Zakuska Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I do appreciate you ignoring me. "I never knew you..." Indicating that it was the relationship (knowing) that was the key. So sorry. The quoted section is about false teachers. It's talks about doing the "will" of him who sent Jesus. What was the greatest commandment? You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind. Right? Notice that doing the will of him who sent Jesus is to Love. It's all about love. And love is the basis for what? A relationship. Now, also notice. The quoted passage contains an interesting example. Those who *claimed* to do his will were *doing* prophesy in his name and in his name drove out demons and in his name performed many miracles, correct? So, we have a group of people who *do* things in the name of Jesus, but don't *know* him. Now isn't that interesting? I wonder how that could happen? Do you happen to have any idea how a group of people could do miracles and prophesy in the name of Jesus yet not have a relationship with him? I mean could a group of people go around emphasizing the great works they do in the name of Jesus? And down play and criticize those who emphasize how relationship with God is the most important aspect of our Christian life? Could a group like that possibly exist? I mean the greatest commandment is clear, how could anyone miss that? I don't know, but Jesus said that a group like that exists.Hold it right there Hughes... what does the Bible define as "Knowing God"?1 John 51 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.An Action!The "relationship" is one of COMMANDMENT KEEPING! To know God and have a relationship with him is to keep his commandments.
Hughes Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Hold it right there Hughes... what does the Bible define as "Knowing God"?1 John 51 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.An Action!The "relationship" is one of COMMANDMENT KEEPING! To know God and have a relationship with him is to keep his commandments.Yes, and what is the greatest commandment?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Yes, and what is the greatest commandment?To Love God with all you mind, heart, and strength.This is not the only commandment though.
Zakuska Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Hughes is preaching the Cainite heresy that the early Christian Fathers warned us against!140-230 AD TERTULLIAN"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed in the faith... The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and serpents themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our ikhthus, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!" (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 669.) *** Notice that Baptism is what establishes the beleiver IN the faith! (ie. IN Christ) *** Even Paul agrees on that...Romans 63 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Galatians 3:27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Hughes Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 The question is what saves you?Does a symbolic act actually save you?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 The question is what saves you?Does a symbolic act actually save you?Faith saves you, the symbolic act is just a way to obey Christ and show your faith. If do not have faith then baptism is nothing more than a dunk in a pool of water.
GingerRed Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 HughesOK.....so explain this 'relationship' you are talking about. Please don't quote me any scriptures, I want to hear it in YOUR words, from the way YOU feel. How often do you pray? Read scriptures? Go to church? Service to others? etc? What is involved in a day to day basis with this 'relationship' that you describe? How does one have a 'relationship' with the Lord that allows you to be 'saved' without doing anything?Red
Hughes Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Faith saves you, the symbolic act is just a way to obey Christ and show your faith. If do not have faith then baptism is nothing more than a dunk in a pool of water.So it appears you agree with me. HughesOK.....so explain this 'relationship' you are talking about. Please don't quote me any scriptures, I want to hear it in YOUR words, from the way YOU feel. How often do you pray? Read scriptures? Go to church? Service to others? etc? What is involved in a day to day basis with this 'relationship' that you describe? How does one have a 'relationship' with the Lord that allows you to be 'saved' without doing anything?RedThat's an interesting question. "How do you feel... how often do you pray, read, go to church, service etc.?The point is that relationship is a connection. A very real connection. A give and take if you will. A communion of spirit. It is no different from our human relationships, from a component standpoint, just deeper in scope. How do I feel? I have an overwhelming feeling of being connected to an infinite God. It's both humbling and awe inspiring at the same time. And it's that very relationship that motivates me to *want* to do his will. I seek out what he might want, and it might be different things everyday, or the same. Paul describes it this way (forgive me, one scripture), "For in him we live and move and have our being."
Deborah Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 The point is that relationship is a connection. A very real connection. A give and take if you will. A communion of spirit. It is no different from our human relationships, from a component standpoint, just deeper in scope. What does that mean? It sounds like you don't have to do anything, just feel it.
LDSGuy Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Baptism is merely a symbolic act. Baptism is a commandment, and a way in which we follow Jesus Christ. It is for membership in the church, as we learn in Acts 2. It is the way by which we covenant with God that we will keep his commandments, take upon us the name of Christ, and always remember him. It is also preparatory to receive the baptism of fire (the Holy Ghost). Baptism by water is only half a baptism, and must be done in light of receiving the Holy Ghost. We covenant with God to do certain things and he covenants to give us the Gift of the Holy Ghost. They symbolic part of the baptism ritual is to teach us, as symbols often do. It teaches us about he death of Christ for our sins, and his burial and resurrection so that we all will live again. It also teaches that we die as to our old selves and are raised again to our new selves. Ritual and ceremony have always been a part of God's people. We should not be like the Pharisees who and lawyers in Luke 7:30. It says, "But the Pharisees and lawyers arejected the counsel of God bagainst themselves, being not cbaptized of him." They rejected the counsel of God. I certainly wouldn't want to be among those who people who reject baptism as merely symbolic, and so for go baptism, and by so doing deny the counsel of God.
LDSGuy Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 The first sentence of my previous post should read, "Baptism is not merely a symbolic act." Sorry for the typo.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Hughes is preaching the Cainite heresy that the early Christian Fathers warned us against!140-230 AD TERTULLIAN"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed in the faith... The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and serpents themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our ikhthus, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!" (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 669.) *** Notice that Baptism is what establishes the beleiver IN the faith! (ie. IN Christ) *** Even Paul agrees on that...Romans 63 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Galatians 3:27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.Don't confuse him with the facts.
Thunderfire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Yeah, like Jesus, who taught that the basis for citizenship was relationship, not actions. I believe it incorrect to separate relationship from action. In my opinion, it is impossible to develop a close relationship with the Lord without some form of action being made. As example, to develop a relationship with Jesus we believe it is important to repent of our sins (an action), be baptized (another action), deny ourselves and take up his cross daily and follow him (still another action). So relationship building can be seen as a process of many actions being taken as we build this relationship. So I agree that relationship building with the Lord is vital. Yet even when we think in terms of "building" something, this is all done through some form of (or many) actions. I'm not trying to split hairs here. But the simple reality of having "agency" denotes the need for some type of action (choice, change, etc) that must be made.
Hughes Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 What does that mean? It sounds like you don't have to do anything, just feel it.For salvation, all that is required is reconciling to God through Christ, which is done through a faith commitment [covenant] with him. It isn't based on our "works" or doing things, but putting our trust in his work. Baptism is [not] merely a symbolic act. Baptism is a commandment, and a way in which we follow Jesus Christ. It is for membership in the church, as we learn in Acts 2. It is the way by which we covenant with God that we will keep his commandments, take upon us the name of Christ, and always remember him. It is also preparatory to receive the baptism of fire (the Holy Ghost). Baptism by water is only half a baptism, and must be done in light of receiving the Holy Ghost. We covenant with God to do certain things and he covenants to give us the Gift of the Holy Ghost. They symbolic part of the baptism ritual is to teach us, as symbols often do. It teaches us about he death of Christ for our sins, and his burial and resurrection so that we all will live again. It also teaches that we die as to our old selves and are raised again to our new selves. Ritual and ceremony have always been a part of God's people. We should not be like the Pharisees who and lawyers in Luke 7:30. It says, "But the Pharisees and lawyers arejected the counsel of God bagainst themselves, being not cbaptized of him." They rejected the counsel of God. I certainly wouldn't want to be among those who people who reject baptism as merely symbolic, and so for go baptism, and by so doing deny the counsel of God.I've never said we shouldn't be baptized. The point is that the symbolic act doesn't save us. Christ alone does that. The disagreement is with article of faith, where it lists "third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins"Note, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven." But according to your articles of faith that's isn't possible, since he wasn't baptized? My point has been and continues to be that our sins are forgiven based on our relationship to Christ, not by any symbolic act (not that I'm saying symbolic acts have no value, I'm not saying that). I believe it incorrect to separate relationship from action. In my opinion, it is impossible to develop a close relationship with the Lord without some form of action being made. As example, to develop a relationship with Jesus we believe it is important to repent of our sins (an action), be baptized (another action), deny ourselves and take up his cross daily and follow him (still another action). So relationship building can be seen as a process of many actions being taken as we build this relationship. So I agree that relationship building with the Lord is vital. Yet even when we think in terms of "building" something, this is all done through some form of (or many) actions. I'm not trying to split hairs here. But the simple reality of having "agency" denotes the need for some type of action (choice, change, etc) that must be made.I don't disagree. Our relationship with the Lord brings about actions. But, the point of this thread was the heretical teaching that one needs to be baptized to be saved.
Thunderfire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I don't disagree. Our relationship with the Lord brings about actions. But, the point of this thread was the heretical teaching that one needs to be baptized to be saved.While I am one who believes that the "act of being baptized" does bring the individual something special, I also believe that we make the concept of salvation much more difficult than needed. For many, salvation is being freed and rescued from hell when we die. Yet what about the hellish nightmare many live on earth now? We seem to forget the power of salvation in this life which baptism opens to those who make that covenant. So in essence, I do not believe it is heretical to say we must be baptized to be saved when we look at this sacrament as opening the door for taking upon (and within) ourselves Jesus Christ. We are given counsel by the Lord to not worry about tomorrow and to focus on today. For me, this can also denote a form of salvation in him in THIS LIFE which we seem to discount, only looking toward tomorrow.
Hughes Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 While I am one who believes that the "act of being baptized" does bring the individual something special, I also believe that we make the concept of salvation much more difficult than needed. For many, salvation is being freed and rescued from hell when we die. Yet what about the hellish nightmare many live on earth now? We seem to forget the power of salvation in this life which baptism opens to those who make that covenant. So in essence, I do not believe it is heretical to say we must be baptized to be saved when we look at this sacrament as opening the door for taking upon (and within) ourselves Jesus Christ. We are given counsel by the Lord to not worry about tomorrow and to focus on today. For me, this can also denote a form of salvation in him in THIS LIFE which we seem to discount, only looking toward tomorrow.Just to clarify, you believe that the symbolic act actually is necessary for salvation?
Calm Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 We seem to forget the power of salvation in this life which baptism opens to those who make that covenant. So in essence, I do not believe it is heretical to say we must be baptized to be saved when we look at this sacrament as opening the door for taking upon (and within) ourselves Jesus Christ. We are given counsel by the Lord to not worry about tomorrow and to focus on today. For me, this can also denote a form of salvation in him in THIS LIFE which we seem to discount, only looking toward tomorrow.Amen
Vance Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Just to clarify, you believe that the symbolic act actually is necessary for salvation?1 Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:Back to ignoring you.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 1 Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:Back to ignoring you. You sure have a tough time ignoring him. Lol.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 For salvation, all that is required is reconciling to God through Christ, which is done through a faith commitment [covenant] with him. It isn't based on our "works" or doing things, but putting our trust in his work. And one cannot do that with out works. Stop bring up the strawman that out works save us. You keep putting the cart before the horse.All you need is faith to be saved and you don't need works because that is evidence of our salvation yet if faith with out works is dead, that tells me that faith by it's self cannot save you. So if I look at the NT as a whole we learn that we need faith to be saved, that works wont save us yet if faith have no works we are not saved either. It seems that we need faith + works= salvation. Yet you deny that plain gospel as taught in the NT.
Vance Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 You sure have a tough time ignoring him. Lol.It is more because I am bored today, than it is that he is interesting.
Thunderfire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Just to clarify, you believe that the symbolic act actually is necessary for salvation?Speaking without any ambiguity now...I DO NOT believe baptism is merely a "symbolic act", but a spiritual change actually takes place within the individual. Simply because we have limited experience with things spiritual it is easily neglicted. I will readily admit to not fully understanding these things, but I had an experience where the Lord showed me that baptism is much more important to him than we imagine. I took my mission trip to the jungles of India. I would preach in a small village, do hundreds of administrations (saw some over the top healings), and I went into the waters baptizing 112 people. In one instance the people kept coming (ended up doing 55 baptisms before it was over) and then I had an over the top experience. I'm standing in the water and heard the audible voice of the Lord speak to me. He said, "What you have done has been recognized in heaven." I heard the voice clearly and I looked up. There above me (about 25') were two eagles circling over me. I KNOW baptism is much more important than we think especially in this life, not even looking ahead for the life to come.I also know that mercy is far greater than we ever imagined and that the Lord's ways are not our ways. Joseph Smith even testified of seeing his deceased brother Alvin in a "celestial glory", yet he had died before being baptized. When he asked the Lord about it he said, "Had he lived, he would have been baptized." So we have testimony that some may not be baptized before they die and still find "salvation." Yet I have first hand experience with how salvation can come to those who are baptized in this life and how important this act is in the eyes of the Lord.
Zakuska Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 The disagreement is with article of faith, where it lists "third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins"You forget where the 4th article of faith comes from.4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.Its outlined right here... and is the Gerber Sweet Potatoes of the gospel. (See Heb 5 - Where the author is scolding the beleivers who have forgotten the basic principles of what Christ taught).Hebrews 61 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of (2) repentance from dead works, (1) and of faith toward God,2 (3) Of the doctrine of baptisms, (4) and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.3 And this will we do, if God permit.You are no where close to the "doctrine" of Christ Hughes. Why are you chipping away at the foundation of what establishes a beleiver IN Chirst?
Hughes Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 1 Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:Back to ignoring you. Sorry but a proper reading of this passage doesn't say that the symbolic act saves us. Rather, the spiritual act of baptism into Christ. And one cannot do that with out works. Stop bring up the strawman that out works save us. You keep putting the cart before the horse.All you need is faith to be saved and you don't need works because that is evidence of our salvation yet if faith with out works is dead, that tells me that faith by it's self cannot save you. So if I look at the NT as a whole we learn that we need faith to be saved, that works wont save us yet if faith have no works we are not saved either. It seems that we need faith + works= salvation. Yet you deny that plain gospel as taught in the NT.The type of faith that saves, is that type of faith that produces works. It's not Faith + works = salvation. Speaking without any ambiguity now...I DO NOT believe baptism is merely a "symbolic act", but a spiritual change actually takes place within the individual. Simply because we have limited experience with things spiritual it is easily neglicted. I will readily admit to not fully understanding these things, but I had an experience where the Lord showed me that baptism is much more important to him than we imagine. I took my mission trip to the jungles of India. I would preach in a small village, do hundreds of administrations (saw some over the top healings), and I went into the waters baptizing 112 people. In one instance the people kept coming (ended up doing 55 baptisms before it was over) and then I had an over the top experience. I'm standing in the water and heard the audible voice of the Lord speak to me. He said, "What you have done has been recognized in heaven." I heard the voice clearly and I looked up. There above me (about 25') were two eagles circling over me. I KNOW baptism is much more important than we think especially in this life, not even looking ahead for the life to come.I also know that mercy is far greater than we ever imagined and that the Lord's ways are not our ways. Joseph Smith even testified of seeing his deceased brother Alvin in a "celestial glory", yet he had died before being baptized. When he asked the Lord about it he said, "Had he lived, he would have been baptized." So we have testimony that some may not be baptized before they die and still find "salvation." Yet I have first hand experience with how salvation can come to those who are baptized in this life and how important this act is in the eyes of the Lord.Curious. If it's not simply a symbolic act, then what is it exactly. You forget where the 4th article of faith comes from.4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.Its outlined right here... and is the Gerber Sweet Potatoes of the gospel. (See Heb 5 - Where the author is scolding the beleivers who have forgotten the basic principles of what Christ taught).Hebrews 61 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of (2) repentance from dead works, (1) and of faith toward God,2 (3) Of the doctrine of baptisms, (4) and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.3 And this will we do, if God permit.You are no where close to the "doctrine" of Christ Hughes. Why are you chipping away at the foundation of what establishes a beleiver IN Chirst?And yet Jesus said that those who he "didn't know" weren't going to make it to heaven.
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