your salvation.

I see the two going hand in hand. You need to both believe in Christ and obey Him. If you just believe in Him and do not obey, then you won't be saved. And if you just obey Him and don't believe in Him, then you also won't be saved. One complements the other. Both of them show Christ that you truly love Him.

I think we would both agree with the statement: "If a person has faith, he will obey."

I think what the "difference" between us is how we phrase what happens to a person who disobeys. You say that a disobedient person lacks faith and thus will not be saved. I say a disobedient person either (a) lacks faith and will not be saved because of a lack of both or (b) has a little faith and will not be saved because of the disobedience.

P.S. Of course a person who is disobedient and repents of his mistake would be considered as a person who obeys since Christ washes away the sin.

[Calm]

So why would someone have faith in Christ, know of the commandments that Christ had given (saying if you love me, keep them), and then not do them?

If they want to, but due to disabilities or outwardly imposed restrictions on behaviour, then I understand why intent would be first and foremost.

But if a person could obey a commandment and yet doesn't, what does that say about his actual belief? He may believe in Christ, but it seems to me he believes in sinning more and in such cases, how could his faith in Christ be sufficient?

[TAO]

In my opinion, baptism is listed too many times to be unclear in terms of being required.

Mark 16:16 - He that ^abelieveth and is ^bbaptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ^cdamned.

Luke 7:30 - But the Pharisees and lawyers ^arejected the counsel of God ^bagainst themselves, being not ^cbaptized of him.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter ^asaid unto them, ^bRepent, and be ^cbaptized every one of you in the ^dname of Jesus Christ for the ^eremission of sins, and ye shall receive the ^fgift of the ^gHoly Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21 - The like figure whereunto even ^abaptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 28:18-20 - 18 And ^aJesus came and spake unto them, saying, All ^bpower is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19

[Bernard Gui]

First, you make a leap of logic that doesn't connect.

So, fix it for me.

The bible may or may not define baptism accurately or succinctly, but that doesn't control what all Christians would think or believe. The two aren't connected, sorry.

Are you sure you wanted to say that?

And your quote of Moses doesn't have what you claim, at least not the phrasing you claimed, "the father says we are to be baptized, before the foundation of the world."

Can't help you there.

Bernard

[Hughes]

You are saying that faith causes a change of heart (which I agree with). It makes you want to obey Christ. But if you don't act on that change, will you still be saved?

If you aren't saved, then it is the failure to obey that caused you to loose your salvation.

I see the two going hand in hand. You need to both believe in Christ and obey Him. If you just believe in Him and do not obey, then you won't be saved. And if you just obey Him and don't believe in Him, then you also won't be saved. One complements the other. Both of them show Christ that you truly love Him.

I think we would both agree with the statement: "If a person has faith, he will obey."

I think what the "difference" between us is how we phrase what happens to a person who disobeys. You say that a disobedient person lacks faith and thus will not be saved. I say a disobedient person either (a) lacks faith and will not be saved because of a lack of both or (b) has a little faith and will not be saved because of the disobedience.

P.S. Of course a person who is disobedient and repents of his mistake would be considered as a person who obeys since Christ washes away the sin.

One doesn't lose their salvation because of lack of obedience. Rather, the only reason one would or could lose their faith is because of a lack of connection to Christ.

All of it rests on relationship. Direct relationship with Christ. Thus, those who trust in him, have a relationship with him. Those who "disobey" yet are still in connection to Christ, are immature and have much growing to do (ie sanctification).

Much the same way that our kids might disobey us, but that wouldn't mean they aren't connected to us via a relationship.

It's because of our love for Christ that we do anything righteous. It's because of our connection to him, personally, that we are righteous. We don't trust in our own ability to confess every sin, or a bishops prayers or ordinances or anything else, but Christ alone who forgives us and imputes to us his righteousness.

I don't say a disobedient person lacks faith. I say if a true believer is disobedient, he's immature and needs to grow. If he's not a true believer, he's only doing what's in his heart, and his actions expose who he really is.

Disobedience isn't what causes us to go to Hell, but rejecting connection to God.

As David, who was "a man after God's own heart" disobeyed almost every command known to man. Yet it was the relationship he had with God that kept him.

[Anakin7]

From My LDS JEDI KNIGHT ARCHIVE - http://www.evangelic...g/believing.htm

Salvation Is In Jesus Christ The Person

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[webbles]

One doesn't lose their salvation because of lack of obedience. Rather, the only reason one would or could lose their faith is because of a lack of connection to Christ.

All of it rests on relationship. Direct relationship with Christ. Thus, those who trust in him, have a relationship with him. Those who "disobey" yet are still in connection to Christ, are immature and have much growing to do (ie sanctification).

Much the same way that our kids might disobey us, but that wouldn't mean they aren't connected to us via a relationship.

It's because of our love for Christ that we do anything righteous. It's because of our connection to him, personally, that we are righteous. We don't trust in our own ability to confess every sin, or a bishops prayers or ordinances or anything else, but Christ alone who forgives us and imputes to us his righteousness.

I don't say a disobedient person lacks faith. I say if a true believer is disobedient, he's immature and needs to grow. If he's not a true believer, he's only doing what's in his heart, and his actions expose who he really is.

Disobedience isn't what causes us to go to Hell, but rejecting connection to God.

As David, who was "a man after God's own heart" disobeyed almost every command known to man. Yet it was the relationship he had with God that kept him.

I agree that it is the relationship between God and us. But to have that relationship, one must have faith and obedience.

You made the statement

I say if a true believer is disobedient, he's immature and needs to grow.

What if the true believer never grows? What if he always stays immature? Is he still saved? Or to link it back into the original post, if a true believer has the opportunity to be baptized and says no to the opportunity (thus disobeying) and never repents of it, will he still be saved?

I see that there are four types of people in the world:

1 - One who has faith and obeys (we both agree this person is saved)

2 - One who obeys but doesn't have faith (we both agree this person is not saved)

3 - One who has faith and doesn't obey (this is the crux of the matter)

4 - One who doesn't obey and doesn't have faith (we both agree this person is not saved)

From reading your replies, it seems to you that you truly don't believe that people of category #3 exist. You believe that if you faith, you will obey or you will repentant and correct yourself. I believe that there are people who truly have faith but they don't obey. I do not believe someone of category #3 can be saved because the person is missing that relationship with God. And he isn't missing the relationship because of his faith (as he truly does have faith), he is missing the relationship because of his disobedience.

Maybe the difference is when you say faith, you are including both faith and obedience. If you are combining the two, then we believe the same thing. As James said "faith without works is dead".

P.S. Edited to Add:

David is a none issue in this discussion because he repented. He did the whole sack clock and ashes thing and probably everything under the sun he could think of. When I say a disobedient person, I mean a person who doesn't repent. When I say an obedient person, I mean a person who does repent since none of us a perfectly obedient.

[volgadon]

Don't you find it odd that obedience would play no role in salvation when Jesus is on record equating the children of Abraham with those who do Abraham's works and the children of the Devil with those who do the Devil's works? Jesus also equates love with keeping his commandments.

[USU78]

Don't you find it odd that obedience would play no role in salvation when Jesus is on record equating the children of Abraham with those who do Abraham's works and the children of the Devil with those who do the Devil's works? Jesus also equates love with keeping his commandments.

Saul/Paul trumps the Master, it seems.

[SeattleGhostWriter]

Don't you find it odd that obedience would play no role in salvation when Jesus is on record equating the children of Abraham with those who do Abraham's works and the children of the Devil with those who do the Devil's works? Jesus also equates love with keeping his commandments.

And that is the thing, when it comes to the doctrine of Grace alone, many people actually pit the Apostle Paul against Jesus Christ, and in order to do this, they have to Reinterpret what Paul said to mean what they want him to mean rather than understand what Paul actually meant and taught about the Grace of God and how we are saved by God's grace. In effect, they are putting words in Paul's mouth that were never there and then pit those words against the words of Christ.

[bu11fr0g]

As David, who was "a man after God's own heart" disobeyed almost every command known to man. Yet it was the relationship he had with God that kept him.

I think that it is very important to note that David is damned in Mormon theology. Although he continued to have a great relationship to Christ, David's wickedness (his murdering) cost David his potential reward.

[bu11fr0g]

I agree that it is the relationship between God and us. But to have that relationship, one must have faith and obedience.

You made the statement

What if the true believer never grows? What if he always stays immature? Is he still saved? Or to link it back into the original post, if a true believer has the opportunity to be baptized and says no to the opportunity (thus disobeying) and never repents of it, will he still be saved?

I see that there are four types of people in the world:

1 - One who has faith and obeys (we both agree this person is saved)

2 - One who obeys but doesn't have faith (we both agree this person is not saved)

3 - One who has faith and doesn't obey (this is the crux of the matter)

4 - One who doesn't obey and doesn't have faith (we both agree this person is not saved)

From reading your replies, it seems to you that you truly don't believe that people of category #3 exist. You believe that if you faith, you will obey or you will repentant and correct yourself. I believe that there are people who truly have faith but they don't obey. I do not believe someone of category #3 can be saved because the person is missing that relationship with God. And he isn't missing the relationship because of his faith (as he truly does have faith), he is missing the relationship because of his disobedience.

Maybe the difference is when you say faith, you are including both faith and obedience. If you are combining the two, then we believe the same thing. As James said "faith without works is dead".

I think the real issue is that there is nearly no one in category 1. We all fall short and require an ongoing dependency upon the atonement. I think the real issue is with the nonrepentant who willfully pursues evil.

[webbles]

I think the real issue is that there is nearly no one in category 1. We all fall short and require an ongoing dependency upon the atonement. I think the real issue is with the nonrepentant who willfully pursues evil.

I edited my post to indicate that when I say an obedient person, I'm talking about someone who is repenting. When I say a disobedient person, I'm talking about someone who isn't repenting. Maybe I should have made that more clear from the beginning.

[Nathair/|\]

I edited my post to indicate that when I say an obedient person, I'm talking about someone who is repenting. When I say a disobedient person, I'm talking about someone who isn't repenting. Maybe I should have made that more clear from the beginning.

Exactly:

You're righteous if you repent. No matter how bad you have been, you are righteous. You are the chosen people. And if you don't repent, now matter how good you may have been until now, then you are the lost.--Hugh W. Nibley

[Hughes]

I agree that it is the relationship between God and us. But to have that relationship, one must have faith and obedience.

You made the statement

What if the true believer never grows? What if he always stays immature? Is he still saved? Or to link it back into the original post, if a true believer has the opportunity to be baptized and says no to the opportunity (thus disobeying) and never repents of it, will he still be saved?

I see that there are four types of people in the world:

1 - One who has faith and obeys (we both agree this person is saved)

2 - One who obeys but doesn't have faith (we both agree this person is not saved)

3 - One who has faith and doesn't obey (this is the crux of the matter)

4 - One who doesn't obey and doesn't have faith (we both agree this person is not saved)

From reading your replies, it seems to you that you truly don't believe that people of category #3 exist. You believe that if you faith, you will obey or you will repentant and correct yourself. I believe that there are people who truly have faith but they don't obey. I do not believe someone of category #3 can be saved because the person is missing that relationship with God. And he isn't missing the relationship because of his faith (as he truly does have faith), he is missing the relationship because of his disobedience.

Maybe the difference is when you say faith, you are including both faith and obedience. If you are combining the two, then we believe the same thing. As James said "faith without works is dead".

P.S. Edited to Add:

David is a none issue in this discussion because he repented. He did the whole sack clock and ashes thing and probably everything under the sun he could think of. When I say a disobedient person, I mean a person who doesn't repent. When I say an obedient person, I mean a person who does repent since none of us a perfectly obedient.

You stated that, to have that relationship one must have faith and obedience. Yet, you don't actually believe this when it comes to your kids (assuming you have kids). You have a relationship with your kids, regardless of whether or not they obey you or not. Especially, when they are immature and unable to follow your "commands".

Relationship is established first, as with your kids. Then after maturity takes place (which could be a different amount of time for different people), then it's safe to assume that there should be actions or obedience that follows that relationship of love.

you're #3 - "One who has faith and doesn't obey (this is the crux of the matter)"

You say they can't be saved, and think that I don't think these folks really exist.

I say, they do exist, and do have a relationship with God, and if that's the case then their obedience will come eventually. If they don't really believe and don't really have a relationship with God, then no, they aren't saved and won't have the fruit of obedience.

Now, where we disagree (it seems to me) is with my use of "eventually" it seems to me that mormonism requires one to have "obedience" right away to be saved? Yes or no? Why?

If a person decides that he doesn't want to be baptized (for some reason, could be his fear of water or fear of getting in front of people, I don't know), would he still be saved? I say of course he would be. Because God is greater than our disobedience and our fears. And Christ's blood covers all our sins, not just the ones where we remembered to repent of.

[Hughes]

volgadon, on 10 February 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

Don't you find it odd that obedience would play no role in salvation when Jesus is on record equating the children of Abraham with those who do Abraham's works and the children of the Devil with those who do the Devil's works? Jesus also equates love with keeping his commandments.

Saul/Paul trumps the Master, it seems.

Jesus isn't on record as saying our salvation is dependent on our ability to obey commands. Rather, salvation rests on belief.

John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God

[webbles]

You stated that, to have that relationship one must have faith and obedience. Yet, you don't actually believe this when it comes to your kids (assuming you have kids). You have a relationship with your kids, regardless of whether or not they obey you or not. Especially, when they are immature and unable to follow your "commands".

Relationship is established first, as with your kids. Then after maturity takes place (which could be a different amount of time for different people), then it's safe to assume that there should be actions or obedience that follows that relationship of love.

you're #3 - "One who has faith and doesn't obey (this is the crux of the matter)"

You say they can't be saved, and think that I don't think these folks really exist.

I say, they do exist, and do have a relationship with God, and if that's the case then their obedience will come eventually. If they don't really believe and don't really have a relationship with God, then no, they aren't saved and won't have the fruit of obedience.

Now, where we disagree (it seems to me) is with my use of "eventually" it seems to me that mormonism requires one to have "obedience" right away to be saved? Yes or no? Why?

If a person decides that he doesn't want to be baptized (for some reason, could be his fear of water or fear of getting in front of people, I don't know), would he still be saved? I say of course he would be. Because God is greater than our disobedience and our fears. And Christ's blood covers all our sins, not just the ones where we remembered to repent of.

Ah, I think our miscommunication is my use of the words obedient and disobedient. I explained this a few posts after my last one but maybe you didn't see it. When I say obedient, I'm talking about someone who is either (a) always obedient (can't happen unless you are Christ), (b) attempting to be obedient and repents as necessary, or ( c ) eventually becomes obedient. A disobedient person is one who NEVER becomes obedient and never repents as well.

So, my category #3 person is one who truly has faith and is always disobedient. Not someone who will eventually become obedient.

Based on your comment, you believe that if a person has faith, he will always eventually become obedient. You don't believe that a person with faith can stay disobedient. So, it seems that faith and obedience are both required. You just put them in a linear order: first, you need faith, then you need obedience. That's pretty similar to what LDS believe. The 4th Article of Faith states:

http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.4?lang=eng#4

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for gift of the Holy Ghost.

So, first you need faith, then you need obedience (the other three items). After that, it is enduring to the end which is continuing to strengthen your faith and stay obedient, repenting as often as needed (which can be quite often for some ). (On a slightly different topic, can the order be switched: obedience then faith. I'm leaning towards no but I think there are a few rare cases where it could be yes.)

As for your question:

Now, where we disagree (it seems to me) is with my use of "eventually" it seems to me that mormonism requires one to have "obedience" right away to be saved? Yes or no? Why?

I don't think that is where we disagree. As I mentioned, it looks more like miscommunication on what an obedient person is and what a disobedient person is. You do not have to have obedience right away to be saved. In fact, all of us will fall far short of that. We all need to repent. We all need to become more obedient over time, but perfection is not required immediately.

And your analogy with my children (I have 3 little ones) doesn't make any sense to me. First, I don't know what the analogy of "salvation" is (they get access to my house?) Second, my children do not need to have faith in me or to obey me for me to be their father and to have a relationship with them. I will always be their father and I will always love them. But if one of them became a child rapist or a mass murderer, I will not allow that child any where near my house unless that child repents and changes their way.

Now, to make this post even longer, I want to discuss why I do not like the phrase "By faith alone you are saved". Thinking about it, I can say that I do agree with that statement. Because I believe true faith includes obedience. So, if the word "faith" in that statement is talking about true faith (the one that prompts you to be obedient), then I agree with the statement. So why do I not like the phrase?

Because it is deceitful. Whenever I hear that phrase, what is the first thing that comes to my mind?

"I just need faith, I don't need to obey. I don't need to change my life. I don't need to follow the commandments."

And I've met people that also think the same thing. And guess what, these people will hear that phrase, convince themselves that they have faith, and never change their sinful ways. They will then die thinking that they are saved and are not. If you tell them that they need true faith, they will answer that they have true faith. If you attempt to explain that true faith makes them change their life, they'll counter and say that faith is the only thing necessary, not obedience.

That phrase is condemning people instead of saving people. And that is why I do not like that phrase.

And honestly, what is incorrect about stating "Faith and obedience will save you"? As you, Hughes, have stated, if you have faith, your "obedience will come eventually". So why try and hide the fact that obedience is part of the equation? Is it because it is too hard to sell?

[webbles]

I think that it is very important to note that David is damned in Mormon theology. Although he continued to have a great relationship to Christ, David's wickedness (his murdering) cost David his potential reward.

That is interesting. I'm with David then.

If you want to discuss this particular topic (David's salvation) farther, I think you should create a new topic. But you do need to keep in mind the verse Matthew 12:31-32

31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

In LDS theology, David committed the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and thus can never be forgiven of it. That is why he is damned. Not because of any lack of faith or because of any of his other sins (which he repented of).

[USU78]

Jesus isn't on record as saying our salvation is dependent on our ability to obey commands.

Except He did:

Matt 19:17 If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

[Hughes]

Ah, I think our miscommunication is my use of the words obedient and disobedient. I explained this a few posts after my last one but maybe you didn't see it. When I say obedient, I'm talking about someone who is either (a) always obedient (can't happen unless you are Christ), (b) attempting to be obedient and repents as necessary, or ( c ) eventually becomes obedient. A disobedient person is one who NEVER becomes obedient and never repents as well.

So, my category #3 person is one who truly has faith and is always disobedient. Not someone who will eventually become obedient.

Based on your comment, you believe that if a person has faith, he will always eventually become obedient. You don't believe that a person with faith can stay disobedient. So, it seems that faith and obedience are both required. You just put them in a linear order: first, you need faith, then you need obedience. That's pretty similar to what LDS believe. The 4th Article of Faith states:

http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.4?lang=eng#4

So, first you need faith, then you need obedience (the other three items). After that, it is enduring to the end which is continuing to strengthen your faith and stay obedient, repenting as often as needed (which can be quite often for some ). (On a slightly different topic, can the order be switched: obedience then faith. I'm leaning towards no but I think there are a few rare cases where it could be yes.)

As for your question:

I don't think that is where we disagree. As I mentioned, it looks more like miscommunication on what an obedient person is and what a disobedient person is. You do not have to have obedience right away to be saved. In fact, all of us will fall far short of that. We all need to repent. We all need to become more obedient over time, but perfection is not required immediately.

And your analogy with my children (I have 3 little ones) doesn't make any sense to me. First, I don't know what the analogy of "salvation" is (they get access to my house?) Second, my children do not need to have faith in me or to obey me for me to be their father and to have a relationship with them. I will always be their father and I will always love them. But if one of them became a child rapist or a mass murderer, I will not allow that child any where near my house unless that child repents and changes their way.

Now, to make this post even longer, I want to discuss why I do not like the phrase "By faith alone you are saved". Thinking about it, I can say that I do agree with that statement. Because I believe true faith includes obedience. So, if the word "faith" in that statement is talking about true faith (the one that prompts you to be obedient), then I agree with the statement. So why do I not like the phrase?

Because it is deceitful. Whenever I hear that phrase, what is the first thing that comes to my mind?

"I just need faith, I don't need to obey. I don't need to change my life. I don't need to follow the commandments."

And I've met people that also think the same thing. And guess what, these people will hear that phrase, convince themselves that they have faith, and never change their sinful ways. They will then die thinking that they are saved and are not. If you tell them that they need true faith, they will answer that they have true faith. If you attempt to explain that true faith makes them change their life, they'll counter and say that faith is the only thing necessary, not obedience.

That phrase is condemning people instead of saving people. And that is why I do not like that phrase.

And honestly, what is incorrect about stating "Faith and obedience will save you"? As you, Hughes, have stated, if you have faith, your "obedience will come eventually". So why try and hide the fact that obedience is part of the equation? Is it because it is too hard to sell?

Concerning your obedient/disobedient list. Only "(b) attempting to be obedient and repents as necessary" is applicable to anyone and describes every believer.

So, no, I don't think a person can truly have faith and is always disobedient.

It appears to me that the 4th article of Faith (of the LDS) requires those 5 things for a person to be saved? (question mark because I don't know)

I don't think they are similar as I see obedience as a fruit out of true faith. No fruit, indicates no true faith. But, it's not the fruit that saves, it's the faith or trust in Christ alone that saves.

The analogy of your children has to do with relationship and it's correlation to obedience. It's a relationship with God/Christ that saves, not obedience. It's the relationship with your kids that gives them access to you and all you offer as the parent, not their obedience. And to push the analogy further, their obedience to you is based on the relationship you have with them. If they feel grateful and loved, obedience will be a natural "fruit" of the relationship that is formed. If on the other hand, they feel hurt and abused, they might just act out and be disobedient for various reasons. The obedience is a fruit or a result of the type of relationship, than it is anything else.

Why is it incorrect to say, "Faith and obedience will save you?" because it's not true. It's not faith and obedience. It's just faith.

Here's an interesting side note. The emphasis on "obedience" has a negative effect on people. It causes comparisons among people. Comparisons are powerful things. And never good.

Let's take an example. John get saved, and was raised as a good boy, but not a believer. But, his upbringing was pretty much as "religious" as one could be, without being so. John was an atheist until I was 17. And another guy (Frank) was beaten most all of his childhood, his dad was an angry drunk and did unspeakable things to him. Frank ran away and got into more trouble, and continued to deal with his pain (both emotional and physical) by lashing out at people. Frank went to jail and but got saved in the process. He still has many emotional and psychological issues, but he's saved, just as John is.

Now, by comparison, Frank still smokes and swears on occasion, and still has a lot of anger, none of which John has. It appears that John is much more obedient than Frank is, right? Why is that? Because we're comparing John with Frank. As I said, comparisons are powerful things. And not at all fair. Why isn't it fair to compare these two? Well, it's very simple. Both have a different set of difficulties to deal with. For John it's very easy to stay consistent and attend church every week, and tithe and pray, etc.. For Frank, it's all very difficult. He struggles to even go to church, let alone tithe.

Why is it incorrect to say, "Faith and obedience will save you?" Because the person observing, (ie God) sees all, and knows who is obedient and who isn't. God looks at the Heart. What happens when the church starts to preach the 4th article of Faith? It uses it to condemn people. It uses it as a big hammer to come down on those who are not living up to *their* expectations. Remember, Christ said, that he didn't come into the world to condemn the world? Remember, when Jesus pointed out that the Widow put in more in the offering plate than anyone else?

It's wrong to focus on the external, which is what saying obedience will save you, does. God looks at the heart, and wants a relationship. Because through that loving relationship, he can change the person from the inside out. We can't do it ourselves, as the Jews have proven to us with the law.

[LDSGuy]

So, because scriptures about faith and grace don't mention baptism, it must not be needed. You do know that the letters from Paul about faith and grace were written to Christian churches consisting of people who had already been baptized. Belief in ancient times also meant more than mere acceptance of Jesus, but it involved action on the part of the believer.

[Hughes]

Hughes, on 12 February 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

Jesus isn't on record as saying our salvation is dependent on our ability to obey commands.

Except He did:

Quote

Matt 19:17 If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

Let's look at that passage:

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked,