The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

[Hughes]

so we can ignore commandments of God if they command us to do something symbolic? We only have to do those physical acts that actually affect us in a physical way?

Is that what I said?

I never said we ignore commands of God, did I?

Fact is that we aren't saved by following commands, we're saved by faith. Our belief, our trust in Christ's work on our behalf.

[Hughes]

Why was Jesus baptized?

Matt. 3:15 "Jesus replied,

[SeattleGhostWriter]

"Salvation can only come by baptism".

This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and grace.

Baptism is not a requirement!

One attains eternal life (salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

Note no mention of baptism.

Jesus made it clear I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

Again no mention of baptism, apparently to o2bewise, Jesus must have misspoken here.

I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus our Lord that whosoever speaks against Him by stating baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus.

one love

I love this. A perfect example of how modern Evangelical Christians pick and choose which Biblical passages are authoritative and which ones are not authoritative.

So, according to Evangelists argument here: Peter lied and led many people to Hell on the day of Pentecost:

Acts 2: 37-41

Now when they heard this [Peter's Sermon of who Jesus Christ is, the death of Jesus Christ via crucifixion, and the judgment impending upon First Century Jews], they were pricked in their heart, AND SAID UNTO PETER AND TO THE REST OF THE APOSTLES, MEN AND BRETHREN, WHAT SHALL WE DO?

Then Peter said unto them....[Believe on Jesus Christ him crucified right????? WRONG]

1) REPENT

2) BE BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS

3) AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST

Why would Peter say that the people needed to Repent first, then be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins?

Oh wait a minute, maybe because of Jesus Christ's commandment to the 12 Apostles and 70 Apostles:

Matthew 28:18-20

And Jesus came and spake unto them [the eleven disciples], saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. GO YE THEREFORE,

1)_ TEACH ALL NATIONS

2) BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST

3) TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU

The Eleven (since Judas had betrayed Christ and went out and hung himself) Disciples were commanded and given power to teach, baptize, and instruct in the ways of obedience to the commands of the Lord. Did Christ lie here? According to you, He is a heretic for teaching and commanding the disciples.

Mark 16:15-16 (Although earlier manuscripts for the Gospel of Mark end at vs. 9 and later manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark continue on from verse 10-20, it still relates the same thing as the other Gospel commandments to preach, teach, and baptize):

And he [being Christ] said unto them, GO YE INTO ALL THE WORLD, AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE. HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED; BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE DAMNED

Wait a minute, Jesus Christ is recorded in the later manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark to have said to the Eleven disciples that those who believe AND ARE BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED. Wow, another heresy in the Bible right??

Let us see how many times the Early Jewish Christians practiced Baptism for the Remission of sins:

Acts 8:12-13

But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were BAPTIZED, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and WHEN HE WAS BAPTIZED, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Now, one also remembers that the Apostles came down to those in Samaria who were baptized and by the laying on of hands, they were given the gift of the Holy Ghost, to which Simon wanted to purchase this power from Peter. Peter curses, condemns, and excommunicates Simon for his desire to purchase the Priesthood Authority to administer the laying on of Hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.. Does your church believe that people should be given the gift of the Holy Ghost by those in authority and by the Priesthood power given from Christ to the Apostles?

Acts 9 - Paul's conversion and baptism - his baptism recorded in verse 18.

The Conversion of the first Gentile and Uncircumcised persons in Acts 10, the most important part is what Peter says at the end of Acts 10:

CAN ANY MAN FORBID WATER, THAT THESE SHOULD NOT BE BAPTIZED, WHICH HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE?

Peter then says:

And he COMMANDED THEM TO BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Wow, Peter, the Apostle of Jesus Christ sure preached and commanded a damning heresy to Cornelius and the household of Cornelius.

And, now let us turn to the Apostle Paul and what he has to say about the symbolism behind Baptism by immersion:

1) KNOW YE NOT, THAT SO MANY OF US AS WERE BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST WERE BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH?

2) THEREFORE WE ARE BURIED WITH HIM [CHRIST] BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH

3) LIKE AS CHRIST WAS RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, EVEN SO WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE

Wow, We are first baptized into the death of Jesus Christ, we then are buried with Christ, only to be raised up in Christ so that we can walk in newness of life.

But, Paul is not finished here:

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more: Death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What is the law of Grace believers are under? They are under the law of grace that Christ saves and redeems them and that they have taken the name of Christ upon themselves, to keep his commandments, and to have his spirit with them alway. THAT IS SCRIPTURE NOT HERESY.

However, let us not stop there because you want to devilishly twist scripture passages and pit the Bible against the Bible and pit Paul against Christ when Holy Writ is distinctively clear on how a person is saved:

According to The Life of Jesus Christ in Its Historical Connexion and Historical Development by Augustus Neander:

but when he was about to withdraw his personal presence from his disciples, it became necessary to substitute a symbol in its place 127for his sufferings and resurrection, the fundamental facts from which the new creation, through the Holy Spirit, was to spring, had necessarily to take place before the institution of Christian baptism proper; for that baptism implies an appropriation of the fruit of his sufferings, a fellowship in his resurrection, and a participation of that life, in communion with Him, which is above the world and death. The full import of baptism could not be realized until the process which began with Christ

[ed2276]

Do you think or interpretat the bible as every time the word baptism or baptized is mention it mean directly a water baptism or a water ritual??

You must keep the Word of God in contexts!

Have you heard of a spiritual baptism?

A blood bapism in Christ Jesus ??

one love

1Pe 3:19 By which also he [the Lord] went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure[salvation by water] whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is water baptism, my friend. If you consider the whole of the NT teaching on baptism you will see clearly that there are two efficacious baptisms leading to Eternal Life.

The first is water baptism, which is for the remission of sins (Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins).

John's baptism (water baptism) was for a remission of sins. Those who reject water baptism reject the counsel of God to their own hurt.

Luk 7:29 And all the people that heard [him], and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. [John]

Peter said:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We know from the other scriptures quoted above that John's baptism was water baptism and was baptism for the remission of sins. Thus, when Peter instructs those who would be saved to "be baptized...for the remission of sins", it is without doubt that Peter was speaking of water baptism.

Peter gave this instruction AFTER the Lord's crucifixion and resurrection, so at this time John's baptism was still efficacious and required.

Water baptism is efficacious:

1. Through water baptism we are symbolically baptized into Christ's death.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

2. Water baptism is symbolic of being buried. Baptism by the Spirit cannot satisfy this requirement, as when one receives the Holy Ghost one is not buried. Only by immersion in water is one symbolically buried. The person coming forth out of the water symbolically is resurrected from the dead unto a newness of life.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If we are immersed and symbolically buried, as was Christ, when we arise out of the water we come forth in the likeness of Christ's resurrection.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

This burial/ resurrection/ newness of life symbolism is not fulfilled by the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the baptism of fire. Only water baptism answers to this symbolism. This symbolism has real effect, though. We come forth a new creature...dead to sin, the old man being put to death

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This comports with the description of John's baptism as being one for a remission of sins. As Peter said, this is a baptism which results in a clean conscience. Why? Because one's sins are washed away--remitted--and one comes forth, as Paul says, a new creature.

Those who would suggest that, yes, we should be baptized as an outward expression of faith are equally as misguided as those who say spiritual baptism or blood baptism, as you call it, are enough. Paul tells us in Romans, as quoted above, that there are real effects beyond mere expression of faith in water baptism; these have to do with participating in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. This gives new meaning to Christ's commandment, "Come, follow me."

The Lord said that in order for a man to be saved he must be born again. Not born just of the Spirit, but born of water, as well.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The second, being born of the Spirit, is the baptism of fire, or the Holy Ghost, which is a sanctifying baptism.

[Calm]

Is that what I said?

I never said we ignore commands of God, did I?

Fact is that we aren't saved by following commands, we're saved by faith. Our belief, our trust in Christ's work on our behalf.

Then the fact that baptism is symbolic is irrelevant to whether or not we should do it, in your opinion? Why did you bring up the fact of its symbolic nature then?

[volgadon]

Others would say that water here means water baptism. But this latter interpretation seems quite unlikely, since Christian baptism had not been instituted yet and would have been meaningless to Nicodemus.

Water baptisms were actually an integral part of the Judaisms of the day.

"Until the discoveries of modern archaeology, we knew about ancient Jewish ritual immersion baths only from literary texts. Now, however, archaeology has provided us with numerous examples of Jewish ritual immersion baths, called miqva

[volgadon]

The Mishnah, the rabbinic guide to matters of halakha (legal regulations and requirement to do with the Law of Moses), contains a tractate describing the high priest's preparations for the Day of Atonement, when he would offer up a sin-offering on behalf of all Israel.

It closes with a reminder, attributed to r. Akiva, of who it is who actually makes Israel clean.

How fortunate you are, O Israel! Before whom are you made clean? Who is it that makes you clean? Your Father that is in heaven! As it is said (Ezek 36:25) "And I will pour clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean"; it says also (Jer 17:13), "the mikveh of Israel is the Lord"- even as a mikveh makes clean those who are unclean, so the Holy One, blessed be He, makes Israel clean.

Mishnah, t. Yoma, 8:7.

The word in bold is usually translated in English as hope, but it was seen as an allusion to the practice of ritual bathing, which was done in what was termed a mikveh. The association is further strengthened by the rest of the verse, which calls the Lord the fountain of living waters. Living water was the essential component in the mikveh, without it one could not become clean.

I'm not too sure that the wordplay isn't Jeremiah's, he certainly picked an unusual form of the word hope.

Whilst actions were paramount in Judaism, the sages recognised that it was God who made them efficacious. This, evangelist, is what your anitnomistic mindset misses in approaching the world of the Bible.

[Calm]

We may therefore reasonably conclude that John

[Calm]

The word in bold is usually translated in English as hope...

I'm not too sure that the wordplay isn't Jeremiah's, he certainly picked an unusual form of the word hope.

So "mikveh" can be translated as "hope"? The translators aren't just making an assumption about the intent of what the author was trying to convey. If so, the wordplay is quite nice whoever came up with it.

[Calm]

"the mikveh of Israel is the Lord"

Is a mikveh then understood to be an encounter with God on some level?

If so, it certainly puts a different perspective on the monthly purification rites that women go through than is usually understood among nonJews in my experience (basically see it as portraying the 'natural' woman as inferior needing to be purified in order to be allowed to associate with her husband kind of thing)

[bluebell]

Matt. 3:15 "Jesus replied,

[volgadon]

So "mikveh" can be translated as "hope"? The translators aren't just making an assumption about the intent of what the author was trying to convey. If so, the wordplay is quite nice whoever came up with it.

Well, there are a pair of homonyms. One for anticipation, the other for gathering together. Hope is the former, mikveh the latter. The Bible of course is full of wordplay.

[volgadon]

Is a mikveh then understood to be an encounter with God on some level?

If so, it certainly puts a different perspective on the monthly purification rites that women go through than is usually understood among nonJews in my experience (basically see it as portraying the 'natural' woman as inferior needing to be purified in order to be allowed to associate with her husband kind of thing)

Yes, you could put it that way. When Christ speaks of living water he draws upon purification imagery. Living water, IE flowing water or rain water, was required for a mikveh to be valid.

[USU78]

Me no understand. Baptists no baptize no more?

[Hughes]

Then the fact that baptism is symbolic is irrelevant to whether or not we should do it, in your opinion? Why did you bring up the fact of its symbolic nature then?

Because it's not the *doing* it that saves us, but the spiritual aspect of the symbolic representation that saves us. In essence, the act of the spirit of dying to sin and living to Christ.

[Hughes]

So Jesus could not NOT be baptized, without sinning?

As the scripture said, he did it to fulfill all righteousness. Christ fulfilled all the law, thus bringing in the new covenant with his blood. He could only do this if he was completely righteous.

[Deborah]

Because it's not the *doing* it that saves us, but the spiritual aspect of the symbolic representation that saves us. In essence, the act of the spirit of dying to sin and living to Christ.

But the act of baptism is symbolic in and of itself. I don't understand what it means that the "spiritual aspect of the symbolic representation" saves us. The Lord was actually baptized in the water. He didn't say you symbolically do this. You do it to be symbolically washed clean and make covenants to follow him.

I think when these things are dismissed one forgets how important covenants between man and God are. Such Covenants are always made ritually and as symbols of obedience or agreement.

[Scott Gordon]

If you want to see how Christ's words were implemented by his followers, you can look at the book of Acts and see what they did after he was resurrected.

What happened when someone accepted Christ?

Verse Result

Acts 2: 37-38, 41 Baptism--what shall we do?

Acts 8:12 Baptism--People of Samaria

Acts 8:13 Baptism--Simon of Samaria

Acts 8: 36-38 Baptism--Eunuch of Ethiopia

Acts 9:18 Baptism--Saul/Paul

Acts 10:47-48 Baptism--Cornelius baptism commanded

Acts 16:14-15 Baptism--Lydia

Acts 18:8 Baptism--Corinthians

Acts 16:30-33 Baptism--Jailer

Acts 19:5 Baptism--Re-baptism

Acts 22:16 Baptism--Paul teaching

It looks pretty clear to me. Now you can also go through and find all of the instances where they accepted Christ, and were told they don't need to be baptized. I wasn't able to find any of those sscriptures, but perhaps you can.

[Bill Hamblin]

No one should discuss the issue without having read this book:

E. Ferguson, Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology, and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries (2009)

[Hughes]

But the act of baptism is symbolic in and of itself. I don't understand what it means that the "spiritual aspect of the symbolic representation" saves us. The Lord was actually baptized in the water. He didn't say you symbolically do this. You do it to be symbolically washed clean and make covenants to follow him.

I think when these things are dismissed one forgets how important covenants between man and God are. Such Covenants are always made ritually and as symbols of obedience or agreement.

It's the actual event that gives the symbol meaning.

The symbol has no meaning without a true death and resurrection of our spirits.

It's not the symbolic act of getting wet that saves us, but what the symbol is representing that saves us.

Further, not getting wet doesn't prevent the actual event in our spirits from taking place.

[Calm]

Further, not getting wet doesn't prevent the actual event in our spirits from taking place.

The marriage ceremony is the symbolic act of two souls joining together. The ceremony itself is not what makes a marriage work, not what brings souls together but rather just an outward symbolic demonstration of what is happening internally.

Therefore one doesn't really need to get married if the actual event that marriage symbolizes has taken place spiritually between two people....

according to your logic. Do you agree?

[bluebell]

As the scripture said, he did it to fulfill all righteousness. Christ fulfilled all the law, thus bringing in the new covenant with his blood. He could only do this if he was completely righteous.

Christ fulfilled the law of baptism? Where do the scriptures teach that, it would be interesting to study that.

[Pahoran]

As the scripture said, he did it to fulfill all righteousness. Christ fulfilled all the law, thus bringing in the new covenant with his blood. He could only do this if he was completely righteous.

So I take it that your view is that Christ fulfilled all the law so that we wouldn't have to obey any of it. Is this what your "blind faith" tells you?

Does this explain why so many loudly self-proclaimed "Christians" do not make the slightest observable effort to live righteous lives?

And, in turn, why they apparently have an obsessive need to define themselves by their opposition to those who do?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hughes]

The marriage ceremony is the symbolic act of two souls joining together. The ceremony itself is not what makes a marriage work, not what brings souls together but rather just an outward symbolic demonstration of what is happening internally.

Therefore one doesn't really need to get married if the actual event that marriage symbolizes has taken place spiritually between two people....

according to your logic. Do you agree?

Close. I didn't say that Baptism wasn't useful as a means of proclaiming one's commitment to Christ.

[Hughes]

Christ fulfilled the law of baptism? Where do the scriptures teach that, it would be interesting to study that.

I didn't say there was a "law of baptism."

So I take it that your view is that Christ fulfilled all the law so that we wouldn't have to obey any of it. Is this what your "blind faith" tells you?

Does this explain why so many loudly self-proclaimed "Christians" do not make the slightest observable effort to live righteous lives?

And, in turn, why they apparently have an obsessive need to define themselves by their opposition to those who do?

Regards,

Pahoran

Actually, it's faith in Christ that tells me that the Just shall live by faith, and following rules or works of the law don't bring about salvation, or a righteous life.

For, if living by rules or a righteous life was enough to save us, we wouldn't need Christ.