Tim Ballard's New Rants About the Church

[Rain]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

When Tim Ballard’s lawsuit is fully presented and litigated in a court of law, where verifiable evidence and full disclosure of all the evidence reign supreme, It will likely be quickly determined if he’s an arrogant, bald-faced bloviator, or if he’s an innocent man who has boldly chosen to pursue a provable case of character assassination. Until then, many of the comments on this thread will amount to the prejudicial surmisings of those who, for whatever reason, desperately need to believe Tim Ballard is guilty, even before all the evidence is heard, litigated and adjudicated. To put it gently, these are the kinds of people who would have to excuse themselves from jury duty on this case.

But one thing’s for sure, if Doug Anderson isn’t able to present evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that proves M Russell Ballard did indeed condemn and withdraw his support from Tim Ballard — in contradiction to Katherine Ballard’s claimed phone conversation with an allegedly still supportive M Russell Ballard — then Tim will likely be able to prove his case and some highly placed church employees will be proven to be either scheming liars or the victims of some kind of deception.

But conversely, if Tim Ballad’s case is proven to be based on nothing more than the audacious fantasies of fevered and delusional mind, his life and reputation will be ruined for the remainder of his life on earth. For those who are fair minded, it’s now time to reserve judgement and allow the legal process to unfold.

But it must also be said it’s highly likely that for the unfair even a full legal vindication of Tim Ballard, based provable evidence, will not be enough to prevent  them from considering him to still be fully worthy of the slander and grossly unfair character assassination he endured because they simply don’t like the way he thinks. This attitude can be summed up in not caring in the slightest if a conservative is wrongfully convicted of a murder he didn’t commit because, after all, he’s a lowlife who doesn’t deserve fairness or due process under the Constitution of the United States.

You are right that fairness and due process under the constitution are deserved by everyone, including Tim.

[JVW]

Here's where I currently stand regarding Tim Ballard. I believe that Tim Ballard did mess around with girls on his child rescuing missions. I believe that Tim Ballard is using illegal drugs as Nehor mentioned. Tim strikes me as arrogant and uncouth and I wouldn't want him as my neighbor. I believe that he has done a lot of good in rescuing children from trafficking, but that he's been in the industry too long. But I'm not inclined to entirely disbelieve all of his conspiracy claims.

I've tried looking for the articles I've seen over the years (only 1-3 total) of firsthand accounts of people who have experienced or participated in ritual satanic abuse in Utah. But I can't find the sites now. Each site was just a blog post somewhere deep in the internet of a single individual speaking about their personal experience as part of an LDS family that practiced satanic rituals. Some of these accounts were very difficult to read. Based on what I've personally seen and read, I don't think the idea is crazy that there are some members of the church, or even some members in church leadership, who are part of the secret combinations present before Jesus comes. I don't personally believe any of the 12 are involved, but I could see it at the 70 level or below.

If the LDS priesthood is God's real, true power on Earth, and if Satan is real and imitates God and fights against Him, then it stands to reason that there would be a Satanic priesthood present on the Earth with blood sacrifice and all of that stuff, and who would be the most prized person to gather into that dark priesthood? An atheist or a Judas? I'd like to note here that what I said in the preceding paragraph is pure conjecture and as much as I've tried, I will not be able to fulfill a CFR request for it and can remove this paragraph (even if I could find the sites, it's just one person's personal testimony without additional witnesses). It can be really hard to find certain material online and it was so many years ago I don't remember how I found it. I don't run in those online circles anymore.

His idea about the leadership, in general, having issues is (according to my view) from Avraham Gileadi's translation and commentary of Isaiah. Avraham's translation is free online, as well as his commentary. And the chapter I'm thinking of specifically is here: https://isaiahexplained.com/commentary/28 His translation is really, really good IMO, but his commentary I take with a grain of salt. There is a chapter in Isaiah that very explicitly condemns the tribe of Ephraim for getting rich, fat, and lazy. And Avraham, according to his deep knowledge of Isaiah and stuff, believes that that chapter is apocalyptic in nature, that it's referring to the latter-days and not some time past. And honestly, I could see it his way if I chose to. I've met many rich, fat, and lazy Ephraimites. And the church restored by Ephraim and headquartered in Ephraim's land of inheritance is incredibly wealthy.

A few snippets from the chapter commentary if you don't want to read through it all.

Quote

Ephraim’s chief sins of pride and drunkenness catch up with Israel’s birthright tribe in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment. Instead of acknowledging current inconvenient truths, the people of Ephraim look back on past glories earned in more righteous times as if they still apply today. Ephraim’s self-deception, stemming from intoxication with “wine” at the highest levels, compounds the hard times that lie ahead

Ephraim’s former “crowns of glory”—now mere “fading wreaths” on the heads of a later generation—aren’t enough to prevent Assyria’s desolating invasion. The enemy alliance promptly “devours” or “swallows up” (yibla‘enna) Ephraim’s produce. Jehovah’s Day of Judgment humbles Ephraim’s “opulent” (ge’e semanim)—literally “fat proud ones”—both political and ecclesiastical

... Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers”. Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception, they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies. Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah, they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people. The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

Ephraim’s mode of learning is still “line upon line, ... precept upon precept, ... here a little, there a little”. Assonance and alliteration parody their rote method of learning that consists of parroting back what their leaders teach.

Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know.

By seeking “refuge in deception” instead of in Jehovah, and by “hiding behind falsehoods” instead of acknowledging the truth, Ephraim’s leaders rely on their own counsel

It is impossible for Ephraim’s prophets to provide proper spiritual nurture to Jehovah’s people by performing a mélange of improper procedures that yield confusion. When things reach that point—when a simple farmer’s inspiration surpasses that of his people’s leaders —Jehovah sets his house in order 

Each poetic allegory (vv 23-26, 27-29) reiterates chapter 28’s theme of the need for divine revelation and its lack among the people of Ephraim that leaves them unprepared for Jehovah’s Day of Judgment.

Interestingly enough, Avraham was excommunicated wrongly and ended up getting rebaptized. His response to his excommunication was very gentle and humble though, the kind of response you expect from someone who is a true disciple of Christ (not like cough *Tim Ballard* cough). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Gileadi

Quote

Gileadi was counselled by a regional authority of the church to discontinue giving lectures and seminars that contradicted or questioned core church principles, which he did.[6] On September 15, 1993, Gileadi was excommunicated for apostasy from the LDS Church by his local stake presidency. Gileadi told the Deseret News that his stance became, "I will repent of whatever was wrong with me and forgive whoever wronged me. ... Excommunicated or not, everyone needs to repent - and forgive", adding that the excommunication never left him with a desire to rebel against the church.[6]

On February 27, 1996, Gileadi was re-baptized into the church, which is distinct from the reversal of church discipline on appeal. This occurred due in part to the oversight of Neal A. Maxwell.[citation needed] Gileadi later told the Salt Lake Tribune: "In my case — not a single charge was true or supported by evidence — and all mention of it was expunged from the church's records,"[7][8] as is standard practice following rebaptism.[9]

The Tim has reacted to his excommunication is wrong. God will only accept those with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and the way he speaks and talks about things doesn't really reflect either of those qualities to me. That's just my two cents there.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

This attitude can be summed up in not caring in the slightest if a conservative is wrongfully convicted of a murder he didn’t commit

Huh?

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, JVW said:

I've tried looking for the articles I've seen over the years (only 1-3 total) of firsthand accounts of people who have experienced or participated in ritual satanic abuse in Utah. But I can't find the sites now. Each site was just a blog post somewhere deep in the internet of a single individual speaking about their personal experience as part of an LDS family that practiced satanic rituals.

And when last I checked all the credible ones traced back to one particular therapist who used repressed memories therapy improperly and got her license pulled for a couple of years because of it (I may be wrong on the length of time, but she got it pulled).  There were some major family tragedies because she convinced spouses and children the father had abused them, including one that went to jail.  My memory is another committed suicide, but that might not have been attached to her.

You need to be very, very, very careful when dealing with recovered memories and children’s solicited testimonies.  The McMartin preschool debacle is a prime example.

No investigation by police of multiple jurisdictions found credible evidence outside of these recovered memories.  I will find sources on this later if someone else hasn’t already.

https://theconversation.com/the-legacy-of-implanted-satanic-abuse-memories-is-still-causing-damage-today-43755

cheating today and using wiki, have another appointment to hit 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic_(Utah)

Quote

At the trial a Utah County chief deputy attorney testified that he observed Snow coaching children through a two-way mirror. "I was appalled", said the deputy attorney, "[Snow] had so conditioned those children that I had serious concern about using them as witnesses in cases."[3] Snow countered that as a therapist, not a law enforcement investigator, she needed to create an environment where hesitant children who might have been threatened to be silent could feel comfortable disclosing abuse. Judy Pugh, a colleague of Snows at the Intermountain Sexual Abuse Treatment Center, told the court that she was concerned about how children's stories would homogeneously emerge after interviews with Snow. One ten-year-old girl testified that Snow asked her as many as fifty times in one session if Hadfield had touched her, and that she finally relented when she became afraid that Snow would yell at her otherwise.[3]

Stephen Golding, director of clinical psychology at the University of Utah testified that Snow's techniques were "subtly coercive and highly questionable. There were several inconsistencies in the testimonies of the children. On April 6th, the children accused Hadfield of fondling them as they watched a television program, however telephone records showed that Hadfield was on the phone with Snow at the time the abuse was to have occurred. The children said their father had promised to buy them a toy four-wheeler for not revealing abuse, but receipts showed that the toy was purchased before the abuse was to have occurred. Hadfield was convicted by an eight member jury on December 19, 1987, and the judge sentenced Hadfield to 6 months in the Utah County Jail.[3] The court placed an order that barred Gay Hadfield, the mother, from hiring Snow as their therapist.[6]

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/satanic-ritual-abuse-children-not-widespread-child-abuse-opposing

Edited October 23, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

Also this in relation to the Church:

Quote

The Pace memorandum was a 1990 memorandum written by Glenn L. Pace, an LDS Church general authority, describing to a committee of the church the complaints of sixty members of the church that said they had been subjected to SRA by family members and other church members. The state of Utah conducted a 30-month investigation of the claims after the Pace memorandum was leaked to the press in 1991, concluding that there was no evidence found to substantiate the testimony of the alleged victims.

Quote

The LDS Church has made no official statement related to the allegations related in the Pace memorandum. In apostleRichard G. Scott's sermon in the April 1992 general conference, he warned Latter-day Saints against "detailed leading questions that probe your past may unwittingly trigger thoughts that are more imagination or fantasy than reality."[15][non-primary source needed]

Elder Scott’s comment is very telling, imo.

[MustardSeed]

Everyone deserves to be granted a fair trial when it comes to the law.  Thank you Teddy for being adamant that we remember this basic tenet.  
 

Arrogance and creepy vibes are not elements of court process nor are they proof that he is guilty of a crime.  They are simply information.  
 

I wouldn’t hang out with him ever, based on what I know as fact about him .  The rest is for the court to decide. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Some years back one of Hugh Nibley's daughters accused him of ritualized abuse having to do with ancient Egyptian or Sumerian rites after "recovering" memories through hypnosis. He is probably the most prominent person of note in the Church to have been accused.

[ttribe]

Just now, ZealouslyStriving said:

Some years back one of Hugh Nibley's daughters accused him of ritualized abuse having to do with ancient Egyptian or Sumerian rites after "recovering" memories through hypnosis. He is probably the most prominent person of note in the Church to have been accused.

To say she was a less than credible narrator on this story would be a mild understatement.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

But one thing’s for sure, if Doug Anderson isn’t able to present evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that proves M Russell Ballard did indeed condemn and withdraw his support from Tim Ballard — in contradiction to Katherine Ballard’s claimed phone conversation with an allegedly still supportive M Russell Ballard — then Tim will likely be able to prove his case and some highly placed church employees will be proven to be either scheming liars or the victims of some kind of deception.

 

How do you explain the lack of any other response from Pres. Ballard if he actually told KB that he was not involved and would look into it?

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

When Tim Ballard’s lawsuit is fully presented and litigated in a court of law, where verifiable evidence and full disclosure of all the evidence reign supreme, It will likely be quickly determined if he’s an arrogant, bald-faced bloviator, or if he’s an innocent man who has boldly chosen to pursue a provable case of character assassination. Until then, many of the comments on this thread will amount to the prejudicial surmisings of those who, for whatever reason, desperately need to believe Tim Ballard is guilty, even before all the evidence is heard, litigated and adjudicated. To put it gently, these are the kinds of people who would have to excuse themselves from jury duty on this case.

I believe he is morally guilty even if he is not legally culpable. I read the text messages. He creepy. I talked to someone who knew him. He creepy.

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

But one thing’s for sure, if Doug Anderson isn’t able to present evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that proves M Russell Ballard did indeed condemn and withdraw his support from Tim Ballard — in contradiction to Katherine Ballard’s claimed phone conversation with an allegedly still supportive M Russell Ballard — then Tim will likely be able to prove his case and some highly placed church employees will be proven to be either scheming liars or the victims of some kind of deception.

I suspect Elder Ballard was more involved than the Church might wish he was. Too many events where they were together.

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

But conversely, if Tim Ballad’s case is proven to be based on nothing more than the audacious fantasies of fevered and delusional mind, his life and reputation will be ruined for the remainder of his life on earth. For those who are fair minded, it’s now time to reserve judgement and allow the legal process to unfold.

I don’t need the courts to adjudicate what I think about him and his antics. Even if the whole thing was a fever dream his anti-trafficking campaign was stupid and counterproductive.

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

But it must also be said it’s highly likely that for the unfair even a full legal vindication of Tim Ballard, based provable evidence, will not be enough to prevent  them from considering him to still be fully worthy of the slander and grossly unfair character assassination he endured because they simply don’t like the way he thinks. This attitude can be summed up in not caring in the slightest if a conservative is wrongfully convicted of a murder he didn’t commit because, after all, he’s a lowlife who doesn’t deserve fairness or due process under the Constitution of the United States.

I think you are confused. The Constitution isn’t there to guarantee or deny someone respect and a good character by providing courts to figure that out. Being found not guilty doesn’t make you a good person.

I remember your previous comments where you were convinced he was a good guy based solely on his demeanor (or that he was a rabid hidden sociopath). Most likely neither of those are true. He is probably just a deeply flawed human being who used manipulation and predatory tactics to seduce women. He is a lot like a garden variety cult leader. He has some charisma but uses it primarily to try to feed his ego and his sex drive. Like most cult leaders.

[Calm]

19 hours ago, ttribe said:

To say she was a less than credible narrator on this story would be a mild understatement.

 

19 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Some years back one of Hugh Nibley's daughters accused him of ritualized abuse having to do with ancient Egyptian or Sumerian rites after "recovering" memories through hypnosis. He is probably the most prominent person of note in the Church to have been accused.

Her siblings did not support her in her claims, some vigorously contradicted her, even those not in the best relationship with Hugh or the Church..  It was a shame the lengths she went for this.  I don’t understand why she thought her memory’s extreme weirdness was proof she didn’t make it up.  I have some very vivid memories, guessing they are memories of dreams since I think someone else would have noticed that our whole neighborhood (50 adults at least) had been hypnotized in the middle of the night and ending up walking down street blank faced and ignoring the cries and tugs of their children (not small town, USA either, San Francisco suburb street separated from a very busy highway by just a chain link fence back then.

Must have been hard for her thinking she had experienced something that she couldn’t get her family to accept, but she went too far in trying to get evidence.  She seems to have survived, still hanging out with Oprah.

Edited October 24, 2025 by Calm

[supersc]

If TB thinks some Church leadership are the Isaiah-based slothful watchmen (leaders, prophets, seers, etc.) of the last days as described in Isaiah, perhaps he thinks he is Jehovah's servant?

 

(Note: Chad Daybell claimed to be "the Davidic Servant"; FAIR and most Church leadership/materials have Christ as the sole Isaiah-described Davidic Servant: whereas the Isaiah Institute posits another servant of Jehovah's in the last days who may be a political/military and spiritual leader combined, if I remember correctly, based on my cursory reading of one of Avraham Gileadi's apocalyptic analysis of Isaiah.)  

[JVW]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

Also this in relation to the Church:

Elder Scott’s comment is very telling, imo.

Elder Scott is my favorite apostle of all time so whatever he says I believe it. I don't remember enough about the blog posts I've read to really comment further here, but thank you for sharing this information, I wasn't really aware of this. Regardless of whether it's actually happening or not, there is definitely enough material available (even if it's falsely or coerced) for someone to convince themselves of LDS SRA being a reality and it looks like Tim Ballard took the bait.

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

He is probably just a deeply flawed human being who used manipulation and predatory tactics to seduce women. He is a lot like a garden variety cult leader. He has some charisma but uses it primarily to try to feed his ego and his sex drive. Like most cult leaders.

I chatted with a social worker once who worked with children in the darkest police cases for his entire career and he told me (paraphrasing because of my crappy memory), "Don't trust any cop who's been a cop for more than 10 years. No normal, sane person could keep their good moral values in that industry for longer than that amount of time." I thought it was a really interesting remark, and his comment felt loaded with a lot of experience with the dark side of the police force. I can imagine his comment is doubly more applicable for those who work to rescue children who are trafficked. The kind of material they have to deal with day to day as they work to catch the bad guys would break any man, I think. And I view Tim Ballard as an example of this.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, JVW said:

Regardless of whether it's actually happening or not, there is definitely enough material available (even if it's falsely or coerced) for someone to convince themselves of LDS SRA being a reality

This is not to criticize you because it sounds like you are just commenting on the accessibility of these claims and I agree there is quite a bit out there.  But I feel the need to add that just because it’s there doesn’t mean it’s reasonable to accept it as truth, just as claims of a flat earth or faked moon landing should be approached with skepticism first.  You sound like you came across those posts quite some time ago and hadn’t researched it since and it is likely this was before the info about B Snow was easily accessible online, even in wiki at this point, as well as the info on satanic ritual abuse being debunked by therapists, LEOs, etc., but these days, no one responsible should be accepting this stuff as valid, imo, without insisting there is physical evidence made available to substantiate such.  Too much harm has been done, imo, to automatically support the possibility or even to remain neutral to it.

If someone insists it happened to them, of course you need to be careful in how you approach it as there is likely mental issues involved as likely someone has convinced them it happened or they convinced themselves (it doesn’t exclude the possibility of other forms of abuse either), which implies they are vulnerable.  I also don’t mean someone should go online at sites promoting such as out there happening, arguing with those convinced likely isn’t going to change people’s minds.  I just mean when one comes across it like on here in a casual conversation, presenting the evidence against it is important.  There is real, horrific abuse out there.  Attention paid to SRA not only pulls resources away from stopping actual abuse, but it makes it harder for many people to believe actual claims of children once they find out the truth.

I think Tim Ballard is going this route because he is trying to inflate his own importance and he recognizes this is a fear inducing idea that puts people in a panic, which makes them more likely to contribute/support him.  Given his law enforcement background, I think he is lying outright.  It is unreasonable to me that he wouldn’t be aware of the issues surrounding SRA at this point if he is even a quarter as informed about children’s safety issues as he claims.

[JVW]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

This is not to criticize you because it sounds like you are just commenting on the accessibility of these claims and I agree there is quite a bit out there.  But I feel the need to add that just because it’s there doesn’t mean it’s reasonable to accept it as truth, just as claims of a flat earth or faked moon landing should be approached with skepticism first.  You sound like you came across those posts quite some time ago and hadn’t researched it since and it is likely this was before the info about B Snow was easily accessible online, even in wiki at this point, as well as the info on satanic ritual abuse being debunked by therapists, LEOs, etc., but these days, no one responsible should be accepting this stuff as valid, imo, without insisting there is physical evidence made available to substantiate such.  Too much harm has been done, imo, to automatically support the possibility or even to remain neutral to it.

Yes I was just commenting on the accessibility of the claims. It doesn't matter how I approach it. I'm considering how Tim Ballard may have approached it, because it is a very extreme belief. I tend to remain neutral until I thoroughly research something, and I haven't researched SRA. I believe all of the evidence you've shared. By the way, the moon landing was faked.  

I will say that I 100% believe in MK Ultra and Project Monarch. I also believe in the 13 great families, the ones who loan money to sovereign nations and profit from both sides of war. And I believe that those families and those who are in their inner circle worship Satan. So, while it may not be happening in Utah, I do believe that SRA is a thing that does happen.

2 hours ago, Calm said:

If someone insists it happened to them, of course you need to be careful in how you approach it as there is likely mental issues involved as likely someone has convinced them it happened or they convinced themselves (it doesn’t exclude the possibility of other forms of abuse either), which implies they are vulnerable.  I also don’t mean someone should go online at sites promoting such as out there happening, arguing with those convinced likely isn’t going to change people’s minds.  I just mean when one comes across it like on here in a casual conversation, presenting the evidence against it is important.  There is real, horrific abuse out there.  Attention paid to SRA not only pulls resources away from stopping actual abuse, but it makes it harder for many people to believe actual claims of children once they find out the truth.

Yeah, I appreciate you taking time to provide a lot of detailed evidence.

I don't think attention paid to SRA "pulls resources away from stopping actual abuse or make it harder for people to believe actual claims of children." Especially not in "casual conversation" with people who have nothing to do (presumably) with any side of the child abuse/trafficking industry. Tim Ballard going on about it may impact "resources" but I doubt it, unless he's running a team and shifting his company's focus to this very niche, tenuous, alleged, subset of child abuse.

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I think Tim Ballard is going this route because he is trying to inflate his own importance and he recognizes this is a fear inducing idea that puts people in a panic, which makes them more likely to contribute/support him.  Given his law enforcement background, I think he is lying outright.  It is unreasonable to me that he wouldn’t be aware of the issues surrounding SRA at this point if he is even a quarter as informed about children’s safety issues as he claims.

I don't know what's going through Tim's mind. I still lean towards the "he's on drugs" explanation. But honestly he might've just gone crazy being in the child trafficking industry for as long as he has. I can't imagine what he's seen during his career. For all of his faults, Tim Ballard doesn't strike me as a man who worships money, I don't know if I can see Tim having a financial motivation to speak crazy talk.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JVW said:

For all of his faults, Tim Ballard doesn't strike me as a man who worships money, I don't know if I can see Tim having a financial motivation to speak crazy talk.

Have you looked into the whiteboard meeting accusation?  If it is true, it’s pretty much about funneling money into TB’s pocket.  Supposedly that is at least one time he lied about Pres Ballard’s involvement as a silent partner in the venture to potential backers.

There is discussion off and on of the whiteboard on a thread that heavily dissected the claims being made on various sides back in Sep 2023.  One detailed post is here:  https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75552-tim-ballard/page/10/#findComment-1210162024

 

Edited October 25, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

I had forgotten this had happened, but I believe it very much puts TB’s claims of hidden cabel members running an operation to discredit him while still pushing church leadership as decent people as improbable (not that I haven’t always seen it that way, but this confirmed my guesses of how things actually went down with the statement):

From Governor Cox:

Quote

”There was a lot of pushback, like did this really come from the church? Did it come from a rogue spokesperson?” Cox told reporters. “I reached out to the church personally and was assured that it did come from the church, that it had been vetted through all the normal church processes.”…

“I wondered, like everybody else, what was happening? There had to be something out there. To have The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issue a statement like that, a very strong statement, very rare that they do something like that,” Cox said Thursday during his monthly news conference.

I still have to do some speculating here, but I highly doubt Cox settled with speaking with someone at middle management level.  He does not name who he talked to, but it makes sense he would only be satisfied by connecting with someone who was not just handling the phone and repeating what they were told.  He had to have known he would get asked about this and besides possibly thinking of himself as a representative for all the little people wanting to know what the heck was going on, he wouldn’t want to look foolish and incompetent as he would if it came out later that it was a rogue statement and the person who assured him it was cleared what just some little guy who made assumptions.  Cox is intelligent and would have gone for information to someone in upper levels, who would be able to find out what actually happened, imo.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2023/09/21/gov-spencer-cox-says-lds-churchs/

Edited October 25, 2025 by Calm

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, JVW said:

I chatted with a social worker once who worked with children in the darkest police cases for his entire career and he told me (paraphrasing because of my crappy memory), "Don't trust any cop who's been a cop for more than 10 years. No normal, sane person could keep their good moral values in that industry for longer than that amount of time." I thought it was a really interesting remark, and his comment felt loaded with a lot of experience with the dark side of the police force. I can imagine his comment is doubly more applicable for those who work to rescue children who are trafficked. The kind of material they have to deal with day to day as they work to catch the bad guys would break any man, I think. And I view Tim Ballard as an example of this.

When I was younger and stupider I heard about a child trafficking case involving someone who created sadistic child porn. I looked into it because the punishment seemed incredibly harsh. Then I found out that hardened members of Interpol and other law enforcement organizations who primarily worked these cases called it the worst they had ever seen. I obviously didn’t see it but I did read a description. I barely made it to the bathroom before I emptied my whole stomach.

I know of one case where a guy in the FBI (family member of a friend) retired after about a decade in that kind of department. He killed himself a few days after leaving. It is a messed up world.

I don’t think Ballard falls into that group though. It sounds like he was making up his past in order to fundraise. He would boldly claim he worked for the CIA and other federal agencies but got very cagey when pressed for specifics. Also the terminology he used to describe his job when he was supposedly in the CIA is not CIA terminology.

https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/operative-or-intern-tim-ballards-story-of-working-for-the-cia-keeps-changing

I think he is a case of always being bad. I am basing this on an acquaintance of mine who knew him years ago. He described him as self-aggrandizing and a habitual liar about anything that could make himself sound good. This person was glad not to have to work with him anymore.

When law enforcement breaks under the strain or become too jaded Ballard is not what you get. You don’t get a flashy “look at me” daredevil bragging about how much good they do and trying to convince everyone they are a special forces version of Rambo. They usually become an alcoholic or succumb to depression or become abusive to try to deal with the pain.

[smac97]

On 10/22/2025 at 11:53 PM, Calm said:

If someone can find a link to the ruling on the case, I want to check if the judge really says there was nothing in the emails anyway. 

Celeste Borys, et al. v. Timothy Ballard, et al., No. 230907663, filed October 10, 202

Here you go.

[smac97]

On 10/23/2025 at 10:53 AM, bluebell said:

@smac97, are you checking in every now and then? 

Pretty big gaps between the "nows" and the "thens," but yes.

On 10/23/2025 at 10:53 AM, bluebell said:

We'd love to hear your thoughts on this topic.

I haven't been following this stuff much.  The dismissal of Celeste Borys's lawsuit was pretty significant.  Boy, her attorneys really stepped in it.  Zero common sense, nor even any sense which should have come from going to law school and practicing law.  The Utah State Bar will not look kindly on their behavior.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Here you go.

I'm bracing myself before reading! Welcome back!!!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Here you go.

Thanks!  And good to see you. 

[Calm]

The judge does not say as TB claims iirc (will doublecheck later) that the documents had nothing bad in them. He said they were irrelevant to her case, but published to make TB look bad.   That implies the judge saw inappropriate behavior in the materials.  He didn’t give TB a clean bill of moral health as implied by TB. 
 

So not a win for either based on merit (or lack there of) of the defendant, but a dismissal because of illegal information gathering.

Smac and any other lawyers or qualified commentators on legal matters, is this a case of the fruit of the poisonous tree…or rather would be if the judge had allowed them?  He is avoiding the possibility by banning the letters. 

Edited October 27, 2025 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 10/23/2025 at 4:41 PM, Calm said:

And when last I checked all the credible ones traced back to one particular therapist who used repressed memories therapy improperly and got her license pulled for a couple of years because of it (I may be wrong on the length of time, but she got it pulled).  There were some major family tragedies because she convinced spouses and children the father had abused them, including one that went to jail.  My memory is another committed suicide, but that might not have been attached to her.

The instigator was a therapist who basically did the recovered memories thing and later married the patient and they went on tour. The whole thing made no sense if you thought about it. Supposed rituals in a park at night in a suburban neighborhood right across the street from homes, her being taken away for weeks for rituals and there was no record of her missing school, and the like.

On 10/23/2025 at 4:41 PM, Calm said:

You need to be very, very, very careful when dealing with recovered memories and children’s solicited testimonies.  The McMartin preschool debacle is a prime example.

No investigation by police of multiple jurisdictions found credible evidence outside of these recovered memories.  I will find sources on this later if someone else hasn’t already.

This also reminds me of some of the Salem witch hunt trials relying on what is called spectral evidence. After Salem the consensus was you don’t use that. The European witch trials were in many ways worse what with the torture and all. The weird ironic thing is the Inquisition was created to prevent people getting killed and turned into what it was trying to stop. And I definitely don’t mean to pick on the Catholics. The Prostestants were much more into the witch hunting thing.

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The instigator was a therapist who basically did the recovered memories thing and later married the patient and they went on tour.

For Utah?  I thought Snow was the primary therapist who promoted it here.

Are you talking about the book?  Something Michelle iirc, Remembering Michelle maybe.

Edited October 27, 2025 by Calm