What They Talk About: Christians "Poaching" Ex-Mormons

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, gopher said:

I didn't suggest we should question anyone's sincerity.  I hope that isn't what you got from my comments.  I used that word because that's what it says in Moroni 10:4 "if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost".  For almost 200 years, missionaries, church leaders, parents, and friends have challenged other people to try out Moroni's promise by following the requirements listed in the verse.  Wouldn't it be useful to know how often the answer received from the Spirit is "yes, it's true" compared to "no, it's false"?   I think it would be an interesting data point to have.   I'm sure many others feel they received no answer.  But one reason the BOM has been a remarkable book is the large number of people who have claim they received an answer from the Spirit that it is from God and is true.  It seems to be one of the best conversion tools LDS missionaries still use today.  Is it only a very small minority that receive an answer that it isn't true?  If so, what does that mean?

I think a more common scenario is not getting any answer at all. Or at least not one the person perceives which amounts to the same thing.

[gopher]

19 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I agree that it would be interesting to see a statistical analysis of Moroni's promise. I would hypothesize that it would be similar to the statistical analyses that have been done for "faith healings" rituals in hospitals, where the results seem mixed (suggesting, at best, weak correlations).

I agree that the BoM seems to be the strongest conversion tool we have, and we've been using it and Moroni's promise for almost 200 years. As strong as that conversion tool is, a very small percentage of those who have been contacted have joined the church, and a fraction of those drift into inactivity or even turn away from the church. Again, I'm not sure of the exact success rate of Moroni's promise, but I would hypothesize that the correlation is far from strong.

I wasn't looking into correlation between Moroni's promise and activity in the church.  I've met people who left the church, but still maintain their belief in the BOM and I've met people who claim to have a testimony of the BOM but never joined the church.  So I'm just interested in comparing the number of those who receive a yes answer versus no answer from the Holy Ghost without going beyond that.

[gopher]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think a more common scenario is not getting any answer at all. Or at least not one the person perceives which amounts to the same thing.

I think you are probably right which is why I'm just curious about those who claim to have received an answer.  Missionaries make receiving an answer from the Spirit a very important part of the initial conversion before getting baptized.  I guess I expected that those who received a "no" answer would be just as vocal (or more) as those who receive a confirmation from the Spirit that it is true.  I think they would be a very effective counter against the church.  It would save lots of the time and money spent on looking for archeological, scientific, and other scholarly evidences that the BOM isn't true.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I think you are probably right which is why I'm just curious about those who claim to have received an answer.  Missionaries make receiving an answer from the Spirit a very important part of the initial conversion before getting baptized.  I guess I expected that those who received a "no" answer would be just as vocal (or more) as those who receive a confirmation from the Spirit that it is true.  I think they would be a very effective counter against the church.  It would save lots of the time and money spent on looking for archeological, scientific, and other scholarly evidences that the BOM isn't true.

I had people on my mission tell me the Holy Ghost told them no about the Book of Mormon. They told it to me right after I suggested it was a way to find out the truth so they were either very spiritually attuned and got a very fast answer or they were trying to wind me up. Knowing the people in my mission I favor it being the latter.

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I had people on my mission tell me the Holy Ghost told them no about the Book of Mormon. They told it to me right after I suggested it was a way to find out the truth so they were either very spiritually attuned and got a very fast answer or they were trying to wind me up. Knowing the people in my mission I favor it being the latter.

There is the possibility they had met missionaries before and been asked to read it.

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is the possibility they had met missionaries before and been asked to read it.

I doubt it. They generally said it very sarcastically.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I doubt it. They generally said it very sarcastically.

That would be a strong indicator of lack of sincerity, I would think.

Edited August 4, 2025 by Calm

[Rain]

On 8/2/2025 at 8:16 PM, Calm said:

I would assume there would be quite a bit of influence given those who had read the Book of Mormon that I mentioned were believing Christians who talked about their experience because of answering LDS claims, often they had even read the BoM because of wanting to challenge LDS claims.  It would make sense therefore for such nonLDS Christians to use similar language.

I would be more interested in comparing what the same people say to different audiences and look at the consistencies and differences.

This conversation interests me now because I am currently listening to a book now called "Mindwise".  One of the things it talks about is that we often think we know how someone's mind works more than they know.  Things like (I can't remember the exact examples) we perceive that we, ourselves, are very sincere, but we perceive that others are not.  The book talks about there being times, actions and stats that show we are correct, but we are all too often incorrect with our perception.  

So I think sometimes these people are insincere and sometimes they are much more sincere than we really perceive. 

Edited August 4, 2025 by Rain

[Rain]

18 hours ago, gopher said:

I think you are probably right which is why I'm just curious about those who claim to have received an answer.  Missionaries make receiving an answer from the Spirit a very important part of the initial conversion before getting baptized.  I guess I expected that those who received a "no" answer would be just as vocal (or more) as those who receive a confirmation from the Spirit that it is true.  I think they would be a very effective counter against the church.  It would save lots of the time and money spent on looking for archeological, scientific, and other scholarly evidences that the BOM isn't true.

What do you consider a "no" answer? What do you consider a "yes" answer?  The church very much teaches that yes answers can be as subtle as a warm feeling. It goes to great lengths explaining all sorts of ways that people will feel yes", but I would say it is very rare that people hear a "yes", yet when people bear testimony they are far more likely to express they received a yes answer even if it wasn't an actual "yes" they heard.

The church teaches far less about "no" answers.  One of those is a stupor of thought, which is obviously not hearing an actual "no". 

It is very possible that few people express they heard a no because even if they felt a stupor of thought they wouldn't have the language to express a no or if in the church wouldn't experience an actual "no" often just as they don't experience a actual "yes" often. 

So if you want to compare yeses and nos you have to make sure there is a clear definition of them both and that the definitions are of such that they can be compared fairly.

I can tell you that I never got a "yes" answer about the BoM (I have received clearly worded answers about a few things). I felt like my warm feelings and other ways that the "Spirit testifies) were a "yes", but I never got an actual "yes" just as I have recently felt there were some good things written in the BoM, but that it is no more the word of God than other things I have read and have had warm feelings about that answer, but have never heard and actual "no".  

So I think you need to compare actual yeses and nos or compare warm feelings with cold feelings or something.  You can't compare all the ways the "Spirit testifies" and limit the other side to an actual "no" and that's going to be hard since the stupor of thought is the big way people "hear" no in church doctrinal teachings.

Edited August 4, 2025 by Rain

[gopher]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I had people on my mission tell me the Holy Ghost told them no about the Book of Mormon. They told it to me right after I suggested it was a way to find out the truth so they were either very spiritually attuned and got a very fast answer or they were trying to wind me up. Knowing the people in my mission I favor it being the latter.

Maybe they could cancel out the number of those who claim to have received a yes due to pressure from the missionaries or in a bid to impress a cute LDS member to go out with them.  I don't have any examples of either, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[gopher]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

What do you consider a "no" answer? What do you consider a "yes" answer?  The church very much teaches that yes answers can be as subtle as a warm feeling. It goes to great lengths explaining all sorts of ways that people will feel yes", but I would say it is very rare that people hear a "yes", yet when people bear testimony they are far more likely to express they received a yes answer even if it wasn't an actual "yes" they heard.

The church teaches far less about "no" answers.  One of those is a stupor of thought, which is obviously not hearing an actual "no". 

It is very possible that few people express they heard a no because even if they felt a stupor of thought they wouldn't have the language to express a no or if in the church wouldn't experience an actual "no" often just as they don't experience a actual "yes" often. 

So if you want to compare yeses and nos you have to make sure there is a clear definition of them both and that the definitions are of such that they can be compared fairly.

I can tell you that I never got a "yes" answer about the BoM (I have received clearly worded answers about a few things). I felt like my warm feelings and other ways that the "Spirit testifies) were a "yes", but I never got an actual "yes" just as I have recently felt there were some good things written in the BoM, but that it is no more the word of God than other things I have read and have had warm feelings about that answer, but have never heard and actual "no".  

So I think you need to compare actual yeses and nos or compare warm feelings with cold feelings or something.  You can't compare all the ways the "Spirit testifies" and limit the other side to an actual "no" and that's going to be hard since the stupor of thought is the big way people "hear" no in church doctrinal teachings.

Good question.  I would leave it up to the individual to figure that out.  I consider whatever prompting from the Spirit that you receive is valid.  If you confidently say you believe the BOM is of God after receiving it, that's a yes.  I haven't met anyone who received a spiritual prompting that convinced them the BOM wasn't from God which is why I'm posting here. 

Why couldn't someone have a warm feeling convincing them it is false?  Especially if that's the way they receive their answers from God.  If God wants you to know the BOM isn't true, why would he give you a stupor of thought?

[Rain]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

Good question.  I would leave it up to the individual to figure that out.  I consider whatever prompting from the Spirit that you receive is valid.  If you confidently say you believe the BOM is of God after receiving it, that's a yes.  I haven't met anyone who received a spiritual prompting that convinced them the BOM wasn't from God which is why I'm posting here. 

That's kind of tricky if we are talking about members of the church.  Many people once they have felt they had a testimony and then have lost it will not feel confidence in feelings that come from the Spirit/God because they feel they were directed wrong to start with.  Though there will be some who are much more confident that it is not true when they leave, though a good many of them will not feel it came from the God because they have lost faith in God.

Then there are people like me who got no actual yes or no, but feel I got both from how I felt/feel and still feel parts are good, but don't believe it is "scripture".

That leaves never members. My mission was in Texas and Louisianna when The Godmakers was strong.  I heard quite a few people tell me their answer was no. Were they sincere?  At the time I thought most were not.  Now I realize I just assumed that with a lot of them.  There was just no way for me to know. Maybe a lot of them that didn't answer the phone or ducked out on appointments just never felt right about it.  Or maybe they just didn't care?  Who knows.

3 hours ago, gopher said:

Why couldn't someone have a warm feeling convincing them it is false? 

They could.  I didn't word that well.  I felt peace when I no longer felt it was true.  Honestly, I have felt so much more peace than I did as a believing members.  I'm sure there will be members that say it is because the Spirit is ceasing to dwell with me or that the devil no longer needs to tempt me and that's why I feel peace, but then again, there is that questioning of sincerity.

3 hours ago, gopher said:

Especially if that's the way they receive their answers from God.  If God wants you to know the BOM isn't true, why would he give you a stupor of thought?

I should not have said stupor of thought.  I knew it when I wrote it, but couldn't think how to write it.  I was hoping you would, I don't know, read my mind! lol 

I think some of it comes as what if God doesn't care if you know it is not true or what if there is no God to tell you it is not true? (For the record, I very much still believe in God and his love for us). So it kind of comes back to Moroni 10:4.  The verse promises that if you are sincere and if it is true you will get some variation of yes answer.  Technically, you could get a no answer too, but if it is not true then God either isn't real or God is different than the church teaches so for many people the only possible no answer would need to be a lack of answer.  And that makes it nearly impossible to compare fairly yeses with nos.

 

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 8/2/2025 at 7:57 PM, gopher said:

Wouldn't it be useful to know how often the answer received from the Spirit is "yes, it's true" compared to "no, it's false"? 

Would it? YMMV, but in my experience testimonies of conversion are rarely so explicit. Maybe God came down and spoke to you “yes, it’s true”. Most stories I hear are of the spirit “testifying”. Ask two Latter-day Saints what that means and you’ll get at least three different answers. Elder Holland tells us that god sometimes even gives us false impressions (like sending us down the wrong road). So sure I will grant that you will hear many testimonies from saints testifying, and maybe very little the other way around. From this exmormon and those that I know though? It’s because the experience that once was interpreted as “this is true” is now seen with further light and knowledge to have been nothing more than confirmation bias. 
 

Before you get too upset, I can’t speak for your experience. It’s yours. Perhaps God really does talk to you in a way that can’t be explained away. Good for you - seriously. I can speak for my own experience and for those on this side I have spoken to who have left the church however. And our experiences are much better explained via a secular paradigm. My lived experience makes soooo much more sense now. But no God didn’t tell me it’s not true. Because he doesn’t exist

Edited August 5, 2025 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Orthodox Christian]

Not being LDS, I haven't experienced Christians trying to talk me out of my faith by creating doubts etc. However I do know some LDS, and their faith runs very deep and strong. So I would imagine that the loss of that faith is shocking to the individual who then needs time to heal. I don't think that trying to get the exmo to join another denomination after you have destroyed or helped to destroy an ailing faith is at all helpful to that person, in fact I would imagine it might drive them in the opposite direction. I think a person living through a crisis of faith needs everyone to back off and give them space. I am sure that the last thing they need is for some zealot from another tradition  trying to supplant their faith with their own, I can imagine they are going through enough already. For those who try to destroy another person's faith, however well intentioned, don't realise the damage that they may be doing to that individual, and possibly their family relationships. I also wonder if some of those Christians who strive to destroy another's faith are motivated by pride and vanity rather than by love. 

[Damien the Leper]

After I left, several evangelical friends and acquaintances saw my leaving as an opportunity and often made me feel like a project. Their "Will you...?" questions became nauseatingly exhausting. The arrogant and narcissistic idea that they held the truth of the Bible and true Christianity was a good way to get my open-mindedness and willingness to engage in discussion to shut like a steel door. When facing situations like that it seems as though the authenticity is lacking or non-existent. The worst experiences I had were with people from the Assembly of God and Acts 29 Reformed. 

To be honest, however, Protestantism was never going to work for me anyway. The Westminster Confession has always made me want to punch myself in the face.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy hold my heart. Also, Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria is pretty rad too. 

[Orthodox Christian]

On 8/3/2025 at 11:20 PM, gopher said:

I wasn't looking into correlation between Moroni's promise and activity in the church.  I've met people who left the church, but still maintain their belief in the BOM and I've met people who claim to have a testimony of the BOM but never joined the church.  So I'm just interested in comparing the number of those who receive a yes answer versus no answer from the Holy Ghost without going beyond that.

The subject of yes/no answers is interesting. I was a member of a different tradition before  embracing Holy Orthodoxy. However, that tradition was troubled by factions and sensational controversies which was very unsettling for me. This period was very painful. So I randomly sought out an Orthodox church and priest who said I could attend and would be welcome. That was it as far any attempt at proselytising went.  I actually didn't  intend to leave my church. I just needed a breathing space, a place where I  could experience an undisputed Liturgy, and then, after that return somehow strengthened. My first impression of the Orthodox Church was one of beauty, the icons, candles etc, sensually pleasing. However the rest of the service seemed very different, foreign actually, so I didn't  think I would be going back there. I didn't  pray about it, I didn't feel any questions about if Orthodoxy was true or false so yes/no questions and answers were not in my mind...yet there was something.  Something that drew me back, something that I can't  articulate easily. The priest was always happy to see me, but no pressure. The members were respectfully friendly, but no more than that, no love bombing or anything of that kind. It was the worship. The more I became used to it the more I  began to feel that I was actually worshipping God. He was the centre. The was also the impression of anscientness , as if the Liturgy  reached right back in time to the beginning of the Christian faith. During this time I started to learn,  but again no one pressed me, and it took 2 years before I became Orthodox Christian. Did I get answers to the question, of whether it is the true faith? I  never asked the question. Was it the Spirit drawing me back?I believe so. Did I feel as though I had reached home? Yes, eventually, because I realised that He is my home, and Orthodoxy introduced me to Him in a way I had not known before. It was a gradual process, and it is still, or I am still a work in progress. And for me, I can now say a resounding Yes to the question of whether it is the true faith. But it has taken time and trust, faith and a relationship with prayer that has brought me to that answer. 

 

 

 

 

 

[gopher]

On 8/4/2025 at 6:28 PM, Rain said:

Then there are people like me who got no actual yes or no, but feel I got both from how I felt/feel and still feel parts are good, but don't believe it is "scripture".

Thanks, it would be much easier if everyone had the same, predictable experiences when it comes to receiving answers, but unfortunately that's not the case as you've noted with your experiences.  I don't claim to have any special insight on why some don't receive the unambiguous and unmistakable answers that many have experienced or those who feel they have lost their testimony.  But there seems to be a very significant number of people during the past 200 years that were/are confident in the affirmative answers they have received from the Spirit regarding the BOM and I don't think those can be easily dismissed.  I'm not looking to dismiss the experiences of those who haven't received a clear answer, but I am curious to hear from those who received a clear no answer.

On 8/4/2025 at 6:28 PM, Rain said:

I should not have said stupor of thought.  I knew it when I wrote it, but couldn't think how to write it.  I was hoping you would, I don't know, read my mind! lol 

As far as the stupor of thought, it just reminded me of the instruction given to missionaries to NOT use the verses in D&C 9 given to Oliver Cowdery when challenging people to read and pray about the BOM.  Otherwise, it causes confusion when people receive neither a burning in the bosom nor a stupor of thought.  Just last Sunday, a young women shared in F&T meeting that she had a very powerful spiritual experience while reading the BOM that made it very clear she was to serve a mission.

On 8/4/2025 at 6:28 PM, Rain said:

I think some of it comes as what if God doesn't care if you know it is not true or what if there is no God to tell you it is not true? (For the record, I very much still believe in God and his love for us). So it kind of comes back to Moroni 10:4.  The verse promises that if you are sincere and if it is true you will get some variation of yes answer.  Technically, you could get a no answer too, but if it is not true then God either isn't real or God is different than the church teaches so for many people the only possible no answer would need to be a lack of answer.  And that makes it nearly impossible to compare fairly yeses with nos.

I'm not sure I understand why God can't give a no answer.  Didn't JS get a no answer when he asked which church to join?  I don't think a lack of answer would satisfy someone who is looking for answers from God.

 

[gopher]

On 8/4/2025 at 8:40 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Would it? YMMV, but in my experience testimonies of conversion are rarely so explicit. Maybe God came down and spoke to you “yes, it’s true”. Most stories I hear are of the spirit “testifying”. Ask two Latter-day Saints what that means and you’ll get at least three different answers. Elder Holland tells us that god sometimes even gives us false impressions (like sending us down the wrong road). So sure I will grant that you will hear many testimonies from saints testifying, and maybe very little the other way around. From this exmormon and those that I know though? It’s because the experience that once was interpreted as “this is true” is now seen with further light and knowledge to have been nothing more than confirmation bias. 
 

Before you get too upset, I can’t speak for your experience. It’s yours. Perhaps God really does talk to you in a way that can’t be explained away. Good for you - seriously. I can speak for my own experience and for those on this side I have spoken to who have left the church however. And our experiences are much better explained via a secular paradigm. My lived experience makes soooo much more sense now. But no God didn’t tell me it’s not true. Because he doesn’t exist

What did you post that would possibly make me upset?  Were you being smug and condescending?  If so, it wouldn't bother me.

I have no reason to doubt your view that you experienced confirmation bias.  I also trust those who won't dismiss their spiritual experiences as confirmation bias, brain washing, cognitive dissonance, or whatever other words are used.  But my question is directed to those who believe in God and trust the answers they receive from Him.  I understand that doesn't include you.

[Senator]

On 8/5/2025 at 9:04 PM, Orthodox Christian said:

The subject of yes/no answers is interesting. I was a member of a different tradition before  embracing Holy Orthodoxy. However, that tradition was troubled by factions and sensational controversies which was very unsettling for me. This period was very painful. So I randomly sought out an Orthodox church and priest who said I could attend and would be welcome. That was it as far any attempt at proselytising went.  I actually didn't  intend to leave my church. I just needed a breathing space, a place where I  could experience an undisputed Liturgy, and then, after that return somehow strengthened. My first impression of the Orthodox Church was one of beauty, the icons, candles etc, sensually pleasing. However the rest of the service seemed very different, foreign actually, so I didn't  think I would be going back there. I didn't  pray about it, I didn't feel any questions about if Orthodoxy was true or false so yes/no questions and answers were not in my mind...yet there was something.  Something that drew me back, something that I can't  articulate easily. The priest was always happy to see me, but no pressure. The members were respectfully friendly, but no more than that, no love bombing or anything of that kind. It was the worship. The more I became used to it the more I  began to feel that I was actually worshipping God. He was the centre. The was also the impression of anscientness , as if the Liturgy  reached right back in time to the beginning of the Christian faith. During this time I started to learn,  but again no one pressed me, and it took 2 years before I became Orthodox Christian. Did I get answers to the question, of whether it is the true faith? I  never asked the question. Was it the Spirit drawing me back?I believe so. Did I feel as though I had reached home? Yes, eventually, because I realised that He is my home, and Orthodoxy introduced me to Him in a way I had not known before. It was a gradual process, and it is still, or I am still a work in progress. And for me, I can now say a resounding Yes to the question of whether it is the true faith. But it has taken time and trust, faith and a relationship with prayer that has brought me to that answer. 

 

 

 

 

 

I thank you for sharing this as you did.
It was very meaningful to me.