Trib Opinion Piece Re: Church's Trans Policies

[Rain]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

Out of the more than 500,000 athletes that compete in the National Collegiate Athletic Association, an estimated 4o are trans. That's less than 0.008 percent.Apr 16, 2024

I assumed what you quoted here was the same group you talked about here "Found out that in all of the multi thousands of championships and since there are a half million women in college sports alone, there have only been 23 trans women who have won national and international titles."

[smac97]

14 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

Quote

I would like to hear the thoughts of people with varying perspectives on trans issues in relation to this Opinion piece published today in the Salt Lake Tribune: 

It's wonderful that you read the newspaper.  It seems that most of your numerous posts are based on the Tribune.

"Seems" being the operative word.  I don't think this perception is accurate.  I cite to all sorts of "scholarly" sources in my posts here.  You don't have to take my word for it.  Here is a list of the threads I have started, and here is a list of my posts.  The vast majority of them are based on topics and sources originating outside the Tribune.

That's not to say that I don't use the Trib as a resource.  It writes frequently about the Church, so I frequently come across that content.

14 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

It would be nice to see more posts from you that are based on something a bit more scholarly

I frequently cite to "scholarly" sources.  In this thread alone:

• I cited the National Library of Medicine, Frontiers in Psychology, the American Psychological Association here.
• I cited the British Medical Journal multiple times, including here and here.
• I cited Dr. Paul McHugh's SCOTUS Amicus Brief (which extensively cited various "scholarly" sources) here.
• I cited an article by Ryan T. Anderson (a PhD) (which extensively cited various "scholarly" sources) here.
• I cited Gender dysphoria and psychiatric comorbidities in childhood: a systematic review here.
• I cited The Cass Report here.
• I cited an article published in The Hill (which extensively cited various "scholarly" sources) here.
• I cited an article published on DoNoHarmMedicine.org, centering on an interview with a medical doctor, here.

I also cite to various other sources of information and commentary as well. 

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by smac97

[california boy]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

I assumed what you quoted here was the same group you talked about here "Found out that in all of the multi thousands of championships and since there are a half million women in college sports alone, there have only been 23 trans women who have won national and international titles."

Oh ok.  I think I understand your question.  When I went back and look at the 23 trans women who won national and international titles, I could only identify 2 who won titles in college sports.

Quote

 

CeCé Telfer

Telfer won the Division II NCAA championship in the 400-meter hurdles as a senior at Franklin Pierce University in 2019. She was named Outsports’ Female Athlete of the Year that year. @cecetelfer

Lia Thomas

The University of Pennsylvania swimmer won a national NCAA Division I title in the 500 freestyle and made it to the final heat of the 100-free and 200-free.

 

 

 

[smac97]

18 hours ago, california boy said:

What percent of female athletes are trans?

 

Quote

For starters, consider the strikingly minuscule number of total trans athletes, let alone trans women competing in collegiate athletics: Out of the more than 500,000 athletes that compete in the National Collegiate Athletic Association, an estimated 4o are trans. That's less than 0.008 percent.Apr 16, 2024

So how have these "strikingly minuscule number{s} of total trans athletes" fared in competing in women's sports?

KFox14 News: UN study reveals transgender athletes have won nearly 900 medals in women's competitions

Quote

The U.N. says transgender athletes competing in women's athletic events have won nearly 900 medals over their competitors, according to the results of a study obtained by The National News Desk (TNND).

The 20-page document examined “violence against women and girls in sports” and claims more than 600 biologically female athletes have lost at least 890 medals to transgender competitors. These defeats occurred in over 400 competitions in 29 sports, though authors did not specify specific events, levels of competition or time periods.

Authors of the U.N. study said the creation of “mixed sex” competitions has disadvantaged biologically female athletes who take on transgender opponents.

“Male athletes have specific attributes considered advantageous in certain sports, such as strength and testosterone levels which are higher than the average range for females even before puberty, thereby resulting in the loss of fair opportunity,” the study reads. “To avoid the loss of a fair opportunity, males must not compete in the female categories of sport.”

Biologically female athletes, the study reads, are often tested by their sport’s governing bodies to ensure they are not using performance-enhancing drugs, such as testosterone. Biologically male athletes, however, are only subject to “arbitrary and asymmetrical” testosterone requirements, which the study says creates an imbalanced playing field compared to biologically female competitors.
...

The findings were among a number of examples of threats the study authors say biologically female athletes are facing, including violence and exclusion from their sports. In the study’s conclusions, authors noted a need for competitions that are “exclusively accessible to persons whose biological sex is female.”

“In cases where the sex of an athlete is unknown or uncertain, a dignified, swift, non-invasive, and accurate sex screening method (such as a cheek swap) should be applied as well as where necessary for exceptional reasons, genetic testing to confirm the athlete’s sex,” the study reads. “In non-professional sports spaces the original birth certificates for verification may be appropriate. In some exceptional circumstances, such tests may need to be followed up by more complex tests."

"Refrain from subjecting anyone to invasive sex screening or forcing a person to lower testosterone levels to compete in any category," the authors concluded.

National Review: Female Athletes Lost Almost 900 Medals to Trans-Identifying Men Worldwide, U.N. Report Finds

Quote

Female athletes worldwide have lost nearly 900 medals to transgender-identifying male competitors who have intruded into women’s sports.

Titled “Violence against women and girls in sports,” the August study conducted by the United Nations found that by March 30, 2024, over 600 female athletes in more than 400 women’s division events across 29 different sports were defeated by transgender-identifying men. Male athletes have taken over 890 medals from female athletes, the report said.
...
Created by U.N. Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls, Reem Alsalem, the report was presented to the U.N. General Assembly last week. Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) International was also at the U.N. with prominent female athletes to demand that the body protect safety and fairness in women’s sports. The event featured Olympic swimmer Sharron Davies, U.S. collegiate athlete Lainey Armistead, ADF International CEO Kristen Waggoner, and Alsalem.
...

Addressing the General Assembly, Alsalem noted that male intrusion into women’s sports has raised the risk of sexual harassment, assault, and voyeurism not just in the sporting arena but in the locker room and bathroom.

“As patriarchal structures continue to evolve, women and girls in sport are experiencing new forms of discrimination based on their sex,” she said. “One glaring example is opening the female category of sports to males, further undermining their access to equal opportunities and the right to participate in safety, dignity and fairness.”
...
Multiple female athletes have been injured by transgender-identifying competitors. Payton McNabb, a female former high-school volleyball player from North Carolina, suffered a concussion and other long-term health problems after a trans-identifying male spiked a ball at her head. In April 2023, McNabb testified to the North Carolina legislature that she still experiences impaired vision, partial paralysis on one side of her body, anxiety, and depression from the fact that she stopped competing altogether due to the physical and mental trauma.
...
“This isn’t about transgenderism,” Heather Thyng, the mother of a Hillsboro-Deering player, told the outlet. “This is about biology for us and the increased physical risk when playing a full contact sport against the opposing sex.”

Also, the number of "trans women" athletes seems to be a bit bigger than "strikingly minuscule."

Women's Sports Policy: 578+ Male* Victories in Female Sports: A Nine-Month Tally

Quote

Why should any female athlete relinquish her sports dream to make room for a male? Regardless of gender identity, males have performance advantages over females. And female athletes are still being treated less favorably than male athletes at every turn. We must not diminish females’ opportunities, placings, finals, podiums, prizes, or financial rewards, nor their right to fair, safe, sex-separated sports experiences.

UPDATE: After tracking incursions into girls’ and women’s sports spaces for nine months, we abandoned this project — but not our commitment to girls and women — because there are simply too many male victories. Fortunately, HeCheated.org has now created a robust tally. As of September 2024, they’ve logged 5,149 males in women’s sports, and you can sort by sport, level, place, etc.

"5,149 males in women's sports."

Wow.  Wow.

The foregoing site apparently stopped doing updates in January 2024, so this figure is likely even bigger now.

And the concerns here are not limited to just whether or not trans women (that is, biological males) are winning at these competitions.  Safety and others issues are also in view.

New York Post: The staggering number of medals female athletes lost to trans opponents revealed in explosive UN report

Quote

Female athletes have lost nearly 900 medals to transgender rivals competing against them in women’s sporting categories, an eye-opening United Nations report has revealed.

The study — titled “Violence against women and girls in sports” — stated that more than 600 female athletes have been bested at various events by competitors who were born male.

“According to information received, by 30 March 2024, over 600 female athletes in more than 400 competitions have lost more than 890 medals in 29 different sports,” the report said.
...

The wide-ranging report, compiled by Reem Alsalem, the UN special rapporteur on violence against women and girls, was presented to the UN General Assembly earlier this month.

The paper didn’t elaborate on at what sporting events the medals were won, or over what time frame.
...

Alsalem presented the findings as she called on the UN to implement stronger protections for women and girls in sports.

The independent expert argued that open categories should be created for sports and that “non-invasive, confidential and simple sex screenings” are necessary to ensure inclusivity and guarantee fairness for women.

Separate from the trans debate, Alsalem argued that females also face what she referred to as “multiple forms of violence” when it comes to sports.

In particular, she offered up harmful social stereotypes, pervasive sexism and limited access to training facilities, infrastructure and resources as examples.

“Women and girls already have many odds stacked against them that impede their equal and effective participation in sports. In addition, their ability to play sport in conditions of safety, dignity and fairness has been further eroded by the intrusion of males who identify as female in female-only sports and related spaces,” Alsalem said.

From HeCheated.org's "Injury Report": 

Quote

“Trans”-identifying male Gabriel “Lazuli” Clark forced Lowell Collegiate Charter School to forfeit in a high school basketball game against KIPP Academy in February of 2023 after he injured three of their female players before halftime.

Video surfaced of one of the injuries in which the 6-foot Clark can be seen easily overpowering his much smaller female opponent, wrenching the ball out of her hands and tossing her to the floor where she was left writhing in pain.

Clark had previously been kicked off a girls’ rowing team for sexual harassment after he had been caught staring at girls who were partially undressed in the women’s changing room and making lewd comments towards them.
...

In his sixth and final fight in women's MMA in 2014, “trans”-identifying male Boyd Burton, aka “Fallon Fox,” broke the skull of his female opponent, fracturing her orbital bone in an injury that also required 7 staples. It happened in the first round. Burton was 38 years old at the time while the female athlete he injured, Tamikka Brents, was 26.

Media outlets quickly moved to support Burton/Fox, Outsports going so far as to argue that the use of the word “skull” and “fracture” used in reports of the incident was a direct attack by “transphobes” against him and other men playing women's sports.

Rumors circulated that Burton/Fox had broken two women’s skulls. While false, the media again downplayed the severity of the situation and the clear danger men in women's MMA present to female athletes by emphasizing that it was only one woman's orbital bone that had been shattered, not two, and that other female athletes have caused similar injuries as well.

They failed to mention that male punching power has been reported to be 162% greater than female, which equates to a much greater risk of severe injury and more damage caused with a hit to the face.

Burton/Fox responded to criticism of his participation in the women's divison by issuing a statement in which he declared that he enjoyed engaging in violence against women.

"For the record, I knocked two out. One woman's skull was fractured, the other not. And just so you know, I enjoyed it. See, I love smacking up TEFS (sic) in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It's bliss!”- Boyd Burton aka "Fallon Fox"
...

According to a 28-page report from Fair Play for Women documenting personal testimonies from female athletes and the family members of female athletes who have had to compete with and against males in the women’s division, one mother described several girls suffering injuries from a 6ft, 224lb unnamed male who had joined a three-day women’s judo training course. He broke the finger of one female athlete and dislocated the shoulder of another.

The mother described how her a daughter, a world medalist judo athlete, gave up the sport after the encounter.

"Nobody mentioned the 6ft, 16st transwoman on the course, who went on to immediately break the finger of one woman, dislocate the shoulder of another and throw my daughter around the mat like a terrier with a rat in its mouth. My daughter gave up judo that day.” - Mother of a Female Athlete

Quite a few more at the link.  

Pretty troubling stuff.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 3, 2024 by smac97

[california boy]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

So how have these "strikingly minuscule number{s} of total trans athletes" fared in competing in women's sports?

KFox14 News: UN study reveals transgender athletes have won nearly 900 medals in women's competitions

National Review: Female Athletes Lost Almost 900 Medals to Trans-Identifying Men Worldwide, U.N. Report Finds

Also, the number of "trans women" athletes seems to be a bit bigger than "strikingly minuscule."

Women's Sports Policy: 578+ Male* Victories in Female Sports: A Nine-Month Tally

"5,149 males in women's sports."

Wow.  Wow.

The foregoing site apparently stopped doing updates in January 2024, so this figure is likely even bigger now.

And the concerns here are not limited to just whether or not trans women (that is, biological males) are winning at these competitions.  Safety and others issues are also in view.

New York Post: The staggering number of medals female athletes lost to trans opponents revealed in explosive UN report

From HeCheated.org's "Injury Report": 

Quite a few more at the link.  

Pretty troubling stuff.

Thanks,

-Smac

This is quite different than what I have been reading.  Could you actually provide links to the medal titles and studies?  When I looked up your UN report, it came up with a report by Fox News which isn't particularly known for reporting truthful news.  You do remember them claiming to not be a news agency but write stories for entertainment purposes when sued and settled for $785 million dollars.  I went to the UN web page to try and find the study.  All I could find is this study about Trans athletes calling for an end to discrimination against trans athletes.  

If you actually have found these studies, could you please provide an actual link to the studies?  I would really like to find accurate information on this subject rather than hit pieces that don't actually link to studies they are claiming.

Edited December 3, 2024 by california boy

[Doctor Steuss]

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

This is quite different than what I have been reading.  Could you actually provide links to the medal titles and studies?  When I looked up your UN report, it came up with a report by Fox News which isn't particularly known for reporting truthful news.  You do remember them claiming to not be a news agency but write stories for entertainment purposes when sued and settled for $785 million dollars.  I went to the UN web page to try and find the study.  All I could find is this study about Trans athletes calling for an end to discrimination against trans athletes.  

If you actually have found these studies, could you please provide an actual link to the studies?  I would really like to find accurate information on this subject rather than hit pieces that don't actually link to studies they are claiming.

From my brief glance of the study (PDF direct link below), the numbers mentioned were for mixed-gender events.  They weren't for women's events where trans athletes completed.  In other words, these included cis-gendered male and female athletes as well as (potentially) trans-gendered athletes.  Here's the most relevant quote that I found (again, in a brief glance):

Quote

The replacement of the female sports category with a mixed-sex category has resulted in an increasing number of female athletes losing opportunities, including medals, when competing against males. According to information received, by 30 March 2024, over 600 female athletes in more than 400 competitions have lost more than 890 medals in 29 different sports.

Incidentally, I think it's interesting that the Report doesn't mention how many men lost out to women competitors in mixed-sex category events.  If it's more than 890 medals in 29 different sports, to me that's much more interesting (although less fertile ground for rage fodder). 

Have international sports bodies done away with female categories?  The footnote is to a link on a UK-based advocacy group's website (Women In Sport), which is a dead link.  I can't find the page under their site map either.  I'm just curious if these supposed examples were from sports bodies doing away with gender/sex classifications altogether, or only got rid of the women's only category (which would seem really strange, if they kept the men's only category).

PDF Warning - Direct Link

[smac97]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

This is quite different than what I have been reading.  Could you actually provide links to the medal titles and studies?  

A/79/325: Report of the Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls, its causes and consequences - Violence against women and girls in sports

Sections III(A)(7), III(B), III(C), III(E)(18), III(G)(24), III(I)(27), III(K)(30), III(L)(31), III(M), IV(68), VII(A)(72), and VII(B)(76) all address trans issues in women's sports.

Section VII(F) deals with the "Rights of transgender persons."  The key portion, I think, is in paragraph 85.

Section VIII(90)  (part of "Conclusions and recommendations") includes the following proposals (emphases added) : 

Quote

(b) Ensure that female categories in organized sport are exclusively accessible to persons whose biological sex is female. In cases where the sex of an athlete is unknown or uncertain, a dignified, swift, non-invasive and accurate sex screening method (such as a cheek swab) or, where necessary for exceptional reasons, genetic testing should be applied to confirm the athlete’s sex. In non-professional sports spaces, the original birth certificates for verification may be appropriate. In some exceptional circumstances, such tests may need to be followed up by more complex tests;
...
(d) Ensure the inclusive participation of all persons wishing to play sports, through the creation of open categories for those persons who do not wish to compete in the category of their biological sex, or convert the male category into an open category;

(e) Protect the female category in sport and implement consistent testing for doping and artificially increased levels of testosterone, without exception. 

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 3, 2024 by smac97

[smac97]

A recent development re: JK Rowling: J.K. Rowling Lambasts NY Times Downplaying Violent Threats She Faces for Calling Out Transgender Agenda

Quote

“Harry Potter” author J.K. Rowling lambasted the New York Times downplaying violent threats she received for calling out the transgender agenda.

“The rewriting of history begins,” Rowling began in a Monday X post, sharing a screenshot of a New York Times article, headlined, “Transgender Activists Question the Movement’s Confrontational Approach.”

The New York Times article, published last week, cited the “Harry Potter” author, saying, “When J.K. Rowling said that denying any relationship between sex and biology was ‘deeply misogynistic and regressive,’ a prominent L.G.B.T.Q. group accused her of betraying ‘real feminism.'”

The article also noted, “To get on the wrong side of transgender activists is often to endure their unsparing criticism,” adding that some transgender activists “say it is time to rethink and recalibrate their confrontational ways, and are pushing back against the more all-or-nothing voices in their coalition.”

Rowling's response on X:

Quote

The rewriting of history begins.

Opponents of gender ideology haven't merely 'endured unsparing criticism'. I haven't simply been told I 'betrayed real feminism' or received a few book-burning videos. 

I've been sent thousands of threats of murder, rape and violence. A trans woman posted my family's home address with a bomb-making guide. My eldest child was targeted by a prominent trans activist who attempted to doxx her and ended up doxxing the wrong young woman. I could write a twenty thousand word essay on what the consequences have been to me and my family, and what we've endured is NOTHING compared to the harm done to others. 

By standing up to a movement that relies on threats of violence, ostracisation and guilt-by-association, all of us have been smeared and defamed, but many have lost their livelihoods. Some have been physically assaulted by trans activists. Female politicians have been forced to hire personal security on the advice of police. The news that one of the UK's leading endocrinologists, Dr Hillary Cass, was advised not to travel by public transport for her own safety should shame everyone who let this insanity run amok. 

Lest we forget, gender apostates have been targeted for crimes such as doubting the evidential basis for transitioning children, for arguing for fair sport for women and girls, for wanting to retain single sex spaces and services, especially for the most vulnerable, and for thinking it barbaric to lock in female prisoners with convicted male sex offenders.

Now the political landscape has shifted, and some who've been riding high on their own supply are waking up with a hell of a hangover. They've started wondering whether calling left-wing feminists who wanted all-female rape centres 'Nazis' was such a smart strategy. Maybe parents arguing that boys ought not to be robbing their daughters of sporting opportunities might, sort of, have a point? Possibly letting any man who says 'I'm a woman' into the locker room with twelve-year-old girls could have a downside, after all?

Mealy-mouthed retconning of what has actually happened over the past ten years is predictable but will not stand. I don't doubt those who've turned a blind eye to the purges of non-believers, or even applauded and encouraged them, would rather minimise what the true cost of speaking out was, but 'yes, maybe trans activists went a little over the top at times' takes are frankly insulting. A full reckoning on the effects of gender ideology on individuals, society and politics is still a long way off, but I know this: the receipts will make very ugly reading when that time comes, and there are far too many of them to sweep politely under the carpet.

Very troubling, this.

Thanks,

-Smac

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Doctor Steuss said:

From my brief glance of the study (PDF direct link below), the numbers mentioned were for mixed-gender events.  They weren't for women's events where trans athletes completed.  In other words, these included cis-gendered male and female athletes as well as (potentially) trans-gendered athletes.  Here's the most relevant quote that I found (again, in a brief glance):

Incidentally, I think it's interesting that the Report doesn't mention how many men lost out to women competitors in mixed-sex category events.  If it's more than 890 medals in 29 different sports, to me that's much more interesting (although less fertile ground for rage fodder). 

Have international sports bodies done away with female categories?  The footnote is to a link on a UK-based advocacy group's website (Women In Sport), which is a dead link.  I can't find the page under their site map either.  I'm just curious if these supposed examples were from sports bodies doing away with gender/sex classifications altogether, or only got rid of the women's only category (which would seem really strange, if they kept the men's only category).

PDF Warning - Direct Link

That makes more sense. I think there are a lot of sports where gender doesn't really make a difference, like dart throwing or frizzbee golf or billiards etc that was noted in the previous article.  It wouldn't appear to me that physical strength has as much to do with winning as skill.

[The Nehor]

23 hours ago, tana said:

 Maybe someone has already said this but, I think it is OK for a person to simultaneously hold viewpoints of supporting transgenderism but not supporting transitioned males competing in certain sanctioned sports against females.

And professional and college sports leagues are developing those standards or determining they don’t need them. There is no need for activism about it. At the Middle and High school levels just let them play sports.

[The Nehor]

On 12/2/2024 at 11:21 AM, smac97 said:

I suspect these things are hard to pin down because they are so nebulous.  Once the sexual binary is set aside in favor of some notion of a "spectrum," then we are situated all over the place.  And the placement is pretty much entirely subjective and self-diagnosed.  And the placement seems changeable over time.

Yeah, and that is fine.

On 12/2/2024 at 11:21 AM, smac97 said:

Per this article, 40% of "trans" people describe themselves as "trans, nonbinary" and 22% as "trans, gender non-conforming" (notably, the article does not define either of these categories), with "trans men" and "trans women" at 22% and 12%, respectively.

They are describing themselves. No need to define.

On 12/2/2024 at 11:21 AM, smac97 said:

"They" being trans men?  I suppose so.  

Really?  How many?

42

On 12/2/2024 at 11:21 AM, smac97 said:

Wikipedia has a list of "Transgender sportsmen," most of whom competed as women and/or against women, with very, very few in men's sports:

• Kye Allums - Trans man, college athlete (basketball), competed against women.
• Hergie Bacyadan - Trans man, boxer and kickboxer, "has competed in the women's division in all sports."
• Schuyler Bailar - Trans man, college athlete (swimming), swam all four years against men, per this article "finish{ed} last in every race in 2016, Bailar ended his swimming career at Harvard in the top 13% in the country in the men's breaststroke."
• Mack Beggs - Trans man, high school / college athlete (wrestling), wrestled in both women's and men's categories.
• Pierre Brésolles - Trans man, runner, competed against women.
• Harrison Browne - Trans man, pro ice hockey, competed against women.
• Balian Buschbaum - Trans man, pole vaulter, competed against women.
• Léon Caurla - Trans man, runner, competed against women.
• Leonard Chalmers - Trans man, Olympic athlete, competed against women.
• Willy De Bruyn - Trans man, Belgian cyclist, competed against women.
• Fenix FC (Catalonia) - "[A} Spanish Regional League fifth-tier football team consisting entirely of trans men. ... The team played their first official match against Palleja CF B {a men's team} on September 21, 2024 and lost 19-0."
• Keelin Godsey - Trans man, hammer throw, competed against women.
• Ellia Green - Trans man,  Australian rugby union and rugby league player, competed against women.
• Edwin Halstead - Trans man, javelin, competed against women.
• Iszac Henig - Trans man, swimmer, competed against both women and men, as to the latter, "he swam in the June 2022 Ohio State Invitational, he took from 69th to 79th places in the 50, 100, and 200-yard men's freestyle events."
• Kagetsu - Trans man, wrestler, competed against women.
• Zdeněk Koubek - Trans man, track athlete, competed against women.
• Andreas Krieger - Trans man, shot put, competed against women.
• Luca Kumahara - Trans man, table tennis, competed against women.
• Patricio Manuel - Trans man, professional boxer, boxed in both women's and men's categories.
• Chris Mosier - Trans man, triathlete, duathlete, and racewalker, competed in both women's and men's categories.
• Jay Mulucha - Trans man, basketball, competed against women.
• Alex Poon - Trans man, competed in both women's (swimming) and men's (water polo) categories.
• Ricardo del Real - Trans man, Olympic taekwondo athlete, competed against women.
• Leon Reuterström - Trans man, ice hockey, competed against women.
• Loui Sand - Trans man, handball, competed in both women's and men's categories.
• Go Shindo - Trans man, pro boxer, competed against women.
• Witold Smętek - Trans man, "javelin thrower, runner, handball player, table tennis player," competed against women.
• Verity Smith - Trans man, rugby, competed against women.
• Mark Weston (athlete) - Trans man, field athlete, competed against women.
• Kumi Yokoyama - Trans man, footballer, competed against women.

I think a list of trans women - biological males - competing in women's sports would not only be considerably longer, but they are doing a lot better than the very few trans men - biological women - competing against men.

You think or you looked it up. I am not going to try to refute your guesses again.

On 12/2/2024 at 11:21 AM, smac97 said:

Could you provide a list?  I would like to better understand this.

A list of what? Online articles raging against transwomen destroying women’s sports? You have posted articles about this. So have many others here. Now you need me to find them? What? I’ll pass. I don’t need more transphobia in my life.

[The Nehor]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

The small number of actual players can backfire though as I can see an argument that allowing trans players creates significant additional work and concerns for a multitude of people while benefiting very few, so better overall not to allow them.

Or whatever variation of few benefit, so not worth it argument.

As in if there are only a couple of kids in the whole state, why change the rules?  It wouldn’t make sense to spend a ton of money for ramps to be included in every school if only one or two out of a hundred schools actually needed one, for example.

(I am not making or against this argument, just stating it, so not going into details).  Am curious about responses.

Having literally no trangender people competing in High School sports hasn’t stopped some states from trying to pass legislation to ban them. That takes work. Letting kids play sports just involves letting them play sports.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

That makes more sense. I think there are a lot of sports where gender doesn't really make a difference, like dart throwing or frizzbee golf or billiards etc that was noted in the previous article.  It wouldn't appear to me that physical strength has as much to do with winning as skill.

I'm not very familiar with frisbee golf. Do pretty much all men or women players at the top of their categories throw the same distance? 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Having literally no trangender people competing in High School sports hasn’t stopped some states from trying to pass legislation to ban them. That takes work. Letting kids play sports just involves letting them play sports.

Yes, it shows a likely gut reaction rather than a thoughtful one.  I expect the laws written are going to therefore have some unintended consequences similar to how Title IX  was expected to help promote women in sports but ended up with far fewer female coaches instead, up to 90% less in head coach positions as men are seen for some reason as better qualified for the coaching jobs of women’s teams that now were worth it for the money.

Edited December 4, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Having literally no trangender people competing in High School sports hasn’t stopped some states from trying to pass legislation to ban them. That takes work. Letting kids play sports just involves letting them play sports.

I would much rather it happen before a child gets involved whatever the legislation is about.  No one wants their child to be the poster child. This isn't to say I disagree or agree with any particular legislation. 

Edited December 4, 2024 by Rain

[Calm]

Has anyone ever proposed writing the law to allow only women to coach women’s teams, out of curiosity?  
 

Thus allowing female athletes to anticipate more likely getting a job in the field rather than just opening up more opportunities for men to make money?

I also wonder how much abuse would be eliminated by on,y allowing women to coach female only teams.

Edited December 4, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Yes, it shows a gut reaction rather than a thoughtful one.  I expect the laws written are going to therefore have some unintended consequences similar to how Title IX  was expected to help promote women in sports but ended up with fewer female coaches, up to 90% less in head coach positions as men are seen for some reason as better qualified for the coaching jobs of both men’s and women’s teams that now were worth it for the money.

It may show a gut reaction. Often does, but just because the legislation is there first doesn't mean it is not thoughtful especially when you are learning from other states and countries 

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Rain said:

It may show a gut reaction. Often does, but just because the legislation is there first doesn't mean it is not thoughtful especially when you are learning from other states and countries 

Yes, I rewrote it after reading your previous post.   

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I'm not very familiar with frisbee golf. Do pretty much all men or women players at the top of their categories throw the same distance? 

It is played basically like golf except you are throwing a frisbee to a target like a hoop or something.  You get a stroke for each attempts until you hit the target.  Here are the official rules if you are interested.   People play it at the park and beaches all the in California.  Informally, you just set up targets for the space you have.  I haven't seen professional Frisbee Golf, but I am guessing there are a set number of targets you have to hit.  If you can throw a Frisbee with some accuracy, you can be competitive.  It is not a distance thing like golf can be.  My experience is that women throw just as good as boys depending on their experience level.

Fun to play.  You should try it sometime.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Quote

Per this article, 40% of "trans" people describe themselves as "trans, nonbinary" and 22% as "trans, gender non-conforming" (notably, the article does not define either of these categories), with "trans men" and "trans women" at 22% and 12%, respectively.

They are describing themselves. No need to define.

When legal rights are in play, definitions and parameters are generally necessary.

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Quote

I think a list of trans women - biological males - competing in women's sports would not only be considerably longer, but they are doing a lot better than the very few trans men - biological women - competing against men.

You think or you looked it up.

The former ,and then the latter.  See above ("5,149 males in women's sports.").

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Quote

Quote

Quote

My sense (and I may be wrong about this) is A) that there are, in number, substantially more "trans women" than "trans men," B) that trans men are, in the main, being considerably less obtrusive, and C) in the context of men's sports and prisons, it is considerably rarer for trans men to be attempting to put themselves in those spaces.

This isn’t reported on because the propagandists don’t consider it to be scary and shocking and it doesn’t enrage people.

Could you provide a list?  I would like to better understand this.

A list of what?

Data regarding the ratio of "trans men" to "trans women."  But I retract the request, so no worries.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

When legal rights are in play, definitions and parameters are generally necessary.

Probably doesn’t matter. We may be seeing a lot of rights just carelessly obliterated in the near future so I doubt specificity and exactness will matter.

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Quote

Quote

They are describing themselves. No need to define.

When legal rights are in play, definitions and parameters are generally necessary.

Probably doesn’t matter.

I think it matters.  Quite a bit, actually.

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We may be seeing a lot of rights just carelessly obliterated in the near future so I doubt specificity and exactness will matter.

I don't think there has ever been a "right" for biological males to compete against women, to go into women's spaces.  So rights that never existed, or are freshly minted and found to be incompatible with our society, ought to be set aside.  I suspect, though, that some will attempt to further the "carelessly obliterated" and "people are bigots" narrative.  This may find purchase in those who really really bought into trans ideology, but most of society will, I think, know better.

The last many years has been an experiment, and one that has not only not succeeded, but failed quite badly.  I think in the years ahead we will look back on this "Trans Women are Women" era and find it to be, perhaps, well-intentioned but materially misguided, incoherent, harmful, and incongruent with reality and biological fact.  YMMV.

Thanks,

-Smac

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Probably doesn’t matter. We may be seeing a lot of rights just carelessly obliterated in the near future so I doubt specificity and exactness will matter.

Unfortunately, this is probably going to happen.  

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think it matters.  Quite a bit, actually.

When the law isn’t taken seriously it really won’t matter much.

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't think there has ever been a "right" for biological males to compete against women, to go into women's spaces.  So rights that never existed, or are freshly minted and found to be incompatible with our society, ought to be set aside.  I suspect, though, that some will attempt to further the "carelessly obliterated" and "people are bigots" narrative.  This may find purchase in those who really really bought into trans ideology, but most of society will, I think, know better.

The last many years has been an experiment, and one that has not only not succeeded, but failed quite badly.  I think in the years ahead we will look back on this "Trans Women are Women" era and find it to be, perhaps, well-intentioned but materially misguided, incoherent, harmful, and incongruent with reality and biological fact.  YMMV.

LOL

While the rights of women in general are being revoked, blatant misogynistic hate speech is on the rise, gay marriage is in targeting sights again, and women literally dying because of badly written abortion laws there are more important ways to protect women right now than punching down at the small transgender population. Of course fixing those requires courage and facing powerful opposition. Punching down on the marginalized is easier.

I know women choosing sterilization for their own safety. Many of them wanted children in the future but don’t want the increased risks. I know transgender people adhering to the motto “death before detransition”. I know bisexual and straight women swearing off relationships with men as a safety measure. I know people arming themselves to be ready.

Do you really think the ‘transgender menace’ is going to be remembered as important in this era when people look back? Even transgender people consider it a relatively minor issue at this point. It is using a level to make sure a painting in the hall is hung correctly while the Titanic might sink.

Recent anti-transgender campaign organizations spent around $130 per transgender person in the entire country on transphobic scare ads. It is working. People are obsessed with it. Why is so much money being spent to rivet people’s attention to this issue that has limited impact on most people’s lives and no impact on many more. What are they trying to distract people from?

Edited December 4, 2024 by The Nehor

[smac97]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Quote

I think it matters.  Quite a bit, actually.

When the law isn’t taken seriously it really won’t matter much.

I think keeping biological men out of spaces and events they weren't in previously, and should never have been in at all, will become the norm again.  I think this makes a lot of sense.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Quote

I don't think there has ever been a "right" for biological males to compete against women, to go into women's spaces.  So rights that never existed, or are freshly minted and found to be incompatible with our society, ought to be set aside.  I suspect, though, that some will attempt to further the "carelessly obliterated" and "people are bigots" narrative.  This may find purchase in those who really really bought into trans ideology, but most of society will, I think, know better.

The last many years has been an experiment, and one that has not only not succeeded, but failed quite badly.  I think in the years ahead we will look back on this "Trans Women are Women" era and find it to be, perhaps, well-intentioned but materially misguided, incoherent, harmful, and incongruent with reality and biological fact.  YMMV.

LOL

This is a serious topic, I think it should be treated as such.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

While the rights of women in general are being revoked,

Overwrought and false.  

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

blatant misogynistic hate speech is on the rise,

I don't know what you are referencing here, and you provide no evidence for it.

Is "TERF" part of this "misogynistic hate speech" of which you speak?

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

gay marriage is in targeting sights again,

I think same-sex marriage will remain the law of the land.  I think Obergefell was wrongly decided, but it's the law of the land, and I think the likelihood of it being overturned is effectively de minimis.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

and women literally dying because of badly written abortion laws

I don't know what you are referencing here, and you provide no evidence for it.

The vast majority of abortions in the U.S. are elective, with only a tiny percentage relating to the life of the mother.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

that there are more important ways to protect women right now

I agree that women need to be protected under the law.  I am glad to see this happening in the context of removing biological men from women's spaces.

This isn't an either/or scenario.  We can address multiple "ways to protect women" at the same time.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

than punching down at the small transgender population.  Of course fixing those requires courage and facing powerful opposition. Punching down on the marginalized is easier.

Overwrought and false.  

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I know women choosing sterilization for their own safety.

I view this as a tacit admission that some women use abortion as a means of birth control, a terrible thing given the ready availability of affordable contraceptives and the capacity for women to make rational choices about their own behavior, such as giving due consideration to the utterly foreseeable risk of pregnancy which is inherent in sexual activity.

There has been plenty of performative stuff on social media about women claiming an intention to sterilize themselves, or to have done it already.  Similarly, some people are shaving their heads, screaming, moving (out of state or out of the country), pushing the 4B movement, shunning, and otherwise acting out in unseemly and unhealthy ways.  And then posting about such things on social media (I disapprove of the video at the link insofar as it ridicules this stuff, but the compilation - some of which has strong language - merits attention).  It is, in overwhelming measure, overwrought performative political protest.  But shaved hair will grow back, screaming into a camera is a transient thing, people can move wherever they like, and so on.  Sterilization, though, is permanent, and I think most of those few who actually go through with it will come to regret it.

The adoption, in some quarters, of the 4B movement (with the four "Bs" relating to Korean words regarding "do not date men, get married to men, have sex with men, or have children with men") is interesting.  Again, I think it's mostly just performative and temporary.  And massively immature and unhealthy.  Ironically, though, in effect it shows women electively regulating their own sexual behavior, which in turn will substantially reduce the risk of pregnancy, and hence reduce instances of elective abortion.  So that's two pretty significant wins for Common Sense.  

Interestingly, the 4B movement originated in Korea, where - per the above Wikipedia link - "a portion of its members, particularly those associated with the openly misandric^[7] WOMAD, were described as transphobic and homophobic towards gay men.^[8]"

Extremism is virtually never a healthy thing.  I hope these women give themselves some time to pause and reflect before sterilizing themselves.  In the end, though, it is their decision, and one I think many of them will eventually greatly regret.

I reject the notion that there is any necessity to this stuff ("for their own safety").  

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Many of them wanted children in the future but don’t want the increased risks.

"{R}isk" of . . . pregnancy?  Yes, that's a natural and foreseeable consequence of sexual activity.  Modern women have plenty of less-extreme-than-sterilization options to substantially mitigate - or even entirely avoid - this risk.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I know transgender people adhering to the motto “death before detransition”.

Quite a paper tiger, that.  I am unaware of any risk of compulsory detransitioning anywhere in the United States, and you provide no evidence for it.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I know bisexual and straight women swearing off relationships with men as a safety measure.

We are seeing the oddity of what would otherwise be reasonable and rational courses of action (people regulating their sexual behavior so as to mitigate the risk of unwanted pregnancy) arising from a decidedly unreasonable and irrational (and highly performative) decision-making process.  

Right after high school I went into the Army, which included a year at a language school in California to learn Russian.  The ratio of students was, I think, about 55/45 (male to female).  One of the best choices I have made in this life was during this time, when I chose to keep the Law of Chastity.  I faced zero risk of A) getting an STI, B) getting a woman pregnant, C) imperiling a woman's life due to pregnancy (a statistically tiny, but still nonzero, risk), D) abortion, E) sexual misconduct, and so on.  I also faced drastically reduced risk of false claims of sexual misconduct.  

Once I finished my time in the Army, I entered the MTC and spent two years in Taiwan as a missionary.  Again, I kept the Law of Chastity during this time and garnered the benefits of avoiding the foregoing risks.

After my mission, I returned home and spent about a year on the dating scene, followed by about 9 months of dating and being engaged to the girl who is now my wife.  Again, I kept the Law of Chastity during this time and garnered the benefits of avoiding the foregoing risks.

The Law of Chastity is a wonderful and important precept, including its proscriptive, regulate-your-own-sexual-behavior elements.  I think the adulterated and distorted versions of those proscriptive elements, such as what you are describing above, are likely to be ephemeral for almost all of those claiming to adopt them in the wake of November 5.  Nevertheless, this fleeting exercise in self-regulation of sexual activity, even though borne of extremism and performative social media signaling, may end up helping some people recognize the merits of such self-regulation on more rational and reasonable grounds.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I know people arming themselves to be ready.

I assume you are referencing people like this:

I hope these calls for violence will go unheeded.  

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Do you really think the ‘transgender menace’

I have never used this phrase, nor do I subscribe to it.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

is going to the be remembered as important in this era when people look back?

I think many (most?) people will look back and be embarrassed that we spent years acting out The Emperor Has No Clothes in a real-world setting.  Here is a summary of the folktale as told by Hans Christian Anderson:

Quote

The tale concerns an emperor who has an obsession with fancy new clothes, and spends lavishly on them, at the expense of state matters. One day, two con-men visit the emperor's capital. Posing as weavers, they offer to supply him with magnificent clothes that are invisible to those who are incompetent or stupid. The gullible emperor hires them, and they set up looms and pretend to go to work. A succession of officials, starting with the emperor's wise and competent minister, and then ending with the emperor himself, visit them to check their progress. Each sees that the looms are empty but pretends otherwise to avoid being thought a fool.

Finally, the weavers report that the emperor's suit is finished. They mime dressing him and he sets off in a procession before the whole city. The townsfolk uncomfortably go along with the pretense, not wanting to appear inept or stupid, until a child blurts out that the emperor is wearing nothing at all. The people then realize that everyone has been fooled. Although startled, the emperor continues the procession, walking more proudly than ever. The fate of the con-men is not revealed.

The rule of law in society is important.  We are roughly 250 years into one of the greatest experiments in history, that of functioning as a constitutional republic.  A big part of that system is the checks and balances we have on relationships (government-people, state government-federal government, state-state, branch of government-branch of government, etc.).

Until fairly recently, biological males of every persuasion were not allowed, in both de facto and de jure ways, into women's spaces (sports, bathrooms, prisons, etc.).  We have spent the last few years experimenting with deviating from this de facto and de jure set of circumstances by allowing males into women's spaces.  It has not gone well, so some advocates of this new arrangement have sought to bolster it by claiming

• that "trans women are women,"
• that biological sex is merely a social construct,
• that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of trans ideology is necessarily and per se a bigot and a terrible person,
• that children are competently situated to decide about radical medical interventions re: sexual identity,
• that school teachers and administrators and state governments can override parental rights re: matters of minor children's sexual identity,
• that "Drag Queen Story Hour" events are a great idea,
• that exposing children to highly sexualized and grooming content in drag shows, pride parades, etc., is a great idea,
• that biological males competing against females in sports is a great idea,
• that allowing biological males into women's bathrooms and changing rooms is a great idea,
• that housing biological males in women's prisons is a great idea,

and so on.  I think these claims are akin to the claims in the above folktale about "magnificent clothes that are invisible to those who are incompetent or stupid."  

This has become, for most people in most jurisdictions, a bridge too far.  In the above folktale, the hoi polloi initially "uncomfortably go along with the pretense" about the emperor's clothes, "not wanting to appear inept or stupid."  But eventually they overcame this fear, set aside the pretense, and the absurdity was publicly acknowledged.  Similarly, I think society is increasingly disregarding the increasingly frantic "You're a Bigot if You Disagree With My Ideology!"-style proclamations (on full display in your comments here, Nehor).  The accusation and its underlying threat of social opprobrium is starting to wear off.  Just as the crowds came to acknowledge that the Emperor really was naked, we are increasingly realizing that the fundamental rationalizations for allowing males into women's spaces are incongruent with reality and biological fact.  A "trans woman" is not an actual woman, and actual women need to have their own spaces in terms of sports, bathrooms, prisons, etc., and laws need to be enacted to ensure a return to the status quo ante.  Hence the spate of state-level legislation along these lines, and even UN recommendations such as those quoted above:

Quote

(b) Ensure that female categories in organized sport are exclusively accessible to persons whose biological sex is female. In cases where the sex of an athlete is unknown or uncertain, a dignified, swift, non-invasive and accurate sex screening method (such as a cheek swab) or, where necessary for exceptional reasons, genetic testing should be applied to confirm the athlete’s sex. In non-professional sports spaces, the original birth certificates for verification may be appropriate. In some exceptional circumstances, such tests may need to be followed up by more complex tests;
...
(d) Ensure the inclusive participation of all persons wishing to play sports, through the creation of open categories for those persons who do not wish to compete in the category of their biological sex, or convert the male category into an open category;

(e) Protect the female category in sport and implement consistent testing for doping and artificially increased levels of testosterone, without exception. 

In the end, all this hullabaloo is about a fairly narrow issue: should biological males be allowed to go into women's spaces (sports, bathrooms, prisons).  Increasingly, society's answer is "no."  I get that you ascribe this to bigotry, which I find to be akin to the con-men's "invisible clothes" schtick, which was a falsehood that worked for a while as a means of coercing societal compliance, but which eventually wore off.  The same goes for your accusatory rhetoric.  It just isn't working.  It is losing its potency, and fast.

That said, I also don't like some of the "blowback" making fun of the excesses which have been on display for some years now.  The experiment of treating trans-identifying biological males as "women" for the purposes of sports, bathrooms, prisons, etc. is gradually coming to a close.  It was a bad idea from its inception, but we live and learn.  We don't need to rub it in.  At the same time, those who have advocated for this failed concept should not be calling for violence or resorting to other extreme rhetoric and behavior.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Even transgender people consider it a relatively minor issue at this point.

We'll see, I suppose.  If you are correct, if this really is "a relatively minor issue," then there should be no problem with or opposition to legislatures enacting laws which prohibit biological males from women's sports, bathrooms, prisons, etc. 

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is using a level to make sure a painting in the hall is hung correctly while the Titanic might sink.

I don't know what you mean here.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Recent anti-transgender campaign organizations spent around $130 per transgender person in the entire country on transphobic scare ads. It is working. People are obsessed with it. Why is so much money being spent to rivet people’s attention to this issue that has limited impact on most people’s lives and no impact on many more. What are they trying to distract people from?

I think most people were, until the last few years, largely indifferent to the "trans" community.  "You do you" and all that.  But we've been seeing a lot of social media and news coverage of issues such as those in the above bullet list.  Most of these issues have been actively promoted and advanced by trans activists.  These activists have not only brought these issues to our doors, but then have also demanded that we ratify and endorse and celebrate them, or else face accusations of being a bigot (a tactic which you yourself have amply demonstrated in this thread).

For myself, I suspect that the "Drag Shows targeting children" and "Yes, let's expose children to kink and other highly-sexualized behaviors at pride parades and events" stories, and associated rationalizations/justifications for these things, were the beginning of the "But the Emperor is naked!" moment and realization by society in general.  Prior to this, most people just didn't care about what consenting adults do in private.  But this stuff became increasingly public, even intentionally so by its promoters, and increasingly aimed at children.  I think that was when substantial swaths of society began to sit up, take notice, and begin to push back on these events. 

More recently, we have seen quite a bit of news coverage about medical procedures/treatments for minors re: sexual identity (hormone/puberty blockers, elective mastectomies/penectomies, huge increases in juvenile gender dysphoria, stories from detransitioners, the closing of the Tavistock Clinic, the Cass Report, etc.). 

Then there are the effects of social media, which has also brought these issues to the attention of people who previously did not pay them much attention at all.

In my view, much of this attention has been instigated by advocates of extreme elements of trans ideology, who have brought the foregoing trans-related issues to the doorstep of John Q. Public.  And now that John knows more about these things, and John recognizing them as likely being "Camel's Nose in the Tent"-style attempts at social engineering, and John - after consideration and reflections - fundamentally disagreeing with the incongruent-with-reality components of trans ideology, and John becoming increasingly impervious to "You're a Bigot if You Disagree With My Ideology!"-style pressure tactics, John is increasingly willing to speak and oppose the excesses of these efforts (drag shows targeting kids, biological males in women's sports/bathrooms/prisons, etc.), including asking for legislative protections against them.  I suspect that plenty of trans people were similarly revolted at the sexualization and grooming of children inherent in those events, and may also dislike these excesses.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 4, 2024 by smac97