Tithing on after-tax investments

[Rain]

9 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Source? The word used in the scriptures is "Increase" or "Interest." If you are a farmer, you did not tithe every seed you harvested. You must set aside seeds for next year (capital), feed for the oxen (operational costs), and the cost of the tools. Only the portion that is "profit" is the part that actually increased your net worth after the costs of production is considered, your "gains." So even with a modern 9-to-5 job, the Church doesn't 'mandate' a specific calculation. If a member feels that their 'increase' is what they have left after taxes and the costs of living, they can declare themselves a Full Tithe Payer, and no Bishop is allowed to tell them otherwise.

"Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income). All members who have income should pay tithing."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng

[InCognitus]

On 12/30/2025 at 3:38 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

 

Sincere seeker after truth ... who hasn't been back to engage his interlocutors since lobbing the bomb, flooring the accelerator, and exiting the scene of the drive-by bombing at high speed?  Yeeeaaahhh  ... color me doubtful on that one.  @A Wretched Soul, if I'm wrong, and if you can at least work up enough [fake? ] umbrage to return to this thread and tell me I'm wrong, I'll gladly apologize, but ... I ain't holdin' my breath!

The oddest thing to me is that normally a brand new user that has less than 25 posts can't create a new thread in the General Discussions area.  How did that happen?

[JVW]

49 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

The oddest thing to me is that normally a brand new user that has less than 25 posts can't create a new thread in the General Discussions area.  How did that happen?

It was started in the social hall and moved. I wonder if he can still reply to this thread even though it's not in social hall anymore.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

It was started in the social hall and moved. I wonder if he can still reply to this thread even though it's not in social hall anymore.

He should be able to. You could always respond on these boards, just not start them.

Edited January 2 by Rain

[InCognitus]

10 minutes ago, JVW said:

It was started in the social hall and moved. I wonder if he can still reply to this thread even though it's not in social hall anymore.

Thanks.  Now it makes sense.  I guess I wasn't tracking in my head where the thread had originated.

[Pyreaux]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

"Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one’s income to God’s Church (see Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4; interest is understood to mean income). All members who have income should pay tithing."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng

It says interest is "understood to mean income," but it doesn't define what "income" is. The phrase "interest is understood to mean income" was codified by the First Presidency in a formal letter dated March 19, 1970. They deliberately did not provide a detailed definition of "income." There is no secret glossary that then defines income as "gross salary before taxes." Your Bishop is expressly forbidden to define it.

The 1970 letter actually concludes with:

"We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly." Because the Church refuses to define "income," members generally fall into three schools of thought, and all are considered full-tithe payers:

Gross Payers: 10% of every dollar earned before taxes or bills.

Net Payers: 10% of take-home pay (after taxes/social security).

Surplus Payers: 10% of what is left after "indispensable" expenses (rent, food, cost of gas and seeds for the next crops in the "farmer's model"

The Handbook distinguishes between types of income. A business owner who earns $1,000,000 in revenue but has $950,000 in expenses does not pay $100,000 in tithing. They pay 10% of the profit ($5,000). Why should a business owner be allowed to deduct "costs of doing business" while a family is not allowed to deduct the "costs of staying alive"? They can. Their Bishop isn't allowed tell anyone your 'increase' is wrong.

If you are a farmer or business owner, "income" is synonymous with Net Profit. If it costs you $100 to make $110, your "increase" is $10. Tithing $1 is a full tithe. If you apply that same logic to your own life, your 'profit' is what's left after what you spent to earn it, and the Church allows you that agency.

Edited January 3 by Pyreaux

[Kenngo1969]

Paging @A Wretched Soul!!  "Bueller?  Bueller?" 

[Kenngo1969]

Weren't the Reelies ... Bill Reel and his acolytes ... arguing, awhile back, that 10% of surplus is the standard?  (IMO, if someone thinks that 10% of surplus is the standard and tells his friends and family that 10% of surplus is the standard, that's one thing: Such an one is entitled to one's own opinion.  If one "goes to war" [albeit only rhetorically and metaphorically speaking, of course] against the Church of Jesus Christ about 10% of surplus being the standard, Churchwide, is it therein that lies the problem?  What say ye?

[Calm]

11 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Weren't the Reelies ... Bill Reel and his acolytes ... arguing, awhile back, that 10% of surplus is the standard?  (IMO, if someone thinks that 10% of surplus is the standard and tells his friends and family that 10% of surplus is the standard, that's one thing: Such an one is entitled to one's own opinion.  If one "goes to war" [albeit only rhetorically and metaphorically speaking, of course] against the Church of Jesus Christ about 10% of surplus being the standard, Churchwide, is it therein that lies the problem?  What say ye?

Anyone taking any type of authority to interpret doctrine for the Church without being called to it and given the authority is in dangerous territory.  Expressing one’s opinion, teaching scholarship is fine…insisting what the Church has chosen to use as its standard is wrong and publicizing that position is problematic.

added:  not saying it’s inherently immoral or sinful to publicly oppose Church policy, it might even be the better way in some rare cases (I am not going to judge everyone arrogant, looking for fame and/or profit, etc. because I can’t know what efforts, if any, to bring problems to the attention of leaders have occurred before going public with some)…just be prepared for the consequences and don’t act like it’s unexpected.  The Church has been wrong with its policies on some occasions imo, but the Church also has a right imo to dictate its own correction process and what is and isn’t apostasy.

Edited January 13 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

I just stumbled across this in my "Cyber travels."  It may as well be an open letter to the James Huntsmans of the world and others of like mind ( ).  It's from the Church's General Handbook:

 

Quote

 

34.3.7

Contributions Cannot Be Refunded

When tithes and other offerings are given to the Church, they belong to the Lord. They are consecrated to Him. All such contributions are freewill offerings. They are made without reservation of purpose, retention of control, ownership in any form, or expectation of any benefit by the donor other than the Lord’s blessings.

 

 

 

 

[bsjkki]

On 1/27/2026 at 9:40 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

I just stumbled across this in my "Cyber travels."  It may as well be an open letter to the James Huntsmans of the world and others of like mind ( ).  It's from the Church's General Handbook:

 

 

 

 

If you make a big mistake, make sure there is not enough money in the bank account to cover it and it will not go through. 
 

I added an extra zero once…oops. 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

If you make a big mistake, make sure there is not enough money in the bank account to cover it and it will not go through. 
 

I added an extra zero once…oops. 

Good advice.  I think you can also call the bank and put a stop on it, but you might have to wait until it's "pending".  That usually costs money though.

[Wilderland]

On 1/1/2026 at 9:37 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

(I don't know what kind of specific training bishops receive on things like this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the only instruction they get is that the only question they should ask is, "Are you a full tithe payer?" and the only answers they should accept are, respectively, "Yes," or "No.")

I was released as a Bishop last month. We have no specific training on the intricacies of tithing, and you are correct that, “Are you a full tithe payer?” is about the extent of the question. We are instructed not to add to, embellish, or sermonize any of the recommend questions, but it IS necessary to help youth and new members better understand what an honest tithe is. Occasionally someone will ask about specifics, like tithing on net or gross. The handbook is purposefully vague-ish. It’s a matter of faith to pay tithing. “Prove me now, herewith…” They are counseled to pray and be honest with the Lord.

In part, the recommend interview is an opportunity for members to declare to the Lord their worthiness to enter His house. To my knowledge, no member of our ward lied to me about tithing during a recommend interview. However, there were a handful of times I didn’t issue a recommend, and in every instance it was because the member was not a full tithe payer, and admitted it. Interestingly, there were a few very active members who paid little in tithing, and some who never attend church who are full tithe payers. 

Bishops have to submit yearly tithing reports. One of my least favorite responsibilities was, in the context of this report, having to declare for those members who never attended tithing declaration whether they were a full, part, or non-tithe payer. The non-payers were easy. However, for those who paid something, it required looking at their donation history, generously estimating (to their benefit) how much income they might make, and completing the report. It even asks if the member declared, or the Bishop is determining the information. It takes a lot of discernment and grace, and after five years of making, quite literally, judgement calls, it never got any easier. A plea: please, please attend tithing declaration!
 

 

[mbh26]

How does that work when you're married to a nonmember?  By law, what I earn isn't all mine to decide what to spend or not spend it on.  So should I calculate it based on what would be left after alimony, child support, etc. if my spouse decided to divorce me?  Wasn't there a talk in conference about a man who kept feeling prompted to pay more and more to his ex?  I wonder if he paid tithing on all that money, or if it were up to his wife to pay or not pay on what she was awarded after the divorce?  I know that I never paid tithing on what my parents gave me as their dependent and I doubt anyone ever has.  

What about people who file for bankruptcy and ultimately stiff their creditors?  Do they still pay tithing on their two week paycheck net?  Is that right?  I'm not sure how you could file for bankruptcy and still have an increase.  That doesn't make sense to me.  

[Kenngo1969]

9 hours ago, Wilderland said:

... A plea: please, please attend tithing declaration!
 

 

Fair enough.  I'm glad I'll never be a Bishop. [Among myriad other things, no doubt, it's that "husband-of-one-wife" thingy that always has hung me up, and it ain't because I would need to divorce at least one plural wife even to be eligible.  Just sayin'!    It's like I always say: "Ya hafta monog before ya kin polyg!"   ]  It would be fairly simple for my Bishop, though, to determine that I am a full tithe payer from my history.   

[mburgess1982]

Say you fund an account with money from a job that you have paid tithing on. Over the decades you grow that from a very small amount of money into a very large amount. You then take that money and put it into dividend payers and it pays you quarterly or monthly and you can now quit your job and live off that money. Would you now pay tithing off the increase of your now very large nest egg? My gut says yes, because why not give more. None of this was ever ours to begin with anyways right