smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 The Church's position on trans surgery has been pretty consistent for a while now: Quote What is the Church’s position on transitioning? “Those who feel their inner sense of gender does not align with their biological sex at birth … often face complex challenges. They—and their family and friends—should be treated with sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and Christlike love. … “Worthy individuals who do not pursue surgical, medical, or social transition away from their biological sex at birth may enjoy all the privileges of Church membership. “Church leaders counsel against pursuing surgical, medical, or social transition away from one’s biological sex at birth. (Social transitioning means intentionally identifying and presenting oneself as other than one’s biological sex at birth, and may include changing dress, grooming, names, or pronouns.) Leaders advise that taking these actions will result in some Church membership restrictions. These restrictions include receiving or exercising the priesthood, receiving or using a temple recommend, and serving in some Church callings. … “Members who have taken steps to transition and then transition back to their biological sex at birth and are worthy and committed to keeping God’s commandments may enjoy all the privileges of Church membership. “Circumstances vary greatly from person to person and can change over time. Members who feel their inner sense of gender does not align with their biological sex at birth or who identify as transgender, as well as the parents or guardians of minors facing such circumstances, are encouraged to seek counsel from their bishop. Bishops counsel with the stake president to address individual circumstances with sensitivity and Christlike love. Stake and mission presidents seek counsel from the Area Presidency” (General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 38.6.23). I have previously itemized a number of articles, studies, etc. regarding the apparent harmful effects of so-called "gender-affirming" medical treatments. Today I just saw this: Trans surgeries increase risk of mental health conditions, suicidal ideations: study Some excerpts: Quote So-called "gender-affirming surgery" could lead to potentially dangerous mental health effects, a new study has found. Transgender individuals face "heightened psychological distress," including depression, anxiety and suicidal ideation, "partly due to stigma and lack of gender affirmation," as stated in the study, which was published in The Journal of Sexual Medicine. Researchers from the University of Texas set out to determine the mental health impacts from transgender people who underwent "gender-affirming surgery." Here is a link to an introduction to the article (the article itself is apparently behind a paywall). Quote The study focused on 107,583 patients 18 and over with gender dysphoria, some who underwent surgery and others who did not. They determined rates of depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation and substance-use disorders were "significantly higher" among those who underwent surgery, assessed two years later. Males with surgery had depression rates of 25% compared to males without surgery (11.5%). Anxiety rates among that group were 12.8% compared to 2.6%. The same differences were seen among females, as those with surgery had 22.9% depression rates compared to 14.6% in the non-surgical group. Females who underwent surgery also had anxiety rates of 10.5% compared to 7.1% without surgery. Very troubling stuff, this. Quote Surgeries that aimed to "feminize individuals" showed "particularly high" rates of depression and substance abuse two years after the procedures, the study found. This would seem to pertain to "trans women," that is, biological men who undergo surgery to cosmetically appear "feminize{d}." This apparently is not working out well. Quote "Findings suggest the necessity for gender-sensitive mental health support following gender-affirming surgery to address post-surgical psychological risks," the researchers wrote. I hope such post-operative treatment can mitigate the injurious effects. Quote Jonathan Alpert, a Manhattan-based psychotherapist and author, said the study findings highlight the "often overlooked" psychological risks that accompany gender-affirming surgery. "While these surgeries can be critical in helping individuals align their physical appearance with their gender identity, they are not a cure-all for the mental health challenges many transgender individuals face," Alpert, who was not involved in the study, told Fox News Digital. What an understatement. Not only are these procedures "not a cure-all," they seem to be making the situation worse for the patients. Quote "These findings suggest that surgery alone doesn’t eliminate the complex psychological burdens that stem from societal stigma and personal struggles with identity," he went on. "In fact, taking a scalpel to treat a psychological disorder can sometimes lead to more issues, as the study results are elucidating." Well, yes. If a medication designed to alleviate suicidal ideation increased the rates of suicidal ideation in those taking it, I doubt that medication would continue to be prescribed. Quote Florida neurosurgeon Dr. Brett Osborn, who also was not part of the study, agreed that "surgery is no guarantee of happiness." "We’re often told that gender-affirming surgery is essential for alleviating gender dysphoria — but what happens when the euphoria fades?" he said in an interview with Fox News Digital. "The key question remains: Is the surgery itself causing distress, or are preexisting mental health issues driving people toward it? Correlation or causation? No one knows." "No one knows." Yeesh. We lack meaningful longitudinal data on whether "the surgery itself {is} causing distress," the impact of preexisting comorbidities, etc., yet these procedures are still being done? I have previously made this observation re: procedures on children: Quote Cutting off healthy body parts of children under the auspices of "gender-affirming care" is profoundly disturbing. The moral and ethical and legal defects are legion: Comorbidities. Informed consent. Compromised assessments of the best interests of the child. Irreversibility. Sterilization. Electively removing healthy body parts of minors. Longitudinal studies essentially absent. Lifelong medical regimens. Ideological/sociopolitical influences/pressures on medical care. Social contagion risks. Risk of financial devastation for the individual (and burden on society). Looks like these concerns apply to adults undergoing trans procedures as well. It's hard to claim the patients have "informed consent" when we lack longitudinal data. Quote A 2022 study showed that around 1.4 million American adults identify as transgender and about 0.6% of all American adults experience gender dysphoria. "The dramatic upward trend of gender dysphoria among young people in recent years should raise serious questions about the role of cultural and social influences," Alpert said. "While increased awareness has made it easier for some children to express their struggles, we cannot ignore the possibility that social contagion, along with peer influence and social media, may be contributing to this surge." "{W}e cannot ignore the possibility that social contagion, along with peer influence and social media, may be contributing to this surge {in gender dysphoria}." Yep. "Social contagion risks" is one of the concerns I itemized above. See also here and here. Quote Both experts caution against rushing into surgery or other irreversible decisions. Teens who are being treated for gender dysphoria should be "properly supported and treated with compassion" without being pressured into making "life-altering" medical decisions, Alpert advised. Osborn also stressed the need for comprehensive psychological evaluations, especially for those with preexisting mental health challenges. Mental health support, lifestyle modifications and counseling should all take precedence before surgery, not after, he said. "You don’t amputate a limb because of temporary pain, and you certainly don’t permanently alter your body without exhausting every other option first," he said. Comorbidities. Irreversibility. Compromised assessments of the best interests of the child. All of these are in the concerns I itemized above. Quote Osborn expressed the same cautions about hormone therapy — "we’re talking about irreversible changes that demand lifelong management." "This isn’t about politics and ideology — it’s about health, longevity, and making sure people don’t undergo drastic, life-altering procedures only to regret them," he said. "That said, to a great degree, the burden is on us physicians who took an oath to first do no harm." Yep. "Compromised assessments of the best interests of the child" is in the above list. Quote Mark Trammell, executive director of The Center for American Liberty, which provides legal representation to people who are de-transitioning after trans surgeries, provided the below statement to Fox News Digital. "The findings of this study should serve as a wake-up call. But for the young detransitioners we represent in lawsuits against gender clinics, these statistics are their lived reality," he said. "Their so-called 'gender-affirming care' did not alleviate their distress — it created new mental health struggles and, for many, introduced suicidal thoughts for the first time. This is why we are fighting to hold those responsible accountable." I think the legal fallout from recent trends in "so-called 'gender-affirming care'" will be huge. Meanwhile, however, I am grateful that we have living prophets and apostles to guide us. They ain't perfect, but they sure seem to be getting most of the important things right. The Church's position discouraging "surgical, medical, or social transition" is, I think, rooted both in religious doctrine and plain old biological reality. A man cannot become a woman by "identifying" as one, or by acting like one, or by putting on women's clothing, or by undergoing medical procedures intended to "feminize" his outward appearance. I have great sympathy for those with Gender Dysphoria, but I do not think unvetted and deeply problematic medical procedures are the answer. Thanks, -Smac
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 (edited) Agreed, let’s murder them all to improve their mental health. Oh, and maybe include the actual study results instead of the propaganda clickbait article. Edited March 6, 2025 by The Nehor
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 (edited) Oh, and here you go. https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/debunked-no-new-study-does-not-show Quote The study went viral after the far-right Twitter account AFPost (America First Post) falsely claimed, "A recent study published in Oxford’s Journal of Sexual Medicinesampling 107,583 patients found that sex-change surgery doubles depression rates among gender dysphoric individuals rather than reducing them." While the study does show that transgender people who have undergone surgery report higher rates of depression than those who have not, AFPost and its followers misrepresent its findings. The study itself explicitly states that it does not compare transgender people who desire but cannot access surgery to those who have received it. Instead, it examines two groups with vastly different characteristics—a fundamental flaw known as selection bias. It is possible—and likely—that transgender people who desire surgery experience higher levels of gender dysphoria to begin with, which itself is strongly linked to depression and anxiety. It is also possible—and likely, given other studies— that surgery alleviates depression for those who need it, yet the study’s findings would remain the same. Crucially, the study does not analyze causation; it does not measure the impact of surgery on an individual’s mental health over time. In contrast, studies that do evaluate this impact consistently show that gender-affirming surgery improves mental health outcomes for those who seek it. Maybe spend your time fact-checking the propaganda you read before parsing it out and writing glowing comments praising it. Because it is wrong. Useless. Garbage. Misrepresentation. Fake News. Rubbish. Lies. Malicious Deception. Hateful Rhetoric. Monstrous Bigotry. STOP SPREADING LIES ABOUT MY FRIENDS! Edited March 6, 2025 by The Nehor 1
smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Author Posted March 6, 2025 16 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Agreed, let’s murder them all to improve their mental health. This is an important topic, and ought to be treated with more gravity and decorum than the snark and unseriousness that you so frequently bring to discussions. 16 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Oh, and maybe include the actual study results instead of the propaganda clickbait article. I provided a link to the intro URL. As I noted, the study itself appears to be behind a paywall. Thanks, -Smac
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 Just now, smac97 said: This is an important topic, and ought to be treated with more gravity and decorum than the snark and unseriousness that you so frequently bring to discussions. This is an important topic so you shouldn’t spread disinformation about it. Just now, smac97 said: I provided a link to the intro URL. As I noted, the study itself appears to be behind a paywall. Then did you look for other articles about it? Check to see that they were all reporting the same thing? Did you see if anyone pointed out flaws? No, you did not. An article similar to the one you posted has already been presented in at least one state legislature as evidence that gender-affirming care is bad and should be restricted. That this is a bad reading of the actual study was left out. Stop spreading lies. Stop promoting hatred. Stop trying to hurt people I care about. If doing those things is “gravity and decorum” to you then you are doing it wrong. 1
Popular Post Calm Posted March 6, 2025 Popular Post Posted March 6, 2025 For comparisons between surgery and nonsurgery group besides ensuring looking at comparable groups (as Nehor pointed out)…. There is the problem with recovery time. I think 2 years may be too short a time period for major surgery for some (it was a couple of years before my scars from my breast reduction stopped troubling me, I am a slow healer). I would also like to see comparisons done with non gender affirming surgery of the same level of difficulty for the patient in likely post surgery pain and mobility issues to see if it’s the issues with surgery in general that contributes to depression vs the type of treatment being ineffective or worse. Plus if they have had significant depression and anxiety for much of their life, it may take years to fully adapt to the new state to show full benefits of any treatment, imo. Habits of thought developed with depression need to be addressed as well, so therapy should be required. I would be interested in studies comparing therapy only, surgery only, therapy and surgery to see which is the most successful treatment over longer periods of time. It would be good to get input from those who view gender affirming surgery as positive on how long it took for it to become ‘normal’ for them, they felt the process was complete (their daily routine care was minimal and their emotional and mental state was stable). 5
smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Author Posted March 6, 2025 (edited) 46 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Oh, and here you go. https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/debunked-no-new-study-does-not-show From this article: Quote Over the weekend, several far-right accounts falsely claimed that a new study showed gender reassignment surgery significantly increases depression, anxiety, and suicidality among transgender people. The study in question, conducted by researchers at Texas A&M University, does not support these claims in any way. Instead, it examines differences between transgender people who desire and obtain surgery versus those who do not obtain surgery, regardless of if they desire it. I think the issue is whether medical interventions are making things better or worse for people with Gender Dysphoria. The study seems to indicate that those to receive such interventions end up worse off than those who did not receive it. Quote Crucially, the study does not measure the impact of surgery on an individual's mental health—there is no pre- and post-surgery comparison. There are all sorts of data missing. I will acknowledge that. Indeed, the lack of longitudinal data is one of my biggest concerns: Comorbidities. Informed consent. Compromised assessments of the best interests of the child. Irreversibility. Sterilization. Electively removing healthy body parts of minors. Longitudinal studies essentially absent. Lifelong medical regimens. Ideological/sociopolitical influences/pressures on medical care. Social contagion risks. Risk of financial devastation for the individual (and burden on society). I think the bolded items above need more attention. Quote The study went viral after the far-right Twitter account AFPost (America First Post) falsely claimed, "A recent study published in Oxford’s Journal of Sexual Medicine sampling 107,583 patients found that sex-change surgery doubles depression rates among gender dysphoric individuals rather than reducing them." While the study does show that transgender people who have undergone surgery report higher rates of depression than those who have not, AFPost and its followers misrepresent its findings. Notably, I did not link to the above "AFPost" article. Here is another one that makes some fairly good points: Gender Transition Surgery Associated with Heightened Mental Health Issues: Study Some excerpts: Quote Americans who struggle with gender identity are “at significantly higher risk for depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, and substance use disorders” if they undergo gender transition surgery, according to a study published in the Oxford Academic Journal of Sexual Medicine on February 25. Hmm. Quote These findings are consistent with other recent studies showing a correlation between gender transition surgeries and mental health issues. An April 2024 study funded by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) found that people with a history of gender transition surgeries had much higher rates for PTSD, suicide attempts, and suicides than people without such a history. (However, this comparison was not among adults with gender dysphoria but adults with an emergency room visit — a far less meaningful comparison.) This seems pretty even-handed. Quote Returning to the Oxford Academic study, the most obvious conclusion to draw from its findings is that gender transition surgeries fail to work as advertised. The widespread model of “gender-affirming care” (GAC) is premised on the notion that medically altering the body of a gender dysphoric person to appear more like a member of the opposite sex is the best way to relieve his or her mental distress. As the fullest expression of such medical interventions, gender transition surgery should — if this theory is correct — provide gender dysphoric individuals with the fullest relief from their mental distress. Yet, according to this large study, people who have undergone gender transition surgeries are still more likely to experience serious mental health issues, indicating that the surgeries did not relieve their mental distress. In fact, all else being equal, those who have undergone gender transition surgery appear to be more distressed than those who have not. Thus, these findings suggest that medical professionals would best serve the mental health of people with gender dysphoria by not performing gender transition surgeries on them. This seems to make sense. Quote This obvious conclusion is not necessarily ironclad. One reasonable counterargument is that gender transition surgeries are usually reserved for gender dysphoric people with the most acute mental distress; therefore, we would expect that members of the group who underwent gender transition surgery would have experienced a higher rate of mental health issues even before surgery due to an element of self-selection. Yet this argument doesn’t undermine the obvious conclusion so much as it highlights an inherent limitation in the study. To truly discern the effects of gender transition surgery on mental health outcomes, the study would have to measure mental health outcomes before and after surgery and measure the rate of change with accompanying measurements for a control group over the same period. (An even better methodology would conduct randomized control trials to minimize the opportunity for self-selection, but the American medical community jumped right over this step in their zeal to implement the GAC model.) To put the counterargument another way, the data collected for this study does not rule out the theoretical possibility that the gender transition surgeries measured here actually improved mental health outcomes for those who underwent surgery, even though they still had far more mental health issues than other people with gender dysphoria. But proving this theoretical possibility would require different data than that analyzed by this study. Researchers committed to “following the science” would not reject the obvious conclusion to which their findings point based on a theoretical objection their data do not address. Alas, the research team did not arrive at this obvious conclusion. Instead, they wrote that their findings “suggest the necessity for gender-sensitive mental health support following gender-affirming surgery to address post-surgical psychological risks.” Even this conclusion calls into question the utility of gender transition surgeries. If mental health issues persist after surgery, what medical benefit is there to justify the inherent risks and complications? That's a fair question. Quote Yet the research team’s assumptions precluded this fruitful line of inquiry. In a section labeled “background,” they wrote, “Transgender individuals face heightened psychological distress, including depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation, partly due to stigma and lack of gender affirmation.” This claim assigns sociological reasons for psychological maladies, placing their treatment beyond the realm of their medical expertise. It also exposes an ideological commitment to affirming gender transitions and removing social stigma against transgenderism. Even this background statement is undermined by the study’s findings. If “stigma” against transgender identity is measured by public outcry, then one of the hottest cultural flashpoints is the debate over males with fully intact genitalia exposing themselves in gyms, locker rooms, and similar private spaces reserved for women. If the psychological distress associated with gender dysphoria were truly due to social stigma, then surgeries that remove male sexual organs would, at least in part, take away the stigma, thereby reducing the psychological distress. But that is not the case, at least according to this study. Despite the researchers’ evident ideological preferences — or, perhaps, the framing necessary to get the research published — this study takes its place in a growing constellation of scientific literature that throws doubt on the GAC model that has captured American medical institutions. Whatever framing or context accompanies it, the core finding is that people with gender dysphoria who have gender transition surgeries report far higher rates of mental health issues than people with gender dysphoria who do not have such surgeries. Such results should cause health care professionals to question whether gender transition surgeries have any medical benefit at all. Interesting stuff. 46 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Maybe spend your time fact-checking the propaganda you read before parsing it out and writing glowing comments praising it. It sure would be nice if you offered more than snark and potshots. 46 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Because it is wrong. Useless. Garbage. Misrepresentation. Fake News. Rubbish. Lies. Malicious Deception. Hateful Rhetoric. Monstrous Bigotry. Emotionalisms and ugly invective. That's all you've got. That's pretty much all you ever bring to discussions on this board. No evidence. No analysis. No reasoning. 46 minutes ago, The Nehor said: STOP SPREADING LIES ABOUT MY FRIENDS! Please spare us the hysterics, Nehor. I posted a news item about a study. Like you, I am concerned about the welfare of people with Gender Dysphoria. Unlike you, however, I have reservations about medical interventions, for a variety of reasons (see the above bullet list). From the article you cited: Quote Extensive research has examined the impact of gender-affirming care on transgender people’s mental health, consistently showing that it leads to improvement, as expected. One study of 3,134 patients found that SSRI and SNRI use declined after surgery, alongside reductions in depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. Another study comparing transgender people who obtained surgery to those who desired it but were unable to access it found that those who underwent surgery experienced lower psychological distress, reduced smoking rates, and decreased suicidal ideation. Studies that focus specifically on the mental health outcomes of transgender people who seek surgery—rather than lumping together all transgender individuals, many of whom do not want surgery—consistently show significant improvements in mental health. So there are three articles cited above: Gender-affirming Surgery Improves Mental Health Outcomes and Decreases Anti-depressant Use in Patients with Gender Dysphoria Association Between Gender-Affirming Surgeries and Mental Health Outcomes What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? I will read these and give them due consideration. Thanks, -Smac Edited March 6, 2025 by smac97
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 To be clear the only thing this study really looked at was a comparison of the mental health of those with gender dysphoria who got surgery and those who did not. It is not a “before and after” comparison. For an analogy let’s say you have a group of people with back pain. Some minor, some severe. Some seek out extensive medical intervention to reduce the back pain. Others do not for any number of reasons like the pain not being severe or can’t afford it or whatever. Then you measure both those who got the surgery and those who did not and those who got the surgery report higher back pain. It ignores causation. It doesn’t even address the question of whether the surgery reduced the pain. Those that got the surgery almost certainly had much higher pain to start with. Meanwhile we do have studies that show gender affirming healthcare generally reduces mental health problems in the long run when comparing “before and after”. Many of them. There is a worldwide consensus to this effect. It is not a conspiracy of a few doctors who have a kink for performing surgery. Anecdotally I have seen these improvements. They can be revolutionary. A guy I know has come completely out of a shell of isolation after pursuing transition. He is so much more alive now. Creeps like whoever wrote this want to take it away. The article’s take is actively and maliciously deceptive. It is an evil pretending to be scientific when it is not and the writers know it is not. Yet many people love lies that give them license to hate. Hence why everything is falling apart. And we deserve it. 4
smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Author Posted March 6, 2025 (edited) 24 minutes ago, The Nehor said: This is an important topic so you shouldn’t spread disinformation about it. I think the study merits discussion. I think you trying to shout down such discussions is not helpful. 24 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Then did you look for other articles about it? Check to see that they were all reporting the same thing? Did you see if anyone pointed out flaws? No, you did not. I started this thread with the intention of initiating a conversation about the issues raised in the article. I anticipated people with opposing viewpoints would weigh in, as you have now done. I had hoped such input would be substantive rather than vitriolic and hysterical, as your posts have been. To wit: 24 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Stop spreading lies. Stop promoting hatred. Stop trying to hurt people I care about. If doing those things is “gravity and decorum” to you then you are doing it wrong. You offer nothing of substance. Again. I am deeply concerned about people with Gender Dysphoria. A big part of that concern is that they are being cheered on by ideologues and zealots, without due regard to comorbidities, lack of informed consent, lack of meaningful longitudinal data, and so on. Thanks, -Smac Edited March 6, 2025 by smac97
smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Author Posted March 6, 2025 20 minutes ago, Calm said: For comparisons between surgery and nonsurgery group besides ensuring looking at comparable groups (as Nehor pointed out)…. There is the problem with recovery time. I think 2 years may be too short a time period for major surgery for some (it was a couple of years before my scars from my breast reduction stopped troubling me, I am a slow healer). I would also like to see comparisons done with non gender affirming surgery of the same level of difficulty for the patient in likely post surgery pain and mobility issues to see if it’s the issues with surgery in general that contributes to depression vs the type of treatment being ineffective or worse. Plus if they have had significant depression and anxiety for much of their life, it may take years to fully adapt to the new state to show full benefits of any treatment, imo. Habits of thought developed with depression need to be addressed as well, so therapy should be required. I would be interested in studies comparing therapy only, surgery only, therapy and surgery to see which is the most successful treatment over longer periods of time. It would be good to get input from those who view gender affirming surgery as positive on how long it took for it to become ‘normal’ for them, they felt the process was complete (their daily routine care was minimal and their emotional and mental state was stable). So . . . more longitudinal data is warranted. I agree. Meanwhile, however: Quote Florida neurosurgeon Dr. Brett Osborn, who also was not part of the study, agreed that "surgery is no guarantee of happiness." "We’re often told that gender-affirming surgery is essential for alleviating gender dysphoria — but what happens when the euphoria fades?" he said in an interview with Fox News Digital. "The key question remains: Is the surgery itself causing distress, or are preexisting mental health issues driving people toward it? Correlation or causation? No one knows." Thanks, -Smac
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: I think the issue is whether medical interventions are making things better or worse for people with Gender Dysphoria. The study seems to indicate that those to receive such interventions end up worse off than those who did not receive it. The study does not indicate that. The article you posted does. Yet the article purports to be a summary of the results of the study. See the problem there? 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: There are all sorts of data missing. I will acknowledge that. Indeed, the lack of longitudinal data is one of my biggest concerns: Comorbidities. Informed consent. Compromised assessments of the best interests of the child. Irreversibility. Sterilization. Electively removing healthy body parts of minors. Longitudinal studies essentially absent. Lifelong medical regimens. Ideological/sociopolitical influences/pressures on medical care. Social contagion risks. Risk of financial devastation for the individual (and burden on society). Oh, that is very big of you. You will continue to propagate the lie but you are willing to admit there might be some petty details that need clarifying. Also your bullet list itself is full of pseudoscience. Social contagion risks? Your kid is going to catch the TRANS!!!!! It is contagious. They are converting you! Just like the gays and lesbians were except they weren’t but this time they really might be and can you afford to take that risk? Oh, and it is all about the children except transgender surgeries on minors are very rare and used only in pretty extreme cases but we ignore that point and drone on endlessly about the children and…… Stop. You are wrong. The article you posted is wrong. It presents a false conclusion. Acting like this is nuanced is ridiculous. There are areas of transgender care that need nuance. This article isn’t one of them. It should be rejected as a lie. There is nothing to discuss beyond why there are people so eager to lie about this. I am more than happy to have that particular conversation but I don’t think you would enjoy it very much. And there are longitudinal studies on the effects of transgender surgery. You don’t ever post those though for some reason. 4
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 8 minutes ago, smac97 said: So . . . more longitudinal data is warranted. Or we could look at the data we already have? Just a thought. 8 minutes ago, smac97 said: Meanwhile, however: Whereas most surgeries come with absolutely guaranteed outcomes and a written promise from God that you will never suffer pain or mental health problems ever again. 2
smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Author Posted March 6, 2025 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Meanwhile we do have studies that show gender affirming healthcare generally reduces mental health problems in the long run when comparing “before and after”. Many of them. There is a worldwide consensus to this effect. It is not a conspiracy of a few doctors who have a kink for performing surgery. Respectfully, I question this supposed "consensus." A lot: Why disturbing leaks from US gender group WPATH ring alarm bells in the NHS Medical Journal’s False Consensus on ‘Gender-Affirming Care’ Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence Dr. Paul McHugh's SCOTUS Amicus Brief Opinion: Europe’s example on gender treatment Affirming Deception: Dishonesty in Gender-Medicine British Medical Journal: Gender Ideology Not Settled Science Why Europe and America are going in opposite directions on youth transgender medicine Medical Journal’s False Consensus on ‘Gender-Affirming Care’ Transgender Care Needs Better Science, More Transparency So contrary to your insistent declaration, there is plenty of room for reasoned and principled disagreement about trans issues. 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Anecdotally I have seen these improvements. They can be revolutionary. A guy I know has come completely out of a shell of isolation after pursuing transition. He is so much more alive now. Creeps like whoever wrote this want to take it away. "Anecdotally" being the operative word here. Longitudinal data is essentially absent. 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: The article’s take is actively and maliciously deceptive. It is an evil pretending to be scientific when it is not and the writers know it is not. Yet many people love lies that give them license to hate. Hence why everything is falling apart. And we deserve it. Disagreement is not hate, Nehor. It's disagreement. Hysterics and vile accusations like what you are posting here, presented in lieu of reasoned and civil discussion, undermine your position. They make you less credible, not more. They make your position out to be based on emotionalisms and anger, not on reasoned assessment of evidence. Thanks, -Smac 1
Benjamin McGuire Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 51 minutes ago, smac97 said: Here is a link to an introduction to the article (the article itself is apparently behind a paywall). Yeah, you should read it. There are a couple of things that are important to be aware of when looking at this data - 1: Gender dysphoria, as used in this study, is simply a diagnosis. There is a range of options for easing gender dysphoria, where surgery represents one end of that spectrum of care. What this means is that for a study like this, we aren't really getting an apples to apples comparison between those who have surgery and those who don't. Those who don't have surgery may be experiencing significant easing of their gender dysphoria without the need for surgical interventions - and to compare these individuals and their mental health with those who ended up needing surgical intervention is problematic. 2: Our society has generally always stigmatized transgender individuals - but this has ramped up in recent years (good job on doing your part in this). To that end, those who get surgical interventions to treat their gender dysphoria face a range of issues that are a result of that intervention that their counterparts simply do not face. The article notes this: Quote It is also crucial to acknowledge that transgender individuals seek mental health support for a wide range of issues, not solely those related to gender identity. The lifelong impact of minority stress continues to affect transgender individuals’ experiences of depression and anxiety even after transitioning. Barriers to mental health care, including discrimination within healthcare settings, exacerbate these mental health challenges, fostering systemic distrust and reducing access to necessary services. In a different (but recent) study, where comparisons were made of before and after surgical interventions for individuals with gender dysphoria, the results were much different: Quote Depression and suicidality are significant in the transgender population; GAS has been shown to reduce those rates. Vaginoplasty significantly decreases depression and anxiety in transfemales, and using psychological rumination as a stand-in for depression suggests that GAS reduces depression rates and that GAS on subsequent body areas continues to improve depression rates. Additionally, chest and genital GAS show a greater reduction in depression and suicidality versus isolated hormone therapy. Of course, if you want Fox News's take on this ... by all means, read it. It's just not going point out it's own complicity in adding to the mental health problems facing those with a gender dysphoria diagnosis ... 3
smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Author Posted March 6, 2025 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Oh, that is very big of you. You will continue to propagate the lie but you are willing to admit there might be some petty details that need clarifying. No substance. Just snark and invective. 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Also your bullet list itself is full of pseudoscience. Well, no. 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Social contagion risks? Your kid is going to catch the TRANS!!!!! It is contagious. They are converting you! Appeal to ridicule. That's the fallacy on display here. 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Stop. You are wrong. The article you posted is wrong. It presents a false conclusion. Acting like this is nuanced is ridiculous. There are areas of transgender care that need nuance. This article isn’t one of them. It should be rejected as a lie. There is nothing to discuss beyond why there are people so eager to lie about this. I am more than happy to have that particular conversation but I don’t think you would enjoy it very much. You essentially never offer anything of substance. Just snark. And anger. And insults. And accusations. We're emotional beings, so we all sometimes let our emotions get the better of us. Some participants on this board are capable of setting aside emotions and having substantive debates and discussions (though emotions still sneak in here and there). However much I may ultimately disagree with Analytics and Teancum on various topics, they are formidable intellects and often present cogent and well-reasoned arguments and analysis. Not you, though. I don't think I have ever seen this from you. Not a single instance comes to mind. Snark and potshots and vitriol and accusations are your default and go-to resources. I think reasoned and substantive discourse is above your paygrade. You just don't have it in you to set aside the vitriol and emotionalisms and have a civil discussion about a difficult topic. This is based on years and years of reading your posts. Analytics and Teancum and some others provide commentary which makes me think. Your commentary previously typically made me roll my eyes. These days, your commentary elicits pretty much nothing at all. I don't take you seriously, because you are, and always have been, a fundamentally unserious participant on this board. Thanks, -Smac 3
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: I think the study merits discussion. I think you trying to shout down such discussions is not helpful. We aren’t discussing the study. All you discussed was the article which was wrong. Completely wrong. 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: I started this thread with the intention of initiating a conversation about the issues raised in the article. I anticipated people with opposing viewpoints would weigh in, as you have now done. It is not just an opposing viewpoint. We aren’t arguing over an interpretation of the facts. You are siding with the people who are lying about the facts. That is not something that has a valid viewpoint to oppose in some debate. It is an error to be corrected. 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: I had hoped such input would be substantive rather than vitriolic and hysterical, as your posts have been. To wit: Not wanting my friends to be cut off from healthcare that improves their lives does make me angry. Particularly when the people trying to take them away are LYING. I would be willing to debate all kinds of things. I am not going to pretend lies are a valid critique of medical options. There is no point. That is why you fall back on your “vitriolic” thing. You know you can’t actually argue that your viewpoint is accurate so you run to the weeds and pretend that you are investigating and figuring things out except the lawn you are examining is a toxic garbage pile of lies. 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: You offer nothing of substance. Again. Calling out and exposing lies is substance counselor. Telling them to the court is not. 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: I am deeply concerned about people with Gender Dysphoria. A big part of that concern is that they are being cheered on by ideologues and zealots, without due regard to comorbidities, lack of informed consent, lack of meaningful longitudinal data, and so on. No, you aren’t. There aren’t a bunch of idealogues and zealots behind this. There aren’t people urging people to experience gender dysphoria. There aren’t a bunch of cool kids on the playground mocking the cishets as a bunch of weirdos. Informed consent is a big deal in these processes. There is meaningful longitudinal data. They do examine comorbidities. Your concerns have all been looked into. You ignore this. You always ignore it. You like condemning transgender people and those that provide their care so much you break the rules of this site routinely to post the latest propaganda. What does this have to do with the Church? You don’t know the people you are trying to dictate to. You don’t know their struggles. You aren’t interested in any of that. This stuff is all over. You could spend months reading stories of transgender people trying to find some peace and happiness with many successes. Not all but that is life. So please stop. Stop pretending you are bringing up valid points when you bring bigoted commentaries on actual studies and pretend they are some indicator of fact or truth worthy of public discourse. You would rip such a commentary on a study about Mormons to pieces and you would be right to do so and I have seen you do it. Be consistent. You’re spreading disinformation that can hurt people and increases ignorance. The scriptures do not speak well of such people. Be better. 4
Popular Post MrShorty Posted March 6, 2025 Popular Post Posted March 6, 2025 1 hour ago, smac97 said: quoting someone else: "These findings suggest that surgery alone doesn’t eliminate the complex psychological burdens that stem from societal stigma and personal struggles with identity," he went on. This statement struck me, as we sit here trying to tease out cause and effect and correlation -- not to mention claims of what God believes about these things. How much of the continued struggles for transgender people stems from their community's (and their church, if there is a church that is part of their community) failure to support and encourage them? I'm reminded of a study that was done to look at self-reported reasons given by those who detransition. As cited in this Newsweek article (https://www.newsweek.com/what-data-shows-about-transgender-detransition-regret-1807448 After interviewing about 2000 adults who had a history of detransitioning, they observed that the vast majority (82%) "said their decision was influenced by external factors such as family pressure and societal stigma." Continuing on, they indicate that only about 16% of these adults reported an "internal" driving factor, such as continued uncertainty about their gender identity. If I had the time, expertise, and access to the data to query it properly, this is the biggest question I see for those of us in their community. How much of transgender people's struggles are internal, and how much do we as a community contribute (perhaps unwittingly) to their difficulties. Since things like "societal stigma" seem to be significant contributors to their struggles, perhaps the best thing I, as a random Joe in the community, can do is try not to perpetuate the stigma. 5
smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Author Posted March 6, 2025 10 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said: Our society has generally always stigmatized transgender individuals Such is the unfortunate response to many mental disorders. The unusual think about this one, though, is that some segments of society are encouraging, even demanding, that society at large go along with the incongruent-with-reality notions inherent in the disorder. That is, that a man who "identifies" as a woman is a woman. And that demand for submission to the delusion is pretty barbed - as you yourself demonstrate: 10 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said: - but this has ramped up in recent years (good job on doing your part in this). There is an element of The Emperor Has No Clothes going on here, hence your comment (intended, I think, to shame me into going along with the falsehood that the emperor has clothes). A biological male does not become a woman simply because he subjectively "identifies" as one. Gender Dysphoria is, AFAICS, the only mental illness that foments a delusion in the individual which the rest of society is, somehow, expected to acknowledge and accommodate as valid. If a biological male can "identify" as a woman, then can Rachel Dolezal and Jessica Krug "identify" as "Black?" Can "Stefoknee Wolscht," a biological male in his 50s, call himself a perpetual six-year-old girl? Can a 5'9" white guy "identify" as a six-foot-tall Chinese woman? Can Eva Tiamat Medusa "identify" as a dragon? Can Naia Ōkami "identify" as a wolf? I think not. This is not hatred. This is not stigmatization. This is simple disagreement. This is me declining to play along with falsehoods, declining to act as if mental delusions reflect reality. This is me saying, quietly but clearly, that "the emperor has no clothes." Thanks, -Smac 3
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 14 minutes ago, smac97 said: Respectfully, I question this supposed "consensus." A lot: Why disturbing leaks from US gender group WPATH ring alarm bells in the NHS Medical Journal’s False Consensus on ‘Gender-Affirming Care’ Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence Dr. Paul McHugh's SCOTUS Amicus Brief Opinion: Europe’s example on gender treatment Affirming Deception: Dishonesty in Gender-Medicine British Medical Journal: Gender Ideology Not Settled Science Why Europe and America are going in opposite directions on youth transgender medicine Medical Journal’s False Consensus on ‘Gender-Affirming Care’ Transgender Care Needs Better Science, More Transparency So contrary to your insistent declaration, there is plenty of room for reasoned and principled disagreement about trans issues. Quantity of bad evidence does not turn into quality evidence. You know as well as I do that I could come up with a much longer list of articles arguing that Mormonism is a dangerous cult. Would that convince you that there is room for “reasoned and principled disagreement”? I doubt it. 14 minutes ago, smac97 said: "Anecdotally" being the operative word here. Longitudinal data is essentially absent. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32368216/ It is essentially absent only until you Google it. 14 minutes ago, smac97 said: Disagreement is not hate, Nehor. It's disagreement. Twisting facts is often motivated by hate though. People generally need a motive to lie. 14 minutes ago, smac97 said: Hysterics and vile accusations like what you are posting here, presented in lieu of reasoned and civil discussion, undermine your position. They make you less credible, not more. They make your position out to be based on emotionalisms and anger, not on reasoned assessment of evidence. Oh no, and the bigots who would swallow this tripe and think it is worth something thought so highly of me before now. They loved me. They carried me through the streets chanting my name in reverence. Please. If calling out lies as lies somehow undermines my credibility because I don’t pretend to be detached and decorous while doing so I am okay with that. Well, I am not okay as it means I live in a deeply sick society but I am trying to come to terms with that reality. Also I read history. Transgender rights are not going to be secured based on reasoned analytical study of anti-transgender propaganda any more than Gay Rights, Civil Rights, Women’s Rights, or basic human rights are secured that way. It requires marching, fighting, shooting authoritarians and fascists, court battles, burning things, throwing pies into the faces of bigots, and all the rest. Hopefully it won’t require the more violent options. Sometimes we pull off change without those. Still, I think we should bring back the pie thing.
smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Author Posted March 6, 2025 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Not wanting my friends to be cut off from healthcare that improves their lives does make me angry. Particularly when the people trying to take them away are LYING. I would be willing to debate all kinds of things. All evidence to the contrary. I cannot recall a single instance of you setting aside your vitriol and snark and having a reasoned, evidence-based discussion and debate. It's just not in you. 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: That is why you fall back on your “vitriolic” thing. You know you can’t actually argue that your viewpoint is accurate so you run to the weeds and pretend that you are investigating and figuring things out except the lawn you are examining is a toxic garbage pile of lies. You have nothing of substance to offer. Just vitriol and accusations and emotionalisms. 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: You like condemning transgender people I have never condemned transgender people generally (I have specifically condemned people who are, in my view, grooming children by exposing them to highly sexualized stuff at parades, drag shows, etc.). I have some real compassion for people with Gender Dysphoria. 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: What does this have to do with the Church? See the OP. 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: You don’t know the people you are trying to dictate to. I am not "dictating" to anyone. I started a thread to have a conversation and a debate. And you, as usual, have nothing substantive to offer in response. 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So please stop. No. Free Speech is a wonderful thing. I decline to be censored, least of all by you. 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Stop pretending you are bringing up valid points when you bring bigoted commentaries on actual studies and pretend they are some indicator of fact or truth worthy of public discourse. Vitriol and invective. Emotionalisms and accusations. That's all you've got. That's all you ever post. No substance. No reasoning. 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: You would rip such a commentary on a study about Mormons to pieces and you would be right to do so and I have seen you do it. Be consistent. You’re spreading disinformation that can hurt people and increases ignorance. The scriptures do not speak well of such people. Be better. Says the guy who endorses actual physical violence against anyone he arbitrarily labels a "nazi" or a "fascist," even including little old Canadian ladies crossing the street. Your moral pronouncements carry no weight with me. None. I could not care less about what you think "better" means. Thanks, -Smac 1
Benjamin McGuire Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 8 minutes ago, smac97 said: I think not. This is not hatred. This is not stigmatization. This is simple disagreement. This is me declining to play along with falsehoods, declining to act as if mental delusions reflect reality. This is me saying, quietly but clearly, that "the emperor has no clothes." Every bigot will claim that not only are they not acting in a bigoted fashion - but that their behavior is justified and perhaps even necessary. The problem here is that you are the emperor. 1
smac97 Posted March 6, 2025 Author Posted March 6, 2025 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Twisting facts is often motivated by hate though. People generally need a motive to lie. Oh no, and the bigots who would swallow this tripe and think it is worth something thought so highly of me before now. They loved me. They carried me through the streets chanting my name in reverence. Vitriol and invective. Emotionalisms and accusations. That's all you've got. That's all you ever post. No substance. No reasoning. 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Also I read history. Transgender rights are not going to be secured based on reasoned analytical study of anti-transgender propaganda any more than Gay Rights, Civil Rights, Women’s Rights, or basic human rights are secured that way. It requires marching, fighting, shooting authoritarians and fascists, court battles, burning things, throwing pies into the faces of bigots, and all the rest. Hopefully it won’t require the more violent options. Sometimes we pull off change without those. Still, I think we should bring back the pie thing. I posted a link to an article and provided some commentary about it. You are publicly endorsing violence and murder as a means of affecting political change. Thanks, -Smac
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 5 minutes ago, smac97 said: There is an element of The Emperor Has No Clothes going on here, hence your comment (intended, I think, to shame me into going along with the falsehood that the emperor has clothes). A biological male does not become a woman simply because he subjectively "identifies" as one. Gender Dysphoria is, AFAICS, the only mental illness that foments a delusion in the individual which the rest of society is, somehow, expected to acknowledge and accommodate as valid. If a biological male can "identify" as a woman, then can Rachel Dolezal and Jessica Krug "identify" as "Black?" Can "Stefoknee Wolscht," a biological male in his 50s, call himself a perpetual six-year-old girl? Can a 5'9" white guy "identify" as a six-foot-tall Chinese woman? Can Eva Tiamat Medusa "identify" as a dragon? Can Naia Ōkami "identify" as a wolf? I think not. This is not hatred. This is not stigmatization. This is simple disagreement. This is me declining to play along with falsehoods, declining to act as if mental delusions reflect reality. This is me saying, quietly but clearly, that "the emperor has no clothes." It is cute how you are pretending to be fighting falsehoods when you can’t even admit the falsehoods in the article you used to start this. Maybe you are the exhibitionist nudist and haven’t caught on yet? Also we have been down this road before. And you know that. We could discuss the difference between biological sex and gender again and how transgender people are not in denial about their biological sex. Or how identifying as a dragon or a wolf is similar to claiming that your body is animated by a divine spirit descended from a deity and how none of those are a denial of having human DNA and a human body. We could do that but you don’t learn anything from it or refine your arguments. You just throw them out again hoping they will stick. Instead you stick with vitriolic takes and oversimplifications that you think undercut their worldview without realizing you are sawing off the branch you yourself are sitting on. If those people are mentally ill just for identifying as a wolf (which does not involve acting like a wolf 24/7) then most religious people are mentally ill for thinking they are under the care of invisible divine beings. They aren’t science/reality deniers which is what you try to paint them as. They have a different worldview that includes mystical or spiritual or psychological elements you find weird. So what? No one is trying to convince you you are a wolf or proselyting about how you should accept the wolf within. Just like no one is trying to convince you you have gender dysphoria and need to start altering your body. Leave other people alone. If you stigmatize incorrect beliefs be careful. Our faith is not a majority in a position to survive if we start making religious and spiritual beliefs into mental disorders. Which is where you are wrong of course. Religious belief is a delusion in which the rest of society is expected to acknowledge and accommodate as valid. This is true even if there is a correct faith. The other faiths are therefore at least partially wrong and are delusional yet we accommodate them as valid and (this is important) have agreed to leave that outside the bounds of medical disorders or politicization because putting it in those arenas will go very very badly. The United States was formed as a liberal democracy partially because of how badly trying to compel and/or prohibit specific religious beliefs was going. 3
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 8 minutes ago, smac97 said: You are publicly endorsing violence and murder as a means of affecting political change. No, I just said that it is often an effective tool to cause change. Monsters like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln knew this. They also probably wished there were other ways but sometimes there aren’t. Such is life.
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2025 Posted March 6, 2025 15 minutes ago, smac97 said: All evidence to the contrary. I cannot recall a single instance of you setting aside your vitriol and snark and having a reasoned, evidence-based discussion and debate. It's just not in you. The OP here shows you can’t even identify what qualifies as evidence so how would you even be able to judge that? 15 minutes ago, smac97 said: I have never condemned transgender people generally (I have specifically condemned people who are, in my view, grooming children by exposing them to highly sexualized stuff at parades, drag shows, etc.). I have some real compassion for people with Gender Dysphoria. Again, that is not how grooming works or has ever worked and calling that grooming has led many to misunderstand what grooming is so they might miss out of catching people who actually are grooming children. So great work everyone on helping out the actual groomers. Thinking you know what is best for other people is not compassion. It is condescension. The cishet man’s burden of educating the savage trans people. I am going to a Drag King show on Friday with some friends. I intend to groom myself before I go but if they choose to give me some extra grooming while I am there I won’t object. 2
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