The generational curse brought on by birth control

[theplains]

The following was taught in Gospel Truth, volume 2, page 128. George Q. Cannon served as a counselor 
in the First Presidency to four successive LDS Church presidents

Is the punishment for this "gospel truth" the same for those who commit this great sin or have less
than three children when they are capable of more? And is it really seemingly one step below or on
par with murder on the condemnation scale?
 

BIRTH CONTROL-A GREAT SIN. From what we have heard we are led to believe that the spirit is abroad 
in the earth, and is making some headway among the Latter-day saints, to look with reproach upon 
women with large families, and the desire seems to be growing among some of the younger population, 
to desire only one or two, and not to exceed three, children. We have heard that many of the 
diabolical practices of the world have been introduced... among some who profess to be Latter-day 
Saints, to prevent the bearing of children. No sin, unless it be that of murder, will meet with a 
greater condemnation from God than this evil of tampering with the fountains of life. Such sins 
will destroy the strength of any people that practices them, and the nation whose people yield to 
such vices is in great danger of destruction. No Saint can practice or encourage such corruption 
without incurring the displeasure of an offended God. (July 15, 1895, JI 30:451)

I refer to the practice of preventing the birth of children. I want to lift my voice in solemn 
warning against this, and I say to you that the woman who practices such devilish arts, or the 
man who consents to them, will be cursed of God. Such persons will be cursed in their bodies, 
cursed in their minds, cursed in their property, cursed in their offspring. God will wipe them 
out from the midst of this people and nation. Remember it.

Mothers, teach this to your daughters, for I tell you it is true. I need not pronounce any curse, 
whatever my authority may be, but I say to you that women who take this course, and men who consent 
to it, will be cursed of God Almighty, and it will rest upon them until their generation shall be 
blotted out, and their name shall be lost from the midst of the Saints of Goa unless, as I have 
said, there is deep, thorough and heartfelt repentance. (October 7, 1894, DW 49:739)

Edited Monday at 01:48 PM by theplains

[The Nehor]

In a preindustrial society the average woman had to have around 6-8 noticable pregnancies to maintain population size. On average two pregnancies don’t make it. About half of the children don’t make it to adulthood so after that you probably have three children. Enough to sustain population, cover for women who can’t or don’t have children or who die in childbirth (before meeting their ‘quota’), and to provide some growth.

Advances in medicine toppled this whole structure. Add in that children are no longer free farming labor so children become an economic disadvantage to parents and of course decisions change.

Also women (and men) in subsistence societies often practiced birth control for the health of the mother, to avoid exceeding a family size that their land will support, and to avoid complicating inheritances where having too many children means none of them have enough to live on.

Elder Cannon lived in a nation with plenty of arable land that could be gotten relatively easily compared to most places on Earth, some of the advantages of the Industrial Revolution, and is generalizing these circumstances to the whole world. According to Malthus Elder Cannon’s approach would eventually lead to disaster. Thankfully humans aren’t idiots and most of them adjust their childbearing practices in a way that benefits their own family no matter what Elder Cannon (and many others) say.

[SkyRock]

My son has a friend who just finished his mission. They combined his homecoming with a farewell for his younger sibling, as well as the baby blessing for the 10th child in the family. 

They can afford the kids financially and truly have the vision.  They could have had just 3 kids and lived in a mansion with trips around the world, but decided differently.  My interactions with the parents is that they are both extremely happy.

Well off families should have more kids.

The future belongs to those that show up.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, SkyRock said:

Well off families should have more kids.

If the parents are capable of giving them the attention the kids need and deserve and actually want them and just don’t see it as a duty.  Kids will pick up if their parents are not that interested in them as individuals and that can have traumatic effects on self worth.  

Just because you are in a good financial situation doesn’t always mean you can handle anything and everything even if having money can remove a lot of stress and worry in that area.  

Edited Tuesday at 01:37 AM by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

My son has a friend who just finished his mission. They combined his homecoming with a farewell for his younger sibling, as well as the baby blessing for the 10th child in the family. 

What convenient packaging. Sure must make the kids feel individually special as they run through the conveyer belt.

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

They can afford the kids financially and truly have the vision.  They could have had just 3 kids and lived in a mansion with trips around the world, but decided differently.  My interactions with the parents is that they are both extremely happy.

Are the kids extremely happy?

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

Well off families should have more kids.

By that presumably you mean households that can survive off of the income of one parent making mid six figures or more a year. Yeah, they can do what they want for the most part.

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

The future belongs to those that show up.

Since children are no carbon copies of their parents I have my doubts that this is some kind of demographic ‘winning’ strategy.

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What convenient packaging. Sure must make the kids feel individually special as they run through the conveyer belt.

I have known a couple of families where one kid is doing a homecoming talk while another does their farewell.  It probably depends on the kids, in the one case I know how they felt they liked it.  Can’t remember why, maybe they had a sense of passing the baton.  
 

I do have concerns about kids who feel like they are wanted because quantity is what is most important to their parents and not that they are loved as individuals.  

I have a relative who married a woman who wanted 8 kids because the woman she admired most had 8 kids and everyone knew this.   They had six or seven and the kids were sleeping on the floor on mattresses (not inherently unhealthy, depends on if it’s an actual choice or happening because it’s being ignored) and all she could think about and focused her efforts on most was getting pregnant.  

Edited Monday at 07:32 PM by Calm

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have known a couple of families where one kid is doing a homecoming talk while another does their farewell.  It probably depends on the kids, in the one case I know how they felt they liked it.  Can’t remember why, maybe they had a sense of passing the baton.  

 

Yeah, I can see it going both ways. It depends on the kids involved.

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

I do have concerns about kids who feel like they are wanted because quantity is what is most important to their parents and not that they are loved as individuals.  

I have a relative who married a woman who wanted 8 kids because the woman she admired most had 8 kids and everyone knew this.   They had six or seven and the kids were sleeping on the floor on mattresses (not inherently unhealthy, depends on if it’s an actual choice or happening because it’s being ignored) and all she could think about and focused her efforts on most was getting pregnant.  

And when she had her eighth child her life became absolute bliss and she found happiness. - Chance of success 0.1254%

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, I can see it going both ways. It depends on the kids involved.

And when she had her eighth child her life became absolute bliss and she found happiness. - Chance of success 0.1254%

Yeah, they ended up getting divorced.  

I know a lot of kids who loved being part of a large family (my husband at least as an adult, one of 8 with one adopted) and others who felt unseen, unimportant.  

Edited Monday at 08:26 PM by Calm

[webbles]

For me, the way he phrases things, it sounds like he is talking about abortion.

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

If the parents are capable of giving them the attention the kids need and deserve and actually want them and just don’t see it as a duty.  Kids will pick up if their parents are not that interested in them as individuals and that can have traumatic effects on self worth.  

Just because you are in a good financial situation, doesn’t always mean you can handle anything and everything even if having money can remove a lot of stress and worry in that area.  

Having grown up in the Church, my philosophy has always been that I wanted to have as many children as my wife and I were capable of supporting, both financially and emotionally. 

I have seen too many wealthy, well-meaning parents who have given their children every opportunity except the opportunity to really develop a close relationship with their mom and dad. They had the best schools, activities, vacations, and material comforts, but very little meaningful time with the people they wanted most. No amount of money can replace a parent's consistent presence, attention, and genuine interest in who their children are becoming.

To me, the limiting factor isn't just whether you can provide for more children – it's whether each child can receive the time, love, guidance, and individual relationship they deserve.

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

me, the limiting factor isn't just whether you can provide for more children – it's whether each child can receive the time, love, guidance, and individual relationship they deserve.

 

Amen

[let’s roll]

Like most, this is a subject where one size doesn’t fit all.  Since God has promised to impart wisdom to those who earnestly seek it, I think it prudent for earnest couples to consult with, and take counsel from, God with respect to their child bearing plans.

Btw, I was the second oldest of five children raised by a single mother with a HS education.  I quite enjoyed my childhood, with the credit going in equal part to my saintly mother and my fun-loving siblings.

Edited Tuesday at 04:22 AM by let’s roll

[MustardSeed]

I’d caution anyone against rooting an extreme belief like “having less than 3 kids is akin to MURDER “ in some guys opinion, especially so long ago. 
 

Let’s allow some room for common sense. 

[The Nehor]

He had 33 children.

He also insisted that a long-running adulterous affair by one of his sons occurred in an “unguarded moment”. I have some concerns about his hierarchy of sins.

[TheTanakas]

See section 38.6.4 of the April 2022 General Handbook.

Present day prophets have specifically removed the mention of the curses and 
teach "It should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should
not judge one another in this matter".  

God still punishes those who break His commandments.

But the number of children to have should not be small as per President Kimball.

"The Church cannot approve nor condone the measures which so greatly limit the 
family" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 328–29). (mentioned in Eternal Marriage 
Student Manual Religion 234 and 235).

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints strongly encourages married couples to 
have children. It is against birth control ... We seriously regret that there should 
exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of 
their children".

"Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would 
be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially 
to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth 
control will reap disappointment by and by" (May 1971 Ensign).

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Guide to the Scriptures, Birth Control).

“The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential 
for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His 
children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force" (The Family:
Proclamation to the World).

Edited Wednesday at 01:54 PM by TheTanakas

[MustardSeed]

35 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

God still punishes those who break His commandments.

 

What do you mean by this 

[Amulek]

4 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Present day prophets have specifically removed the mention of the curses and 
teach "It should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should
not judge one another in this matter".  

God still punishes those who break His commandments.

But the number of children to have should not be small as per President Kimball.

Well, you don't get to say that it's between me and God, only to then turn around and say 'but only if it's a big number.'

You can't be breaking God's commandments if you ask God directly and then do exactly what He says. 

Now, if God wants you to have a bunch of kids, then that's definitely what you should do. And I do believe you will be held accountable if you refuse to follow his commands.

However, you don't get to pontificate on how many kids God wants me to have. You have no stewardship over my family. My wife and I already know the answer to that question - we're good, thanks.  

 

Edited Wednesday at 06:40 PM by Amulek

[smac97]

3 hours ago, Amulek said:

Well, you don't get to say that it's between me and God, only to then turn around and say 'but only if it's a big number.'

You can't be breaking God's commandments if you ask God directly and then do exactly what He says. 

Now, if God wants you to have a bunch of kids, then that's definitely what you should do. And I do believe you will be held accountable if you refuse to follow his commands.

However, you don't get to pontificate on how many kids God wants me to have. You have no stewardship over my family. My wife and I already know the answer to that question - we're good, thanks.  

I grew up in a large family but never felt any particular pressure from any family members or ecclesiastical leaders or church members to have a large family (9 kids).  Apart from the generalized counsel to have as many children as we can reasonably provide for, my wife and I were left to our own preferences and the Lord's will.  As it happens, she also came from a large family (5 kids), and we both wanted to have a large family and to have them within about 2 years of each other.  We ended up having five children at our own pace, and then felt prompted to have one more, so we ended up with six and decided to stop.  It's been a wonderful and difficult ride.  Wouldn't change it for anything.  And I also wouldn't question anyone else's decisions as to how to enact prophetic counsel on this very important topic.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

I wanted 4, my husband told me 12 when we were first dating before I knew how to tell when he was joking or not.  I figured we end up with 4.  I liked the symmetry of that number.  Figured two kids per parent was very workable.  Could even space them out three or four years and still not be too old.

My mom tanked with her 5 child (7th pregnancy) and I didn’t want that happening to my kids (she was so present as a mother for us until that happened and then it felt we were left on our own, no more help with school, no more fun art projects, no mom in charge of church parties, no parties pretty much).  And that is why I ended up with two spaced 8 years apart.  I basically was a zombie with my first pregnancy.  I wanted my son to be old enough he could fix his own meals and arrange to play with friends, etc if that happened with the second.  Second pregnancy wasn’t as bad, but my daughter was a full time job and by the time she was in kindergarten it was obviously not a good idea to try for one more.  We were going to adopt, but that was wishful thinking.  

Not one person in the Church has ever suggested I wasn’t living the commandment to multiply.  My husband is the only one who really suffered, I think.  Being a dad and grandpa is his favorite thing, he should have had more opportunities.

I did feel some pressure from my mother-in-law for the first pregnancy even though I was in school.  She was not a college grad and her daughters all got pregnant before graduating if they went (most got nursing degrees and worked).  My family was the opposite.

Edited Wednesday at 08:43 PM by Calm

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

God still punishes those who break His commandments.

God breaks his own commandments so if I go to hell for it at least God will be there with me.

[Amulek]

18 hours ago, smac97 said:

I grew up in a large family but never felt any particular pressure from any family members or ecclesiastical leaders or church members to have a large family (9 kids).  Apart from the generalized counsel to have as many children as we can reasonably provide for, my wife and I were left to our own preferences and the Lord's will.  As it happens, she also came from a large family (5 kids), and we both wanted to have a large family and to have them within about 2 years of each other.  We ended up having five children at our own pace, and then felt prompted to have one more, so we ended up with six and decided to stop.  It's been a wonderful and difficult ride.  Wouldn't change it for anything.  And I also wouldn't question anyone else's decisions as to how to enact prophetic counsel on this very important topic.

Thanks,

-Smac

My wife and I each came from large families (6-7 kids). And we both had largely positive experiences, so we were certainly open to having a bigger family ourselves.

Going into our marriage, we were in alignment on the 4-5 range as being our Platonic target, subject to the Lord's will. I was mentally prepared for anything between 3 and 8. But, as Forrest Gump's mamma used to say, "Life was like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gonna get."

Well, what we got were two amazing children over the course of five years, and more time spent in hospitals than I would wish on my worst enemy. To this day, I can recall the smell of the soap used in the NICU with ease.

I'm eternally grateful for the miracles we experienced during that process, and for the impact it has had on our lives, but my wife and I also knew with complete certainty that, after our second child, our family was now complete. I don't know how to describe it other than an utterly secure and abiding feeling of peace that everything was exactly as it ought to be. 

Now, to be perfectly clear, I completely agree with the prophets about how seriously God takes our choices when it comes to these matters. The pinnacle of God's creation was human life. Now that God has given that power to man - and we have greater control over it today than at any point in human history (and it will only grow) - the question then becomes, what will we do with it? And I absolutely believe God will hold us accountable for our choices. 

But, like I said earlier, if you are doing exactly what God wants you to do, then you have nothing to worry about.