Vance Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Sorry but a proper reading of this passage doesn't say that the symbolic act saves us. Rather, the spiritual act of baptism into Christ. Nah, that isn't what is says at all. The context is that water saved the eight people on Noah's ark. 1 Pet 3:19 By which also he (Christ) went and preached unto the spirits in prison (hades/hell); 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Absolutely NOTHING in there about "the spiritual act". Baptism by water is a physical act.Your "proper reading" is garbage. Now I know why I ignore you most of the time.
volgadon Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 "I never knew you..." Indicating that it was the relationship (knowing) that was the key. And relationships weren't separate from acts. If you read why he didn't know them it is because they did not do the necesary acts in a kinship relationship.
Hughes Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Nah, that isn't what is says at all. The context is that water saved the eight people on Noah's ark. 1 Pet 3:19 By which also he (Christ) went and preached unto the spirits in prison (hades/hell); 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Absolutely NOTHING in there about "the spiritual act". Baptism by water is a physical act.Your "proper reading" is garbage. Now I know why I ignore you most of the time.Thanks Vance for ignoring me. If you actually believe that dipping in water saves you, then that's ok. I don't. And relationships weren't separate from acts. If you read why he didn't know them it is because they did not do the necesary acts in a kinship relationship.If you read what the passages says, it says those people claimed to do the works in Jesus name. The quoted section is about false teachers. It's talks about doing the "will" of him who sent Jesus. What was the greatest commandment? You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind. Right? Notice that doing the will of him who sent Jesus is to Love. It's all about love. And love is the basis for what? A relationship. Now, also notice. The quoted passage contains an interesting example. Those who *claimed* to do his will were *doing* prophesy in his name and in his name drove out demons and in his name performed many miracles, correct? So, we have a group of people who *do* things in the name of Jesus, but don't *know* him. Now isn't that interesting? I wonder how that could happen? Do you happen to have any idea how a group of people could do miracles and prophesy in the name of Jesus yet not have a relationship with him? I mean could a group of people go around emphasizing the great works they do in the name of Jesus? And down play and criticize those who emphasize how relationship with God is the most important aspect of our Christian life? Could a group like that possibly exist? I mean the greatest commandment is clear, how could anyone miss that? I don't know, but Jesus said that a group like that exists.
volgadon Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 What was the greatest commandment? You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind. Right? Are you trying to prove my point? Take a look at how that verse was understood anciently.
volgadon Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 If you read what the passages says, it says those people claimed to do the works in Jesus name. The quoted section is about false teachers. It's talks about doing the "will" of him who sent Jesus. And obviously by not doing "the will" , Christ doesn't "know" you. I fail to see how that strengthens your case any.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 And obviously by not doing "the will" , Christ doesn't "know" you. I fail to see how that strengthens your case any.I don't get it at all. It is ok to be wrong in a mistaken theology. Once in a while I thought I had something figured out just to realise I was wrong on a certine point.
Hughes Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 And obviously by not doing "the will" , Christ doesn't "know" you. I fail to see how that strengthens your case any.The will of him who sent Christ is to love God with all your heart. How do you not see that as establishing a relationship?
Deborah Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 The will of him who sent Christ is to love God with all your heart. How do you not see that as establishing a relationship?If I love my children but never show them by my actions I do they will never know I love them or believe me when I tell them.
ELF1024 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 The will of him who sent Christ is to love God with all your heart. How do you not see that as establishing a relationship?So if baptism isn't important, why was Christ baptised to fuifill all righteousness?Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, aSuffer it to be so now: for thus it bbecometh us to cfulfil all drighteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was abaptized, went up bstraightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the cSpirit of God descending like a ddove, and lighting upon him:
Hughes Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 If I love my children but never show them by my actions I do they will never know I love them or believe me when I tell them.Note, I haven't said that actions don't follow. My point has been that the actions don't save or establish a relationship. Our love for our kids or their love for us motivates us to do things.
Hughes Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 So if baptism isn't important, why was Christ baptised to fuifill all righteousness?I haven't said that it's not important. What I've said is that it doesn't save or remit sins. Christ's submission to baptism was the beginning of his earthly ministry.
Vance Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Well, the BIBLE tells us.Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Humm, believe Hughes or the Bible.Decisions, decisions. Edited to add,Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Deborah Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 My point has been that the actions don't save or establish a relationship. Our love for our kids or their love for us motivates us to do things.Actually it is the actions that save or establish a relationship. Some people love their kids but aren't good parents and their kids don't believe they love them.
USU78 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 I haven't said that it's not important. What I've said is that it doesn't save or remit sins. Christ's submission to baptism was the beginning of his earthly ministry.If it's important, why make the argument that it's unnecessary?Or aren't you making that argument?The more I hear from Evie types on this subject, the less I understand.
Vance Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Actually it is the actions that save or establish a relationship. Some people love their kids but aren't good parents and their kids don't believe they love them.Relationship with God.John 14:15
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 "Salvation can only come by baptism".This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and grace. Baptism is not a requirement!One attains eternal life (salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15). Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).Note no mention of baptism.Jesus made it clear I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).Again no mention of baptism, apparently to o2bewise, Jesus must have misspoken here.I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus our Lord that whosoever speaks against Him by stating baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus.one loveWhy would Christ have to keep repeating himself throughout the Bible? He taught the importance of Baptism and was even Baptized himself to fulfill all righteousness. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17)You endanger your soul if you refuse to do the required works of being born of water and spirit. Faith alone is not enough, we are judged by out works (See Revelations 20:12-13) not our faith. "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 I haven't said that it's not important. What I've said is that it doesn't save or remit sins. Christ's submission to baptism was the beginning of his earthly ministry.So the Bible lies then when it proclaims multiple times that Christ was baptized to fulfill all righteousness?Instead he just needed a quick dip in the Jordan before he went off into the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights?
volgadon Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 The will of him who sent Christ is to love God with all your heart. How do you not see that as establishing a relationship?You missed the point. To love was to do. See the example of R. Akiva. See Maimonides' Mishneh Torah under the chapter The Book of Love. See Christ's words "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Anakin7 Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT ARCHIVE : http://www.angelfire.com/az2/biblesonnyb/Tracts/MustIbebaptized.htm In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT
GingerRed Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 ....The more I hear from Evie types on this subject, the less I understand.I agree! The impression I get is...Number one....they WANT to have a religion that doens't require them to do anything so they have the easy way out to be 'saved'and two...they like to pick and choose what vesus in the Bible they want to follow/beleive in and forget the rest.It sounds more and more like Lucifer's plan in the Pre-exsistence....the philosophies of man mingled with scripture...JMHORed
LDSGuy Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 For salvation, all that is required is reconciling to God through Christ, which is done through a faith commitment [covenant] with him. It isn't based on our "works" or doing things, but putting our trust in his work. I've never said we shouldn't be baptized. The point is that the symbolic act doesn't save us. Christ alone does that. The disagreement is with article of faith, where it lists "third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins"Note, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven." But according to your articles of faith that's isn't possible, since he wasn't baptized? My point has been and continues to be that our sins are forgiven based on our relationship to Christ, not by any symbolic act (not that I'm saying symbolic acts have no value, I'm not saying that). No one is disputing about whether or not Baptism is symbolic. Of course it is. One is baptized because they have established a relationship with Jesus Christ. That relationship is of one who needs forgiveness and one who provides forgiveness. Christ was able to forgive sins without baptism. He can do that before baptism and after baptism. The ordinance of baptism is not for forgivess but remission of sin. It is the way in which God has given us to start anew. We are born into this world by blood, water, and spirit. We are reborn with the Blood of Jesus Christ, the Waters of Baptism, and the reception of the Holy Spirit. This is one of the reasons that it is called rebirth, because it compare the physical elements with the spiritual. To enter the kingdom of God, one must be born again; and we are to be reborn by the Blood of Christ, the Waters of Baptism, and the reception of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise it would not be a rebirth.I don't disagree. Our relationship with the Lord brings about actions. But, the point of this thread was the heretical teaching that one needs to be baptized to be saved.[/quotJohn 15. Christ talks about how we abide in his love, and it is by keeping his commandments. One of his commandments is to be baptized. Christ was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, or in other words, to keep all the commandments of God. If it were important enough to Christ for him to seek out John the Baptist, how much more important should it be to us? The word "counsel" in that verse also means purpose, will and advice.
LDSGuy Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 I haven't said that it's not important. What I've said is that it doesn't save or remit sins. Christ's submission to baptism was the beginning of his earthly ministry.So baptism does not remit sin... mmmm? So when it says that we are baptized for the remission of sin, that doesn't mean anything? Is there a scripture in the new testament that says that baptism in not necessary for salvation? I can find a lot of scriptures in favor of baptism, but I can't find any against it.... How odd is that?
GingerRed Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Well.....evangelist, who stared this topic, has been banned and Hughes seems to have disppeared....
Hughes Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 For salvation, all that is required is reconciling to God through Christ, which is done through a faith commitment [covenant] with him. It isn't based on our "works" or doing things, but putting our trust in his work. I've never said we shouldn't be baptized. The point is that the symbolic act doesn't save us. Christ alone does that. The disagreement is with article of faith, where it lists "third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins"Note, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven." But according to your articles of faith that's isn't possible, since he wasn't baptized? My point has been and continues to be that our sins are forgiven based on our relationship to Christ, not by any symbolic act (not that I'm saying symbolic acts have no value, I'm not saying that). No one is disputing about whether or not Baptism is symbolic. Of course it is. One is baptized because they have established a relationship with Jesus Christ. That relationship is of one who needs forgiveness and one who provides forgiveness. Christ was able to forgive sins without baptism. He can do that before baptism and after baptism. The ordinance of baptism is not for forgivess but remission of sin. It is the way in which God has given us to start anew. We are born into this world by blood, water, and spirit. We are reborn with the Blood of Jesus Christ, the Waters of Baptism, and the reception of the Holy Spirit. This is one of the reasons that it is called rebirth, because it compare the physical elements with the spiritual. To enter the kingdom of God, one must be born again; and we are to be reborn by the Blood of Christ, the Waters of Baptism, and the reception of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise it would not be a rebirth.I don't disagree. Our relationship with the Lord brings about actions. But, the point of this thread was the heretical teaching that one needs to be baptized to be saved.John 15. Christ talks about how we abide in his love, and it is by keeping his commandments. One of his commandments is to be baptized. Christ was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, or in other words, to keep all the commandments of God. If it were important enough to Christ for him to seek out John the Baptist, how much more important should it be to us? The word "counsel" in that verse also means purpose, will and advice.Abide in him is to keep in relationship with him. That's the key. It's not *what* we do, but *who* we know that's important. So baptism does not remit sin... mmmm? So when it says that we are baptized for the remission of sin, that doesn't mean anything? Is there a scripture in the new testament that says that baptism in not necessary for salvation? I can find a lot of scriptures in favor of baptism, but I can't find any against it.... How odd is that?It is odd that a group of people claim that getting wet has spiritual power, while denying the power of authentic relationship with God. Well.....evangelist, who stared this topic, has been banned and Hughes seems to have disppeared....Sorry. Went to NM on a three day vacation... catching up now.
Vance Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Abide in him is to keep in relationship with him.True,1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."Walk, even as he walked"? Hey, did Jesus get baptized?Well, if we are to "walk, even as he walked" doesn't that INCLUDED baptism? That's the key. It's not *what* we do, but *who* we know that's important. The Bible disagrees with you. See above.Who to believe, Hughes or the Bible? It is odd that a group of people claim that getting wet has spiritual power, while denying the power of authentic relationship with God. See above.And let's not forget this,Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
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