Is Sola Fide Consistent With Mormonism?

[Cobalt-70]

Mormons are generally thought of as being heavily on the "works" side of the faith versus works equation. However, I think that on a closer look, the Mormon view of salvation is not necessarily as different from that of Protestantism as most people think. One example is the Protestant doctrine of sola fide, which most Mormons instinctively disagree with when they first hear about. Sola fide is the doctrine that we are justified by our faith, rather than by the weight of our good acts.

Mormons assume this means that works are not important for salvation. However, that is not actually what sola fide means. Protestants believe that works are a natural consequence of faith, and that anyone who does not do good works does not actually have faith. A person cannot be saved without good works, because if they don't do good works, then they never actually had faith--but it is the faith that justifies them, not the works. I think this view is possibly consistent with Mormonism, particularly the late early Mormonism expressed in the King Follett sermon. In that sermon, Smith stated that all will eventually be saved, including the most wicked among us, except for the sons of Perdition. Smith said, "So long as a man will not give consent and heed to the commandments, he

must abide without salvation. When he consents to obey the Gospel, whether alive or dead, he is saved." For those who have died, it is the moment of consent at which they are saved. To "obey the Gospel" is part of it, and will naturally follow as they are purified from their sinful nature, but what saves them is their acceptance of Jesus and his Gospel. This sounds an awful lot like sola fide.

It's easy to forget that in Mormon theology, salvation is different from exaltation, which is a gradual process that requires the acquisition of knowledge and obedience to Celestial laws. Exaltation would very roughly correspond to the Methodist "second grace," that is a concern only of those who have been justified through their faith. The concern of Mormons today, which drives them to try to perfect themselves and become holy in the sight of God, is their exaltation, not their salvation. A Mormon who does not do good works in this life does not have true faith, and thus will have to wait until the next life for her salvation. But a Mormon who has true faith, though she is imperfect, is already saved (unless she is a son of Perdition); however, the degree of her exaltation is in proportion to the degree of her holiness.

[Calm]

One example is the Protestant doctrine of sola fide, which most Mormons instinctively disagree with when they first hear about.

My experience is more often the nonLDS not allowing that LDS accept it as much as we do, insisting that we believe works save us, not the grace of God.

[Anakin7]

This has been an on going battle.war for hundreds of years now in relation of the faith/works issue. Perhaps we can start here : http://www.christian-history.org/not-by-faith-alone.html

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[thesometimesaint]

Two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.

[Cobalt-70]

My experience is more often the nonLDS not allowing that LDS accept it as much as we do, insisting that we believe works save us, not the grace of God.

I think Mormons are quicker to say that we are saved by the grace of Jesus, but usually they say we are saved by "grace, after all that we can do." That's not quite sola fide, and that's not quite what Joseph Smith taught. To be "saved" under Mormon theology, you don't have to do anything except to commit to follow Jesus in this life or the afterlife. It is exaltation that requires that we perfect ourselves; salvation simply means that Jesus forgives our sins and admits us to heavenly glory.

[altersteve]

Evangelicals claim that Latter-day Saints believe that works save us, that we can save ourselves, but this is NOT true. We're really pretty much saying almost the same thing.

[thesometimesaint]

Cobalt-70:

While there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. Even if we we do good constantly we would still be considered unprofitable, and unwise servants. However God doesn't expect us to be bumps on a log. He expects to be obeyed. To fight the good fight, to run the good race. To devote our talents, abilities, our strengths, everything we possess or will possess to the building up of Gods' Kingdom.

To be saved from physical death involves nothing more than being born on this planet. To be saved from Hell requires us to do more than just believe(The devils believe and tremble). The LDS do not believe in one Heaven where everyone goes after death. But that we will be judged by our works, and recieve the Glory that corresponds to those works.

[Cobalt-70]

To be saved from physical death involves nothing more than being born on this planet. To be saved from Hell requires us to do more than just believe(The devils believe and tremble). The LDS do not believe in one Heaven where everyone goes after death. But that we will be judged by our works, and recieve the Glory that corresponds to those works.

That's the idea that the better your works, the larger your heavenly mansion will be. But salvation itself--getting any mansion at all--has nothing to do with works. Someone with absolutely no good works still gets a mansion if he ultimately has genuine faith in Jesus. Even the one with the smallest mansion has still been saved by the grace of Jesus, because in the end, according to Mormon theology, "every tongue shall confess" Jesus and be saved. In other words, in the King Follett sermon, Smith said that God waits to save them until they make that faithful commitment to follow Jesus in the afterlife. And yes, I think that Protestant traditions pretty much universally agree with Mormons that faith is more than just belief. Sons of Perdition believe, according to Smith, but have no faith and therefore are the only ones not saved.

[Mudcat]

Mormons assume this means that works are not important for salvation. However, that is not actually what sola fide means. Protestants believe that works are a natural consequence of faith, and that anyone who does not do good works does not actually have faith. A person cannot be saved without good works, because if they don't do good works, then they never actually had faith--but it is the faith that justifies them, not the works. I think this view is possibly consistent with Mormonism, particularly the late early Mormonism expressed in the King Follett sermon. In that sermon, Smith stated that all will eventually be saved, including the most wicked among us, except for the sons of Perdition. Smith said, "So long as a man will not give consent and heed to the commandments, he

must abide without salvation. When he consents to obey the Gospel, whether alive or dead, he is saved." For those who have died, it is the moment of consent at which they are saved. To "obey the Gospel" is part of it, and will naturally follow as they are purified from their sinful nature, but what saves them is their acceptance of Jesus and his Gospel. This sounds an awful lot like sola fide.

Hi Cobalt, bold mine, quite as cut and dried an issue, though I think your summation would be correct for the a great number of Protestants. Methodists for one, do view this a bit differently though. In a sense, they would be the most common association with the LDS, on this view.

The issue is more complex, than sola fide. The notion by many Protestants is tied to the doctrine of OSAS. Those who adhere to that would simply say that a lack of works meant a disingenuous initial faith, thus the person never truly was a believer.. or like you have said good works are a result of faith. However, Methodists in general, don't adhere to that doctrine. Rather they believe salvation can be lost and it changes the scope of the situation of sola fide, I think in this respect LDS and some Protestant doctrine shadow each other to a degree.

Though I typically identify myself as a member of a Southern Baptist church, this is one are where I differ...

However, I don't agree with Methodist views on the matter, nor given LDS readmittance of excommunicated members who meet certain critera. But I do find a common thread in that fact that we can willfully give up what we have accepted from God.

[BCSpace]

Sola fide is the doctrine that we are justified by our faith, rather than by the weight of our good acts.

Mormons assume this means that works are not important for salvation. However, that is not actually what sola fide means. Protestants believe that works are a natural consequence of faith, and that anyone who does not do good works does not actually have faith.

LDS believe also that it works the other way around; that works produce faith and this is what the Bible teaches (John 7:17 for example) and that is one reason why sola fide is incompatible with the Bible and LDS doctrine.

[Mudcat]

LDS believe also that it works the other way around; that works produce faith and this is what the Bible teaches (John 7:17 for example) and that is one reason why sola fide is incompatible with the Bible and LDS doctrine.

I don't think the verse you sited teaches that given the chapters context.

But even in isolation of the verse, I don't think such is the case either.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Superficially, a person who does God's will, will also know God's doctrine. But for a person to do God's will their is an underlying presumption that they know what God's will is. To know what God's will would require belief in God, ergo faith in God in some respect.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Mudcat

[Maidservant]

I think Mormons are quicker to say that we are saved by the grace of Jesus, but usually they say we are saved by "grace, after all that we can do." That's not quite sola fide, and that's not quite what Joseph Smith taught. To be "saved" under Mormon theology, you don't have to do anything except to commit to follow Jesus in this life or the afterlife. It is exaltation that requires that we perfect ourselves; salvation simply means that Jesus forgives our sins and admits us to heavenly glory.

You don't even have to do that (commit to follow Jesus). At least not while on earth. The telestial kingdom theologically speaking is for everyone.

I think part of the problem is that the idea of both faith and of works has shifted in concept in both evangelical and LDS.

Most of the time when we discuss faith versus works nowadays, we are talking about the "work" of keeping the commandments.

But I think (could be wrong) earlier challenges to "works" were actually challenges to sacraments (i.e. Roman Catholic sacraments that were being challenged as false salvation) . . . that sacraments (=works) could not save you if you did not have faith ( = keeping the commandments). Faith did not mean consent, or mental conviction, it MEANT living (=action, keeping the commandments) (and that is also how Paul means it, he chose that word precisely for its dynamic connotation of living).

Of course, LDS theology are full of sacraments as well, and the efficacy and necessity of these for salvation . . . progressing in our covenants of baptism and other covenants; where LDS maintain the necessity of ordinances, other Christians may not believe on this but stick with the consent/grace/faith idea and/or the faith/work/living/keeping commandments idea . . . but no sacrament (works) needed. EXCEPT the sacrament of "confessing Jesus" (I probably got that wrong, please correct me) which is interesting, because then we are right back to needing only a sacrament but no faith/living BUT . . . that is not really how it is either, as has already been explained better by others that we are all closer in our views that we sometimes fight about, that we all believe that we LIVE (do) by FAITH (or from faith, or however best to say it).

So point being is that we've confused the whole original argument anyway, and no longer even know what we're fighting about.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Maidservant

[Cobalt-70]

You don't even have to do that (commit to follow Jesus). At least not while on earth. The telestial kingdom theologically speaking is for everyone.

According to Smith, they do have to commit to follow Jesus before they are saved in the afterlife ("every tongue will confess.."). So nobody enters the heavenly kingdoms until they are saved by faith.

[Cobalt-70]

The issue is more complex, than sola fide. The notion by many Protestants is tied to the doctrine of OSAS. Those who adhere to that would simply say that a lack of works meant a disingenuous initial faith, thus the person never truly was a believer.. or like you have said good works are a result of faith. However, Methodists in general, don't adhere to that doctrine. Rather they believe salvation can be lost and it changes the scope of the situation of sola fide, I think in this respect LDS and some Protestant doctrine shadow each other to a degree.

Thanks for the clarification. The OSAS (once saved, always saved) issue has lesser importance in universalist Mormonism than in most other faiths, given that it teaches all will be saved except those who commit the unpardonable sin. But I think it does come into play. I think there are two parts to it: (1) in the afterlife, OSAS applies, because it is impossible to commit the unpardonable sin in the afterlife according to Smith's King Follett sermon. (2) in mortal life, I think OSAS could not apply consistent with Mormonism because it is always possible in mortality to commit the unpardonable sin after developing a true faith in Christ.

[thesometimesaint]

Cobalt-70:

Incorrect. The Three Degrees of Glory are described in the Bible. You know the Glory of the Sun, the Moon and the Stars. Also the Parable of the Talents. Also "In as much as men do good works they shall in no wise lose their reward". The Bible is replete with such examples.

Incorrect. Faith is the first requirement of the Gospel. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven". Matt7:21

Incorrect: "Faith without works is dead being alone". "Show me your faith and I'll show you my works" Also See Parable of the Sheep and Goats.

Incorrect: "Even the Devils believe and tremble"." If salt loses its savor it is good for nothing and is cast out".

Incorrect. "God is mighty to save", but we still must do our part. God will force no man the Heaven

Incorrect: "Do not procrastinate the day of your repentance". If we wait until we are dead to repent. It is ever lastingly too late. "Now is the time for men to prepare to meet God".

.

As LDS believe that only those who had no opportunity to learn of Jesus the Christ through his Restored Gospel in this life will have that opportunity in the next.There is NO Second Chance in Heaven. "God is no respector of persons".

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". We are all saved from physical death. Where we end up is up too us.

All of my quotes are from the Bible. It would appear that it is Protestant Christianity is still in Apostacy and growing further from the teachings in the Bible.

Edited October 6, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[CV75]

Smith stated that all will eventually be saved, including the most wicked among us, except for the sons of Perdition. Smith said, "So long as a man will not give consent and heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. When he consents to obey the Gospel, whether alive or dead, he is saved."

I think all are saved in that they inherit a kingdom of glory, no matter how faint it is. Even those in the lowest kingdom possess some fundamentally primal element of faith in Christ, even if it is less than “a desire to believe (Alma 32:27)” because they will eventually (and I believe voluntarily) “bow … and …confess… that He is God... (Mosiah 27:31).” D&C 76: 109-111 supports this.

It is interesting to me that only those with resurrected bodies can bow and confess to God at the Judgment. It seems that anyone else (those with “anti-faith”) would be cast into outer darkness with the evil spirits.

This tells me that the wicked in the telestial kingdom have had to have exercised (whether in this life or the after-life spirit world) at least sufficient faith in Christ to desire resurrection and a mansion, and not outer darkness.

[LeSellers]

One of the serious misunderstandings in re: faith v. works is that there are (at least) two different kinds of "work", and typically both sides conflate the two.

The first "work" is good deeds". Both sides agree that these are the natural outgrowth of true conversion. But we spend a lot of times arguing over the "value" of these good works in salvation when, in fact, they have nothing to do with the question at all. A newly converted man leaves the chapel following his (baptism/confirmation) [altar call] and gets hit by a bus, dies immediately, and goes to judgment. He will, in both views, be "saved". [However, some Evangelicals go so far as to say that doing good deeds on purpose, i.e., with the goal in mind to do them, even for the glory of God, is an affront to God because they (the works) are an effort to "earn" one's salvation and demonstrate a severe lack of faith in Christ's Atonement and grace.]

The second kind of "work" encompasses Priesthood ordinances: baptism, confirmation/bestowing the Gift of the Holy Ghost, etc. We Saints know that baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation, Protestants (and, to a lesser degree, and only in some cases, Catholics) believe that baptism is only an outward sign of accepting Christ, that it is most definitively not a requirement for salvation at all.

It is the second on which our energies should be focused. Either baptism (for instance) is necessary or it is not. There is no third option (in spite of the Catholic opinion regarding "baptism of desire"). Then, that baptism must be performed by a legitimate Priesthood holder or it can be by anyone; again, there is no reasonable third alternative, no matter what Catholics claim in regards to baptism in emergencies. These assume third choices undermine the whole premise of baptism or priesthood. They also ignore 1 Cor 15:29, but we can expect little else from an apostate world.

"Sola fede" is unbiblical. (In fact, "sola scriptura" is equally unbiblical, but that's a new topic.) It is not consistent with "Mormonism". This does not mean that we Saints reject faith: it's not an all-or-nothing choice. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is, after all, the first principle of the Gospel. But it is no the only principle. And, even if it were, that would not mean there are no ordinances. The two concepts work in tandem to move us toward God and His kingdom.

Lehi

[Doctrine 612]

Just a thought Saved by grace means to worship god, saved by works means to follow god, saved by grace after all we can do means we worship god and follow his teachings to become like him.

the after all we can do statment is something I like, it tells me that as long as iam moving forward to becoming a better person iam ok, it does not mean saved by grace after we are perfect.

[Anakin7]

From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT TEMPLE Archive - http://www.bible-researcher.com/grace.html

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited October 6, 2011 by Anakin7

[Cobalt-70]

As LDS believe that only those who had no opportunity to learn of Jesus the Christ through his Restored Gospel in this life will have that opportunity in the next.There is NO Second Chance in Heaven. "God is no respector of persons".

Do you have an explanation, then, for Joseph Smith's statement, "Hence, the salvation of the Savior Jesus Christ was wrought

out for all men to triumph over the works of the devil; if the plan did not catch them in one place, it would in another." (King Follett sermon). Or do you disagree with Smith on this point?

[Cobalt-70]

Just a thought Saved by grace means to worship god, saved by works means to follow god, saved by grace after all we can do means we worship god and follow his teachings to become like him.

the after all we can do statment is something I like, it tells me that as long as iam moving forward to becoming a better person iam ok, it does not mean saved by grace after we are perfect.

I think "saved by grace" is a little bit different than sola fide. I know a lot more Mormons who are willing to agree that we are saved by the grace of Jesus, but they add on the unscriptural "after all we can do" part, which is not sola fide. Rather, it is the theory that Jesus requires at least a certain amount of works as a demonstration that one is worthy of justification by his grace. The sola fide view would be slightly different--that Jesus requires only faith in him before admitting someone to one of the heavenly kingdoms, but that faith not followed by works is a dead faith.

Moreover, I think that when Mormons say that we are "saved by grace after all that we can do," I don't think they are usually speaking about salvation, but are instead speaking about exaltation, which also requires the grace of Jesus, but requires a long process of sanctification as well.

I think that Joseph Smith was clear that it is consent to follow Jesus (either in this life or the next) that is the requirement for eventual salvation in one of the kingdoms of glory. If you are still alive when you consent to follow Jesus, then you can still "fall from grace" (D&C 20:32) and then, presuming you have not committed the unpardonable sin, you will still eventually renew your faith in the afterlife and receive a heavenly glory. However, in the afterlife, according to what Smith is apparently saying in the King Follett sermon, once you consent to follow Christ in the afterlife you are saved and cannot fall, because at that point you are incapable of committing the unpardonable sin.

[Cobalt-70]

It is the second on which our energies should be focused. Either baptism (for instance) is necessary or it is not. There is no third option (in spite of the Catholic opinion regarding "baptism of desire"). Then, that baptism must be performed by a legitimate Priesthood holder or it can be by anyone; again, there is no reasonable third alternative, no matter what Catholics claim in regards to baptism in emergencies. These assume third choices undermine the whole premise of baptism or priesthood. They also ignore 1 Cor 15:29, but we can expect little else from an apostate world.

In Mormonism, baptism in this life is not necessary for salvation. It is also not required in the afterlife, because spirits themselves cannot be baptized. Rather, in the afterlife, all that is required is consent to baptism by a proxy. It is, therefore, an act of faith, and not a work.

[CV75]

In Mormonism, baptism in this life is not necessary for salvation. It is also not required in the afterlife, because spirits themselves cannot be baptized. Rather, in the afterlife, all that is required is consent to baptism by a proxy. It is, therefore, an act of faith, and not a work.

I have an idea that those who inherit even the lowest of kingdoms had a moment or moments in their mortal lives when they had faith that resulted in some good work. Even if they responded positively to the Light of Christ even once, this would qualify as a work reflecting faith. Even if they never heard of Christ in this life, they would recognize Him as the Source of that light in the spirit world as they prepare to bow and confess at the Judgment. Some may even accept in faith the ordinances performed in their behalf in the temples, as if they had done them themselves (God often recognizes intent in this life, and counts it toward a good work, by virtue of His atonement and possibly by virtue of the good works yet to be done by said individuals). I would go so far as to say that any amount of good, no matter how small, in this life is the stimulus for their recognizing and accepting and doing good (even if by proxy) in the next life. I think the eternal proxy principle makes these works valid as having done them themselves. all things are ultimately spiritual, anyway.

[seriously honestly]

My experience is more often the nonLDS not allowing that LDS accept it as much as we do, insisting that we believe works save us, not the grace of God.

That could stems from where "saved" or "salvation" refers to us ending up according to both parties. When a nonLDS uses either word, it's similar to what and where exaltation would be in Mormonism, but without works being the determining factor to get us there. When an LDS member uses them, it's thought of as a general salvation that all men will receive for keeping their first estate (not including the SoP, of course) before works come into play to determine which level of heaven you are received into.

Edited October 7, 2011 by seriously honestly

[Calm]

That could stems from where "saved" or "salvation" refers to us ending up according to both parties. When a nonLDS uses either word, it's similar to what and where exaltation would be in Mormonism, but without works being the determining factor to get us there. When an LDS member uses them, it's thought of as a general salvation that all men will receive for keeping their first estate (not including the SoP, of course) before works come into play to determine which level of heaven you are received into.

But nonLDS in my experience often talk about "mansions" in heaven in much the same way we talk about the different kingdoms, and these mansions are a result of one's good works.

just for fun: http://www.raptureready.com/photo/mansions/mansions.html