The war in heaven

[Calm]

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Does that require us to become Gods first?

Is there a reason why you continue to use “Gods” as opposed to “gods” even though some of us have repeatedly said capitalizing the “g” implies a belief we don’t hold?  Is there an issue for you with using “gods” instead?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

This rule was not his in his human form.

Do you mean in his mortal human form or do you believe he sets aside his resurrected human form at some time in the future?  I have seen some nonL.DS Christians say the latter, so I want to be sure I understand your position (they didn’t identify what denomination they were, so can’t be sure, but from what else they said they appeared to be either Evangelical or Fundamentalist, using Navidad’s distinctions).

[InCognitus]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is there a reason why you continue to use “Gods” as opposed to “gods” even though some of us have repeatedly said capitalizing the “g” implies a belief we don’t hold?  Is there an issue for you with using “gods” instead?

In the early Christian writings the fact that humans become "Gods" is often written as capitalized.  Maybe he ( @GoCeltics) is trying to conform to the original Christian teachings of men becoming "Gods"?

For example:

Irenaeus (c. 175 - c. 195) : “How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man?” (Against Heresies, IV.39 (St. Irenaeus). 

Origen (185-254 AD):  “Now the God of the universe is the God of the elect, and in a much greater degree of the Saviours of the elect; then He is the God of these beings who are truly Gods, and then He is the God, in a word, of the living and not of the dead.”  (Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book 2 Chapter 3).

Clement of Alexandria (c. 155 – c.220 AD): “the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. Is it not then monstrous, my friends, that while God is ceaselessly exhorting us to virtue, we should spurn His kindness and reject salvation?” (Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, Chapter 1, Paragraph 13).

Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-235 AD):   “And thou shalt receive the kingdom of heaven, thou who, whilst thou didst sojourn in this life, didst know the Celestial King. And thou shalt be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For thou hast become God: for whatever sufferings thou didst undergo while being a man, these He gave to thee, because thou wast of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon thee, because thou hast been deified, and begotten unto immortality. ...  For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings, rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards thee. And provided thou obeyest His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, thou shalt resemble Him, inasmuch as thou shalt have honour conferred upon thee by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish aught of the divinity of His divine perfection; having made thee even God unto His glory!”  (Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies, Book 10, Chapter 30).

I'm sure that's what he has in mind  

Edited October 18, 2025 by InCognitus

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Does that require us to become Gods first?

I'm not sure what the status of nations will be after all the tribulation and destruction during the events surrounding the return of Christ and the final battle with the beast, false prophet, and their armies.

Christ would ultimately rule when all would be subjected to him. This rule was not his in his human form.

You refuse to answer the perfectly reasonable questions I asked you. I believe your hesitancy to provide straightforward answers is due to either your ignorance or your unwillingness to acknowledge that in the verses quoted it’s clear that Christ is plainly and unambiguously promising the fully faithful that they will become as he is — joint heirs of the Father who inherit all the divine powers and attributes that he himself possesses. Why else would Christ give those who overcome the world the right to be seated on the very throne of God, the great tangible symbol of his divine power and authority? Isn’t it obvious that it would be blasphemous for Christ to give anyone the right to rule as heavenly kings on the throne of God unless those so blessed were fully worthy to receive that supreme honor? Why would Christ commit blasphemy?

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

Edited October 18, 2025 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

On 10/16/2025 at 12:03 PM, Calm said:

Out of curiosity what do you believe “reign[ing]” entails?

I don’t know all that it entails but 1 Corinthians 6:1-3 gives us a little picture. In some ways, it will be the ultimate fulfillment of Genesis 1:26-28. We see more in Revelation 2:26-27.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary, REIGN, verb:

1. To possess or exercise sovereign power or authority; to rule; to exercise government, as a king or emperor; or to hold the supreme power. George the third reigned over Great Britain more than fifty years.

Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness. Isaiah 32:1.

2. To be predominant; to prevail.

Pestilent diseases which commonly reign in summer or autumn.

3. To rule; to have superior or uncontrolled dominion. Romans 6:12.

[This word is never applied to the exercise of supreme power by a legislative body or the executive administration, in the United States.]

[GoCeltics]

On 10/18/2025 at 4:24 PM, InCognitus said:

Irenaeus (c. 175 - c. 195) : “How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man?” (Against Heresies, IV.39 (St. Irenaeus). 

@calm

Do you believe this applies to Heavenly Father too?

[GoCeltics]

On 10/18/2025 at 3:43 PM, Calm said:

Do you mean in his mortal human form or do you believe he sets aside his resurrected human form at some time in the future?

We know that one day Christ will return to earth physically to rule over the nations. He does not set aside his resurrected form.

[GoCeltics]

On 10/18/2025 at 3:37 PM, Calm said:

Is there a reason why you continue to use “Gods” as opposed to “gods” even though some of us have repeatedly said capitalizing the “g” implies a belief we don’t hold?  Is there an issue for you with using “gods” instead?

I think exaltation means Godhood.

[GoCeltics]

On 10/18/2025 at 10:00 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Just curious...

Were Adam and Eve married joined together marriage by God, before the Fall, in that original purpose found in the verses highlighted?

If so, why do you reject the concept of eternal marriage, if that was a component of the original purpose and the state to which the righteous are destined to return?

 

Yes. They were united in marriage by God. But in the resurrection I don’t believe we’ll marry or be given in marriage. I believe Genesis 1:28 is only for our time on our earth.

[GoCeltics]

On 10/18/2025 at 5:49 PM, teddyaware said:

You refuse to answer the perfectly reasonable questions I asked you. I believe your hesitancy to provide straightforward answers is due to either your ignorance or your unwillingness to acknowledge that in the verses quoted it’s clear that Christ is plainly and unambiguously promising the fully faithful that they will become as he is — joint heirs of the Father who inherit all the divine powers and attributes that he himself possesses. Why else would Christ give those who overcome the world the right to be seated on the very throne of God, the great tangible symbol of his divine power and authority? Isn’t it obvious that it would be blasphemous for Christ to give anyone the right to rule as heavenly kings on the throne of God unless those so blessed were fully worthy to receive that supreme honor? Why would Christ commit blasphemy?

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

While I believe Christ will give us authority to rule, that doesn’t mean we need to become Gods when we are sitting on thrones. The twenty four elders have crowns of gold upon their heads but Godhood is not applicable there either.

The co-heirs you mention are the sons of God (Romans 8:14-17).

God is on His throne. Other kings and priests do not sit on His throne.

[theplains]

On 10/16/2025 at 2:25 PM, Calm said:

“Becoming like God” is the most accurate because of nuances and inferences people tend to make with “becoming a God”.

Here are a few different cases of "god" and "God" for you to consider.  With dominion comes
worship by his own spirit children that he will have.

All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like
him—a god. He has said, "Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality
and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39).

1997 Gospel Principles

"Go and read the vision in [Doctrine and Covenants 76]. There is clearly illustrated glory 
upon glory—one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and a glory of the stars; and 
as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so do they of the telestial world 
differ in glory, and every man who reigns in celestial glory is a God to his dominions".

Teachings of Joseph Smith
 

[theplains]

On 10/16/2025 at 5:11 PM, Calm said:

You keep saying that, you may believe that is the case even no matter how often Saints disagree, but we are not forced to agree simply because you are persistent.

They are eternally Gods.  It may not make sense to you, but it is our doctrine.  Here are quite a few scriptural references demonstrating this.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/triple-index/god-eternal-nature-of?lang=eng

You no doubt accept things that you can’t comprehend in your own beliefs since you are Christian, you accept there are mysteries that surround God.  It would likely be best if you just accepted this is an LDS mystery if you can’t understand it, it doesn’t seem logical to you, how God can progress and still be eternally God.  Otherwise it will come across as you are intentionally lying about our doctrine for some reason.

Joseph Smith taught God is not God from all eternity. Heavenly Father can be considered "eternal"
in the sense that he always existed as an eternal, uncreated intelligence before he becomes a spirit
child of his heavenly parents (Jesus' grandparents) and then becomes a God.
 

Edited October 21, 2025 by theplains

[theplains]

On 10/16/2025 at 5:07 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

I was unaware that our manuals are scripture or that a statement by a church leader constitutes official, clearly established, and completely agreed upon doctrine.

Again, in all your researching to debunk Mormonism, you should check out Blake Ostler's work (unless, of course, your real intention is to pigeonhole us and set up straw men  🤔)

As Boyd K. Packer once said, "It isn't a question of who said it or when; the question 
is whether it is true".

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/boyd-k-packer/follow-rule/

[theplains]

On 10/16/2025 at 5:00 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

I super appreciate you telling me what I believe.

😐

Do you believe Jesus became a God like the LDS seminary manual teaches?

[theplains]

On 10/17/2025 at 3:00 PM, CV75 said:

Yes, they are clear but you are still not answering my questions, so this is not a productive critical, comparative exchange of beliefs between individuals as you indicated it was some 10+ weeks ago, and for which you "thanked" me. Posted August 5 

 

I provided scriptures showing the existence of one God, but you didn't provide scriptures
to support your position.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Jesus became a God like the LDS seminary manual teaches?

Do I believe that Jesus became a God?

No (at least not in the way you will strawman it).

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Yes. They were united in marriage by God. But in the resurrection I don’t believe we’ll marry or be given in marriage. I believe Genesis 1:28 is only for our time on our earth.

You do understand why this is confusing and contradictory to us in light of Creedal Christian teaching concerning the Fall, correct?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

@calm

Do you believe this applies to Heavenly Father too?

In one sense yes, I don’t believe Heavenly Father took up certain roles until after he went through mortality. But Christ was God (acted as Jehovah) before his mortality and thus I believe Heavenly also acted as God in another sense prior to his mortality. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

I think exaltation means Godhood.

And what does “Godhood” mean to you that does not apply to “godhood”?

[CV75]

23 hours ago, theplains said:

I provided scriptures showing the existence of one God, but you didn't provide scriptures
to support your position.

you are still not answering my questions

[GoCeltics]

On 10/21/2025 at 2:03 PM, Calm said:

And what does “Godhood” mean to you that does not apply to “godhood”?

Godhood is the status of someone who becomes a God (exaltation). I see no difference between Godhood and godhood.

[GoCeltics]

On 10/21/2025 at 12:19 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

You do understand why this is confusing and contradictory to us in light of Creedal Christian teaching concerning the Fall, correct?

What do you mean?

[theplains]

On 10/21/2025 at 12:18 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Do I believe that Jesus became a God?

No (at least not in the way you will strawman it).

I don't believe the following teachings about Jesus becoming God.  There is some truth in
the Book of Mormon and some of the Doctrine and Covenants however.

"As far as man is concerned, all things center in Christ. He is the Firstborn of the Father. By
obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked
him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Religion 430 and
431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 4).

"He, the lowly babe of Bethlehem who two millennia ago walked the dusty roads of the Holy 
Land, became the Lord Omnipotent" (former President Gordon B. Hinckley, "We Testify of Jesus
Christ, March 2008 Liahona).

Becoming God means you are not God from all eternity to all eternity.

Mosiah 3:5 says Jesus is "the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to 
all eternity".

Joseph Smith would eventually diverge from this.

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for 
the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being 
of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We 
have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, 
and take away the veil, so that you may see".

Even other LDS scriptures speak of the eternal nature of God (Moroni 7:22; Doctrine and 
Covenants 20:17; 39:1; 61:1; and 76:4).