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New Study Re: Harmful Effects of Trans Surgery

smac97

By smac97
in General Discussions

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smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
2 minutes ago, Calm said:
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Quote

 

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Asking is fine.  Demanding is not.  Using the force of law is not.

So preventing by law someone from having surgery or other medical interventions when they want it is wrong?

 

I was speaking of compelled speech, not elective medical procedures.

Why should they be treated differently?  Agency is agency, isn’t it?

I think the law should not be used to compel speech, and/or to punish Free Speech.  This is an affront to the First Amendment.

Regulating elective medical procedures is, in the main, not a constitutional issue, and instead falls under the rubric of the Tenth Amendment and its delegation of the police power.  As I noted previously: "I think the State (at the state, not federal, level) can have a legitimate interest in regulating the practice of medicine in its jurisdiction, particularly to mitigate the foregoing concerns."  

Thanks,

-Smac

1
ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

UN study reveals transgender athletes have won nearly 900 medals in women's competitions

You really should read what it actually says -

"11. Policies implemented by international federations and national governing
bodies, along with national legislation in some countries, allow males who identify
as women to compete in female sports categories. In other cases, this practice is not
explicitly prohibited and is thus tolerated in practice. The replacement of the female
sports category with a mixed-sex category has resulted in an increasing number of
female athletes losing opportunities, including medals, when competing against
males. According to information received, by 30 March 2024, over 600 female
athletes in more than 400 competitions have lost more than 890 medals in 29 different
sports." (emphasis added)

 

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Compelled speech is a dangerous thing.  I am glad the risk of it is being reduced.

Who, specifically, has attempted to compel your speech on this issue? I don't mean internet arguments. I mean, real life, interacting with someone where you felt like someone tried to "compel" your speech.

Or, could it be that this is another in a long line of your slippery-slope panics?

 

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Ah.  So you were just resorting to the "Fallacy of Relative Privation," then.

Your compatriots have been free in imputing all sorts of terrible sentiments onto me, so I surmised you were doing the same.  I stand corrected, sort of.

Meh, fallacy or not, you brought in "calculus," I showed the equation was out of balance. I'm sure you'll live through the tragedy of it all.

 

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Your compatriots have been free in imputing all sorts of terrible sentiments onto me, so I surmised you were doing the same.  I stand corrected, sort of.

I have "compatriots"? That's news to me. Do you mean The Nehor and Benjamin McGuire? I mean, given I'm an apostate, I can't imagine they love you lumping them in with me.

 

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Compelled speech is a dangerous thing.  I am glad we have the First Amendment to protect against such things.  Our friends in Canada and Europe are facing real threats to their individual liberties.

[must resist desire to point out who is making these people not our "friends"...]

 

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't understand what you are saying here.

If you were to interact with an opposing attorney who you suspected was not born female, but identifies as a woman, and your sole suspicion is based on your perception that the person's jaw was too large, would you demand some sort of test before you'd be willing to call them she/her? It's a hypothetical.

 

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Posting on a message board is not reasonably compared to "dying on a hill."

It's a turn of phrase, Spencer. Don't be so pedantic.

Edited by ttribe
smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
9 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you believe something is false, but you don’t have the right info to convince others it is false, are you justified using false info (made up but you think it’s right or outright lying or whatever) to try and demonstrate you are right?

Still not clear, but I'll go with "No."

We should be honest and clear in our communications.  Using falsehoods to advance one's position is not good.  This seems pretty axiomatic, so much so that I was not sure if you were asking about it.

Thanks,

-Smac

1
Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted
59 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, the big threat right now is transgender authoritarian rule.

I mean, the President is threatening to deport and/or jail protesting college students but the real danger to freedom of expression or speech is the great pronoun menace.

Meanwhile the current number of people in jail for using incorrect pronouns is *checks notes* still zero.

So much fluff compared to what we're all facing now as a country and world.

1
ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think the law should not be used to compel speech, and/or to punish Free Speech.  This is an affront to the First Amendment.

Regulating elective medical procedures is, in the main, not a constitutional issue, and instead falls under the rubric of the Tenth Amendment and its delegation of the police power.  As I noted previously: "I think the State (at the state, not federal, level) can have a legitimate interest in regulating the practice of medicine in its jurisdiction, particularly to mitigate the foregoing concerns."  

Thanks,

-Smac

Is this "an affront to the First Amendment"? https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-federal-funding-will-stop-colleges-schools-allowing-illegal-protests-2025-03-04/

3
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, smac97 said:

UN study reveals transgender athletes have won nearly 900 medals in women's competitions

Okay, that UN “study” was a huge joke. It was some data collection with delusions of grandeur.

https://emiliabeckers.substack.com/p/the-truth-behind-the-claimed-920

Falsified data, no independent check on submitted data, and the person who submitted it has a “colorful” history when it comes to telling the truth.

 

Fact-check your propaganda! Put a filter in place to check things. Especially when they tell you what you want to hear.

1
smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 minute ago, ttribe said:

Who, specifically, has attempted to compel your speech on this issue?

Nobody.  That is not to say, though, that there have not been efforts to compel speech in this context.  A threat to some other person's First Amendment rights is a threat to everyone's First Amendment rights.

1 minute ago, ttribe said:
Quote

Ah.  So you were just resorting to the "Fallacy of Relative Privation," then.

Your compatriots have been free in imputing all sorts of terrible sentiments onto me, so I surmised you were doing the same.  I stand corrected, sort of.

Meh, fallacy or not,

Yes, I think your reasoning is logically fallacious.

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

your brought in "calculus," I showed the equation was out of balance. I'm sure you'll live through the tragedy of it all.

Appeal to ridicule.  Another logical fallacy.

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

If you were to interact with an opposing attorney who you suspected was not born female, but identifies as a woman, and your sole suspicion is based on your perception that the person's jaw was too large, would you demand some sort of test before you'd be willing to call them she/her? It's a hypothetical.

No.

1 minute ago, ttribe said:
Quote

Posting on a message board is not reasonably compared to "dying on a hill."

It's a turn of phrase, Spencer. Don't be so pedantic.

Okay.  Don't be so histrionic in your commentary.

Thanks,

-Smac

1
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

You really should read what it actually says -

"11. Policies implemented by international federations and national governing
bodies, along with national legislation in some countries, allow males who identify
as women to compete in female sports categories. In other cases, this practice is not
explicitly prohibited and is thus tolerated in practice. The replacement of the female
sports category with a mixed-sex category has resulted in an increasing number of
female athletes losing opportunities, including medals, when competing against
males. According to information received, by 30 March 2024, over 600 female
athletes in more than 400 competitions have lost more than 890 medals in 29 different
sports." (emphasis added)

 

Didn’t you post this correction before when Smac? used this data incorrectly?

Edited by Calm
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So much fluff compared to what we're all facing now as a country and world.

Focusing people on targeting already marginalized populations is very deliberate. It lets those in power get away with more when their followers are focused on an imaginary threat they can promote as an existential one. It is why so many are still blind to all the strange and incredible things happening right now that even a decade ago would have prompted a huge backlash.

4
ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Calm said:

Didn’t you post this correction before when Smac? used this data incorrectly?

No, but if someone else did, they should be careful lest they get labeled as a "compatriot" of an apostate like me.

1
ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Nobody.  That is not to say, though, that there have not been efforts to compel speech in this context.  A threat to some other person's First Amendment rights is a threat to everyone's First Amendment rights.

And yet, you are in no danger of this happening any time soon.

 

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes, I think your reasoning is logically fallacious.

So?

 

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Appeal to ridicule.  Another logical fallacy.

So?

 

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No.

And yet you don't see it as inherently rude to call that person "Mister" instead of "Miss"?

 

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay.  Don't be so histrionic in your commentary.

447042072_IronyMeter.jpg.041f4aee36567b18659911abd52791a6.jpg

1
smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:
Quote

 

Sexualizing and grooming little kids is "a great evil."  I endorse that statement.

 

Again, that is not grooming.

I think we'll just need to disagree about this.  I think exposing children to highly sexualized behavior in public venues, such as parades, drag shows, etc., is sexualizing and grooming children.  I find that to be terrible, even evil.

Your approach to this issue reminds me of a clip from Family Guy:

This clip is also worth a watch:

The key parts (from the performer) :

Quote

Interviewer: You don't perform in front of children, do you?

Katy: No.  Nor would I.  {} If I was performing and I saw a child, I would walk out.  

Interviewer: So why do these drag queens keep foisting these performances on children?

Katy: ... I've gone against heterosexual parents, saying 'This is all your fault.  You can't complain when it's your own kind that is actually creating these events and letting them go on.'

Interviewer: ... What do {heterosexual parents} say when you ask 'Why the heck are you booking drag queens for your young kids?'

Katy: They think they're being inclusive.  They think their teaching them some kind of valuable lesson.  And I've asked them 'What is the lesson to be learned to see a man dressed up, wearing a wig, and being sexual in front of your child?  We used to arrest men like that.'

Yes, we did.  And do.

31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is also not even sexualizing little kids.

Dallas Club Investigated After Drag Show for Kids

Quote

Texas state authorities have launched an investigation into a Dallas club that hosted a highly publicized drag show that invited children to participate.

Texas Comptroller Glenn Hegar announced on August 5 that his office would look into potential code violations by the Oaklawn area club Mr. Misster after the club hosted an event titled “Drag the Kids to Pride.”

“Like many Texas parents, I was disturbed by the recent images showing children participating in a drag show in the Dallas area, including one image of a child placing money in a performer’s undergarment,” Hegar noted.
...

The “Drag the Kids to Pride” event in question was held on June 4 at a bar named Mr. Misster in Dallas’ “Gayborhood,” as reported by The Dallas Express.

As adults dressed in drag guided young children down the runway, onlookers cheered and tipped the performers. Decorating the building were signs pronouncing “it’s not gonna lick itself” and “I licked it so it’s mine.”

A still from the event:

58716085-10887159-Three_children_on_stag

This sure seems pretty sexualized.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
15 minutes ago, ttribe said:

And yet, you are in no danger of this happening any time soon.

Because I am in America, yes.  Others are not so fortunate.

15 minutes ago, ttribe said:

So?

So?

Logical fallacies do not advance your argument.  

15 minutes ago, ttribe said:
Quote
Quote

If you were to interact with an opposing attorney who you suspected was not born female, but identifies as a woman, and your sole suspicion is based on your perception that the person's jaw was too large, would you demand some sort of test before you'd be willing to call them she/her? It's a hypothetical.

No.

And yet you don't see it as inherently rude to call that person "Mister" instead of "Miss"?

I'm generally not interested in second-guessing a person's sex, even when someone goes out of their way to obfuscate it.  So I would generally refer to a person by a pronouns that conform to how they are presenting themselves.  In my view, this would not be a matter of rudeness, but of disinterest.

It is the compelled stuff that I find more problematic.

Thanks,

-Smac

1
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Still not clear, but I'll go with "No."

We should be honest and clear in our communications.  Using falsehoods to advance one's position is not good.  This seems pretty axiomatic, so much so that I was not sure if you were asking about it.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yes, I think it is pretty axiomatic as well.  And I assume you are a basically honest person.  I am trying to clarify your thought process for myself, so taking things a step at a time.

I am sorry though, but something has impinged on my ability to communicate so will return to this later if possible.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, ttribe said:

No, but if someone else did, they should be careful lest they get labeled as a "compatriot" of an apostate like me.

I knew the mixed group issue about the claim and I can only think I would encounter it here, but maybe I saw it elsewhere.

1
smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
31 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Is this "an affront to the First Amendment"? https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-federal-funding-will-stop-colleges-schools-allowing-illegal-protests-2025-03-04/

I'm generally attempting to stay away from explicitly "political" commentary.

Illegal protests are not covered by the First Amendment because, well, they are "illegal."  Legal protests, on the other hand, are just fine, and therefore not an affront to the First Amendment.  

The State's authority to enforce appropriate "time, place and manner" restrictions is well-settled law.  I would disagree with and oppose any infringement on these well-settled principles.

Beyond this statement of the law, I decline to address the specifics of the above article.

Thanks,

-Smac

rpn Grand Master

rpn

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Stop spreading lies. Stop promoting hatred. Stop trying to hurt people I care about. If doing those things is “gravity and decorum” to you then you are doing it wrong.

I can tell you feel strongly about this.   But my takeaway from what I read is that increased stressed could be related to the patients expectation that surgery would fix what they were feeling/thinking/struggling with, not necessarily that they were unhappy with the surgery itself.     And if that is the case, any despair would be that they didn't see a reduction of their stress nor an increase in their acceptance comfort with their body or ___________.  

It surely is a challenging topic, without any name calling.

2
ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm generally attempting to stay away from explicitly "political" commentary.

Illegal protests are not covered by the First Amendment because, well, they are "illegal."  Legal protests, on the other hand, are just fine, and therefore not an affront to the First Amendment.  

The State's authority to enforce appropriate "time, place and manner" restrictions is well-settled law.  I would disagree with and oppose any infringement on these well-settled principles.

Beyond this statement of the law, I decline to address the specifics of the above article.

Thanks,

-Smac

You do realize that "illegal" was not actually defined, right?

smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Okay, that UN “study” was a huge joke. It was some data collection with delusions of grandeur.

https://emiliabeckers.substack.com/p/the-truth-behind-the-claimed-920

Falsified data, no independent check on submitted data, and the person who submitted it has a “colorful” history when it comes to telling the truth.

 

Fact-check your propaganda! Put a filter in place to check things. Especially when they tell you what you want to hear.

578+ Male* Victories in Female Sports: A Nine-Month Tally

Quote

BACKGROUND: Our tally was started in March 2023 in response to the argument, “But there aren’t very many, so what’s the harm?” Actually, there are many male athletes competing in women’s sports. The Washington Stand found that 28 national girls or women’s sports titles were won by trans-identified men between 2003 and 2022, with “the trend accelerating over the past three years.”
...

ARCHERY-45.png
ARCHERY-46.png
  • Harriett Cunningham (Harriette Mackenzie), Mount Royal University’s new 6-2 forward, played for Vancouver Island University last year, winning the Canadian Collegiate Athletic Association (CCAA) championship title, averaging 19.1 points and 14.9 rebounds. Mackenzie was named the 2022-23 PacWest Female Athlete of the Year, CCAA Championship MVP, and received CCAA First Team All-Canadian honours.
  • Henry Hanlon scored 26 points in a girls high school basketball game in San Francisco. This is the third consecutive game where he’s scored more than one-third of the team’s points (January 2024).
  • Navi Huskey played for two years for Long Beach City College in 2019.
  • At 50, Gabrielle Ludwig joined the Mission College women’s team in California. Ludwig was 6’6,” 230 pounds.
ARCHERY-84.png
  • Arturs Ahmetovs, a Latvian male boxer, went viral for knocking out World Champion female boxer Claressa Shields during a sparring session. (2023)
  • Katia Bissonnette refused to step into the ring with Mya Walmsley at the 2023 Provincial Golden Glove Championship in October 2023 in Victoriaville, Quebec and subsequently withdrew from the match, leading to Walmsley being declared the winner by default.
ARCHERY-49.png
  • Maxine Blythin, a British player, was named Kent Women’s Player of the Year in 2019.
  • Danielle McGahey, has been named in Canada’s squad for the Women’s T20 Americas Qualifier last August 2023.
ARCHERY-50.png
  • Juniper Eastwood was the first trans runner to compete on Division 1 women’s track and cross-country teams, at the University of Montana.
  • Aspen Hoffman, a boy who identifies as a girl: 1) broke a girls’ school record in the 5,000 and helped his high school girls’ team qualify for the Washington state championship in 2022 — though Aspen finished 72nd in a boys’ race the previous year. 2) He placed fourth in the Women’s 5,000 meter race at the Wesco/Emerald Sound Cross Country Championships on October 21. 2023 with a time of 20:10.70. 3) In November 2023, on Seattle Academy’s GIRLS’ cross-country team made a 41-point difference, pushing them to a 2nd place team finish at the Washington State Girls Championships.
  • Soren Stark-Chessa: 1) on October 21, 2023, Stark-Chessa was named ‘Fastest Sophomore Girl’ for winning a girls’ cross-country running competition in Belfast, Maine. This biological boy beat the closest female competitor by 90 seconds. 2) Stark-Chessa not only dominated girls in his own state but across 5 New England states, finishing top 6 overall at the New England XC Championships, November 2023.
ARCHERY-51.png
  • Harriet Haynes won European Champion (2023), European Team Champion (2023, 2022, 2020), World Team Champion (2022), National Ladies Singles Champion (2022) and more. He won by default at the final of the 2023 Ladies Champion of Champions national pool tournament.
  • Jamie Hunter: 1) won the 2022 US Women’s Snooker Open title; 2) Allied to quarter-final runs at the Eden Masters and British Open tournaments, the run was enough to see her climb to 14th position in the world rankings; 3) In November 2023, Jamie reached her third world ranking final and first in England at the Eden Masters; 4) has also enjoyed success at national level, completing a title double in Fareham on her way to a second placed finish on the 2021/22 EPSB Women’s Tour; 5) In October 2021, Jamie reached the final of the 2021 EBSA European Women’s Snooker Championship in Portugal, losing 4-1 to Wendy Jans.
ARCHERY-52.png

BMX

  • Chelsea Wolfe was the first openly trans Olympic athlete in 2020 (as an alternate), won a UCI USA BMX Freestyle event in 2022, and rides for the U.S. national team in 2023. In May 2023, Wolfe collided with 16-year-old Sasha Pardoe, resulting in the teen’s concussion, removal from FISE World Cup contention, a chance for 7,000 Euros.

Criterium Racing

  • Emily Bridges and Lilly Chant, both trans-identified males, won first and second place, respectively, at the ThunderCrit race in London in 2022.
  • Zoey (Zakkary) Marks, a Florida crit racer, won the women’s 3/4/5 at the Harlem Skyscraper Cycling Classic (2023).

Cyclocross

  • Catherine (Nicholas) Barnwell has taken women’s wins in road and cyclocross (2023).
  • Zahava Barwin races in the women’s field in cyclocross in Canada (2021).
  • Cara (Cameron) Dixon won the women’s category at the Dirty Reiver gravel race in the UK in April 2023. Dixon was first in the women’s division, beating second place by over an hour. Dixon would have been 19th in the men’s. In June 2023, Dixon won the Trans Atlantic Way in Ireland. The female winner, who finished 26 hours later, was Hillary Allen.
  • Dahron Johnson: 1) participated in five road and cyclocross races for Women Cat 1/2 and 3 during the 2021 Music City Crits and won 5 times; 2) participated in six races for the Women Cat 3 and 1/2 during the 2022 Music City Crits and won 5 times.
  • Tessa Johnson: 1) won the 2022 Chicago Cyclocross Cup; 2) took first place in both the women’s 1/2 and the singlespeed on October 8, 2023 at Jackson Park in Chicago; (3) took first place in the women’s singlespeed at the Illinois State Cyclocross Championships on December 3, 2023.
  • Jenna Lingwood won the 40-44 Masters championship at the 2022 USA Cyclocross Nationals in Connecticut.”
  • Zee Mars (aka Kyo Zero Mars): 1) has participated in several races during 2018 under the women’s category and took first place 3 times, 5th place and 11th place; 2) won the women’s cat 3 and 4 cyclocross in the Washington area (2023).
  • Jacqueline Maunter races cyclocross for the Philly Bike Expo team (apparently remaining in the cat 4/5s since 2017, despite wins and podiums). Recipient of a Women Build Bikes grant.
  • Erica Miller races road, gravel, and cyclocross in Colorado.
  • Riley Claire Sato, a male cyclocross racer, took first place in the women’s 3 category at Dam Cross in Woodstock, Ontario on October 15, 2023.
  • Kylie (Kyle) Small: 1) finished tenth out of 59 in the varsity women’s cross country at USA cycling collegiate mountain bike national championships on October 13, 2023; 2) placed 13th of 41 in the women’s varsity collegiate category on December 7, 2023 at the USA Cycling national cyclocross championships; and 3) took the women’s gold medal at the 2023 National Cyclocross Championships in Louisville, KY..
  • Chloë Spritz (Cole Sprague) participated in the women’s single-speed category (2023).
  • Morgan Styer, raced road and cyclocross through 2017 and was a midpack cat 4/5 male who became a successful cat 3 “female” ten years later.
  • Kristin Sundquistt, a male racer, won several women’s category of cyclocross since 2021. In her most recent race that took place last November 11, 2023, she placed 16th at Verge Northampton Cyclocross, Women Pro/Cat ½ Category.
  • Evelyn Williamson: 1) took second place in the women’s singlespeed cyclocross at Jackson Park in Chicago on October 8, 2023; 2) Took second place in the women’s singlespeed category at the Illinois State Cyclocross Championships on December 3, 2023. 3) On the first roster for the women’s team for 606 Racing in Chicago for 2024.

Fat Bike

  • Roxanne Bombardier (Roger): 1) In October 2021, Bombardier came in first in the Women’s Masters 50+ event in Wrightsville, Vermont. 2) On December 2, he took first place in the women’s Fat Bike category at the Ice Weasels Cometh race in Southwick, Massachusetts.

Fixed Gear

  • Kiana Gysin, a male racer, won the women’s Zuricrit fixed gear race last August 19, 2023 in Zürich.

Mountain Biking

Track and Road Races (Cycling)

  • Taryn Askew: 1) took first place three times during the State Race Double Women 21-30 Girls Expert (July-August 2022); 2) took first place during the Warnicke Double District / 17-20 Women Cruiser / Girls Cruiser (2022); 3) took first place during the Catamount BMX – SCR/GCQ Weekend Gold Cup / 21-30 Women / Girls Expert (June 2022); 4) won first place at the Gold Cup Qualifier Triple 31-40 Women/Girls Expert (July 2022).
  • Catherine Barnwell: 1) took 7th place in the women’s category 4/5 Devens Grand Prix in July 2022; 2) took 6th place during The Frozen Four 2023: Matt Catania Memorial; 3) took 6th place in the Women u40 Long Course during Pavement Ends Gravel Race in April 2023; 4) took first place in the Women Category 4/5 C/D during the Catamount Cycling Classic Road Race in April 2023; 5) took 5th place in the Women Category 4/5 C/D during the Catamount Cycling Classic Criterium in April 2023; 6) took 3rd place in the Women Category 4/5 during the Ken Harrod Memorial Road Race in May 2023; 7) took 6th place in the Open Women category during the Guilford Gravel Grinder (the G3): the 2023 New England Gravel Championship in June 2023.
  • Jillian Bearden: 1) won the Arizona El Tour de Tucson in 2016 and was the first man to race in an American women’s professional peleton in 2017; 2) finished the Colorado Classic over 11 minutes behind the winner last August 2017.
  • Molly Cameron, a male cyclist, won at the Columbia Plateau in 2021.
  • Sylvia Dardenne is a professional road racing cyclist from Belgium, currently riding for Baloise-WB Ladies. He was the women’s 45-49 long distance duathlon world champion in 2021.
  • Kristin (Nathan) Duhr took the women’s 40+ cat 1 series win at Downhill Rockies (2023).
  • Arya Elowen: 1) took second place in the Women’s SW 4 during the Modern Market Criterium in June 2023; 2) took 8th place in the Women’s SW 4 during the Littleton Twilight Criterium by Audi Denver in August 2023.
  • Patti Flynn: 1) took 2nd place twice in the Women CAT 5 during the Half Acre Cycling’s Skyway Classic in May 2023; 2) raced in the Women’s Category 4/5 at the Cob Park Criterium in July 2023; 3) raced in the Women’s Category 4/Novice Elite during the Winfield Criterium & Summerfest 2023; 4) participated twice in the Women’s Category 4/Novice Elite during the Intelligentsia Cup William Blair Grand Prix at Goose Island Beer Co. in July 2023.
  • Ash (Max) Fierek took the women’s e-bike win at the Cascadia Dirt Cup Finals.
  • Lola Furnemont was a member of the Belgian elite women’s cycling team Baloise-WB Ladies in 2022 and 2023.
  • Na Hwa-rin, 37, won a women’s event in the Gangwon Sports Festival in South Korea in June 2023 to prove that men do not belong in women’s competitions and declined to move on National Sports Festival after qualifying for it. “I am not proud of myself at all. I believe other transgender athletes would feel the same way. They may not want to admit it, but they’re being selfish. There is no honor as an athlete in that.”
  • Veronica Ivy (a.k.a. Rachel McKinnon) is a two-time masters world champion, notably winning the 2018 UCI World Masters Track Cycling Championships.
  • Jordan Johnson participated in 29 Women’s-category races since 2021. 1) He took 3rd place in the Women SW 4 during the Bannock Street Criterium in July 2021; 2) took 2nd place in the Women SW 4 during the Ridge at 38 Criterium – CO Sr Crit Championships in September 2021; 3) took 2nd place in the Women SW4 during the Pueblo Classic Road Race in April 2022; 4) took first place in the Women SW 4 during the Louisville Criterium in May 2022; 5) took first place in the Women SW 3/ Col Wom B during the CSU Cobb Lake Oval Criterium.
  • Austin Killips: 1) in 2022, he placed third in the women’s category for Tour of the Gila and Joe Martin Stage Race; 2) He competed in National Championships United States WE – ITT (NC) and National Championships United States WE – Road Race (NC); 3) won the elite women’s division of the 2023 Tour of the Gila stage race in May 2023. Ironically, this was the first year the men’s and women’s prize money was equal. So the first male finisher received the same amount as the first “female” finisher — another male.* 4) On May 28, Killips finished second at the Belgian Waffle Ride in Canada. 5) In June, Killips won the Belgian Waffle Ride in North Carolina by more than five minutes, taking the $5,000 women’s prize. In July, the Belgian Waffle Ride changed its eligibility criteria to exclude everyone except females from the female category “in the interest of protecting the parity of sports between women and men”. 6) Named one of Outside Magazine’s “Outsiders of the Year” (December 2023). 7) In January 2024, he took third place in the UCI Cyclocross women’s elite at Zonnebeke.
  • Eva Kloiber took first place (April 2023) and third place (July 2023) in Women’s starters 3/4/5 at the 2023 Allegheny Cycling Association Summer Crit Series held at Bud Harris Bike Park, Pennsylvania.
  • Claire (Ivan) Law, a male bike racer, became the women’s P/1/2/3 northwest champion in the elimination race last August 18, 2023 at Jerry Baker Velodrome in Washington.
  • Jenna Lingwood: 1) took the gold and Claire Law took the bronze at the women’s international omniom (a time trial, a criterium, and mass-start road race) at the Jerry Baker Velodrome in Washington on May 27, 2023. 2) placed second in the Cafe Hollander Tosa Village Classic in Shorewood, Wisconsin on June 25, 2023. 3) Lingwood ranked first on the overall endurance podium at the Vision GP in Washington in July 2023.
  • Anna Lisk, according to Road Results, has participated in 35 women’s category races and most often won first place.
  • Jordan Lothrop: 1) won at the Columbia Plateau on 2021. 2) Ranked 3rd on the overall endurance podium at the Vision GP in Washington in July 2023. 3) In the Pacific GP, he was the top seed for the women’s sprint comps last August 2023.
  • Harper Martinez took 6th place during the Somibike Championship Series for women’s open category (2019).
  • Jackie Mautner, a male, won the Women’s State Championship in Pennyslvania in 2022.
  • Lesley Mumford won the CO2UT Desert Gravel 100-mile gravel race (Colorado to Utah) on May 14, 2023, for women aged 40-49 and stood alone on the victory platform (below) as the female finishers protested. He took 5 wins this season (2023).

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  • Christine Penn participated in several races since 2018 under the women’s category with the Sturdy Girl cycling team, including last May 2023 at the Kitchen Road Criterium for Women 50-54 Masters category.
  • Emil Carr-Ross, a male bike mechanic from Scotland, was interviewed for being “the only female finisher” of L’Esperit de Girona bike packing race (2023). He also entered the women’s category for the Highland Trail 550 in Scotland in May 2024.
  • Ruth Seaman took first place and set a new course record with 176.9 miles (29 laps, 9918 feet of elevation) in 11:44:55 at the 2020 Pace Bend Ultra 12-Hour Solo Female.
  • Tara Seplavy, took the win in the women’s 3/4/5 at the Emrick Blvd Crit in Pennsylvania last May 7, 2023.
  • Evelyn Sifton won the Houston Grand Crit in May 2019.
  • Natalie van Gogh won the Trofee Maarten Wynants (an international race in Belgium) in 2015 and finished top-10 in various other national and international competitions.
  • Bev Sorsby, a trans identified male, is listed with British cycling as female. On June 8th 2022, he placed 3rd in the women’s race at HH Crit series, a cycling event run by British Cycling.
  • Sara Stearns; 1) Has competed in several races in the women’s category since 2012 based on Road Results; 2) has participated in the Red Kite Championship Weekend since 2014, taking first place three times; and 3) is the Masters Women 70+ national and world track champion and was the masters world record holder as of October 18, 2022.
  • Tiffany Thomas, 46-year-old domestic pro racer for team LA Sweat. Started cycling on a Peloton bike at age 40. He won the Randall’s Island Criterium Race last March 19, 2023.
  • Ana Sofia Zarate won the top category with the biggest payout at Corsa Mexica, “The First Mexican Women’s Race”. There was no men’s category because it was designed to elevate and celebrate women’s cycling in Mexico (December 2023).
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  • Kimberly Giannola, competed in 21 Women’s Professional tournaments for the 2023 season and won a total of $3,379.
  • Natalie Ryan won two major competitions in 2022, including the MVP Open, in the Professional Disc Golf Association’s elite tier.
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  • Savannah Burton was the first out trans athlete to compete for Canada in international team sports. Burton was named to the Canadian National Dodgeball Team in 2015 and played in international competitions through 2017.
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  • Beth Debertin, a male fencer, placed 8th on Vet-40 Women’s Saber last January 2023 North American Cup.
  • Elizabeth Kocab won a women’s national title this July 2023 in the senior’s Vet-70 epee championship. The 6 foot tall, World Champion athlete has made the women’s USA Vet World Championships team since 2011.
  • Eden Philpot has now claimed four gold medals, two silver, and one for placing fifth and eighth during the 2022-2023 season of women’s fencing.
  • Dawn Wilson is a 2x Veteran women Saber Champion (2014 and 2015) and a 2x member of the US Veteran Fencing World Championship team (2017,2018)
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  • Natalie Washington: had his first game for Rushmoor FC in the Hampshire League division one for women’s football.
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  • Hailey Davidson: 1) First trans golfer to win a professional tournament (2024) and the second to play in the LPGA qualifying school (2022); 2) He won the NXXT Women’s Classic at Mission Inn Resort and Club near Orlando, Florida. He will now be able to join the Ladies Epson Tour after securing one of five women’s places (2024).
  • Lana Lawless won the Long Drivers of America competition, hitting a 254-yard drive against a strong headwind wind in the final round, winning a $12,500 prize. (2008)
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  • Athena del Rosario won first place in beach handball tournaments in 2019 and 2020, was named Southern California Heat Women’s Player of the Year in 2019, and Most Valuable Goalkeeper at the USA Team Handball Indoor National Championships in 2019. Previously, del Rosario played goalkeeper for the UC-Santa Cruz women’s soccer team.
  • Hannah Mouncey represents Australia in women’s handball (as of June 2022), having previously represented the country in men’s handball.
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  • Jessica Platt played professional hockey for the Toronto Furies in the Canadian Women’s Hockey League and was the first trans player in the league.
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  • Alice Jimmy McPike – took home silver in the women’s Absolute No-GI Indeterminate category after beating out a different female athlete at the NAGA Grappling Championship on September 9, 2023.
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  • Fallon Fox is a former mixed martial artist and the first openly transgender MMA fighter. On September 13, 2014, in a fight between Fox and Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion and an orbital bone fracture. She needed seven staples in her head. “I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right,” she stated. Fox boasted about violence against women in a 2020 tweet. “For the record, I knocked two out. One woman’s skull was fractured. Just so you know, I enjoyed it. See, I love smacking up TEFS (sic) in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It’s bliss!”
  • Alana McLaughlin, a former US Special Forces soldier as a man, won the first MMA fight competing against a woman, in 2021.
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  • Galen Kirkpatrick represented the United States women at the FAI World Paragliding Championships in France in early June 2023. The previous April, Kirkpatrick won the Pan American Paragliding Championships Female division.
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won an eighth women’s title at the Italian Indoor Masters Championships. In July 2023, at age 49, Petrillo won a bronze medal in the 400M T12 at the World Para Athletics Championship, displacing all the women who placed behind Petrillo.

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Parkrun is a UK phenomenon with “fun runs” each weekend but it’s also competitive; records for males and females are recorded. Who counts as a woman is based entirely on one’s own self-declaration. Women’s records are being broken by male runners on a regular basis. For instance:

  • Lauren Jeska, a British fell runner (a cross-country sport involving hills), (1) won women’s races in 2008, 2010, 2011, and 2012. In 2016, Jeska pleaded guilty to attempted murder, two counts of assault inflicting bodily harm, and weapons possession charges after assaulting a UK Athletics HR manager with a knife. The manager had challenged Jeska’s eligibility to run as a woman. (2) Jeska holds the women’s record for the 5K Aberystwyth Parkrun, (17 minutes and 38 seconds) as of May 2023.
  • Siân Longthorpe, a male, (1) placed first among women in the weekly Porthcawl Parkrun, with a time of 18 minutes and 53 seconds on Saturday (20 May 2023). Longthorpe broke the women’s record in the 45-49 age group and placed fifth overall. (2) He also holds the age 40-44 female record, as well as the outright female record in Parke, Devon, and (3) the female record for ages 40-44 in Torbay Velopark (2023).
  • By contrast: Andie (Andrea) Taylor, a distance runner from St. Paul, Minn, says she is eager to compete among women and yearns for inclusion — but only if the scientific research unequivocally shows that her years living as a male did not give her an advantage.
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  • Sara Weiss reigns as the Canadian Women’s National Amateur Pickleball Champion (as of May 2023).
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  • Anne Andres, 40, a male who identifies as a woman, holds a women’s bench-pressing record in Canada and on August 14, 2023 set a new Canadian women’s national deadlift record at the CPU Westerns Championship.
  • In 2019, Mary Gregory, a male, broke four world records in the female category of Gregory’s age and weight class (masters world squat record, open world bench-pressing record, masters world deadlift record, and masters world total record) in the 100% Raw Powerlifting Federation. A few days later, Gregory was stripped of these records and barred from competing as a woman. “She put down [registered as] female. Clearly, she’s not a female,” said Paul Bossi, 100% Raw Powerlifting Federation’s president. “Not biologically anyways. In our rules, we go by biological,” he told the Washington Post. “According to the rules, she can only lift in the men’s division.”
  • JayCee Cooper won the women’s 2019 national championship for bench press in the super heavyweight division.
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  • Glenique Frank, a 52-year old male athlete, finished the 2023 London Marathon in 6,171st place among all women. The previous November, he finished 14,096th in the men’s category in the New York City Marathon.
  • Amelia Gapin, Stevie Romer, and Grace Fisher are three of the at-least five trans runners who took coveted women’s spots in the Boston Marathon in 2023.
  • Erika (Brian) Kaiser, Frontrunners New York have appointed a man as their “Woman’s Director at Large”.
  • Kae Ravichandran: 1) won the women’s Finger Lakes 50k trail race on June 24, 2023. 2) He won the non-binary category of the Boston marathon in April — an apparent example of using “self-ID” to pick and choose categories. Ravichandran would have placed fifth among the men. 3) won the women’s category by 6 minutes at the Upstate Classic Half Marathon on November 19, 2023.
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  • Ash Davis plays for the Fergus Highlanders women’s team (2023).
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  • Lillian Gallagher won a women’s Red Bull Cornerstone competition in 2022 — which marked the second time female skateboarder Taylor Silverman lost to a male athlete. In a tweet, she wrote, “At the last contest series I did for Red Bull, I placed second. The trans competitor who won took $1000 dollars in qualifiers, $3000 in finals, and $1,000 in best trick. This totaled to $5000 of the prize money meant for the female athletes. I am sick of being bullied into silence.”
  • Ricci Tres, a trans-identified male, 29, defeated a 13-year-old girl, Shiloh Catori, to win the Board Street event in New York city in 2022.
  • Violet Whyte, has won prize money in several Canadian skateboarding events even though Violet is actually a “biological male.”
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  • Mara Stefania Gómez debuted in 2020 and became the first trans player in Argentine’s top football flight in 2022.
  • Blair Hamilton was named goalie for the England Universities Sport Women’s soccer team in 2022 – the first man to compete in women’s international soccer competitions.
  • Alba Palacios, Spain’s first trans football player, is a leading scorer in the Spanish football federation.
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  • Audrey Yun has taken women’s awards and prize money in his rookie year of the competitive strength sport at Strongman Corporation. He placed 1st on King and Queen of the Throne (Novice) 2023, 2nd on Vancouver Strength Championship 2023 and BC’s Strongest 2023.
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  • In 2022, trans-identified male surfer Sasha Jane Lowerson placed ninth at the Noosa Festival of Surfing and first in the Open Women’s and Women’s Logger divisions at the Western Australian State Titles.
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  • Meghan Cortez-Fields, a senior at Ramapo College of New Jersey who swam for three years on the men’s team, won first place and broke a school record in the 100-yard butterfly. She also came in first place in the 200-yard individual medley and earned second place in the 200-yard butterfly. (November 2023)
  • Lia Thomas, below (University of Pennsylvania), won a national NCAA Division I title and set an Ivy League record in the 500 freestyle in 2022 and made it to the final heat of the 100-free and 200-free. According to Swimming World, by the conclusion of Thomas’ swimming career at UPenn, Thomas’ rank had moved from 65th on the men’s team to 1st on the women’s team in the 500-yard freestyle. World Aquatics responded by banning males from the female category unless those males transitioned before the age of 12; in January 2024, Thomas appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport to overturn the new rule.
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  • Melody Wiseheart (Nicholas Cepeda): 1) A 50-year-old man “identifying as teenage girl” competed in the Trojan Cup swimming competition racing against 13-yr-old girls at East Bayfield Community Centre in Barrie, Ontario, December 2023 and reportedly undressed in the locker room with the girls too. 2) He also competed in the girl’s 13&O 100 meter fly at the Toronto Pan Am Centre (January 2024).
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  • Renée Richards, a player on the men’s circuit, underwent gender reassignment therapy in 1975 and started playing in women’s tournaments in 1976. After Richards accepted an invitation to a warm-up tournament for the US Open, 25 of the 32 women pulled out of the tournament. As a result, the USTA and WTA introduced the Barr body test, which identifies sex chromosomes. Richards refused the test and was banned from the US Open. Richards filed a lawsuit in 1977 and the New York Supreme Court ruled in Richards’ favor. Richards competed in the 1977 US Open at the age of 43, reaching the doubles final, but now admits males possess an unfair advantage and should not compete against women.
  • Brooklyn Ross, yet another male who identifies as female, entered a Wyoming tournament called the Governor’s Cup in August 2023 but dropped out, citing a “circus” atmosphere. Cheyenne Tennis Association President, Jackie Fulkrod, resigned over the controversy, citing a need for fairness in women’s sports.
  • Alicia Rowley a self-identified “female,” won the women’s 55 & over singles title at the USTA National Women’s Grass Court Championships in July, 2023 Rowley had won the National Indoor Championships in singles and doubles in May.
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  • Chloe Barnes helped her Brookline High girls’ indoor track and field team win the Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association Division 1 state championship in February 2023. The junior placed fourth in the 55-yard hurdles, contributing five points to the team’s victory.
  • Juniper Eastwood was the first trans runner to compete on Division 1 women’s track and cross-country teams, at the University of Montana.
  • Riya Isha, a male who identifies as trans, won three track and field events for Calicut University in 2017.
  • Maelle Jacques finished second in the girls 1600m at the New Hampshire Interscholastic Athletic Association Division III Track and Field State Championships on May 25, 2023. Jacques also placed 5th place in the High Jump and 13th in the Long Jump. In another event, Jacques led the girls team to a championship trophy after winning the 1600m and high jump at the Wilderness Championship, which featured DII & DIII teams from central and northern New Hampshire.
  • Caroline Layt was part of a 4×200-meter team that set an Australian national record.
  • Terry Miller won state titles in Connecticut in 2017 — with fellow “transgirl” Andraya Yearwood finishing second — and won regional New England championships. Over the course of three years, Yearwood and Miller broke 17 girls’ meet records and took 15 state championship titles. “Fastest girl in Connecticut” Chelsea Mitchell sued along with teammates Ashley Nicoletti , Selina Soule, Alanna Smith.
  • In 2022, Tiffany Newell won the women’s 45-49 Canadian indoor 5,000-meter race, setting a national record. In 2023, he won the women’s 45 3000 Meter Run All Ages and women’s 50 1500 Meter Run Masters.
  • Eris Pil took second in girls’ shot put and fourth in girls’ discus at Western Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic League’s track meet in May 2023. Top six finalists qualified for the state championships; therefore two girls who should have qualified were left out.
  • On May 21, 2023, Athena Ryan: 1) placed second in the varsity girls’ 1600-meter finals of the CIF-North Coast Section Meet of Champions, denying fourth-place finisher Adeline Johnson, 18, a chance to compete at the California state championship. Protesters unfurled banners to voice opposition to males competing in girls’ events, as did swimmer and women’s sports advocate Riley Gaines and others. At the championship meet, Ryan and Lorelei Barrett, another trans-identified male, did not show up; nor did two girls, so four slots originally reserved for girls were lost. 2) Ryan placed 17th in the Girls North Coast Section Cross Country (2023). (3) Ryan placed first in the women’s 2.97-mile varsity cross country race at the Coastal Mountain Conference Championships in Santa Rosa, CA (November 2023).
  • Sadie Schreiner broke the women’s 300-meter record on his college’s women’s track team (December 2023).
  • Caster Semenya: two-time women’s 800-meter Olympic champion, three-time 800m world champion, and a double Commonwealth Games middle distance gold medalist. When Semenya won the Doha Diamond League 800m in May 2019, it was her 30th consecutive victory over the distance.
  • Diamond Solorzano (see also volleyball) helped lead North Valley (Nevada) High School relay teams to two golds.
  • CeCé Telfer: 1) won the Division II NCAA championship in the 400-meter hurdles as a senior at Franklin Pierce University in 2019 – the first of 28+ openly trans male athletes to win a women’s NCAA title. From 2016 to 2017, Telfer had competed without success in the men’s division. 2) He shut a woman out of qualifying for finals, then placed 4th in finals in the women’s category at the UMass Flagship Invitational (2024).
  • Andraya Yearwood (below) finished 2nd in the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference’s 100-yard dash on June 4, 2017, behind trans student Terry Miller.  Over the course of three years, Yearwood and Miller broke 17 girls’ meet records and took 15 state championship titles. “Fastest girl in Connecticut” Chelsea Mitchell sued along with teammates Ashley Nicoletti , Selina Soule, Alanna Smith.

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  • In 2022, Tiffany Abreu helped Brazil win the Brazilian Cup.
  • Derek Cannuscio, a male player who happens to be captain of girls’ volleyball team in MA asked female player on opposing team after a heated game: “Did my penis distract you?” last November 18, 2023.
  • Tate Drageset, the first known biological male to receive a full athletic scholarship for a women’s sport, verbally committed to play on Washington’s women’s volleyball team (December 2023). The scholarship was reportedly rescinded after protests by women’s rights groups.
  • Aaron Lester, a male playing for Half Moon Bay’s girls’ volleyball team, spiked a ball at a girl on the opposing team, who suffered a concussion. (October 2023)
  • In 2023, Diamond Solorzano (see also track) was selected as Nevada’s 3A All-North Honorable Mention in high school and signed to play with Lassen College (Susanville, CA) in the fall.

NOTE: High school boys who play volleyball or field hockey because there isn’t a boys’ team to play on still have an unfair advantage.

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  • Laurel Hubbard, a biological male, won two gold medals at the 2019 Pacific Games in Samoa and another gold in a women’s event at the Roma World Cup in Rome. In 2020 she became the first transwoman to compete in the Olympics — displacing, among others, Roviel Detenamo from Nauru, India, 18.

Thanks,

-Smac

1
ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Logical fallacies do not advance your argument. 

I'm not trying to convince you with my argument. Perhaps there are other reasons I might engage your argument which have nothing to do with trying to convince you of anything.

smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 minute ago, ttribe said:

You do realize that "illegal" was not actually defined, right?

Not sure what you are saying here.  Are you suggesting that there are not criteria available to a judge to differentiate "legal" protests from "illegal" ones?

In the United States, protests are protected under the First Amendment, based on constitutional protections pertaining to the right to free speech, assembly, and petitioning the government. However, certain limitations apply to ensure public safety and order. The key criteria distinguishing legal from illegal protests include:

  • Location (generally legal on public property, illegal on private property and without consent, and regulated in governmental properties).
  • Permits (for protests on public streets, involving amplified sounds, large numbers of people, etc.).
  • Spontaneity (legal without a permit, as long as it does not disrupt traffic or public safety).
  • Peaceful Assembly (violent assembly and blocking public rights-of-way are illegal, but marching, chanting, holding signs, etc. are generally fine).
  • Compliance with Lawful Police Orders.
  • Incitement (protected speech is fine, incitement  that directly encourages immediate violence, harm, or illegal actions is not protected/legal).

Thanks,

-Smac

smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
3 minutes ago, ttribe said:
Quote

Logical fallacies do not advance your argument. 

I'm not trying to convince you with my argument.

I suspect you're trying to convince someone.  Logical fallacies are a poor way to do that.

3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Perhaps there are other reasons I might engage your argument which have nothing to do with trying to convince you of anything.

Engage away.  But logical fallacies is not engagement.

Thanks,

-Smac

ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Not sure what you are saying here.  Are you suggesting that there are not criteria available to a judge to differentiate "legal" protests from "illegal" ones?

In the United States, protests are protected under the First Amendment, based on constitutional protections pertaining to the right to free speech, assembly, and petitioning the government. However, certain limitations apply to ensure public safety and order. The key criteria distinguishing legal from illegal protests include:

  • Location (generally legal on public property, illegal on private property and without consent, and regulated in governmental properties).
  • Permits (for protests on public streets, involving amplified sounds, large numbers of people, etc.).
  • Spontaneity (legal without a permit, as long as it does not disrupt traffic or public safety).
  • Peaceful Assembly (violent assembly and blocking public rights-of-way are illegal, but marching, chanting, holding signs, etc. are generally fine).
  • Compliance with Lawful Police Orders.
  • Incitement (protected speech is fine, incitement  that directly encourages immediate violence, harm, or illegal actions is not protected/legal).

Thanks,

-Smac

I suspect the specific person who posted the threat had specific criteria in mind regarding what would make such a protest "illegal." I further suspect that said person did not have the actual law in mind when the threat was made.

2
SeekingUnderstanding Grand Master

SeekingUnderstanding

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, rpn said:

my takeaway from what I read is that increased stressed

Respectfully, first you’ll need to find a study that looks at patients pre and post surgery to draw any takeaways. Best not to make any take aways on the subject based on what you read or hear from SMAC97 (aka chief anti trans propagandist)

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