33 replies to this topic

[Hamilton Porter]

I don't need evidence that Adam and Eve were real (they probably weren't), just that the the tradition didn't seep into Judaism from the Zoroastrians (and is available to Lehi). Thanks.

Preferably a book by a prestigious university press. Thanks.

[Ron Beron]

Hamilton Porter, on 04 June 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

I don't need evidence that Adam and Eve were real (they probably weren't), just that the the tradition didn't seep into Judaism from the Zoroastrians (and is available to Lehi). Thanks.

Preferably a book by a prestigious university press. Thanks.

The story of Eve is a lot more interesting since Adam, or at least the name, is fairly generic (meaning red man, which is a reference to the Mesopotamian texts which indicates mankind was created from the earth and the blood of a slain god.)  It is not entirely Zoroastrian, but goes further back in history with references in Mesopotamian texts.

[volgadon]

It can be very hard to split texts into pre and post-exilic, if for nothing more than multiple waves of redaction over different periods of time. The evidence is rarely conclusive either way. This discusses some of the parallels between the Balaam story and the Eden one. The Eden story might have become more prominent after the exile, as the captives would have reengaged their texts and traditions, searching for more light on how they got where they did and what would come of it. That, after all, is the essence of midrash. The Book of Mormon has plenty examples of that, such as Alma the elder's people viewing their community through the lens of Isaiah 52.  The Adam and Eve narrative would have lent itself well to post-exilic interpretation, especially if the text had been "corrected" somewhat.

[Robert F. Smith]

Hamilton Porter, on 04 June 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

I don't need evidence that Adam and Eve were real (they probably weren't), just that the the tradition didn't seep into Judaism from the Zoroastrians (and is available to Lehi). Thanks.

Preferably a book by a prestigious university press. Thanks.

You are clearly not interested in the account from the Brass Plates, which would have to be pre-Exilic.

However, T. Mettinger does describe the position of Waldemar Chrostowski, Ogrod Eden (Warsaw, 1996), 181-278, who maintained that the Eden Story of Gen 2-3 was composed during the Assyrian Exile, while the Eden motif of Ezekiel 28 was put together during the Babylonian Exile (but before Ezekiel's oracle against the King of Tyre).  Cf. also Job 15:7-8, and the central part of Ruth for what Edward Campbell saw as a dramatic reenactment of the Garden scene with Boaz (Adam) sleeping and awakening to find Ruth (Eve) offering herself as his mate (see his Anchor Bible translation-commentary on Ruth, 113).  Of course, scholars can place any of these books within the Babylonian Exile.

There are of course similar motifs already in earlier Mesopotamian literature: the myths of wise Adapa and Gilgamesh, for example.  Both deal with wisdom and immortality as "the ultimate divide between gods and humans," especially since exceedingly wise Uta-napishtim and his wife, who live at the mouth of the rivers, shall be like the gods (Gilgamesh XI 199-205) -- see T. Mettinger, The Eden Narrative (Eisenbrauns, 2007). 115, 117.  Mettinger also points out that in both Adapa and the Garden Narrative, "wisdom and immortality have a thematic function" as "divine prerogatives," 102-103, 107-108.

[BCSpace]

Quote

You are clearly not interested in the account from the Brass Plates

Or the Pearl of Great Price.  But for those critics who have no faith, it's nice to have a back up.

[David T]

BCSpace, on 05 June 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

Or the Pearl of Great Price.  But for those critics who have no faith, it's nice to have a back up.

Saying those who are suspicious of a pre-exilic origin for the Adam and Eve story "have no faith" is not accurate, or helpful.

[Hamilton Porter]

Robert F. Smith, on 05 June 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

You are clearly not interested in the account from the Brass Plates, which would have to be pre-Exilic.

However, T. Mettinger does describe the position of Waldemar Chrostowski, Ogrod Eden (Warsaw, 1996), 181-278, who maintained that the Eden Story of Gen 2-3 was composed during the Assyrian Exile, while the Eden motif of Ezekiel 28 was put together during the Babylonian Exile (but before Ezekiel's oracle against the King of Tyre).  Cf. also Job 15:7-8, and the central part of Ruth for what Edward Campbell saw as a dramatic reenactment of the Garden scene with Boaz (Adam) sleeping and awakening to find Ruth (Eve) offering herself as his mate (see his Anchor Bible translation-commentary on Ruth, 113).  Of course, scholars can place any of these books within the Babylonian Exile.

There are of course similar motifs already in earlier Mesopotamian literature: the myths of wise Adapa and Gilgamesh, for example.  Both deal with wisdom and immortality as "the ultimate divide between gods and humans," especially since exceedingly wise Uta-napishtim and his wife, who live at the mouth of the rivers, shall be like the gods (Gilgamesh XI 199-205) -- see T. Mettinger, The Eden Narrative (Eisenbrauns, 2007). 115, 117.  Mettinger also points out that in both Adapa and the Garden Narrative, "wisdom and immortality have a thematic function" as "divine prerogatives," 102-103, 107-108.

Thank you, too bad I can't read Polish. The Gilgamesh Epic does not have all people descending from a primal couple while the Zoroastrian myths do, so you can tell where my concern arises from. I will check out the Eisenbrauns book.

[Hamilton Porter]

volgadon, on 04 June 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

It can be very hard to split texts into pre and post-exilic, if for nothing more than multiple waves of redaction over different periods of time. The evidence is rarely conclusive either way. This discusses some of the parallels between the Balaam story and the Eden one. The Eden story might have become more prominent after the exile, as the captives would have reengaged their texts and traditions, searching for more light on how they got where they did and what would come of it. That, after all, is the essence of midrash. The Book of Mormon has plenty examples of that, such as Alma the elder's people viewing their community through the lens of Isaiah 52. The Adam and Eve narrative would have lent itself well to post-exilic interpretation, especially if the text had been "corrected" somewhat.

link?

[volgadon]

Hamilton Porter, on 05 June 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

link?

Sorry, I can be scatterbrained at times. http://books.google....-exilic&f=false

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Nibley speaks on the Egyptian parallels (cf. 1 Nephi 1:2 "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.") in his Lecture 7 on The Council:

Quote

It would seem that a lot more has survived than we supposed in Egypt [...] We were talking about the Shabako Stone [...]; it's such a very important writing. The latest study of it is by Zabkar who has said in the J.N.E.S., thirteenth volume, "One of the most important documents of the entire Egyptian literature, which originated at the very beginning of Egyptian history, is the document of the Memphite Theology."

We mentioned that the Shabako Stone was found by the French and brought to the British Museum way back in 1805. It has just been interpreted since the 1920s. But it is the most important document we have from all of English literature, as far as we can conceivably go back. [...] "The impact of the Memphite Theology was so fundamental that its effect on the Egyptian religious thought remained constant until the end of Egyptian religion." This was the dominant text. If there was a Bible, this would be it. This was their Genesis, their Torah.

"Unparalleled in the history of the ancient Orient as far as its cosmogenic significance is concerned, it deals not only with the creation, but it deals with the cosmogony." And, of course, this is our Pearl of Great Price, especially the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. They are both very strong on cosmogony, as you know -- Moses being a re-editing of Abraham, as we will see later. [...] "It traveled from century to century from one theological system to another. Its theme sounds from the first line of Genesis." We have it in our Genesis: Bereshit bara Adonai, etc.

(Joseph had it right, too, because he said it was The Council that met at the beginning.) That's what we are talking about, the Council here. "... from the first line of Genesis, from there on through the Old Testament and the latest period of Hebrew literature. It reaches the pages of the New Testament witnessing to what extent this conception of creative power of the Word of God persisted in the ancient Orient, becoming a universal theological theme."

It goes right on down into the New Testament. "While the Memphite Theology through the Old Testament prepared the consciousness of the religious world for John's logos doctrine about the manifestation and creative power of the Word of God, so the Amarna Theology sounded some themes which in the New Testament, especially in John's gospel, represent fundamental features of the relationship between the Father and the Son." [...]

There is much discussion about [certain] lines and what they mean. Who begot Atum in the beginning? It was Ptah. Atum is the big thing. At Heliopolis he is everything. It's very interesting. In the very old Coffin Texts, he is called Adamu, using the Canaanite ending u and also the soft d instead of t.

In fact, Lefébure, the famous French Egyptologist went to quite a great length to show that this is the same as Adam, and he obviously is Adam here. [On the possible identity of Atum with Adam, see E. Lefébure, "Le Cham et l'Adam égyptiens," Bibliotheque égyptologique 35 (1913): 16-21] So it says here, Atum who was begotten and who then became the father of the pesedj or the Great Council. The pesedj is always translated Ennead, but is it the Ennead? I notice how Sethe sums it up here. Ennead doesn't have to be nine or eight, or any particular number. It means the vast number. The numberless Council of the Gods is what it means. [...] There are the nine gods, but there are dozens of lists of them. Sometimes they will add one or take some off, or add five or six. Originally, half should be female and half male, with Ptah making the odd number, you see. It breaks down into couples such as Shu and Tefnut and Geb and Neith.

But first Atum. His name is a very important one. Rudolf Anthes has written several long articles and monographs about the name of Atum. It means "many," as we are told in Moses l:34. And, of course, it means "many" here. I notice that even Siegfried Lawrence, a very prejudiced character, says what it means is a gesammtheit -- a gathering, a compound, or a complex. It includes everything in itself, and you will see why. [...]

He has a companion, Amun's pallakida, his mate. That's a very interesting way of putting it, as Bonnet does. This was his companion, his helpmeet. This was Hathor, the woman who settled the land. The priestesses of the Atum temple were always called Hathors. That goes back, he thinks, to a tree cult because they have this Tree of Life business here.

In spite of any magic background, the creation was an act of mind. But at Heliopolis there was a real marriage we are told. Right where the rivers meet, this is Heliopolis. [...] It's the On of the Bible, and Unell meaning the stone pillars. It's the old megalithic foundation. It's very important in the New Testament. [...]

So he brought forth the first pair, which bringing together became the source of all life on earth. They were the "first flesh." But it is an interesting thing. He does not create, he begets. He is a father. He does not create; others do that. [...]

Now, [to address] the conflict between the patriarchy and matriarchy about which a lot has been written. This is dissolved in the very simple question, namely with this. Which one is it, the father or mother, who makes birth possible? You leave one of them out, and birth is impossible. It's a silly question.

Edited by JeremyOrbe-Smith, 05 June 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[BCSpace]

Quote

Or the Pearl of Great Price.  But for those critics who have no faith, it's nice to have a back up.

Quote

Saying those who are suspicious of a pre-exilic origin for the Adam and Eve story "have no faith" is not accurate, or helpful.

It's both by definition.  Heck, I freely admit my own weakness of faith in a desire to have more of this evidence from sources outside the LDS Church.

Edited by BCSpace, 05 June 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Hamilton Porter]

volgadon, on 05 June 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Sorry, I can be scatterbrained at times. http://books.google....-exilic&f=false

I meant support for this:

Quote

The Book of Mormon has plenty examples of that, such as Alma the elder's people viewing their community through the lens of Isaiah 52.

Edited by Hamilton Porter, 06 June 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[volgadon]

Hamilton Porter, on 06 June 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

I meant support for this:

Ah, there is no link yet. Thoughts that came to me in Sunday School. Mosiah 18 and the waters of Mormon is only the most obvious example.

[CASteinman]

Hamilton Porter, on 04 June 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

I don't need evidence that Adam and Eve were real (they probably weren't), just that the the tradition didn't seep into Judaism from the Zoroastrians (and is available to Lehi). Thanks.

Preferably a book by a prestigious university press. Thanks.

I am not sure I have it with me (I travel) but I I have a translation of Genesis by Stephen Mitchell who explains that the Creation story was a redaction by an editor "R" around the time of Ezra who wove accounts by two other writers "J" and "P" together.  He claimed that "P" wrote his account around 500 to 700 BC -- which would not be helpful to you, but that "J"'s account is from about 800 to 1000 BC.

I don't think it is a University Press book, but it is highly acclaimed by scholars.

[Hamilton Porter]

CASteinman, on 06 June 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

I am not sure I have it with me (I travel) but I I have a translation of Genesis by Stephen Mitchell who explains that the Creation story was a redaction by an editor "R" around the time of Ezra who wove accounts by two other writers "J" and "P" together.  He claimed that "P" wrote his account around 500 to 700 BC -- which would not be helpful to you, but that "J"'s account is from about 800 to 1000 BC.

I don't think it is a University Press book, but it is highly acclaimed by scholars.

That makes sense. The older J account mirrors the Enuma Elish more closely.

Edited by Hamilton Porter, 07 June 2012 - 06:30 AM.

[CASteinman]

Hamilton Porter, on 04 June 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

I don't need evidence that Adam and Eve were real (they probably weren't), j

Seems to me that if they were not real, the Gospel is not valid.

[Hamilton Porter]

CASteinman, on 07 June 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

Seems to me that if they were not real, the Gospel is not valid.

I disagree with that but thanks for the sources.

[David T]

BCSpace, on 05 June 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

It's both by definition.  Heck, I freely admit my own weakness of faith in a desire to have more of this evidence from sources outside the LDS Church.

This appears extremely hyperbolic to me. You say I have no faith, without qualification, if I don't accept one aspect of the traditional religious story as being an actual historical account? You don't believe its possible for someone to excercise faith in God, or even in the prophetic leadership of the Church while still rejecting the notion of the traditional Adam and Eve story as it stands as being a description of actual historical events?

Do you really equate, 'No faith in the historicity of the Adam and Eve Garden Story' with an unqualified 'No Faith' ? Or even 'weakness of faith'?

Edited by David T, 07 June 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[Ron Beron]

Hamilton Porter, on 04 June 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

I don't need evidence that Adam and Eve were real (they probably weren't), just that the the tradition didn't seep into Judaism from the Zoroastrians (and is available to Lehi). Thanks.

Preferably a book by a prestigious university press. Thanks.

More on this...you might want to look at the Mesopotamian legend of "Adapa and the Southwind Myth".

Quote

ADAPA AND THE FOOD OF LIFE
[from "Cuneiform Parallels to the Old Testament " by R.W. Rogers, 1912].


[Summary: Adapa, or perhaps Adamu, son of Ea, had recieved from his father, the god Ea, wisdom, but not eternal life. He was a semi-divine being and was the wise man and priest of the temple of Ea at Eridu, which he provided with the ritual bread and water. In the exercise of this duty he carried on fishing upon the Persian Gulf. When Adapa was fishing one day on a smooth sea, the south wind rose suddenly and overturned his boat, so that the was thrown into the sea. Angered by the mishap, he broke the wings of the south wind so that for seven days it could not blow the sea's coolness over the hot land. Anu calls Adapa to account for this misdeed, and his father Ea warns him as to what should befall him. He tells him how to fool Tammuz and Gishzida, who will meet him at the gate of heaven. Ea cautions him not to eat or drink anything in heaven, as Ea fears that the food and drink of death will be set before Adapa. However, the food and drink of eternal life are set before him instead, and Adapa's over-caution deprives him of immortality. He has to return to Earth instead.]

TABLET NO.1

He possessed intelligence . . . ,
His command like the command of Anu ...
He (Ea) granted him a wide ear to reveal the destiny of the land,
He granted him wisdom, but he did not grant him eternal life.
In those davs, in those years the wise man of Eridu,
Ea had created him as chief among men,
A wise man whose command none should oppose,
The prudent, the most wise among the Anunnaki was he,
Blameless, of clean hands, anointed, observer of the divine statutes,
With the bakers he made bread
With the bakers of Eridu, he made bread,
The food and the water for Eridu he made daily,
With his clean hands he prepared the table,
And without him the table was not cleared.
The ship he steered, fishing and hunting for Eridu he did.
Then Adapa of Eridu
While Ea, ... in the chamber, upon the bed.
Daily the closing of Eridu he attended to.
Upon the pure dam, the new moon dam) he embarked upon the ship,
The wind blew and his ship departed, With the oar, be steered his ship Upon the broad sea . . .

TABLET NO. 2
.................
The south wind .... when
He had driven me to the house of my lord, I said,
O South wind, on the way I shall to thee ... everything that,
Thy wing, will I break." As be spoke with his mouth,
The wing of the South wind was broken, seven davs
The South wind blew not upon the land. Anu
Called to his messenger Ilabrat:
Why has the South wind not blown upon the land for seven davs?
His messenger Ilabrat answered him: "My lord,
Adapa, the son of Ea, the wing of the South wind
Has broken."
When Anu heard these words
He cried, Help!" He ascended his throne,
"Let some one bring him,"
Likewise Ea, who knows the heaven. He roused him
... he caused him to wear. With a mourning garment
He garbed him, and gave him counsel
Saying: " Adapa, before the face of Anu the King thou art to go
... to heaven
When thou comest up, and when thou approachest the door of Anu,
At the door of Anu, Tammuz and Gishzida are standing,
"they will see thee, they will ask thee; 'Sir,'
For whose sake dost thou so appear, Adapa? For whom
Art thou clad in a mourning garment?' 'In our country two gods have vanished, therefore
Am I so.' 'Who are the two gods, who in the land
Have vanished?' 'Tammuz and Gishzida.' They will look at one another and
Be astonished. Good words
They will speak to Anu. A good countenance of Anu
They will show thee. When thou standest before Anu
Food of death they will set before thee,
Eat not. Water of death they will set before thee,
Drink not. Garments they will set before thee,
Put them on. Oil they will set before thee, anoint thyself.
The counsel that I have given thee, forget not. The words
Which I have spoken, hold fast." The messenger
Of Anu came: "Adapa has broken
The wing of the South wind. Bring him before me."
The road to Heaven he made him take, and to Heaven he ascended.
When he came to Heaven, when he approached the door of Anu,
At the door of Ann, Tammuz and Gisbzida are standing.
When they saw him, Adapa, they cried: " Help,
Sir, for whom dost thou so appear? Adapa,
For whom art thou clad in a mourning garment?"
In the country two gods have vanished; therefore am I clad
In mourning garments." "Who are the two gods, who
have vanished from the land?"
"Tammuz and Gishzida." They looked at one another and
Were astonished. When Adapa before Anu, the King,
Drew near, and Anu saw him, he cried:
" Come hither, Adapa. Why hast thou broken the wings
Of the South wind? " Adapa answered Ann: " My lord,
For the house of my lord in the midst of the sea,
I was catching fish. The sea was like a mirror,
The South wind blew, and capsized me.
To the house of my lord was I driven. In the anger of my heart,
I took heed." Tammuz and Gishzida
Answered ... "art thou." To Anu
They speak. He calmed himself, his heart was . . .
"Why has Ea revealed to impure mankind
The heart of heaven and earth? A heart
... has created within him, has made him a name?
What can we do with him? Food of life
Bring him, that be man, eat."Food of life
They brought him, but he ate not. Water of life
They brought him, but he drank not. Garments
They brought him. He clothed himself. Oil
They brought him. He anointed himself.
Anu looked at him; he wondered at him.
" Come, Adapa, why hast thou not eaten, not drunken?
Now thou shalt not live." ... men ...Ea, my lord
Said: "Eat not, drink not."
Take him and bring him back to his earth.
... looked upon him.

TABLET NO. 3
"When heard that
In the anger of his heart
His messenger he sent.
He who knows the heart of the great gods
............
To King Ea to come,
To him, he caused words to be borne.
... to him, to King Ea.
He sent a messenger
With a wide ear, knowing the heart of the great gods,
... of the heavens be fixed.
A soiled garment he made him wear,
With a mourning garment he clad him,
A word he spoke to him.
"Adapa, before the King Anu thou shalt go
Fail not the order, keep my word
When thou comest up to heaven, and approachest the door of Anu,
Tammuz and Gishzida at the door of Anu are standing.

[Robert F. Smith]

David T, on 07 June 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

This appears extremely hyperbolic to me. You say I have no faith, without qualification, if I don't accept one aspect of the traditional religious story as being an actual historical account? You don't believe its possible for someone to excercise faith in God, or even in the prophetic leadership of the Church while still rejecting the notion of the traditional Adam and Eve story as it stands as being a description of actual historical events?

Do you really equate, 'No faith in the historicity of the Adam and Eve Garden Story' with an unqualified 'No Faith' ? Or even 'weakness of faith'?

Don't worry yourself unnecessarily.  The Genesis Creation & Garden stories are not meant as history-writing or science writing, but as dramatic ritual and catechetical texts.  Most biblical scholars see them as temple texts (especially in the context of other such ancient Near Eastern accounts of creation & garden).  The Brethren have frequently spoken of them in the past as being "figurative," as here http://scottwoodward...rtsofstory.html  To insist that they are actual historical accounts is a category mistake.

See Manfried Dietrich, “Das biblische Paradies und der babylonische Tempelgarten,” in B. Janowski & Beate Ego, eds., Das biblische Weltbild und seine altorientalischen Kontexte (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2001), 281-323.

Edited by Robert F. Smith, 08 June 2012 - 03:48 AM.