The brother of Jared's faith

[telnetd]

Was the brother of Jared greater in faith than Adam, Enoch, and Noah?

"And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man 
believed in me as thou hast" (Ether 3:15).

[teddyaware]

53 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Was the brother of Jared greater in faith than Adam, Enoch, and Noah?

"And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man 
believed in me as thou hast" (Ether 3:15).

In light of the following account found in Moses 7, it’s undeniably obvious that the prophet Enoch (who preceded the brother of Jared) had a face-to-face eyewitness encounter with the Lord exactly like the epiphany experienced by the brother of Jared. Therefore an alternate interpretation to the literal, seemingly obvious surface meaning of the Lord’s words to the brother of Jared is required.

3 And it came to pass that I turned and went up on the mount; and as I stood upon the mount, I beheld the heavens open, and I was clothed upon with glory;

4 And I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face; and he said unto me: Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations. (Moses 7)

I believe the meaning of the Lord’s words to the brother of Jared can easily be clarified by the simple addition of the word “fallen.”

15 And never have I showed myself unto fallen man whom I have created, for never has fallen man 
believed in me as thou hast" (Ether 3) 

The key is that before a man can see God he must first be elevated from the fallen state by being “clothed upon with glory.”  Doctrine and Covenants 67 expresses this same spiritual concept thusly:

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind. (D&C 67)

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2024 by teddyaware

[CV75]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Was the brother of Jared greater in faith than Adam, Enoch, and Noah?

"And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man 
believed in me as thou hast" (Ether 3:15).

Evidently, and I think the Lord is sharing the comparison as much to impress upon the brother of Jared his responsibility to appreciate and act accordingly. He would not have had as much belief without Adam, Enoch and Noah doing what they did in faith before him. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

In light of the following account found in Moses 7, it’s undeniably obvious that the prophet Enoch (who preceded the brother of Jared) had a face-to-face eyewitness encounter with the Lord exactly like the epiphany experienced by the brother of Jared. Therefore an alternate interpretation to the literal, seemingly obvious surface meaning of the Lord’s words to the brother of Jared is required.

3 And it came to pass that I turned and went up on the mount; and as I stood upon the mount, I beheld the heavens open, and I was clothed upon with glory;

4 And I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face; and he said unto me: Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations. (Moses 7)

I believe the meaning of the Lord’s words to the brother of Jared can easily be clarified by the simple addition of the word “fallen.”

15 And never have I showed myself unto fallen man whom I have created, for never has fallen man 
believed in me as thou hast" (Ether 3) 

The key is that before a man can see God he must first be elevated from the fallen state by being “clothed upon with glory.”  Doctrine and Covenants 67 expresses this same spiritual concept thusly:

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind. (D&C 67)

While quickening is necessary to see God, Adam, Moses and Enoch saw His spirit body (not "like unto flesh and blood" as the brother of Jared did in seeing His finger). As it turns out, when Jesus revealed His entire body, it was the body of His spirit (and then we do not have the full account). I think these prophets foresaw in vision the coming of the Lord in the flesh, but not as an immediate fact during their interviews with Him, as the brother of Jared did.

I imagine that the brother of Jared knew that the Lord would take upon Himself flesh and blood, but his belief was so great he surprised himself by seeing/foreseeing an actual/future flesh and blood finger. The Lord was evidently, and pleasantly, surprised also.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Was the brother of Jared greater in faith than Adam, Enoch, and Noah?

"And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man 
believed in me as thou hast" (Ether 3:15).

This is at a very early date, because we have the later very matter-of-fact meeting of the Lord-Yahweh and two angels with Abraham in Gen 18 at the holy oaks in Mamre (Hebron).  Abe prepares a sumptuous feast which Lord-Yahweh and the angels eat, which means that Lord-Yahweh there is God the Father, and that he and the angels are resurrected beings with physical bodies.  Only after his resurrection does Jesus do likewise.

Both God the Father and Jesus can be called Yahweh because it is a title, not a name.

[InCognitus]

47 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Evidently, and I think the Lord is sharing the comparison as much to impress upon the brother of Jared his responsibility to appreciate and act accordingly. He would not have had as much belief without Adam, Enoch and Noah doing what they did in faith before him. 

I agree.

The knowledge of God's workings with Adam, Enoch, and Noah no doubt informed how the brother of Jared reasoned with the Lord, especially on how to provide light for his vessels, for he knew how it was done with Noah inside the ark.  

Our church published scriptures have a footnote for Genesis 6:16, where God tells Noah, "A window shalt thou make to the ark".  The footnote says regarding the Hebrew word for window, "HEB tsohar; some rabbis believed it was a precious stone that shone in the ark."  

One such discussion by rabbis is in Bereshit Rabbah 31 (Genesis), which says:

“You shall make a bright item for the ark, and to a cubit you shall complete it at the top, and the entrance of the ark you shall place at its side; with lower, second-level, and third stories you shall craft it” (Genesis 6:15).
“You shall make a bright item [tzohar] for the ark” – Rabbi Ḥunya, Rabbi Pinḥas, Rabbi Ḥanin, and Rabbi Hoshaya did not disagree about this. Rabbi Abba bar Kahana and Rabbi Levi did disagree. Rabbi Abba bar Kahana said: It was a window. Rabbi Levi said: It was a [luminous] precious stone. Rabbi Pinḥas said in the name of Rabbi Levi: All twelve months that Noah was in the ark, he needed neither the light of the sun during the day nor the light of the moon at night; rather, he had a precious stone that he had suspended. When it was dim he knew that it was day, and when it shined brightly he knew that it was night. Rabbi Huna said: We were once fleeing from enemy troops in a cave in Tiberias, and we had lamps with us. When they were dim, we knew that it was day, and when they shined brightly, we knew that it was night."

The understanding of these things seems to be what drove the great faith of the brother of Jared, i.e. "I know how you did it with Noah, just do it again the same way."

Edited November 16, 2024 by InCognitus

[teddyaware]

50 minutes ago, CV75 said:

While quickening is necessary to see God, Adam, Moses and Enoch saw His spirit body (not "like unto flesh and blood" as the brother of Jared did in seeing His finger). As it turns out, when Jesus revealed His entire body, it was the body of His spirit (and then we do not have the full account). I think these prophets foresaw in vision the coming of the Lord in the flesh, but not as an immediate fact during their interviews with Him, as the brother of Jared did.

I imagine that the brother of Jared knew that the Lord would take upon Himself flesh and blood, but his belief was so great he surprised himself by seeing/foreseeing an actual/future flesh and blood finger. The Lord was evidently, and pleasantly, surprised also.

So when Enoch looked directly into the face of the Lord and saw floods of tears pouring from his heartbroken eyes, this wouldn’t have plainly revealed him that the Lord’s spirit would one day be clothed upon with a body of flesh and blood that would be modeled exactly after his spirit body? Before reading about Enoch’s intimately personal encounter with the Lord, did you realize that human spirit bodies are capable of crying just like bodies of flesh, bone and blood? It appears you’re reading things into the epiphany of the brother of Jared that can just as easily be seen and understood in Enoch’s equally graphic and revealing account.

Edited November 16, 2024 by teddyaware

[CV75]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

So when Enoch looked directly into the face of the Lord and saw floods of tears pouring from his heartbroken eyes, this wouldn’t have plainly revealed him that the Lord’s spirit would one day be clothed upon with a body of flesh and blood that would be modeled exactly after his spirit body? Before reading about Enoch’s intimately personal encounter with the Lord, did you realize that human spirit bodies are capable of crying just like bodies of flesh, bone and blood? It appears you’re reading things into the epiphany of the brother of Jared that can just as easily be seen and understood in Enoch’s equally graphic and revealing account.

I think you are asking the wrong questions for this topic, with is about the unique status of the brother of Jared's faith. Both men, I believe, had the doctrinal foundation that the Lord would come to earth in the flesh prior to their experiences as recorded in Moses 6 and 7 and Ether 3.

The difference between them is that Enoch’s faith led to the successive visions in Moses 6 and 7, but he only foresees, in vision, the day of the coming of the Lord in the flesh (including His death, resurrection, ascension, and Second Coming), while the brother of Jared’s faith led him to see the Lord in the flesh directly, after which he was brought within the veil, the details of which are sealed.

The brother of Jared’s knowledge was perfect because he experienced the past, present and future realities of the Lord simultaneously (Ether 3:20) and could not be kept from within the veil. Enoch’s knowledge is not described as perfect, as he was not brought within the veil, at least in this record, even though he and the people of Zion walked with God, Who dwelled in Zion, and Who received it up into His own bosom, which is not the same as experiencing the past, present and future realities simultaneously (i.e., being within the veil).

[CV75]

...and of course many say these records are temple dramas anyway.

[Pyreaux]

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In light of the following account found in Moses 7, it’s undeniably obvious that the prophet Enoch (who preceded the brother of Jared) had a face-to-face eyewitness encounter with the Lord exactly like the epiphany experienced by the brother of Jared. Therefore an alternate interpretation to the literal, seemingly obvious surface meaning of the Lord’s words to the brother of Jared is required.

3 And it came to pass that I turned and went up on the mount; and as I stood upon the mount, I beheld the heavens open, and I was clothed upon with glory;

4 And I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face; and he said unto me: Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations. (Moses 7)

I believe the meaning of the Lord’s words to the brother of Jared can easily be clarified by the simple addition of the word “fallen.”

15 And never have I showed myself unto fallen man whom I have created, for never has fallen man 
believed in me as thou hast" (Ether 3) 

The key is that before a man can see God he must first be elevated from the fallen state by being “clothed upon with glory.”  Doctrine and Covenants 67 expresses this same spiritual concept thusly:

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind. (D&C 67)

I agree. I like how members in comparing Latter-day Saint theology with ancient scripture naturally get most of the ancient ways correct. A created man =/= immortal Adam and transfigured/born again Enoch and Noah. Seeing God usually requires transfiguration, by which those we call "men", in scriptures they aren't considered men. But we also have freak occurrences, like Cornelius being worthy of the Holy Ghost before a cleansing baptism. It's not normal, but it may happen once.

Edited November 17, 2024 by Pyreaux

[teddyaware]

55 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

I agree. I like how members in comparing Latter-day Saint theology with ancient scripture naturally get most of the ancient ways correct. A created man =/= immortal Adam and transfigured/born again Enoch and Noah. Seeing God usually requires transfiguration, by which those we call "men", in scriptures they aren't considered men. But we also have freak occurrences, like Cornelius being worthy of the Holy Ghost before a cleansing baptism. It's not normal, but it may happen once.

I agree. But I must add that receiving a mighty outpouring of the Holy Ghost, as great as that blessing may be, isn’t quite the same as seeing and conversing with the Lord face to face, as one man speaketh to another man.

[Dario_M]

14 hours ago, telnetd said:

Was the brother of Jared greater in faith than Adam, Enoch, and Noah?

"And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man 
believed in me as thou hast" (Ether 3:15).

I don't read anything like that in that little piece of scripture you show us. So i think it isn't true. 

Edited November 17, 2024 by Dario_M

[Pyreaux]

10 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I don't read anything like that in that little piece of scripture you show us. So i think it isn't true. 

Well, the Brother of Jared is a person that lived after the flood and the fall of Babel who saw the preborn Jesus in some unique way, different from anyone before, as to see Jesus' finger touch the stones without Jesus intending him to see it. Adam, Enoch and Noah saw the Lord before the Brother of Jared did. What Jesus says about the Brother of Jarod must be something exceptional. Such as, he had more faith than the Patriarchs, or as me and teddy suggested, it's that he was unique being a "man" to see him, as the Patriarchs weren't exactly humans when they saw the Lord.

Adam saw God

It can be observed that most all those who saw God either were Temple Priests or were worthy as is to be transfigured and thus spontaneously conscripted into becoming a Temple priest in an instant, or shortly thereafter, they saw God. Both Enoch and Noah “walked with God” (Genesis 5:21-24; 6:9), and it seems Adam had also walked with God until one fateful day he missed his rendezvous because he was naked (Genesis 3:8-9).

Most agree Adam could freely meet with God before his Fall and one might excuse Adam from what Jesus said because he wasn’t exactly a true man yet, he was an immortal. Priestly Apotheosis is also a theme found in Genesis. While not obvious in English, those familiar with the Hebrew language used in Genesis and elsewhere in the Bible, leads one to conclude that Adam is a King-Priest. Adam was considered a son “of God” (Luke 3:38; Genesis 1:26; 2:15).

Enoch saw God

Enoch “walked with God” (Genesis 5:21-24). Enoch was initiated as a priest, as this is the meaning of his name, “Enoch [hnk (H#2585), initiated]” which Enoch was a new man, a new Adam, or rather an anti-Adam, he is reversing the Adamaic condition; he would reverse how one man had became fallen who was once divine and was able to walk and commune with God in a sacred space. Enoch began a new post-Adamaic age of priests after the manner of Adam. All Enochian literature explains that Enoch was initiated by angelic ministers with Priestly Robes and Anointing Myrrh oil, initiating him into the High Priesthood, and by a transfiguration, he transforms from human into a divine angelic being, "And my spirit was transfigured, And I cried with a loud voice... With the spirit of power and blessed, and glorified and extolled." (1 Enoch 71:11).

First Enoch, the Book of Dreams, is a Hebrew history encoded as an animal fable. In the ancient apocalyptic code, the angelic figures are "men" dressed in white (1 Enoch 87:2; 90:21, 31). While other unnamed, but recognizable, Biblical figures are born animals. However some of these animals eventually become "men", or rather, they are men who became divine beings. Noah is born a white bull, but after he is told a secret, he becomes a man (1 Enoch 89:1), and Moses is born a white sheep, but becomes a man (1 Enoch 89:36)., The Apocalypse of Weeks is also an encoded history told as a series of 10 "weeks", 10 ages of Israel, and the 'men' figures are Noah, Abraham and Elijah (1 En 93:4-5, 8).

Thus the initiated High Priest Enoch is prepared to stand before God. He goes to see God, and heaven has three levels, like Solomon's Temple (1 Enoch 14:8ff). Enoch stands before the heavenly throne to make intercession for the fallen angels that sinned (1 Enoch 15:2)). If Enoch saw the throne of God, though it doesn't say he saw the one upon the throne, or his body. One could assume he did.

Noah saw God

Noah, like Enoch was completely initiated into the priesthood, or as it says he was “prefect (H#8549) complete]” thus prepared, like Enoch, Noah “walked with God” (Genesis 6:9). Noah is a priest who would mediate and renew the Everlasting Covenant of Adam for his own generation. We can assume this because he received the same commission Adam did, which is the same commission that will be given to Abraham for his Everlasting Covenant.

Noah forges the Everlasting Covenant and sees a sign of God’s acceptance, the “bow”. However, this wasn’t simply a rainbow, God says Noah saw “My bow” (Genesis 9:3) it was a Rainbow Theophany. Rainbows describe the light of God’s glory, like others who have seen God, they report that God is surrounded by a light and glory, and that it looks like a rainbow (Ezekiel 1:26-28). But does he see God's spirit body, or just his glory?

Edited November 17, 2024 by Pyreaux

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Well, the Brother of Jared is a person that lived after the flood and the fall of Babel who saw the preborn Jesus in some unique way, different from anyone before, as to see Jesus' finger touch the stones without Jesus intending him to see it. Adam, Enoch and Noah saw the Lord before the Brother of Jared did. What Jesus says about the Brother of Jarod must be something exceptional. Such as, he had more faith than the Patriarchs, or as me and teddy suggested, it's that he was unique being a "man" to see him, as the Patriarchs weren't exactly humans when they saw the Lord.

Adam saw God

It can be observed that most all those who saw God either were Temple Priests or were worthy as is to be transfigured and thus spontaneously conscripted into becoming a Temple priest in an instant, or shortly thereafter, they saw God. Both Enoch and Noah “walked with God” (Genesis 5:21-24; 6:9), and it seems Adam had also walked with God until one fateful day he missed his rendezvous because he was naked (Genesis 3:8-9).

Most agree Adam could freely meet with God before his Fall and one might excuse Adam from what Jesus said because he wasn’t exactly a true man yet, he was an immortal. Priestly Apotheosis is also a theme found in Genesis. While not obvious in English, those familiar with the Hebrew language used in Genesis and elsewhere in the Bible, leads one to conclude that Adam is a King-Priest. Adam was considered a son “of God” (Luke 3:38; Genesis 1:26; 2:15).

Okay that sounds interesting. 

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Enoch “walked with God” (Genesis 5:21-24). Enoch was initiated as a priest, as this is the meaning of his name, “Enoch [hnk (H#2585), initiated]” which Enoch was a new man, a new Adam, or rather an anti-Adam, he is reversing the Adamaic condition; he would reverse how one man had became fallen who was once divine and was able to walk and commune with God in a sacred space. Enoch began a new post-Adamaic age of priests after the manner of Adam. All Enochian literature explains that Enoch was initiated by angelic ministers with Priestly Robes and Anointing Myrrh oil, initiating him into the High Priesthood, and by a transfiguration, he transforms from human into a divine angelic being, "And my spirit was transfigured, And I cried with a loud voice... With the spirit of power and blessed, and glorified and extolled." (1 Enoch 71:11).

First Enoch, the Book of Dreams, is a Hebrew history encoded as an animal fable. In the ancient apocalyptic code, the angelic figures are "men" dressed in white (1 Enoch 87:2; 90:21, 31). While other unnamed, but recognizable, Biblical figures are born animals. However some of these animals eventually become "men", or rather, they are men who became divine beings. Noah is born a white bull, but after he is told a secret, he becomes a man (1 Enoch 89:1), and Moses is born a white sheep, but becomes a man (1 Enoch 89:36)., The Apocalypse of Weeks is also an encoded history told as a series of 10 "weeks", 10 ages of Israel, and the 'men' figures are Noah, Abraham and Elijah (1 En 93:4-5, 8).

Thus the initiated High Priest Enoch is prepared to stand before God. He goes to see God, and heaven has three levels, like Solomon's Temple (1 Enoch 14:8ff). Enoch stands before the heavenly throne to make intercession for the fallen angels that sinned (1 Enoch 15:2)). If Enoch saw the throne of God, though it doesn't say he saw the one upon the throne, or his body. One could assume he did.

Noah saw God

Noah, like Enoch was completely initiated into the priesthood, or as it says he was “prefect (H#8549) complete]” thus prepared, like Enoch, Noah “walked with God” (Genesis 6:9). Noah is a priest who would mediate and renew the Everlasting Covenant of Adam for his own generation. We can assume this because he received the same commission Adam did, which is the same commission that will be given to Abraham for his Everlasting Covenant.

Noah forges the Everlasting Covenant and sees a sign of God’s acceptance, the “bow”. However, this wasn’t simply a rainbow, God says Noah saw “My bow” (Genesis 9:3) it was a Rainbow Theophany. Rainbows describe the light of God’s glory, like others who have seen God, they report that God is surrounded by a light and glory, and that it looks like a rainbow (Ezekiel 1:26-28). But does he see God's spirit body, or just his glory?

Well...thank you for your inspiring lecture. 🙏 But uhm... is telnetd then right with this topic? Was the brother of jared greater in faith? Or where Adam and the brother of jared equal with their faith in the Lord our God? 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

uhm... is telnetd then right with this topic? Was the brother of jared greater in faith?

I don’t think we should measure faith as if it is only one thing and instead look at it as a combination of things…such one person may have their strongest faith in the Sacrament and others in tithing and still others in scripture and others in service and then all of them vary in strength in the other areas. 

While the brother of Jared had such strong faith in Christ or the Spirit perhaps he was able to see Christ apparently without a special blessing to do so, he had also sat on his bum for 4 years without praying to God for direction.   Maybe his faith grew massively after the four years while he was preparing for the voyage so I am wrong about this, but I see the story as demonstrating how we can very strong in one area of faith and not so much in another…perhaps the very strength in the one area discourages us from seeking God in other ways because we feel the lack in ourselves and prefer to avoid that feeling, so we rely on our strengths and avoid our weaknesses, never giving them a good chance to grow (faith grows by exercising it).

If I am correct, it doesn’t make sense to compare Adam or Noah or others’ faith with the brother of Jared’s faith because they were likely strong in different ways. 
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/ether/2?lang=eng

Quote

And it came to pass at the end of four years that the Lord came again unto the brother of Jared, and stood in a cloud and talked with him. And for the space of three hours did the Lord talk with the brother of Jared, and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord.

15 And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my thoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land choice above all other lands.

 

Edited November 17, 2024 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

9 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Okay that sounds interesting. 

Well...thank you for your inspiring lecture. 🙏 But uhm... is telnetd then right with this topic? Was the brother of jared greater in faith? Or where Adam and the brother of jared equal with their faith in the Lord our God? 

Telnatd purposely digs to find possible contradictions, to either resolve them in order to believe or not and disbelieve. Either Brother of Jared saw the Lord-Jesus's person in a way others who saw him before hadn't, maybe they had a 'knowledge' of God more than they had 'faith' in him, or they had faith but were 'shown' the Lord and did not randomly see him. Maybe the sight was proportioned according to his greater faith, but there is an alternative way to read it, in which his faith and vision of the personage of Jesus wasn't so different, rather the state or method in which Brother of Jared saw Him was different, maybe that is what Jesus meant there was never a "man" with the faith to see His spirit body meant. He wasn't an anointed priest, as he wouldn't be the last non-priest to see the Lord, but he could have been the first, as the Patriarchs were priests.

Edited November 18, 2024 by Pyreaux

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I agree. I like how members in comparing Latter-day Saint theology with ancient scripture naturally get most of the ancient ways correct. A created man =/= immortal Adam and transfigured/born again Enoch and Noah. Seeing God usually requires transfiguration, by which those we call "men", in scriptures they aren't considered men. But we also have freak occurrences, like Cornelius being worthy of the Holy Ghost before a cleansing baptism. It's not normal, but it may happen once.

I think that whether the brother of Jared’s held the priesthood or was transfigured as perquisite to the removal of the veil in the first place, while I believe likely, are beside the point, since the focus is not on veil protocol but on the quality and power of belief.

The veil was taken away from the brother of Jared’s eyes and he fell to the earth after seeing, in the “here and now,” the future flesh and blood finger of the Lord. The Lord did not remove the veil; the same eternal principle that enabled him to see the finger, exceptional to mortality, activated its removal. Having such faith, he could answer the Lord’s question, “Believest [present tense] thou the words which I shall [future tense] speak?” First, he believed in one thing (let’s say the records and priesthood inherited from Adam through Noah) so greatly that he perceived the completely unanticipated as current reality. Then he confessed his belief in the words Jesus had yet to say or show, having gained maximal trust in the power and potential of belief in Him. These two points, I believe, distinguish His exceptional and unexpected (freak?) belief from the others.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/16/2024 at 12:48 PM, CV75 said:

...and of course many say these records are temple dramas anyway.

Yes, of course.  And not just temple dramas, but liturgy generally.  The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is a weekly exoteric, public ordinance, with altar and priestly prayer and participation by the entire congregation -- which says "amen," and partakes of the holy emblems.

[Dario_M]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t think we should measure faith as if it is only one thing and instead look at it as a combination of things…

That was the question in the OP. I didn't make it up you see. 🤷‍♀️

10 hours ago, Calm said:

such one person may have their strongest faith in the Sacrament and others in tithing and still others in scripture and others in service and then all of them vary in strength in the other areas. 

Yes. How i read it i feel like telnetd means "faith in God or Jesus Christ". 

10 hours ago, Calm said:

While the brother of Jared had such strong faith in Christ or the Spirit perhaps he was able to see Christ apparently without a special blessing to do so, he had also sat on his bum for 4 years without praying to God for direction.  

Oh that sounds not very promising. Perhaps his faith in Jesus Christ was not that strong then. If you sit on your bum for 4 years that does not show a strong faith. 

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Maybe his faith grew massively after the four years while he was preparing for the voyage so I am wrong about this, but I see the story as demonstrating how we can very strong in one area of faith and not so much in another…perhaps the very strength in the one area discourages us from seeking God in other ways because we feel the lack in ourselves and prefer to avoid that feeling, so we rely on our strengths and avoid our weaknesses, never giving them a good chance to grow (faith grows by exercising it).

Faith grows by exercising it? It's not like you go to the gym to grow some extra faith.

However i feel like the more faith a person injoys the more effort that person is willing to do in changing his ways. So the stronger somebody has faith in God and Jesus Christ the more areas that person will hit. That shows how much devotion one has and therfore shows how strong his faith is. 

10 hours ago, Calm said:

If I am correct, it doesn’t make sense to compare Adam or Noah or others’ faith with the brother of Jared’s faith because they were likely strong in different ways. 
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/ether/2?lang=eng

 

Okay.

[Dario_M]

9 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Telnatd purposely digs to find possible contradictions, to either resolve them in order to believe or not and disbelieve.

No talnetd is asking or the brother of Jared had such a strong believe as Adam apparently had. 

9 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Either Brother of Jared saw the Lord-Jesus's person in a way others who saw him before hadn't, maybe they had a 'knowledge' of God more than they had 'faith' in him, or they had faith but were 'shown' the Lord and did not randomly see him.

Yes i get that but those are all questions. Where lies the truth? 

9 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

 Maybe the sight was proportioned according to his greater faith, but there is an alternative way to read it, in which his faith and vision of the personage of Jesus wasn't so different, rather the state or method in which Brother of Jared saw Him was different, maybe that is what Jesus meant there was never a "man" with the faith to see His spirit body meant. He wasn't an anointed priest, as he wouldn't be the last non-priest to see the Lord, but he could have been the first, as the Patriarchs were priests.

Okay. 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

That was the question in the OP. I didn't make it up you see. 🤷‍♀️

I know.  I think telnetd is asking the wrong question here though and that is why I responded.

16 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

 

Faith grows by exercising it? It's not like you go to the gym to grow some extra faith.

And you don’t have to go to a gym to grow bigger muscles.  You do have to use those muscles though.  Faith grows by using your faith, by exercising it.

definitions of exercise includes “use or apply (a faculty, right, or process)”.

Have you heard of the phrase “faith as a mustard seed”?  If one plants and nurtures even a tiny seed like a mustard seed, it will possibly grow into a very large plant and even under normal circumstances is massively bigger than the seed it started as.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2013/02/the-mustard-seed?lang=eng

16 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

However i feel like the more faith a person injoys the more effort that person is willing to do in changing his ways. So the stronger somebody has faith in God and Jesus Christ the more areas that person will hit. That shows how much devotion one has and therfore shows how strong his faith is.

I agree with this.  I believe strong faith in one area can help pull along, develop faith in other areas, just as when you learn to trust someone to be a good friend, you will be more likely to over time also trust them to be honest and compassionate.  As you grow in faith that Christ blesses you in some way, you will likely grow in faith that he loves you.

 

[Calm]

Alma 32 in the Book of Mormon has a lovely discussion on exercising faith.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/32?lang=eng#p27

or if you prefer…

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/32?lang=nld starting at verse 26

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

Edited November 18, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

I know.  I think telnetd is asking the wrong question here though and that is why I responded.

Something is wrong with his question? Why?

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

And you don’t have to go to a gym to grow bigger muscles.  You do have to use those muscles though.  Faith grows by using your faith, by exercising it.

I feel like faith is something that just...happens to you. Like a switch that flips over. One day you don't have any faith, the next day, boom! Your faith is within you. That's the holy ghost working inside of you. We don't have much control over that. If "faith in God" was really something you could exercise then way more people would have injoyed their "faith" in Jesus Christ. That's also why people who lose their faith in Jesus Christ mostly don't gain it back. That's why so many people who leave the LDS community never return back, or even join another church. They are mostly just done, and empty of faith. The faith in Jesus Christ they can't exercise back. God forbid. 

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

definitions of exercise includes “use or apply (a faculty, right, or process)”.

I thought that the definition of exercise was more like training for something so that you get better in it every day. Until you have reach your goal, and you have became really good at whatever you have traint for. 

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

Have you heard of the phrase “faith as a mustard seed”?  If one plants and nurtures even a tiny seed like a mustard seed, it will possibly grow into a very large plant and even under normal circumstances is massively bigger than the seed it started as.

Okay yeah that makes sense. But that is something the holy ghost is doing. Or the power of Jesus Christ is causing the seed to grow. Without that we're nothing. And we can exercise until we drop, but don't gain the real faith in God. 

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2013/02/the-mustard-seed?lang=eng

I agree with this.  I believe strong faith in one area can help pull along, develop faith in other areas, just as when you learn to trust someone to be a good friend, you will be more likely to over time also trust them to be honest and compassionate.  As you grow in faith that Christ blesses you in some way, you will likely grow in faith that he loves you.

I've learned that you can never fully trust on people. How close they may be. They can always betray you. Even people who are your dearest loved ones, family. Let alone plain friendships. It's said to say but in my experience people are not trustworthy. I have learn that the hard way. Though...if somebody ask me to trust him/her i will most likely say "yes." "I do." But in my mind i will always consider betrayal. So i don't think having faith in one of your friends is comparable with having "faith in Jesus Christ himself." 🌈

Edited November 18, 2024 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

58 minutes ago, Calm said:

Alma 32 in the Book of Mormon has a lovely discussion on exercising faith.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/32?lang=eng#p27

or if you prefer…

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/32?lang=nld starting at verse 26

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

How delightfull. A piece from the book of mormon. I saw the word "exercise" a few times passing by indeed. But i feel like in the book of mormon...when they describe "exercise" in faith it's not literaly an "exercise" that you perform in the gym or so. Wich you do at your own. Not with the great power of the holy ghost or Jesus Christ. I think you are taking the word "exercise" too literally

Edited November 18, 2024 by Dario_M

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

in faith it's not literaly an "exercise" that you perform in the gym or

“Exercise” in English can be used for much more than physical exercise.  It can be applying any effort in any endeavour over time.  Reading exercises my mind.  Doing service exercises my heart (figuratively for love).  Paying tithing exercises my faith.

In essence I am saying God gives us a seed of faith and then by us choosing to exercise or use that faith in our lives, our faith will grow…whether it’s by having faith not to smoke or drink, to be baptized, to pay tithing, to attend our meetings and fulfill our callings, whether it’s choosing to show faith by living the law of chastity or any other commandment…doing these things because we have faith they will bring the blessings God wants to give us is “exercising faith”.

Check out this link to a thesaurus.  The  definitions of “exercise” that would apply to “exercise your faith” would for the verb form, not noun.  Versions 1, 2, and 3 could all fit.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/exercise

 

Quote

. Ithink you are taking the word "exercise" too literally

I think you may be confused on how I am using it. While I can get creative in how I use words for fun, this time is typical mainstream English usage as is shown by a variety of Christians using the phrase in the way I am.  The ‘faith is a muscle’ is a frequent analogy, but is not required to make sense of the phrase.

https://ernestangley.org/read/article/exercising_faith#:~:text=To exercise the divine faith,you want it to grow.

https://biblestudiesforlife.lifeway.com/exercising-faith/

https://catholictt.org/2020/09/02/exercising-faith-in-the-now/#:~:text=Exercising our faith calls for,who are putting guidelines in

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/my-foundation-for-self-reliance/exercise-faith-in-jesus-christ?lang=eng

Edited November 18, 2024 by Calm