General Conference talk on the understanding of the Godhead

[manol]

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

When they improvise, the guitar player just knows what the bass player is gonna do, and the bass player just knows what the guitar player is gonna do!  It's like ... they're one person!

Yes! 

"Oneness" in the context of a band can happen when the musicians are all "in the (same) groove".   I suspect there is a "groove" wherein our oneness with Christ and with God and with one another can be perceived and experienced. 

[Yet another Rush tangent] Here's a groove I'd love to see in the hymnbook, even if I'd have hard time singing along:  Rush-Closer To The Heart (Lyrics) - YouTube [/Rush tangent]

Perhaps more on-topic of this thread is "that which God does now reveal" about the nature of God through the intermediary of near-death experiencers.  I get the impression that we're not yet equipped to comprehensively define "God", but that the definition would be pretty expansive.  I get the impression that we are each a part of God, an infinitely loved part of God, perhaps even a vital part of God.  I get the impression that "God is love" is a more fundamental and descriptive truth than has been generally appreciated... and if we are indeed made of the same stuff God is, then underneath all our baggage, we too are love. 

These people speak with far more authority than I can; maybe just watch the first one if you're short on time (I'm pretty sure he has an LDS background), it's only about five minutes, and you can do the captioning thing to make it easier to follow along: 

Stories About Meeting God - A Compilation of NDE's - YouTube

 

Edited July 30 by manol

[Calm]

1 hour ago, manol said:

Here's a groove I'd love to see in the hymnbook, even if I'd have hard time singing along

My choice…Lord, Is It Mine? by Supertramp

Even in the Quietest Moments would be another good one except it is a bit ambiguous and could be either romantic or spiritual.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, manol said:

Yes! 

"Oneness" in the context of a band can happen when the musicians are all "in the (same) groove".   I suspect there is a "groove" wherein our oneness with Christ and with God and with one another can be perceived and experienced. 

[Yet another Rush tangent] Here's a groove I'd love to see in the hymnbook, even if I'd have hard time singing along:  Rush-Closer To The Heart (Lyrics) - YouTube [/Rush tangent]

Perhaps more on-topic of this thread is "that which God does now reveal" about the nature of God through the intermediary of near-death experiencers.  I get the impression that we're not yet equipped to comprehensively define "God", but that the definition would be pretty expansive.  I get the impression that we are each a part of God, an infinitely loved part of God, perhaps even a vital part of God.  I get the impression that "God is love" is a more fundamental and descriptive truth than has been generally appreciated... and if we are indeed made of the same stuff God is, then underneath all our baggage, we too are love. 

These people speak with far more authority than I can; maybe just watch the first one if you're short on time (I'm pretty sure he has an LDS background), it's only about five minutes, and you can do the captioning thing to make it easier to follow along: 

Stories About Meeting God - A Compilation of NDE's - YouTube

 

Here you go: "Knowest thou not that thou art a spark of Deity, struck from the fire of His eternal blaze," This is a line from an 1857 article regarding the divine nature of men and women written by John Taylor, who later served as President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a poetic exploration of the eternal nature of human beings

[JLHPROF]

On 7/30/2026 at 2:47 PM, teddyaware said:

Here you go: "Knowest thou not that thou art a spark of Deity, struck from the fire of His eternal blaze," This is a line from an 1857 article regarding the divine nature of men and women written by John Taylor, who later served as President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a poetic exploration of the eternal nature of human beings

"The Origin and Destiny of Woman" by John Taylor - personal favorite and worth a read.

https://josephsmithfoundation.org/the-origin-object-and-destiny-of-women-john-taylor/

A selection:

"Knowest thou not that eternities ago, thy spirit, pure and holy, dwelt in thy Heavenly Father’s bosom, and in his presence, and with thy mother, one of the Queens of heaven, surrounded by thy brother and sister spirts in the spirit world, among the Gods. That as thy spirit beheld the scenes transpiring there, and thou growing in intelligence, thou sawest worlds upon worlds organized and peopled with thy kindred spirits, took upon them tabernacles, died, were resurrected, and received their exaltation on the redeemed worlds they once dwelt upon. Thou being willing and anxious to imitate them, waiting and desirous to obtain a body, a resurrection and exaltation also, and having obtained permission, thou made a covenant with one of thy kindred spirits to be thy guardian angel while in mortality, also with two others, male and female spirits, that thou wouldst come and take a tabernacle through their lineage, and become one of their offspring. You also choose a kindred spirit whom you loved in the spirit world, (and had permission to come to this planet and take a tabernacle) to be your head, stay, husband, and protector on the earth, and to exalt you in the eternal worlds. All these were arranged, likewise the spirits that should tabernacle through your lineage. "

[theplains]

On 7/26/2026 at 6:55 PM, InCognitus said:

I’ve already done that a million times now (with only slight exaggeration).  Read my last post.  Read my other posts.  See the quote below (from my last post), and my post on 10/30/2022, 11/10/2022, 11/11/2022, 11/16/2022, 12/14/2024, 03/29/2025, 05/26/2025, 08/03/2025, and 09/08/2025.  You should have engaged my responses previously if you disagree with my answer instead of asking the same questions over and over again.

I checked your links but I see no place where you address the fact that you believe Joseph Smith, 
in his King Follett discourse, was really saying that "God was not OUR God (OUR Father) from all 
eternity" as opposed to "God was not God from all eternity".

For instance, in your 11/10/2022 post, you say, "Joseph Smith never said that Heavenly Father was 
a man before he became God". 

He supposedly becomes "a" God before he becomes "our" God. Likewise, Heavenly Mother supposedly 
becomes "a" Goddess before she becomes "our" Mother.

Then, "Joseph Smith didn't provide the sequence of events in such a way to suggest he was a man 
first, and God later".

Do you believe Heavenly Mother was a woman first and then a God later?

LDS teachings have Jesus being an eternal, uncreated intelligence who became the first spirit 
child of heavenly parents, who became a God, then became a man. Lucifer, also an eternal uncreated 
intelligence, becomes another spirit child of heavenly parents, spirit brother to Jesus.

Then, "How he came to be our God is explained in the statement from Joseph Smith:  The first 
principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits 
and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could 
have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation 
to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that 
they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that 
knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world 
of spirits.  (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 354).

That is how God came to be our God".

You continually focus on the "how God came to be our God" part, which I understand given the context 
of eternal increase.

But you never show why you believe Joseph Smith clearly has this context (having spirit children) 
in mind when he says, "… it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and 
how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and 
supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so 
that you may see".

He doesn't say "how God came to be our God" like you imply and he doesn't explain how God the Father 
supposedly became a God before he supposedly becomes a man on some other world.

By the way, the quote you provided (likewise found in the 2007 version, chapter 17, page 210) also 
doesn't say anything about "God becoming our God (our Father)" in the sense he and his wife 
procreated us in some way (i.e. "eternal increase").

Your quote of "The first principles of man are self-existent with God" implies that man and woman 
exist outside of God. They are co-eternal, uncreated. In Christian theology, only God is self-existent.

"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, 
saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself."

In Christian theology, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost did not need to advance by laws to achieve 
godhood.
 

On 7/26/2026 at 6:55 PM, InCognitus said:

Did you read the quote I posted, or not?  Read it again.  Who instituted the laws?  HE did.  This quote makes it obvious, the first principles of man are “self-existent with God”, and God the Father has always been the most high God, the most intelligent and most advanced being in existence.  He advanced and progressed on his own and then he provided a plan for others to progress the same way, by keeping the laws he instituted for that purpose.

God the Father, “because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself”.  Where does Joseph Smith say another being provided those laws?  (He doesn’t).  There is no room for your interpretation in what Joseph Smith taught in that sermon.

That's self serving – a being, eternally existing as maybe intelligence, without a spirit or 
physical body, institutes laws by which he advances into becoming a God.  You never show from 
scripture where some being instituted laws to become a God before he becomes a Father.

Supposedly the LDS Father of Earth advanced and progressed into becoming a God all by himself.

Any being who needs to advance and progress into becoming a God has not always been eternally God. 
Not even the LDS Jesus can accurately be called the "Eternal God" for he is taught to have become 
a God in his pre-mortal life.
 

On 7/26/2026 at 6:55 PM, InCognitus said:

Irrelevant to this discussion.  Obviously, those early Christians were not talking about men becoming gods in the same way that you are trying to distract the topic in your comment above.

The fact that some taught that men could become gods or Gods doesn't make it true, just as what 
LDS leaders speak doesn't make it all true. That's why I've been citing LDS leaders in my posts.

What I find interesting is that you seem willing to accept the Early Church Fathers as truthful 
when they support your position, yet you're reluctant to say that any of the LDS leaders I quoted 
were wrong. I provided multiple statements, but you haven't identified which, if any, you believe 
are false.
 

On 7/26/2026 at 6:55 PM, InCognitus said:

That sure sounds to me like what the early Christian St. Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD) taught:

“You shall escape the boiling flood of hell’s eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shalt thou avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God. And thou shalt possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And thou shalt receive the kingdom of heaven, thou who, whilst thou didst sojourn in this life, didst know the Celestial King. And thou shalt be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For thou hast become God: for whatever sufferings thou didst undergo while being a man, these He gave to thee, because thou wast of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon thee, because thou hast been deified, and begotten unto immortality. This constitutes the import of the proverb, ‘Know thyself;’ i.e., discover God within thyself, for He has formed thee after His own image. For with the knowledge of self is conjoined the being an object of God’s knowledge, for thou art called by the Deity Himself. Be not therefore inflamed, O ye men, with enmity one towards another, nor hesitate to retrace with all speed your steps. For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings, rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards thee. And provided thou obeyest His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, thou shalt resemble Him, inasmuch as thou shalt have honour conferred upon thee by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish aught of the divinity of His divine perfection; having made thee even God unto His glory!” (Hippolytus, Refutation, Book 10, Chapter 30)

Do you agree?

I don't agree with the Early Church Fathers on the subject of men becoming Gods or the LDS doctrine 
of eternal increase.

Unless I'm mistaken, you believe all the LDS quotes I provided in points 1 through 4 in my earlier 
post are truthful since you haven't stated otherwise.
 

On 7/26/2026 at 6:55 PM, InCognitus said:

When heavy hitters like St. Clement of Rome, St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Theophilus of Antioch, St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Hippolytus of Rome, Origen (Highly regarded as one of the most influential Christian theologians), St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Augustine of Hippo all teach that men become gods in no uncertain terms, then yes, I consider that to be a widely accepted fundamental doctrine of early Christianity.  It was a church wide doctrine, and it was found in all parts of the Christian world at that time.

But you seem to reject some LDS teachings when they are repeated across decades. You don't seem 
to view them as doctrine either. Apparently a repeated teaching is only doctrine when it comes 
from Early Church Fathers but not LDS prophets or apostles.
 

On 7/26/2026 at 6:55 PM, InCognitus said:

 Where do you think the early Christians got the teaching that men become gods that was taught so widely in earliest Christianity?  They didn’t get it from interpreting the words of one person in different ways, they received it as part of their basic teachings from the earliest time.

I believe they misinterpreted what these verses mean:

Romans 8:29- "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his 
Son..."

2 Corinthians 3:18 - "And we all... are being transformed into the same image from one degree of 
glory to another..."

Philippians 3:20–21 - "...who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body..."

1 John 3:2 - "Beloved, we are God's children now... when he appears we shall be like him, because 
we shall see him as he is."

Ephesians 4:13 - "...until we all attain... to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of 
the fullness of Christ."

Colossians 3:10 - "...have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image 
of its Creator."

The LDS Church even views only the sons of God (the joint-heirs) as exalted beings. See their 
interpretation of Romans 8:13-17 (If sons, then heirs …).  If not an heir, then not a son is the 
explanation.

I think Jehovah's Witnesses have a parallel explanation.  Only 144000 are the sons of God, the 
rest of those on Paradise Earth are friends of God.
 

On 7/26/2026 at 6:55 PM, InCognitus said:

I quoted Joseph Smith directly.  Joseph Smith emphasized that God the Father is the “head God” at least eight times in the King Follet Sermon, calling him “the head, the Father of the Gods”.  He taught that he was “more intelligent” and “saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself”.  Where is there any room in those statements for the idea that God has a God above him like you are asserting?

Is God the Father (the Father of the Gods as you say above) also the Father of Heavenly Mother 
(believed to be a God herself)?

The part about there being a God above Earth's Heavenly Father can be explained with his teaching 
"I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God 
from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see".  

The LDS Heavenly Father just doesn't come out of nowhere.  Joseph Smith did not believe the God 
of our Earth was always God.

In another sermon, Joseph Smith taught : "If Abraham reasoned thus—If Jesus Christ was the Son 
of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose 
that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever 
a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without 
a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness 
of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father 
also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of 
it" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 373).

He calls it a doctrine.

Supposedly Heavenly Father calls a grand council where he announces a plan for his spirit children 
to become exalted (to become Gods).  

" … according to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all 
other Gods, before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, 
when every man shall enter into His eternal presence, and into His immortal rest" (Teachings of 
Joseph Smith, page 138].

"Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 
348).

"The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council17 to bring forth the world. The 
grand councilors sat at the head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds 
which were created at the time" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 348-349).

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and 
concocted a plan to create the world and people it" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 349).

"The contention in heaven was—Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; 
and the devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave 
their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast 
down, with all who put up their heads for him. (Book of Moses—Pearl of Great Price, Chap. 4:1-4;
Book of Abraham, Chap. 3:23-28.)" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 357).

"Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very 
purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was. I suppose I was ordained to this 
very office in that Grand Council" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 365).

"The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand 
councilors sat at the head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds which 
were created at the time" (April 1971 Ensign, The King Follett Sermon).

Since you refer to him as the Head of the Gods, which Gods (also referred to as the grand 
councilors) at the council are you referring to?  Had Jesus and the Holy Ghost already become Gods 
before the council was planned and these are the only additional Gods, Heavenly Mother included, 
that were present there?  Or are Heavenly Mother and Father the only Gods at this grand council?
 

On 7/26/2026 at 6:55 PM, InCognitus said:

Lactantius (c. 240-c 320 AD) wrote that Jesus Christ is the "Second God":

I don't agree with Lactantius teaching Jesus Christ is the "Second God".

Jesus created Satan (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the 
beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that 
was made".

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were 
created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers 
or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and 
in him all things hold together".
 

On 7/26/2026 at 6:55 PM, InCognitus said:

The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that humans are the same “kind” of being as God (the génos of God), which makes our relationship with God more meaningful, and God shows his great love for us by providing a way that we can become like he is.

Since you believe there is no God above God the Father, then he apparently married a woman on the 
world he created, and she or all the others on her world are not the offspring of any God.

In whose image was she made?

[theplains]

On 7/26/2026 at 7:04 PM, InCognitus said:

Nope.  Exaltation: “The highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial kingdom.”

“What is exaltation?  Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.”

What about all those people who supposedly lived on the world that he (the Father) created?  Were 
they spirit children (offspring) of that Father?
 

On 7/26/2026 at 7:04 PM, InCognitus said:

So, Exaltation is defined as “the kind of life God lives”.  The kind of life that God lives includes having a resurrected body, and God the Father received a resurrected body, he “achieved” that state through his own means by laying down his life and taking it up again.  And the “highest state of happiness” is receiving a fulness of joy through the spirit and body being joined together eternally.

All terrestrial and telestial inhabitants do not receive a fulness of joy even though their spirit 
and body are joined together eternally – not even those in the two lower divisions of the celestial 
kingdom have it.

"Fulness of joy" and "eternal life" seem to be different things, and it's only reserved for exalted 
beings.

"Neither is it enough to be a good, solid citizen, contributing to charities, serving on community 
boards, and in general living a good Christian life. Although commendable, this is not sufficient 
to entitle one to the fulness of joy and the eternal life that our Father in heaven has promised 
to those who love him and keep his commandments" (January 1975, New Era, Just for Today, President 
N. Eldon Tanner).

Becoming a god (God) precedes obtaining a fulness of joy. Both Father and Mother obtained their 
fulness of joy. The LDS Father did not have a fulness of joy until he passed all his tests and 
became a God.  

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we 
would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy … We 
can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy … If we passed our tests, we would receive 
the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received … Blessings of Exaltation:  They will 
become gods. They will receive a fulness of joy" (Gospel Principles, 1997).

The LDS Father is not always a God (in a state of godhood) before he fully progresses.

"The progression of our Father in heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was strictly in accordance 
with eternal principles" (Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual).

 

On 7/26/2026 at 7:04 PM, InCognitus said:

Not quite.  I said he has always been “God” in that he is the most intelligent and most advanced being in existence, but he “achieved Godhood” using the definition of receiving a physical body and living the kind of life that God lives now in the Celestial Kingdom.  He has also become our God in that he offered us a plan to become like him and instituted laws for us to follow to become like him.

Becoming "our God" is not the same as becoming "a God".  Let's take you for example.  In LDS theology, 
you hope to become "a God" someday. Afterwards, you will have spirit children and you will become 
"their God".

As the 1997 Gospel Principles lays out one of the blessings of exaltation: "3. They will have their 
righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit 
children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an 
eternal family". 

In short, they will worship their Father and God (you).  They will not worship some other God.
 

On 7/26/2026 at 7:04 PM, InCognitus said:

 It all comes down to how you define “God”.  If to be God means to be the Supreme Being, then God the Father has always been God because he has always been the most intelligent and most advanced being in existence.  If to be God means that he progressed beyond what he was before and has provided a way for others to progress to become like he is and he rules over them, then he “became” God in that way.

But you reject the idea that some being progressed beyond what he was before and became a God then 
Father.

What were Jesus and the Holy Spirit before they were born to a heavenly mother and started their 
progression to godhood?
 

On 7/26/2026 at 7:04 PM, InCognitus said:

So, you should believe that too.  Do you believe that Heavenly Father is a higher God than Jesus like the Bible teaches?

God the Father is the most High God, the God of all other gods.

Yes. God the Father is above all the gods of the Greeks, Romans, Hindus, etc.
 

On 7/26/2026 at 7:04 PM, InCognitus said:

And God the Father would have also had an earthly father and mother when he dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ did.  And that’s exactly the way Joseph Smith taught it. 

Apparently the LDS Heavenly Father was not miraculously born as Jesus was.
 
Here are several things you seem to believe the LDS Heavenly Father cannot say:

"Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me" (Matthew 10:40).

"Just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever 
he wants." (John 5:21).

"The Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son." (John 5:22).

"So that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." (John 5:23).

"Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9).

"My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working." (John 5:17).

"The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. 
For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner." (John 5:19).

"I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me." (John 6:38).