Stages of eternal progression

[GoCeltics]

What do these paragraphs mean?  They are from the Ensign article “The Father and the Son”.

“And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21–22).

What does being begotten through Christ mean in light of Jesus also being called the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14, 3:16, 1 John 4:9)?

Does partaking of the same glory of Christ mean only the begotten ones become Gods like Christ?

“So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation”.

Did Heavenly Mother and Father become Gods after passing through two estates or were there more?

[Dario_M]

This is what i found on google: 

especially of a man) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.

"they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen"

 

 

So that's a bit of an explanation what the meaning of the word "begotten" means. Btw...you can google it yourself as well. Google is your friend. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Dario_M

[CV75]

7 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

What do these paragraphs mean?  They are from the Ensign article “The Father and the Son”.

“And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21–22).

What does being begotten through Christ mean in light of Jesus also being called the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14, 3:16, 1 John 4:9)?

Does partaking of the same glory of Christ mean only the begotten ones become Gods like Christ?

“So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation”.

Did Heavenly Mother and Father become Gods after passing through two estates or were there more?

Being begotten through Christ means being born again through Him. As a result, they can can become like Christ, meaning joint-heirs with Christ in the Father's presence through Him, or gods.

The second paragraph does say, "the several stages or estates." I think this can refer to just the simple two-estate summary of a person without a physical body (premoratlity, however far back one wishes to take that to include intelligence as the first estate) and with a physical body (mortality, resurrection, kingdom of glory). There are any number of periods and steps along the way even in these two estates.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 12/1/2024 at 10:30 AM, GoCeltics said:

................................

Did Heavenly Mother and Father become Gods after passing through two estates or were there more?

The FIRST ESTATE is the domain of pre-mortal existence with a spiritual body (BofAbraham 3:26,28; Jude 6).  The SECOND ESTATE is mortal, earthly existence with a corporeal body (3:24-25).  All the gods, including Our Heavenly Father & Mother had to pass through both estates.  However, there was no beginning and there shall be no end, and there is an infinity of gods.  Thus, Brigham Young stated in April of 1852, in a sermon in Salt Lake City, that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6).   Hugh Nibley said the following:

Quote

All the worlds are organized in a common pattern, . . in all the worlds you will find God alone rules but with a presidency of three and a council of twelve.  This is the rule of all worlds.  The repetitions are infinite in number and scope . . . .  As a Yeu becomes a Father, the Father then appoints new Yeus (Jehovahs) for new worlds who in turn become Fathers, etc. (cf. First Jeu 48:8; 50:1-3; 97:25-28; Pistis Sophia I, 91, 94; III, 285, 319, 329-330; IV, 355:15,23, 370:10,19,24).

Nibley, "Apocryphal Writings," p. 13 (FARMS Preliminary Report N-APO); see also C. Schmidt & V. MacDermot, Books of Jeu (Leiden: Brill, 1978).

 

[GoCeltics]

On 12/2/2024 at 8:52 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Thus, Brigham Young stated in April of 1852, in a sermon in Salt Lake City, that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6). 

But that was a reference to Adam, not Elohim or Jehovah.

“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do”. 

https://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/pdf/JoD01/JoD01.pdf

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

But that was a reference to Adam, not Elohim or Jehovah.

“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do”. 

https://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/pdf/JoD01/JoD01.pdf

Orson Pratt really got on his case for that Adam-God nonsense, and rightly so.  Today it is Orson's theology which is normative for Latter-day Saints, not Brigham's. Same for race and priesthood.

[GoCeltics]

On 12/4/2024 at 6:00 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Orson Pratt really got on his case for that Adam-God nonsense

 Why wasn't Brigham removed from office for teaching such blasphemy?

[Robert F. Smith]

19 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

 Why wasn't Brigham removed from office for teaching such blasphemy?

Brigham was the boss.  Orson was under his authority.  Humans are flawed.  God works with flawed humans -- that's the economy of God.  It has always been thus.

If you have ever raised children, you know the problem.

[GoCeltics]

On 12/7/2024 at 5:54 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Brigham was the boss.  Orson was under his authority.  Humans are flawed.  God works with flawed humans -- that's the economy of God.  It has always been thus.

What could have been God's purpose in allowing Brigham to stay in a leadership position and continue leading his followers astray?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

What could have been God's purpose in allowing Brigham to stay in a leadership position and continue leading his followers astray?

To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, just as with everyone else. NOTE: only the first half of this question is a question. The second half presupposes a false assumption / conclusion. This is a logical fallacy of some kind.

Edited December 8, 2024 by CV75

[GoCeltics]

On 12/8/2024 at 5:26 PM, CV75 said:

To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, just as with everyone else. NOTE: only the first half of this question is a question. The second half presupposes a false assumption / conclusion. This is a logical fallacy of some kind.

If Brigham's teaching that Adam is God our Father is false, then he led those who believed him astray.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

If Brigham's teaching that Adam is God our Father is false, then he led those who believed him astray.

That logic is faulty as well. A "simple" enough assertion, though, as logical fallacies tend to be.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

If Brigham's teaching that Adam is God our Father is false, then he led those who believed him astray.

That would depend on what was meant by astray and why they went there.

There are those we view as apostate who accept Brigham’s teaching on Adam-God as true or at least their version of it.  We might assume that they went astray because of their belief in Brigham as a prophet.  But they picked certain beliefs to accept and other teachings of Brigham to reject and is that Brigham leading them astray or their own choices?

Edited December 11, 2024 by Calm

[Gapper]

35 years ago I was in a meeting on my mission with zone leaders, my companion and the Mission President. There was Neal A. Maxwell and Rex D. Pinegar. They were teaching and sharing how to spread the gospel using members and following the promptings of the Holy Ghost and teaching that the most important thing we could learn on our mission was to learn to hear the voice of the Lord through the Holy Ghost and then to obey it.

Elder Pinegar then taught us the plan of salvation in a way that I have never been taught before. He went through each stage and discussed it in depth. He focused that the entire plan is made to help you and me to become as our Savior and our Heavenly Father are, to have eternal life, Their life. We do that by helping others to obtain it and are consecrated to that purpose in mortality.  Eventually he got to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and explained what is required of us to get to that point, to yield all of ourselves and to consecrate ourselves to the purpose of our Father, to bring to pass eternal life for others . . . He then said after the resurrection those that obtain the highest degree of the Celestial Glory will continue on into the next stage of the plan and . . . at that point Elder Maxwell said "Rex, that is enough. We don't teach what comes after that point." Elder Maxwell then said "Yes, there is more to the plan, but that is revealed by the Father through the Savior when we are ready and prepared to receive that knowledge. For now, just focus on yielding yourself to the Lord for the rest of your life and learning to obey the voice of the Holy Ghost. That is enough for each of us."

I personally have received revelation on what occurs after that point, but as I am not a prophet or an apostle, I am not authorized to share that and thus do not teach it. There are things that we learn that are taught to us for us, so we may understand and become even more committed to the plan ourselves. So what happens in depth after we obtain the celestial kingdom and it's highest degree I figure all will be made known to me IF I through the Savior obtain that state with my dear wife. Until then, I am still working on hearing Him and obeying Him to fulfill the covenants I have made and I find that is enough.

[GoCeltics]

On 12/11/2024 at 6:25 PM, Calm said:

But they picked certain beliefs to accept and other teachings of Brigham to reject and is that Brigham leading them astray or their own choices?

Everyone has the freedom to choose to believe in false teachings, but I don’t know anyone who consciously chooses to accept something they know is false and then willingly follows it. People are misled by deception.

[GoCeltics]

On 12/11/2024 at 2:19 PM, CV75 said:

That logic is faulty as well. A "simple" enough assertion, though, as logical fallacies tend to be.

Tell me how a false teacher leads someone astray in your opinion.

[InCognitus]

9 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

Everyone has the freedom to choose to believe in false teachings, but I don’t know anyone who consciously chooses to accept something they know is false and then willingly follows it. People are misled by deception.

It's not always that simple.

Humans tend to want things to make sense to them, and people will interpret teachings to fit their own way of thinking.  In that way it doesn't start out as a dishonest approach or even deception, but eventually some of those interpretations get passed down as actual doctrines (even though some of it may be false doctrines), and people many generations later simply accept the teachings based on tradition.

In addition to the above, humans also tend to react in extreme ways to teachings they perceive as false doctrine, and in their extreme reaction to the false teachings they establish ways of reinterpreting their prior teachings so that the perceived false teachings are counteracted completely.  And in doing this they sometimes err in the opposite direction (and thus create false doctrines of their own).  Again, this is not because someone is trying to deceive them, but they are deceiving themselves by their own desire to be right and counteract the teaching they perceive to be false.

[rodheadlee]

On 12/8/2024 at 10:53 AM, GoCeltics said:

What could have been God's purpose in allowing Brigham to stay in a leadership position?

What year did Brigham Young say that? Brigham Young was instrumental in bringing the railroad and the church to Utah. Amongst other things. Perhaps establishing Utah as a home base for the church was more important than a mistake in the Adam God teaching? The way I understand it is Brigham Young required the railroad to run a line up into Idaho and one down into Arizona in order to one run across Utah. I don't know if this teaching is correct but I believe so.

Edited December 17, 2024 by rodheadlee

[Mfbnew]

On 12/11/2024 at 9:34 AM, GoCeltics said:

If Brigham's teaching that Adam is God our Father is false, then he led those who believed him astray.

OK let's teach some doctrine for a change OK?

Brigham was not "wrong" - he just was teaching using words and points of view which are now "out of date".

Does anyone dispute that Jesus and Eloheim are ONE IN PURPOSE?

Do you know "Eloheim" means in Hebrew?

Here is a quick AI definition on the latter question:

Quote

Elohim (אֱלֹהִים) is a Hebrew word that means "gods" or "godhood". It is the plural of the word ʾĔlōah (אֱלוֹהַּ). In the Hebrew Bible, elohim is often used to refer to a single deity, such as the God of Israel, but it can also refer to the gods of other nations or to multiple deities. 

Jesus and Eloheim are ONE IN PURPOSE.  Clearly Adam was made in "the image" of Eloheim - as we ALL are.

Every one of us is a kind of imprint of God the Father AND Jesus Christ.   To be "a god" is to be human- a god in embryo- and we know that doctrine.

If you have been to the temple recently, you know or could know that it now says that the story of Adam and Eve can be interpreted as the journey of "Everyman" - in which we all are tempted, and experience our own individual "falls" from being close to Father (Pre-existence) to being here on earth - AND having agency which allows us to make the choices to become god-like or go the other way.

Like all of us, Adam was  one with God Eloheim- whose very name implies multiple gods- when he first came to earth- YES he WAS a "god" before the fall- and the fall itself was necessary for him to follow the entire path and turn himself from being a mini god in embryo to "grow up" and become an exalted human and BE ONE with Eloheim- as a "multiple deity"- just as Eloheim is with the resurrected Jesus is. 

This "being one with God " can get a little tricky.   

So yes ADAM- and all of us- are "gods" at first- and if we are exalted we will be with God- in the Council of the Gods and in His throne- being one in purpose as Jesus is now.od

So Adam was god in embryo as we all were/ working on the path.   Adam WAS (a) god.

That's my interpretation, and I'm stickin' to it!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Mfbnew

[Mfbnew]

Oops!

Edited December 17, 2024 by Mfbnew

[GoCeltics]

14 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

Like all of us, Adam was  one with God Eloheim- whose very name implies multiple gods- when he first came to earth- YES he WAS a "god" before the fall- and the fall itself was necessary for him to follow the entire path and turn himself from being a mini god in embryo to "grow up" and become an exalted human and BE ONE with Eloheim- as a "multiple deity"- just as Eloheim is with the resurrected Jesus is. 

I see what you mean.  Like a mini god becomes a grown-up God.

[GoCeltics]

On 12/15/2024 at 4:43 PM, InCognitus said:

In addition to the above, humans also tend to react in extreme ways to teachings they perceive as false doctrine, and in their extreme reaction to the false teachings they establish ways of reinterpreting their prior teachings so that the perceived false teachings are counteracted completely.  And in doing this they sometimes err in the opposite direction (and thus create false doctrines of their own).  Again, this is not because someone is trying to deceive them, but they are deceiving themselves by their own desire to be right and counteract the teaching they perceive to be false.

Were people who perceived Brigham's teaching of Adam being God our Father as truth deceiving themselves if that teaching is actually false?

Edited December 17, 2024 by GoCeltics
to clarify the question

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

Were people who perceived Brigham's teaching of Adam being God our Father as truth deceiving themselves if that teaching is actually false?

As I was saying, it's not always that simple.  People misunderstand teachings all the time.  All of us have incomplete understandings of the things of God.  But where it can become a false doctrine is when a person takes their own interpretation of a doctrine and teaches it to others as the one and only way to understand a particular teaching.  

[CV75]

On 12/15/2024 at 4:23 PM, GoCeltics said:

Tell me how a false teacher leads someone astray in your opinion.

That depends on many factors including semantics and contexts. Do you have a particular incident in mind?

[GoCeltics]

On 12/17/2024 at 1:03 PM, CV75 said:

That depends on many factors including semantics and contexts. Do you have a particular incident in mind?

Nothing in particular.