The Lost City Of Zarahemla - A New Book Raises New Questions

[cinepro]

As I've mentioned in the past, I have a relative who, after a life of believing in the Mesoamerican theory of Book of Mormon geography, now believes in the Heartland model.  This change happened a few years ago, and he has several of Rodney Meldrum's books. 

 

On a recent family outing, I encountered said relative, and he shared the latest development in the argument for the Heartland.  It seems he received this book for father's day:

 

The Lost City of Zarahemla("From Iowa to Guatemala - and Back Again")

To hear this book described, it sounds like a solid and convincing counterpoint to the Mesoamerican theory. Most interesting is its discussion of the infamous quote in the Times and Seasons attributed to Joseph Smith claiming that Book of Mormon events took place in Guatemala. (For example, see here, but turn your speakers down first).

The book describes the evidence to show that this article was not written by Joseph Smith, but instead by one Benjamin Winchester. The evidence presented in the book draws Joseph Smith's support for Winchester's theory into question.

 

The book also addresses many points of the theories promoted by John Sorenson and others; his bio notes the following:

 

He first became interested in ancient cultures when visiting Italy and Greece as a teenager. At BYU he took an honors class from John Sorenson and began a life-long study of Book of Mormon archaeology, anthropology, and related topics. He has visited ancient sites in Asia, Africa, Europe, the Middle-East, and North, Central and South America. A long-time follower of the Mesoamerican model of Book of Mormon geography, he came across discrepancies that led him to reject that model. Within the last year he delved into Church history, focusing on the origin of the Mesoamerican theory. He has developed some astonishing new perspectives on previously little known historical facts and has uncovered what is becoming known as the "Smoking Gun" of the Mesoamerican theory.

 

http://www.firmlds.org/profile.php

 

Consider this a book report by hearsay; my relative was extremely impressed with the information and arguments presented in this book!  Has anyone else read it?  And if you are interested in the issues of the Heartland vs. Mesoamerican geographies, this might be a notable book worth reading.

Edited July 17, 2015 by cinepro

[Calm]

Is it the one that presents the mesoamerican locations' earliest proponents as a conspiracy? If so, I was not impressed. I am trying to remember why beside the sensationalism...I think I was not impressed with his referencing.

Edited July 17, 2015 by calmoriah

[Calm]

You can find an article by the author on the Firmlds site about the topic.

[Brant Gardner]

Neville suggests that the origin of the Mesoamerican connection was a conspiracy foisted on the Saints--and connected to the Times & Seasons articles that were very explicit in looking at Mesoamerican locations. Neville has a blog where he excoriates those who have published on Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon. He is quite critical of things that I have written, for example. As you might guess, I disagree with him. 

 

I suspect that if one believes in the Heartland correlation to the Book of Mormon, they will like this book (and the various articles on his blog).

[Kevin Christensen]

Neal Rappleye recently discussed aspects of the debate about the Times and Seasons in the Intepreter.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/war-of-words-and-tumult-of-opinions-the-battle-for-joseph-smiths-words-in-book-of-mormon-geography/#more-5417

And a recent discussion of the characteristics of the Sidon in a specific Mesoamerican context.

http://bmaf.org/articles/sidon_grijalva_or_usumacinta__allen_et_al

And the alleged villain, Sorenson.

http://bmaf.org/articles/bunch_reasons_not_include_north_america__sorensen

Perhaps I'll give the book a look, but frankly, I don't expect much.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[sunstoned]

If one is to believe the prophets, from Joseph Smith on down, then the Heartland theory is the only option.  Everyone knows the Zelph, the white Lamanite warrior story,  who's grave was found in Illinois by Joseph Smith.  Here is what was written about the experience:

 

He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or at least, in part—one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites." [History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1976, vol. 2, ch. 5, pp. 79-80]

 

 

This is strong evidence for the heartland theory.  For FAIR or FARMS to say otherwise, they have to throw JS and other prophets under the bus.

Edited July 17, 2015 by sunstoned

[strappinglad]

Honestly, I feel the undercarriage of that bus is getting mighty crowded. Besides, it's, obvious that the land Northward is Alaska. It doesn't get more northward than that .

[morgan.deane]

Since we are talking about books, Bleached Bones and Wicked Serpents: Ancient Warfare in the Book of Mormon is still available here: http://www.amazon.com/Bleached-Bones-Wicked-Serpents-Ancient/dp/1456622862/ref=as_sl_pc_ss_til?tag=legsavnin-20&linkCode=w01&linkId=DFU3R5J6R56UAF4L&creativeASIN=1456622862

 

The reviewer on Amazon (David Spencer, a National Security Affairs specialist on insurgency) called it "well written, thought provoking, and required reading."

 

Micheal Collins called it, "insightful and enlightening": http://michaelrcollings.blogspot.com/2015/03/morgan-deane-bleached-bones-and-wicked.html

 

Another called it a "brilliant tutorial for those who aren't quite at that 'Hugh Nibley understudy' level."  http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2015/03/you-dont-know-shiz-about-book-of-mormon.html

 

Brant Gardner used my research in his new book. (Though just my first chapter, I suppose I should have sent him a completed manuscript sooner. lol) And Neal Rappleye liked it and is planning a review for the Interpreter. 

 

Of course I think its pretty good too.  I cover topics as varied as the Jaredite Civil War, the face of battle, logistics, ethno-religious conflict, insurgency, Moroni's leadership, and preemptive war.  

 

I  don't engage too much with the Heartland model, in either using it in my work or in rebutting it, and I haven't read the book. (Though I've done many reviews if the author wants to send me a copy.)  My chapter on the face of battle discusses how the BoM both conforms to and expands our knowledge of Mesoamerican battle. My experience with the heartland theory proponents has been uniformly negative. I think so little of their scholarship I cringe a little bit when I read it, because I know it only reinforces the perception of BoM studies as a pseudo discipline, and makes it harder for good scholarly pieces like those from Gardner (and hopefully me) to change that perception. I'd be interested in seeing a solid review of the book if anybody can direct me to one.   

Edited July 17, 2015 by morgan.deane

[Bob Crockett]

The Times and Seasons article evidence is really a canard, one way or the other.  Joseph Smith may not have written it but he was the editor in chief.   On the other hand, there are plenty of other Times & Seasons articles putting Book of Mormon events in other parts of the Americas.

[Brant Gardner]

The Times and Seasons article evidence is really a canard, one way or the other.  Joseph Smith may not have written it but he was the editor in chief.   On the other hand, there are plenty of other Times & Seasons articles putting Book of Mormon events in other parts of the Americas.

I think anyone who tries to support a specific geography based on early statements is missing the eclectic nature of speculation. I think the idea of geography was very fluid and prone to move with any new discovery.

 

Of course, I don't think that throws anyone under the bus. It recognizes that Joseph was as flexible as the rest, which is why those prophets who followed him continued to say that there was no official location.

 

Had Joseph taught that there was something specific, it suggests that all who followed him willfully ignored an important teaching that would have come directly from Joseph--and that Joseph allowed it. I really have a hard time accepting that.

[Tacenda]

If one is to believe the prophets, from Joseph Smith on down, then the Heartland theory is the only option. Everyone knows the Zelph, the white Lamanite warrior story, who's grave was found in Illinois by Joseph Smith. Here is what was written about the experience:

This is strong evidence for the heartland theory. For FAIR or FARMS to say otherwise, they have to throw JS and other prophets under the bus.

You haven't heard? Joseph was quite the jokester and made up the story.

[sunstoned]

You haven't heard? Joseph was quite the jokester and made up the story.

That must be it!

[MDalby]

The best source to go to regarding the geography is the Book of Mormon itself.

 

It looks clear to me from the book itself that there are two hills with the name Hill Cumorah.  

 

According to Mormon 6:6 - Mormon hid up all the records in the Hill Cumorah except for the gold plates.  Due to the area being occupied by the Lamanites and fearing that the "Lamanites would destroy them", Mormon gave the gold plates to Moroni to be buried at some different location.  Why else would Mormon separate the gold plates from the primary archive of plates?  I think the other location that the gold plates would be buried is the Hill Cumorah in New York..  After Moroni received the plates, he wandered for 36 years before he last wrote on the plates.  It wouldn't make much sense for Mormon to give the plates to Moroni, to make sure the plates were safe and get the plates away from the Lamanites, and then have Moroni wander for 36 years and then turn around and bury the plates in the original Hill Cumorah with the other archives since the Lamanites still continued to surround that same area.  

 

So there is the original Hill Cumorah and another Hill Cumorah in which the plates were deposited.

 

 6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

(Mormon 6:6)

 

 23 And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord.

(Morm. 4:23)

[cinepro]

The best source to go to regarding the geography is the Book of Mormon itself.

 

It looks clear to me from the book itself that there are two hills with the name Hill Cumorah.  

 

According to Mormon 6:6 - Mormon hid up all the records in the Hill Cumorah except for the gold plates.  Due to the area being occupied by the Lamanites and fearing that the "Lamanites would destroy them", Mormon gave the gold plates to Moroni to be buried at some different location.  Why else would Mormon separate the gold plates from the primary archive of plates?  I think the other location that the gold plates would be buried is the Hill Cumorah in New York..  After Moroni received the plates, he wandered for 36 years before he last wrote on the plates.  It wouldn't make much sense for Mormon to give the plates to Moroni, to make sure the plates were safe and get the plates away from the Lamanites, and then have Moroni wander for 36 years and then turn around and bury the plates in the original Hill Cumorah with the other archives since the Lamanites still continued to surround that same area.  

 

So there is the original Hill Cumorah and another Hill Cumorah in which the plates were deposited.

 

 6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

(Mormon 6:6)

 

 23 And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord.

(Morm. 4:23)

Clear to you, but not to everybody.

And this, of course.

[DragonLancer]

If one is to believe the prophets, from Joseph Smith on down, then the Heartland theory is the only option.  Everyone knows the Zelph, the white Lamanite warrior story,  who's grave was found in Illinois by Joseph Smith.  Here is what was written about the experience:

 

 

This is strong evidence for the heartland theory.  For FAIR or FARMS to say otherwise, they have to throw JS and other prophets under the bus.

 

I don't know how many times I've responded to this with the Hancock quote ignored by the Heartlanders:

 

On the way to Illinois River where we camped on the west side. In the morning many went to see the big mound about a mile below the crossing. I did not go on it but saw some bones that were brought back with a broken arrow. They were laid down by our camp. Joseph Smith addressing himself to Sylvester Smith and said, “This is what I told you and now I want to tell you that you may know what I meant. This land was called the land of desolation and Onandagus was the King and a good man was he. There in that mound did he bury his dead and did not dig holes as the people do now, but they brought their dirt and covered them until you see they have raised it to be about one hundred feet high. The last man buried was Zelf or Telf. He was a white Lamanite who fought with the people of Onedagus for freedom….” These words he said as the camp was moving off the mounds as near as I could learn he had told them something about the mound and got them to go and see it for themselves. I then remembered what he had said a few days before while passing many mounds on our way …” (Autobiography of Levi Hancock (1803-1882), pg. 27 - emphasis added)

 

 

 

This destroys the heartland theory because it pushes all the Land of Zarahemla and everything southward of Illinois into Mexico.  It is so clear yet the heartlanders continually ignore it.

[strappinglad]

There is a whole lot of country south of Illinois before one gets to Mexico , most of it quite non- desolate.

[nosmelone]

I have been advised that a review on that book "The Lost City of Zarahemla" that is forth coming by Matthew Roper if I recall that continues in the word analytics study that is quite contrary to what the author was hoping to convey.  It sounds like his research was quite shoddy and his conclusions are a far cry from final and conclusive.  I don't have a timeframe for this but I have been waiting patiently.  Even with that said I think Brant summed it up well when he stated, "I think anyone who tries to support a specific geography based on early statements is missing the eclectic nature of speculation."

[ERayR]

My view is that with all the possibilities about where it happened the Book of Mormon had to have happened.

[Kevin Christensen]

If one is to believe the prophets, from Joseph Smith on down, then the Heartland theory is the only option.  Everyone knows the Zelph, the white Lamanite warrior story,  who's grave was found in Illinois by Joseph Smith.  Here is what was written about the experience:

 

 

This is strong evidence for the heartland theory.  For FAIR or FARMS to say otherwise, they have to throw JS and other prophets under the bus.

Regarding the multiple sources for the Zelph story, see Kenneth Godfrey:

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2839&index=108

Click on "pdf" to see the Preliminary Report.

And a later study.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1398&index=11

Given the wobbly nature of the Zelph sources, the wealth of material in the Book of Mormon provided by eye-witness participants and chronically neglected by the Heartlanders, and the quickness of the Heartlanders to behave like Michael Palin in his dashing red suit, rather than as serious scholars, for Christmas I do hope I never have to hear anyone claim that anyone from FARMS or FAIR, notable hotbeds of defenders of the faith, is ever accused of "Throwing Joseph Smith under the bus," again. It's such a lame, boneheaded, irrelevant, and inappropriate saying, it's a mystery to me why anyone ever uses, let alone that it has become a cliche.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburgh, PA

Edited July 17, 2015 by Kevin Christensen

[KevinG]

Honestly, I feel the undercarriage of that bus is getting mighty crowded. Besides, it's, obvious that the land Northward is Alaska. It doesn't get more northward than that .

 

Nova Scotia you heretic!

[cinepro]

My view is that with all the possibilities about where it happened the Book of Mormon had to have happened.

It would seem that is what the Church wants you to think.

 

It never ceases to amaze me that Church leaders see at least one group of people spending thousands of hours and lots of money on a totally false geography and it isn't worth 30 seconds of revelation to get the issue clarified.  God used to reveal specific geographical information, so we know it can be (and has been) done.  Seriously, it takes about 15 seconds to read D&C 116.

 

So stick with it, because I suspect the day will come when people start to think that the two competing geographies are a good evidence against the historicity of The Book of Mormon.

[MDialogue]

The blog Brandt referred to is http://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com/

[KevinG]

It never ceases to amaze me that Church leaders see at least one group of people spending thousands of hours and lots of money on a totally false geography and it isn't worth 30 seconds of revelation to get the issue clarified. 

 

Because knowing if Zelph lived in Cleveland or Mexico City is soooo important for special witnesses of Christ to spend time divining.

[carbon dioxide]

 

The best source to go to regarding the geography is the Book of Mormon itself.

 

I also agree. Does the story fit the proposed setting.   I don't worry about the Zelph issue.  Zelph is not mentioned in the BOM and we know that many Nephitles left the main body and traveled to other areas.  If Zelph was among these other travelers and born later in these other areas, that would explain him being thousands of miles away from the Book of Mormon lands.   There are two cities named Jerusalem in the Book of Mormon.  Why can't there be two hill Cumorahs?   The New York hill is was just named by the 19th century Saints after the real Cumorah in the BOM lands.

[cinepro]

Because knowing if Zelph lived in Cleveland or Mexico City is soooo important for special witnesses of Christ to spend time divining.

 

If you read the Doctrine Covenants (and the Zelph story itself), it would seem the bar for Joseph Smith to receive revelation on something was set incredibly low.  I suspect the only reason we don't expect subsequent prophets to also receive revelation like that is because they don't.