sunstoned Posted January 8 Posted January 8 Quote Two people were killed and six others injured in a shooting outside a Salt Lake City church Wednesday night while mourners were attending a memorial service inside, police said. The shooting took place in the back parking lot of a house of worship for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Utah-based faith known widely as the Mormon church. https://wgntv.com/news/shooting-outside-lds-church-in-utah-leaves-2-dead-6-injured-no-suspect-in-custody/ More violence. I am sick about this. This was reported in the local and national news. 4
sunstoned Posted January 8 Author Posted January 8 This is the building where my Sister's Ward meets. There is lots of crime in that area. The Ward has security that patrols the church parking lot during services to prevent break-ins. 1
sunstoned Posted January 8 Author Posted January 8 (edited) dup posting Edited January 8 by sunstoned
rodheadlee Posted January 8 Posted January 8 Thanks for posting this. I could find nothing on the news this morning about it. Is that in a bad neighborhood? 1
sunstoned Posted January 8 Author Posted January 8 In my opinion, it is a sketchy neighborhood. From what my sister says, there is a lot of property crime. 1
Calm Posted January 8 Posted January 8 (edited) 2 hours ago, sunstoned said: https://wgntv.com/news/shooting-outside-lds-church-in-utah-leaves-2-dead-6-injured-no-suspect-in-custody/ More violence. I am sick about this. This was reported in the local and national news. Quote The couple said they hear gunshots in their neighborhood almost daily, but never right outside their door I don’t understand how our lawmakers are not pursuing the most effective ways to change this kind of thing. We accept significant limits on freedom of religion when it puts others in danger, such as a parent refusing necessary medical treatment for a child. Edited January 8 by Calm 4
JVW Posted January 8 Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Calm said: I don’t understand how our lawmakers are not pursuing the most effective ways to change this kind of thing. You and me both, Calm. Though I'm not sure how much the law can change this. How much of this is due to moral degradation of individuals in society vs laws that are too lax on drug trafficking or single-mother homes or whatever the root cause is for violent crimes? 1
Calm Posted January 8 Posted January 8 (edited) 5 hours ago, JVW said: laws that are too lax on drug trafficking or single-mother homes or whatever the root cause is for violent crimes? I don’t think it’s the laws that are too lax if by that you mean we need more punishment and imprisonment. If you mean more support to overcome poverty, food scarcity, etc, that will likely help a great deal imo. The Netherlands is shutting down prisons due to low occupancy. Maybe we should be looking at them to see how to drop violent crime, etc. Or any other of a number of economically developed countries with significantly lower violent crime rates than we have. PS: Violent crime is dropping in many areas, but other forms of crime, especially online crime, may not be for these countries. Added later: it makes sense to me not to use a form of punishment that makes it more likely for nonviolent offenders to not only reoffend, but become more dangerous…Iow, try other options rather than long term prison stays for these types of crimes. Edited January 9 by Calm 2
bluebell Posted January 8 Posted January 8 13 minutes ago, Calm said: I don’t think it’s the laws that are too lax if by that you mean we need more punishment and imprisonment. If you mean more support to overcome poverty, food scarcity, etc, that will likely help a great deal imo. The Netherlands is shutting down prisons due to low occupancy. Maybe we should be looking at them to see how to drop violent crime, etc. Or any other of a number of economically developed countries with significantly lower violent crime rates than we have. (Violent crime is dropping in many areas, but other forms of crime, especially online crime, may not be for these countries.) I can’t say anything about the validity of this source, but it provides some interesting information. https://amp.dw.com/en/the-story-behind-the-netherlands-empty-prisons/a-70544397 It looks like the major reason that the prisons are being shut down is because the Netherlands no longer prosecutes that much crime and the people who do go to prison go for fairly short sentences. Our criminal laws would definitely have to change a lot to match their system, because most states have mandatory lengths for conviction of certain crimes, and we definitely prosecute for all felony level offenses, and some misdemeanor ones too I’m sure. I think there is an argument to be made for re-examining our court system, and how quickly we put people to into prison for large amounts of time. There is no real rehabilitation in prison (the opposite, in fact where prisons make better ) and a justice system focused more on rehabilitation seems like it would be a good thing. 1
Calm Posted January 8 Posted January 8 10 minutes ago, bluebell said: It looks like the major reason that the prisons are being shut down is because the Netherlands no longer prosecutes that much crime and the people who do go to prison go for fairly short sentences. Yes, they apparently developed a cultural bias against long prison terms due to their experiences with Nazis, plus they have figured out that prisons stays don’t deter crime, but primarily remove criminals from society with the results of high costs for housing those who will simply commit crimes when they get out because of lacking decent employment opportunities, a more positive support system and necessary skills to live outside of prison. Convicts possibly are even more violent after incarceration due to living in an often violent prison culture as well as having a larger network of criminals to work with (social networking is not limited to business). The Netherlands appear to have better success with house arrest and community service and major rehabilitation efforts. 2
Calm Posted January 8 Posted January 8 (edited) 4 hours ago, bluebell said: because most states have mandatory lengths for conviction I am old enough I remember when mandatory minimum lengths for sentencing was pretty much reserved for crimes like murder and rape. I don’t see it as that hard of a change to flip back somewhat after the failed experiment (imo) of such sentences, at least for less serious crimes. Edited January 9 by Calm 2
sunstoned Posted January 8 Author Posted January 8 How about some sensible gun control? The fact that two people were killed at a funeral in a church parking lot means people are walking around packed. Armed at a church funeral. There is so much wrong with this. I am a gun owner, but I support basic gun control. To drive a car in this country, you need to pass a driving test, carry a valid license, have your car registered and licensed, and have it inspected every year. No one is screaming about this. Spoiler alert: Nothing is going to be done about this epidemic of violence that is eroding our country. 3
Calm Posted January 9 Posted January 9 (edited) Quote The fact that two people were killed at a funeral in a church parking lot means people are walking around packed. Armed at a church funeral. The way it was described as religion not being involved it leaves open, imo, the possibility that it wasn’t related to the funeral itself, it was more the neighborhood…though perhaps people who went to the funeral were targeted given so many were injured. But maybe it was just being at the right place at the wrong time. Shooting wasn’t random, so either someone was targeted or someone got angry over something happening it seems to me. They were taking people into custody even though they said the people weren’t suspects. Did they return fire or were they being detained for something else (if gang related?) I wonder who the funeral was for and how they died. Too many things to speculate about. That is one of the things that makes it ridiculous imo, that we have so many likely options for shootings to choose from and they are apparently not uncommon in that area (at least firing off guns). Hopefully we will get more details soon on the what and why. Edited January 9 by Calm 1
Calm Posted January 9 Posted January 9 Possible partial reason: Quote Police believe there was a dispute between people attending the funeral, which led to a possible exchange of gunfire outside the building. So yes, this looks like they had been carrying while at the funeral, which is against church rules iirc. https://kutv.com/news/local/shooting-investigation-salt-lake-city-funeral-church
bluebell Posted January 9 Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Calm said: Possible partial reason: So yes, this looks like they had been carrying while at the funeral, which is against church rules iirc. https://kutv.com/news/local/shooting-investigation-salt-lake-city-funeral-church There is a chance the gun/s were in a vehicle outside of the church, since the shooting happened in the parking lot. But hopefully more information will be provided soon. I've heard some speculate that it was gang related but I don't think there's credible sources for that. I've read in a couple of articles that the church where it took place housed Tongan wards, so probably a lot of people in attendance. 1
bluebell Posted January 9 Posted January 9 5 hours ago, Calm said: Yes, they apparently developed a cultural bias against long prison terms due to their experiences with Nazis, plus they have figured out that prisons stays don’t deter crime, but primarily remove criminals from society with the results of high costs for housing those who will simply commit crimes when they get out because of lacking decent employment opportunities, a more positive support system and necessary skills to live outside of prison. Convicts possibly are even more violent after incarceration due to living in an often violent prison culture as well as having a larger network of criminals to work with (social networking is not limited to business). The Netherlands appear to have better success with house arrest and community service and major rehabilitation efforts. I wish they had provided some references for this part of the article: Research by criminologists Judith van Valkenhoef and Edward van der Torre published in 2017 raised some doubts about the degree to which these statistics represent a success story for the Dutch judicial system. Their study points to other issues, such as inefficient police investigations and failures by state prosecutors to bring criminals to justice. They argue that the Netherlands has become a major center for the synthetic drugs market and is likely to remain so without political action. For the University of Portsmouth's Professor Francis Pakes, co-author of the above report, the statistics don't tell the whole story, and the overall decline in the prisoner population isn't solely the result of fewer crimes being committed. The study suggests that there are other factors at play, such as fewer cases being prosecuted or even investigated. He cites the growing influence of the drugs mafia in the Netherlands as evidence of this development. 1
Calm Posted January 9 Posted January 9 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I wish they had provided some references for this part of the article: Research by criminologists Judith van Valkenhoef and Edward van der Torre published in 2017 raised some doubts about the degree to which these statistics represent a success story for the Dutch judicial system. Their study points to other issues, such as inefficient police investigations and failures by state prosecutors to bring criminals to justice. They argue that the Netherlands has become a major center for the synthetic drugs market and is likely to remain so without political action. For the University of Portsmouth's Professor Francis Pakes, co-author of the above report, the statistics don't tell the whole story, and the overall decline in the prisoner population isn't solely the result of fewer crimes being committed. The study suggests that there are other factors at play, such as fewer cases being prosecuted or even investigated. He cites the growing influence of the drugs mafia in the Netherlands as evidence of this development. If that is so, it’s very unfortunate. It is much more hopeful to see something that appears to have worked to improve things even though humans mess things up so easily. 1
bluebell Posted January 9 Posted January 9 12 hours ago, Calm said: If that is so, it’s very unfortunate. It is much more hopeful to see something that appears to have worked to improve things even though humans mess things up so easily. I think we crash against the law of unintended consequences a lot more than we would like as humans. I don't think that's always a bad thing though, unless we refuse to acknowledge the weak parts of our good intentions and just let them run because we don't want to admit we were wrong or that our perspective was incomplete. I think if different sides of an issue could actually work together we could skip a lot of the negative consequences altogether, because different sides see different things and focus on different pitfalls. But I don't know if we will ever be able to get there. 3
The Nehor Posted January 10 Posted January 10 On 1/8/2026 at 1:49 PM, JVW said: You and me both, Calm. Though I'm not sure how much the law can change this. How much of this is due to moral degradation of individuals in society vs laws that are too lax on drug trafficking or single-mother homes or whatever the root cause is for violent crimes? It is poverty. It is all the poverty. We should work on fixing that. 2
bluebell Posted January 10 Posted January 10 54 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It is poverty. It is all the poverty. We should work on fixing that. If I remember right single motherhood, lack of education, and unemployment are the top contributors to poverty risk. No one can seem to figure out how to help much with any of them despite millions of dollars spent on each topic each year. (not arguing with your sentiment, just lamenting the difficulty of the challenge) 2
The Nehor Posted January 10 Posted January 10 2 hours ago, bluebell said: If I remember right single motherhood, lack of education, and unemployment are the top contributors to poverty risk. No one can seem to figure out how to help much with any of them despite millions of dollars spent on each topic each year. (not arguing with your sentiment, just lamenting the difficulty of the challenge) Universal healthcare including greater access to contraception and reproductive health care, subsidized or free childcare, democratization and overhaul of our education system, and real social safety nets. That would make a good start. 3
longview Posted January 11 Posted January 11 On 1/9/2026 at 10:45 PM, The Nehor said: Universal healthcare including greater access to contraception and reproductive health care, subsidized or free childcare, democratization and overhaul of our education system, and real social safety nets. That would make a good start. Like in Minneapolis?
The Nehor Posted January 12 Posted January 12 4 hours ago, longview said: Like in Minneapolis? Minneapolis doesn’t have all of those. Or is this a non sequiter about the alleged fraud in Minneapolis suggesting that if fraud is possible in regards to a program that having such a program is fruitless and shouldn’t exist. If so, we should really disband the military. And the government in general. If it is about Minneapolis’s alleged fraud I am pretty sure the solution is not to send in ICE agents to stop the fraud but that is what the government is doing suggesting that the supposed fraud is just a pretext to harass immigrants and political enemies. You know, like authoritarian governments do to rally support. 2
InCognitus Posted January 12 Posted January 12 I didn't see this thread until today, or I would have posted this on Friday. But here is some information about the victims: "Man killed outside church had embraced faith and nonviolence, community leader says" https://www.ksl.com/article/51430704/man-killed-outside-church-had-embraced-faith-and-nonviolence-community-leader-says 2
JVW Posted January 12 Posted January 12 On 1/9/2026 at 8:46 PM, The Nehor said: It is poverty. It is all the poverty. We should work on fixing that. You speak like rich people don't commit any crimes... Also, how does one fix poverty? I'm pretty sure govt has been working on fixing that since govt existed during the era of the dinosaurs and cavemen and no solution has been found yet. On a topical note I heard one of the men who died was the father of 10-12 kids and he had just popped outside of the church to get some formula from his car to feed his baby when he got shot and killed. Tragic. 1
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