Trib Opinion Piece Re: Church's Trans Policies

[Calm]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

What do you propose to be the mechanism for differentiating biological males from biological males who identify as trans women?  If it's not the unquestionable say-so of the individual, then what is it?  

What do you propose to be the mechanism for checking trans women who pass as biological women in others’ eyes from biological women?  Serious question, especially since IDs can be fake.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

u can't transition without taking drugs that stop testosterone and boosts estrogen.

Which is going to have a huge effect on behavior.  My dad had to take it and if he didn’t, he wasn’t the assertive, outgoing macho guy he typically was. 

[Calm]

 

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

There is no such thing as "transitioning" into "being a woman."

Would you be okay with the phrase of ‘transitioning into being treated like a woman?’

[Analytics]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

Respectfully, I think biological males in women's spaces is the problem.

For the sake of argument, let’s presume that this really is a problem.

What is the solution? Part of the problem of dealing with this type of thing is what statisticians call “Type I” errors and “Type II” errors. A Type I error is a false positive; a court convicting an innocent person is a Type I error. A Type II error is a false negative; a court finding a truly guilty person “not guilty” is Type II error. With imperfect information, the more you try to ensure you don’t commit one type of error, the more likely it is that you commit the other type of error. This tradeoff between the two types of errors is what is being grappled with when the court system considers whether it's better to let 100 guilty people go free than to unjustly convict one innocent person.

So if biological males in women’s spaces is the problem, how do you deal with this problem? How do you enforce your sensibilities? How many biological women are you willing to humiliate or bully in order to ensure that biological males aren’t posing as females in order to enter spaces where they may not go? For example, Natalie Cline seems to share your sensibilities on this topic, and she has proven willing to publicly bully and humiliate girls who she suspected might actually be biological males. If a woman suspects somebody in the restroom isn’t really a woman, what should she do? Call the cops and detail the person until the cops show up? Demand to see ID? Demand to perform a genital examination? 

Which problem is bigger--a biological male posing as a female and secretly pissing in a female-designated toilet, or a do-gooder incorrectly accusing a woman or girl of not really being a woman or girl?

For my part, I think bullying is the real problem, not people using the restroom that conforms to their gender identity. Your assertion that "biological males in women's spaces is the problem” makes the real problem worse, not better.

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, smac97 said:

What do you propose to be the mechanism for differentiating biological males from biological males who identify as trans women?  If it's not the unquestionable say-so of the individual, then what is it?  

It seems like it's pretty much like identifying porn.  It's hard to articulate, but you know it when you see it.

It seems really obvious that those who have fully transitioned and live/completely appear as the opposite sex identify as trans.

[smac97]

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Quote

Respectfully, I think biological males in women's spaces is the problem.

For the sake of argument, let’s presume that this really is a problem.

What is the solution?

Return to the status quo ante.  Prohibit males from going into women's spaces.

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

So if biological males in women’s spaces is the problem, how do you deal with this problem? How do you enforce your sensibilities?

Pass legislation, then enforce it.

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

How many biological women are you willing to humiliate or bully in order to ensure that biological males aren’t posing as females in order to enter spaces where they may not go?

I reject the premise.

And the supposed concern for biological women is . . . interesting.

From the UN piece's recommendations:

Quote

(b) Ensure that female categories in organized sport are exclusively accessible to persons whose biological sex is female. In cases where the sex of an athlete is unknown or uncertain, a dignified, swift, non-invasive and accurate sex screening method (such as a cheek swab) or, where necessary for exceptional reasons, genetic testing should be applied to confirm the athlete’s sex. In non-professional sports spaces, the original birth certificates for verification may be appropriate. In some exceptional circumstances, such tests may need to be followed up by more complex tests;
...
(d) Ensure the inclusive participation of all persons wishing to play sports, through the creation of open categories for those persons who do not wish to compete in the category of their biological sex, or convert the male category into an open category;

(e) Protect the female category in sport and implement consistent testing for doping and artificially increased levels of testosterone, without exception. 

A driver's license would, in many instances, likely be a sufficient ad hoc means of facilitating enforcement of statutes prohibiting biological men from women's spaces.

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

For example, Natalie Cline seems to share your sensibilities on this topic, and she has proven willing to publicly bully and humiliate girls who she suspected might actually be biological males.

From the article:

Quote

In February, Cline prompted calls for her resignation from legislators and others after she incorrectly suggested a female athlete was transgender. 

From this article:

Quote

A Utah state school board member is facing widespread condemnation and calls to resign after she shared a post on social media that appeared to suggest a 16-year-old girl on her school’s basketball team is transgender.

Natalie Cline, a member of the Utah State Board of Education, posted earlier this week on Facebook a flier for a high school girls’ basketball team in Salt Lake County, suggestively writing: “Girls’ basketball...” The post has since been deleted.

Nobody has suggested using snarky social media posts as a mechanism for enforcing statutes prohibiting males from entering into women's spaces or participating in women's sports.  Your implication to the contrary is pretty silly.

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

If a woman suspects somebody in the restroom isn’t really a woman, what should she do? Call the cops

Yes.  That is typically the way such things are handled.

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

and detail the person until the cops show up?  

I assume you meant to say "detain the person."  You seem to be referencing something like "Citizen's Arrest," described here:

Quote

A citizen's arrest is an arrest made by a private citizen – a person who is not acting as a sworn law-enforcement official.^[1] In common law jurisdictions, the practice dates back to medieval England and the English common law, in which sheriffs encouraged ordinary citizens to help apprehend law breakers.^[2]
...

United States of America[edit]

In the United States, a private person may arrest another without a warrant for a crime occurring in their presence. However, the crimes for which this is permitted vary by state.^[93] This procedure was criticized in the state of Georgia for the potential of abuse and racial bias after the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. As a result, Georgia repealed its citizen's arrest law, and replaced it with a narrower law applying only to business owners, inspectors, security guards, and private investigators.^[94][95]

Common law[edit]

Most states have codified the common law rule that a warrantless arrest may be made by a private person for a felony, misdemeanor, or "breach of peace".^[96] "Breach of peace" covers a multitude of violations in which the Supreme Court has even included a misdemeanor seatbelt violation punishable only by a fine. The term historically included theft, "nightwalking", prostitution, and playing card and dice games.^[97] Texas courts have defined and interpreted the term "breach of the peace" to mean an act that disturbs or threatens to disturb the tranquility enjoyed by the citizens.^[98][99]
...

Use of force[edit]

In general, a private person is considered to be justified in using non-deadly force upon another if they reasonably believe that: (1) such other person is committing a felony, or a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace; and (2) the force used is necessary to prevent further commission of the offense and to apprehend the offender. The force must be reasonable under the circumstances to restrain the individual arrested. This includes the nature of the offense and the amount of force required to overcome resistance.^[107][108] In Texas, a civilian may use reasonable force, including deadly force if reasonable, to prevent an escape from a lawful citizen's arrest.^[109][110]

Shopkeeper's (merchant's) privilege[edit]

In some states of the United States, the courts recognize a common law shopkeeper's privilege under which a shopkeeper is allowed to detain a suspected shoplifter on store property for a reasonable period of time, so long as the shopkeeper has cause to believe that the person detained in fact committed, or attempted to commit, theft of store property. The purpose of this detention is to recover the property and make an arrest if the merchant desires.^[111]

As you can see, there is a lot of variation as to the circumstances under which a Citizen's Arrest can take place.

As a practical matter, I think most people would likely call the police, and possibly record the incident for evidentiary purposes, but otherwise leave it at that.  I think many women would not feel capable of physically restraining a biological male, nor inclined to attempt it.

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Demand to see ID?

My understanding is that private parties do not have the right to demand to see another person's ID in the context of a suspected crime having been committed or under way.  

However, could legislation allow merchants/businesses to require ID to access female changing areas, locker rooms?  Sure.

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Demand to perform a genital examination? 

In ad hoc circumstances, no.  Law enforcement could principally rely on state-issued ID to determine biological sex.  If further confirmation is necessary, a cheek swab would be appropriate.  In extraordinarily rare circumstances, genetic testing may be necessary (such as for participating in women's sports, incarceration, etc.).

I get that you are trying to argue that enforcement of legislatively-enacted statutes re: biological sex would be some sort of logistical/practical quagmire.  Respectfully, I think you are exaggerating the difficulty.  A lot.  State-issued ID designates biological sex.  Then, if necessary, a cheek swab.  Then, if still necessary, genetic testing.  These latter two would, as a practical matter, be very rarely utilized.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Pass legislation, then enforce it.

How?  How to enforce trans women who can pass as biological women from using female spaces?

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

driver's license would, in many instances, likely be a sufficient ad hoc means of facilitating enforcement of statutes prohibiting biological men from women's spaces.

So who will be checking ids at public restrooms?  Or at church?  Will there be a guard at every bathroom entrance?

And what if the license says female but the guard thinks it is fake?  Just let them in or something else?

Edited December 5, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

Quote

Yes.  That is typically the way such things are handled.

And how fast will cops get there I wonder?  And I wonder how many will start calling cops because an older woman decides plucking hairs is too painful so gets a chin full of bristles and cuts her hair short for convenience?  Or a younger woman hates shaving her legs and wearing makeup and likes to wear boys clothes and has a boyish face and figure, was on the tall side (one of my best friends in high school was like this)

[smac97]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Quote

What do you propose to be the mechanism for differentiating biological males from biological males who identify as trans women?  If it's not the unquestionable say-so of the individual, then what is it?  

It seems like it's pretty much like identifying porn.  It's hard to articulate, but you know it when you see it.

In other words, there is no coherent mechanism for differentiating biological males from biological males who identify as trans women.  Would you agree?

And if there is no such mechanism, then any biological male can, on their say-so along, enter into women's spaces, participate in women's events, etc.  We saw this play out last year in Canada:

Quote

A bearded pro powerlifter entered a women’s competition in Canada — and smashed a record held by a trans lifter who was watching.

Avi Silverberg, the head coach for Team Canada Powerlifting for more than 10 years, entered Saturday’s Heroes Classic tournament in Lethbridge, Alberta, after identifying as a female.

Video shared by athlete activist group the Independent Council on Women’s Sports (ICONS) shows him walking up to the platform still fully bearded and wearing a regular men’s singlet.

He then casually bench-pressed nearly 370 pounds — beating the current Alberta women’s record by almost 100 pounds.

That record — 275 pounds — was held by trans athlete Anne Andres, who was seen watching Silverberg while volunteering at the event.
...
ICONS said Silverberg “mocked the discriminatory [Canadian Powerlifting Union] policy” that allows competitors to register for events under their “gender identity and expression, rather than their sex or gender,” vowing “no consequences” for doing so.

CPU’s trans policy states that an individual “should be able to participate in the gender with which they identify and not be subject to requirements for disclosure of personal information beyond those required of cisgender athletes.”

If Anne Andres can participate in the women's category, then so can Avi Silverberg.  Do you agree?

Is there any mechanism you can think of to differentiate Avi Silverberg (a biological male who, it seems, opportunistically "identified" as female) from Anne Andres (a biological male who also "identified" as female)?

Do you think your "you know it when you see it" approach would work?  Respectfully, I don't think it would work at all, and would instead be a debacle.

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It seems really obvious that those who have fully transitioned and live/completely appear as the opposite sex identify as trans.

Okay.  What does "fully transitioned" mean?  Top and bottom surgery?  Hormone therapy?  Shaved adam's apple?  Women's clothing?  

And are "trans women" who have not "fully transitioned" going to be differentiated here?  IIRC, a substantial majority of "trans women" have not undergone any sort of medical treatment.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

Across transgender populations, chest (“top”) surgery is more common than genitourinary reconstructive (“bottom”) surgery. Chest surgery is generally reported at about twice the rate of genital GCS. In studies that assessed transgender men and women as an aggregate, chest surgery has been reported at rates between 8–25%, and genital surgery at 4–13% (8,9). 

So do we, as a society, allow "trans women" who have undergone "top" and "bottom" surgeries into women's spaces, but exclude "trans women" who have not?

Are some "trans women" more "trans" than other "trans women"?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As a practical matter, I think most people would likely call the police, and possibly record the incident for evidentiary purposes,

You are suggesting taking pictures of a possible woman in a restroom. WOW!!!

[Tacenda]

@smac97, do you believe that there are real trans male/female out there? That have a biological reason they are trans? 

If yes, then how would you feel if you were in this scenario and you wouldn't be allowed in the women's restroom and you wouldn't dare go into a men's restroom for fear of your life? Because that is what could happen, someone vehemently against a trans and them taking out their anger on them in the restroom. 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

In ad hoc circumstances, no.  Law enforcement could principally rely on state-issued ID to determine biological sex.  If further confirmation is necessary, a cheek swab would be appropriate.  In extraordinarily rare circumstances, genetic testing may be necessary (such as for participating in women's sports, incarceration, etc.).

I get that you are trying to argue that enforcement of legislatively-enacted statutes re: biological sex would be some sort of logistical/practical quagmire.  Respectfully, I think you are exaggerating the difficulty.  A lot.  State-issued ID designates biological sex.  Then, if necessary, a cheek swab.  Then, if still necessary, genetic testing.  These latter two would, as a practical matter, be very rarely utilized.

Yes, no need to worry about thefts and assaults, accidents, drug busts, etc getting neglected because the police have so much free time on their hands for bathroom and locker room patrol.

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

driver's license would, in many instances, likely be a sufficient ad hoc means of facilitating enforcement of statutes prohibiting biological men from women's spaces.

So who will be checking ids at public restrooms?  

The same ones who are checking them now: nobody.

Most laws expect substantial "on your honor" compliance.  I do not enter into women's spaces not because someone is at the door checking my ID, but because I obey the law.  Most people are like this, or should be.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

As a practical matter, I think most people would likely call the police, and possibly record the incident for evidentiary purposes,

You are suggesting taking pictures of a possible woman in a restroom. WOW!!!

Outside the restroom.  That's what I had in mind.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, smac97 said:

sex.  If further confirmation is necessary, a cheek swab would be appropriate

How long to process the cheek swab?

Where is the money to pay for this increase of on all security of public restrooms going to come from?  You okay with taxes being raised to pay for more police and costs of tests and all that training  needed to deal with such encounters?

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Quote

In ad hoc circumstances, no.  Law enforcement could principally rely on state-issued ID to determine biological sex.  If further confirmation is necessary, a cheek swab would be appropriate.  In extraordinarily rare circumstances, genetic testing may be necessary (such as for participating in women's sports, incarceration, etc.).

I get that you are trying to argue that enforcement of legislatively-enacted statutes re: biological sex would be some sort of logistical/practical quagmire.  Respectfully, I think you are exaggerating the difficulty.  A lot.  State-issued ID designates biological sex.  Then, if necessary, a cheek swab.  Then, if still necessary, genetic testing.  These latter two would, as a practical matter, be very rarely utilized.

Yes, no need to worry about thefts and assaults, accidents, drug busts, etc getting neglected because the police have so much free time on their hands for bathroom and locker room patrol.

I think you are resorting to a form of the "Fallacy of Relative Privation," described here:

Quote

The "not as bad as" fallacy, also known as the fallacy of relative privation,^[2] asserts that:

1. If something is worse than the problem currently being discussed, then
2. The problem currently being discussed isn't that important at all.
3. In order for the statement "A is not as bad as B," to suggest a fallacy there must be a fallacious conclusion such as: ignore A.

In other words: nothing matters if it's not literally the worst thing happening.^{[note 1]} It's popular with people who know perfectly well they're doing something wrong. Since they are fully aware that they're doing something wrong, they feel compelled to attempt to justify it and do so by pointing to other (usually worse) actions.

This fallacy is a form of the moral equivalence fallacy.

 

Thefts and assaults and such are worse than biological males in women's spaces.  Ergo, society should do nothing about biological males entering into women's spaces.

By your reasoning, police should also stop any and all enforcement of illegal parking, jaywalking, and hundreds and hundreds of non-violent or less-serious-then infractions, misdemeanors, etc., because doing results in police - in your view - "neglecting" more serious crimes ("thefts and assaults, accidents, drug busts, etc.").

Respectfully, I do not accept your reasoning.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

sex.  If further confirmation is necessary, a cheek swab would be appropriate

How long to process the cheek swab?

A few days or weeks, depending on the circumstances.

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Where is the money to pay for this increase of on all security of public restrooms going to come from?  

I reject the premise.

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

You okay with taxes being raised to pay for more police and costs of tests and all that training  needed to deal with such encounters?

I again reject the premise.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The same ones who are checking them now: nobody.

Most laws expect substantial "on your honor" compliance.  I do not enter into women's spaces not because someone is at the door checking my ID, but because I obey the law.  Most people are like this, or should be.

Thanks,

-Smac

Okay. And what happens when a fully transitioned female to male enters a women’s bathroom?  And this individual passes as man completely?  

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Okay. And what happens when a fully transitioned female to male enters a women’s bathroom?  And this individual passes as man completely?  

Exactly.  Thank you. 
 

and when a passing woman stands next to a man to urinate.  

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Thefts and assaults and such are worse than biological males in women's spaces.  Ergo, society should do nothing about biological males entering into women's spaces.

Nope, not my reasoning.  I am looking for a plan of enforcement that could work. Would actually love to have one on the table for negotiation. If you remember, which you apparently don’t, I am not someone who is pro allowing biological males into female only spaces only on self identification.

I am challenging your ideas that I believe are poorly thought out or supported because they are poorly thought out, not because of the principle behind them.

I am simply asking to see a realistic version of enforcement from you.  Haven’t seen it yet.  All I see is increased problems in not only the restrooms, but elsewhere…similar to how child protection services are overwhelmed in some places due to mandatory reporting.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I reject the premise.

So somehow there is not going to be any costs occurring due to callouts to bathrooms and running cheek swabs and generic tests, additional training of police on handling responsibly such confrontations, etc.

I really hope you are never involved in city planning or making laws if you truly believe just because something appears to be a good idea, the cost will be negligible.  My guess is you just haven’t thought it through.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think you are resorting to a form of the "Fallacy of Relative Privation," described here:

 

Thefts and assaults and such are worse than biological males in women's spaces.  Ergo, society should do nothing about biological males entering into women's spaces.

By your reasoning, police should also stop any and all enforcement of illegal parking, jaywalking, and hundreds and hundreds of non-violent or less-serious-then infractions, misdemeanors, etc., because doing results in police - in your view - "neglecting" more serious crimes ("thefts and assaults, accidents, drug busts, etc.").

Respectfully, I do not accept your reasoning.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

No, my reasoning is if laws are intended to be enforced, enough funding and manpower should be provided as well because if not, that is when mistakes are made.  If you propose more work for police, you should propose ways it can be done rather than just wave your hands and say ‘make it work’.

At this point and time most departments set aside funds and manpower for both the jaywalking enforcement and the serious crimes.  It may not be sufficient, but they make it balance. If you add more work without providing more manpower and funding, logically it has to come from these resources and such balance will be lost. 
 

If you don’t want to take away resources from enforcement of other crimes, where is your funding for the additional policing activity going to come from? If taxes aren’t raised, where is the money going to come from?

The numbers of trans individuals is going up. Even more important the awareness of their existence has skyrocketed and it is highly likely that sightings and suspected and mistaken identifications are likely to skyrocket now as well at least for a time.   Past resources are likely not going to be enough. It is wise in making a law that if you want it to be enforced to determine how it will be funded.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Calm

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

@smac97, do you believe that there are real trans male/female out there?

If by "trans male" / "trans female" you mean "biological females who 'identify' as male" / "biological males who 'identify' as female," then yes.

But is a biological male who "identifies" as a woman, actually a woman?  No.  There is no such thing as "transitioning" into "being a woman."  The only justification for such a claim is an extended exercise of equivocating about the definition of "woman."  It's a very recent phenomenon, and one that is ad hoc, contrived, and incongruent with biological science and reality.

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That have a biological reason they are trans? 

First, I do not know what you mean by "are trans."  

A biological male may subjectively feel like, and want to "identify" as, a woman, and there may well be some sort of neurochemical or other technically "biological" component to that subjective feeling.  But that subjective feeling cannot override biological science and reality.  No matter how much he may feel like he is female, he is, and always will be, male.

Earlier in this thread I related the following:

Quote

Earlier this year I attended visited Encircle House in Provo, Utah.  My daughter had asked that I go there and attend meetings wherein trans individuals share their thoughts, experiences, etc.  So I went, just to listen to what they have to say.  There were four other people in attendance, all (apparently) biological women who "identified" as trans men.  We went around the room and introduced ourselves, then each of the other participants spoke for a few minutes, then it concluded.  It was not particularly illuminating, as most of their comments seemed to be complaining about mundane stuff (school, work, friends, etc.).  Several of them added that these things are harder for trans people, but that was about it as far as "trans"-specific commentary.

After the meeting I walked downstairs to the main floor, where I encountered a larger group of mostly teenagers.  They were all talking animatedly.  Two or three of them were dressed up as "furries."  One of them, who was kneeling on the ground with dog ears on his head and a collar around his neck, turned and saw me.  He smiled and said "Hi!  My name is Jack, and I identify as a dog.  Woof!"  (I can't remember the name he gave, but it was a generic male name.)  I said hello back to him, and asked him about his day.  He said it had been fine.  As I had already been there for over an hour, I then exited the building and drove home.

On the drive home, I wondered about the expectations I had just encountered.  The people I had met upstairs all stated that they were "trans men," that is, biological women who "identify" as man.  None of them was dressed in any particularly "masculine" way.  They all had their hair in unremarkable cuts/styles.  None of them had beards, low voices, or anything.  All of them appeared to look female in every normative respect ("feminine" facial features, breasts, hips, etc.).  And yet each of them stated their identity as a "trans man."  And I think they had an expectation for this identity to be acknowledged, accepted, ratified, etc.  

Then I thought about the teenager I had met downstairs.  He specifically said he "identifies" as a dog.  Was I supposed to accept that statement as congruent with reality and biological fact?  Left to my own devices, I would think not, because notwithstanding how he "identifies," this kid was not a dog.  He was a human being.  In my  brief interaction with him, I treated him with kindness and respect, but I did not acknowledge (or endorse, or ratify, etc.) his self-identification as a dog.  It was a passing interaction, so there was no particular need to do so.  But if he and his family were to move in next door, and if his parents were to ask me to "respect" his "identity" as a dog, to treat him like a dog, to act as if I think he is actually a dog, etc., should I go along with that?

Do I believe that the teenager I describe above exists?  Yes.  I met him, and I recall the interaction.  I was not under the influence of any mind-altering substance, I am of sound mind, and the event was fairly recent so my recollection of it is pretty good.

Do I believe that this teenager "identifies" as a dog?  Well, yes.  He said as much ("'Hi!  My name is Jack, and I identify as a dog.'").  He was dressed up as a dog (dog ears on his head and a collar around his neck).  He was acting like a dog (he was squatting on the floor, like a dog sits on his haunches).  He barked like a dog ("'Woof!'").

Do I believe that this teenager is actually a dog?  Respectfully, no.  He should be treated with kindness and respect, but I don't think that kindness and respect compels me to deny biological fact and reality, and to instead go along with the false notion that he is a dog because he "identifies" as one.

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If yes, then how would you feel if you were in this scenario and you wouldn't be allowed in the women's restroom and you wouldn't dare go into a men's restroom for fear of your life?  Because that is what could happen, someone vehemently against a trans and them taking out their anger on them in the restroom. 

I am strongly opposed to any form of extra-legal violence.  But I think that an abstract risk of X violating the law over here is not a justification for Y to violate the law over there.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

The same ones who are checking them now: nobody.

Most laws expect substantial "on your honor" compliance.  I do not enter into women's spaces not because someone is at the door checking my ID, but because I obey the law.  Most people are like this, or should be.

Okay. And what happens when a fully transitioned female to male enters a women’s bathroom?  

I don't know what you mean by "fully transitioned."  There is a pretty broad range of options.  From ChatGPT:

Quote

Below is a comprehensive list of gender-affirming medical treatments, procedures, and interventions often used to align an individual's physical characteristics with their gender identity. These treatments are typically pursued under the guidance of medical and mental health professionals, tailored to the individual's goals and needs.

Hormonal Interventions

1. Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT):
   • Feminizing Hormones (for transfeminine individuals):
     • Estrogen (oral, injectable, or transdermal)
     • Anti-androgens (e.g., spironolactone, cyproterone acetate, or GnRH agonists)
   • Masculinizing Hormones (for transmasculine individuals):
     • Testosterone (injectable, transdermal, or gel forms)
2. Puberty Blockers:
   • GnRH agonists (e.g., leuprolide, histrelin) to pause puberty in adolescents.

Surgical Interventions

1. Facial and Cranial Surgeries:
   • Facial feminization surgery (e.g., jaw contouring, rhinoplasty, brow lift)
   • Tracheal shave (reduction of Adam’s apple)
   • Facial masculinization surgery (e.g., cheek or jaw implants)
2. Chest Surgeries:
   • Chest masculinization ("top surgery"): removal of breast tissue and contouring for a male-appearing chest.
   • Breast augmentation (implants or fat grafting) for transfeminine individuals.
3. Genital Surgeries:
   • Vaginoplasty (creation of a vagina and vulva)
   • Phalloplasty (construction of a penis)
   • Metoidioplasty (creation of a smaller penis from the clitoral tissue)
   • Orchiectomy (removal of the testes)
   • Hysterectomy (removal of the uterus)
   • Oophorectomy (removal of the ovaries)
   • Vaginectomy (removal of the vagina)
   • Scrotoplasty (creation of a scrotum, often with testicular implants)
4. Body Contouring Surgeries:
   • Liposuction or fat redistribution for feminization or masculinization.
   • Buttock or hip augmentation for transfeminine individuals.
5. Other Surgeries:
   • Voice feminization surgery (altering vocal cords for a higher pitch).

Voice and Communication Therapies

1. Voice training with a speech-language pathologist to modify pitch, resonance, and speech patterns.
2. Voice masculinization/feminization surgery (e.g., vocal cord surgery).

Hair Removal and Restoration

1. For Feminization:
   • Laser hair removal or electrolysis (for facial and body hair).
2. For Masculinization:
   • Hair transplant procedures to address male-pattern hairlines or baldness.

Fertility Preservation Options

1. For Transfeminine Individuals:
   • Sperm banking before starting estrogen therapy or undergoing gonadectomy.
2. For Transmasculine Individuals:
   • Egg or embryo freezing before starting testosterone therapy or undergoing hysterectomy/oophorectomy.

Psychological and Social Interventions

1. Gender-affirming mental health therapy (to address dysphoria, provide support, and assess readiness for medical interventions).
2. Social transition support (e.g., guidance on name changes, pronoun use, or legal documents).

Other Non-Surgical Interventions

1. Binding (using chest binders to create a flatter chest appearance).
2. Tucking (to flatten the groin area).
3. Packing (use of prosthetics to create the appearance of male genitalia).
4. Prosthetics for gender expression (e.g., breast forms, wigs, or other items).

This list is not exhaustive but captures the majority of recognized medical, surgical, and non-surgical interventions associated with gender affirmation.

How many of these must an individual receive in order to qualify as "a fully transitioned female"?  One?  Some?  All?  None?

Anyway, to answer your questions: "And what happens when a fully transitioned female to male enters a women’s bathroom?  And this individual passes as man completely?"

As a practical matter, she will likely get away with it (because, as you put it, she "passes as a man completely").

Unfortunately, most statutes will be broken by some, and some of those who break the law will get away with it.  This is not a justification for not enacting laws, because A) many people will obey them, on an "on your honor" system, B) some of those who break the law will be caught and punished, such that C) the existence of the law, and of its enforcement, can have a substantial deterrent effect to those who are considering breaking them.

Thanks,

-Smac