Strict Parenting?

[emeliza]

I haven't seen this anywhere on our board and wasn't sure if it had already come and gone or not. Recently a mother in Alaska was charged with child abuse. The mom does happen to be LDS. She has four biological children and two adopted children. She made a tape of punishing one of her children and sent it in to Dr. Phil. From what I saw, it appears the household rule is that you get hot sauce in the mouth for lying and a cold shower for other types of disobedience. I personally don't see this as child abuse, but rather poor judgement (especially the part about sending this in to Dr. Phil). I don't see any harm that can be done from a cold shower assuming they aren't required to go stand outside afterwards. We also know there aren't lasting issues with a bit of hot sauce in the mouth (assuming it isn't in for too long or too often). I know many parents who spank (these ones don't) and I know parents who use soap in the mouth. So I was curious on what others thought about this situation and if they think it is child abuse as well.

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=15902748&PageNum=0

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/cold-baths-tabasco-spark-adoption-flap/429541.html

[nicolasconnault]

I haven't seen this anywhere on our board and wasn't sure if it had already come and gone or not. Recently a mother in Alaska was charged with child abuse. The mom does happen to be LDS. She has four biological children and two adopted children. She made a tape of punishing one of her children and sent it in to Dr. Phil. From what I saw, it appears the household rule is that you get hot sauce in the mouth for lying and a cold shower for other types of disobedience. I personally don't see this as child abuse, but rather poor judgement (especially the part about sending this in to Dr. Phil). I don't see any harm that can be done from a cold shower assuming they aren't required to go stand outside afterwards. We also know there aren't lasting issues with a bit of hot sauce in the mouth (assuming it isn't in for too long or too often). I know many parents who spank (these ones don't) and I know parents who use soap in the mouth. So I was curious on what others thought about this situation and if they think it is child abuse as well.

http://www.itar-tass...02748&PageNum=0

http://www.themoscow...lap/429541.html

The definition of child abuse is as variable as the definition of good or evil, so whatever answer you get today will likely differ from an answer you get in 20 years' time. Child abuse is also a legal term that can land people in jail, or remove children from their parents' custody, neither of which is likely to be beneficial to the children if the issue could have been resolved through behavioural change.

What matters here isn't how cold the shower is, or how hot the sauce is, but what is perceived by the children. What emotional and psychological harm are they receiving from this treatment? Personally I don't agree with these forms of discipline because I know they trade immediate compliance with long-term negative effects. However many parents are not learned in the psychology of parenting and behaviour modification, and tend to repeat the patterns used by their own parents.

The whole business of charging her with child abuse smells of media predation. The item has come to international attention through the Dr. Phil show, and that is a great opportunity to make some money out of yet another scandal.

[frankenstein]

i saw the video of this lady and thought she was out of control. she would not have been on Dr. Phil, if she, herself, did not think something was wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4bAHBAw7UE

obviously, the hotsauce and cold showers are pointless, because the kids knows the consequence but continues to get hot sauce and cold showers.

the lady is a teacher, her husband is part of a child abuse task force. one would expect better.

[emeliza]

I guess I just didn't see it as out of control, just dumb of her. I mean, out of control isn't telling your kids that their behavior is wrong or asserting yourself. Out of control is hitting your kids and telling them that they are horrible and other bad things. Maybe my line of work has made me too hard because although I don't agree with hot sauce or cold showers, I didn't think either of those were abuse. Oh well. Guess I am in the minority on that.

And I did find on you tube where the Dr Phil show was for parents who are 'out of control' and she did send this in. So I guess that means she thinks she has a problem and most likely, she does lose control, but not so much with her 10 year old taping her.

[Calm]

I did the cold shower once (it was only cold because I had just turned it on, not because I had intended it that way and I got in it with him with all our clothes on, holding him so it wouldn't be dangerous), but it was to distract/startle my 3 year old son out of his tantrum to keep him from losing even more emotional and physical control. I only did it once realizing that though the effect worked, it might have unintended consequences and it might be better to simply remove him from the presence of others and wait it out until he became calm enough to talk about things....

However, I never got a chance to put into practice that theory because he never had another tantrum....

Make of that what you will.

[bluebell]

I don't see that has child abuse either, though it's not someting i would ever do myself as i don't think it's a good idea. I didn't watch the video though so maybe if i saw her and her mannerisms/reactions i would feel differently.

[blackstrap]

Anyone see " Precious " ? I think I missed the media circus on that one.

[katherine the great]

I did the cold shower once (it was only cold because I had just turned it on, not because I had intended it that way and I got in it with him with all our clothes on, holding him so it wouldn't be dangerous), but it was to distract/startle my 3 year old son out of his tantrum to keep him from losing even more emotional and physical control. I only did it once realizing that though the effect worked, it might have unintended consequences and it might be better to simply remove him from the presence of others and wait it out until he became calm enough to talk about things....

However, I never got a chance to put into practice that theory because he never had another tantrum....

Make of that what you will.

There's a big difference between that and what this woman did. Your discipline was dispatched immediately and quickly and done so that the child could easily attach the consequences to the negative behavior. This woman was so far beyond that its ridiculous. I'm sure this woman is frustrated with her child's behavior but there was no love at all demonstrated here and she's going to raise a little psychopath if she doesn't get some serious parenting help. She needs the Supernanny!

[nicolasconnault]

There's a big difference between that and what this woman did. Your discipline was dispatched immediately and quickly and done so that the child could easily attach the consequences to the negative behavior. This woman was so far beyond that its ridiculous. I'm sure this woman is frustrated with her child's behavior but there was no love at all demonstrated here and she's going to raise a little psychopath if she doesn't get some serious parenting help. She needs the Supernanny!

But she doesn't need to be charged with child abuse.

[katherine the great]

But she doesn't need to be charged with child abuse.

If she doesn't change her parenting techniques she should.

[nicolasconnault]

If she doesn't change her parenting techniques she should.

I agree. I just don't agree with the charge being placed before proper behaviour management techniques have been tried.

[katherine the great]

I agree. I just don't agree with the charge being placed before proper behaviour management techniques have been tried.

Ditto. . She's obviously seeking help and should not be punished for coming forward.

[MorningStar]

That is over the top. She needs to have a rational discussion with him and have him write apologies or sentences reinforcing the lesson she is trying to teach him. When my kids misbehave at school, they have to write apologies to everyone involved - the teacher, children they have affected, and one time the principal. Trying to intimidate a child into cooperating isn't very effective and will just make them resent you. There is a difference between a punishment and a rational consequence.

[emeliza]

Anyone see " Precious " ? I think I missed the media circus on that one.

Precious is not anything like what this women did. Precious is about incest and physical beatings.

That is over the top. She needs to have a rational discussion with him and have him write apologies or sentences reinforcing the lesson she is trying to teach him. When my kids misbehave at school, they have to write apologies to everyone involved - the teacher, children they have affected, and one time the principal. Trying to intimidate a child into cooperating isn't very effective and will just make them resent you. There is a difference between a punishment and a rational consequence.

I think the lady is over the top. I think she needs to take some parenting classes and I don't think her techniques will help. That being said, I still just don't see this as child abuse.

[MorningStar]

I'm not sure. Every parent makes mistakes as they try to find their way, but abuse is defined as maltreatment which is defined as treating someone with cruelty. All the child is learning is to be afraid of his mother. Real discipline takes time and it seems the mom wants instant results instead of consistently applying appropriate consequences. How can the boy even think clearly with the way she is talking to him?

[nicolasconnault]

I'm not sure. Every parent makes mistakes as they try to find their way, but abuse is defined as maltreatment which is defined as treating someone with cruelty. All the child is learning is to be afraid of his mother. Real discipline takes time and it seems the mom wants instant results instead of consistently applying appropriate consequences. How can the boy even think clearly with the way she is talking to him?

Is the mother thinking clearly? Is she acting out of desperation? Let's not make the mistake of assuming too many things here

[MorningStar]

Is the mother thinking clearly? Is she acting out of desperation? Let's not make the mistake of assuming too many things here

I'm sure she's desperate and not thinking clearly. It's just very upsetting that her son's heartbreaking reaction didn't stop her.

[nicolasconnault]

I'm sure she's desperate and not thinking clearly. It's just very upsetting that her son's heartbreaking reaction didn't stop her.

Yes, I know. Are you familiar with the concept of learned helplessness? I think it could have some application here. It would also be interesting to know how this mother was raised up as a child.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I haven't seen this anywhere on our board and wasn't sure if it had already come and gone or not. Recently a mother in Alaska was charged with child abuse. The mom does happen to be LDS. She has four biological children and two adopted children. She made a tape of punishing one of her children and sent it in to Dr. Phil. From what I saw, it appears the household rule is that you get hot sauce in the mouth for lying and a cold shower for other types of disobedience. I personally don't see this as child abuse,

If it is not, it is skirting it. I would have (and not have) never done anything like that to my children.

[Glenn101]

I personally do not like the scenario presented. Hot sauce in the mouth? Whether or not it crosses the line legally into child abuse, it seems a rather barbaric method of punishment. I have used spanking in moderation with my children, but stopped that practice as I learned more about how to influence my children and use methods that were disciplinary in nature rather than punitive.

Glenn

[katherine the great]

There was recently a couple in Eastern Idaho (aka: Northern Utah) who were arrested for making their child eat hot sauce. It IS considered child abuse in some jurisdictions. The public was outraged. I'm all in favor of disciplining our children. In fact, I consider it lazy and neglectful parenting to NOT discipline them. It has to be humane and effective though or it quickly crosses the line.

[Deborah]

This mother looks just plain mean to me. I felt so sorry for the little boy. It wasn't just what she did it was her demeanor when she did it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

i saw the video of this lady and thought she was out of control. she would not have been on Dr. Phil, if she, herself, did not think something was wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4bAHBAw7UE

obviously, the hotsauce and cold showers are pointless, because the kids knows the consequence but continues to get hot sauce and cold showers.

the lady is a teacher, her husband is part of a child abuse task force. one would expect better.

Now that I have seen this

[MorningStar]

Yes, I know. Are you familiar with the concept of learned helplessness? I think it could have some application here. It would also be interesting to know how this mother was raised up as a child.

I've heard the term before but never read about it. Interesting. I don't really know the background to understand why she flipped out like that, but I think a lot of the time when parents get angry at their kids, it's because they feel like their children's behavior makes them look bad. I know when my kids misbehave, one of my first thoughts is, "Do people think I haven't taught them not to do this?" I have to get over what other people think and know that all kids make the wrong choices sometimes and that I am doing my best. Of course, I would like to take credit for everything they do right, but I can't because they were born with certain qualities. Others were learned.

We had a situation with my son one day in 1st grade. He swore in the lunchroom and had to go talk to the principal. When he got in the car, he looked absolutely fine, like he had the best day ever. I said, "How was school?" "Good." "It's pretty sad that the principal is retiring, huh?" "Yeah, I'm really going to miss her." "Do you ever get to talk to her?" "Yeah, sometimes." "Did you talk to her today?" "Uh huh." "What about?" "I don't remember." "That's a lie. You do remember." "Do you know what we talked about?" "Yes, but I want you to tell me yourself." His teacher and principal thought it was hysterical when I told them about it. He got to hand deliver written apologies to both of them the next day, which was rather painful for him and I'm sure more effective than trying to scare him into submission. Another time he lied about having his homework done. He came home and said, "Mom! I got my homework done at school! Aren't you proud of me?" He was so enthusiastic, I believed him at first. But then I e-mailed his teacher and she said, "No, that's not true." So he got to stay in from recess to do it which is torture for a child because that's what they look forward to more than anything. Yes, he drove me half insane that year, but now he's doing great in 3rd grade and consistently handing in homework. And probably swears when no adults can hear him. *sigh* He had some difficulty at the beginning of the year that got a lot better after he knew I had a special meeting with his teacher. He was really worried. Then I told him if he brought home his weekly form with a good for behavior and effort, he could stay up with me by himself. That is his favorite thing to have special time with me. That worked really well for him and his teacher has been very pleased with his improvement.

One thing I have learned as a mom is that I don't always have to give consequences immediately and can tell my kids to sit in their room while I think about how I'm going to deal with them. Other times I ask them, "What do you think your consequence should be?" Sometimes they will say, "No video games for a week." Surprising that they come up with something they truly have difficulty with.

[bluebell]

That's very hard to watch. I have a son the same age as the little boy on the video and i was in tears watching it by the end. That woman needs help.