The brother of Jared's faith

[Dario_M]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

“Exercise” in English can be used for much more than physical exercise. It can be applying any effort in any endeavour over time.  Reading exercises my mind.  Doing service exercises my heart (figuratively for love).  Paying tithing exercises my faith.
 

Check out this link to a thesaurus.  The  definitions of “exercise” that would apply to “exercise your faith” would for the verb form, not noun.  Versions 1, 2, and 3 could all fit.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/exercise

Okay i will check it out. 

Edit, I have checked it out. That was basically what i have described as well.

Dear Lord. 🙏

Edited November 18, 2024 by Dario_M

[telnetd]

On 11/16/2024 at 11:05 AM, teddyaware said:

In light of the following account found in Moses 7, it’s undeniably obvious that the prophet Enoch (who preceded the brother of Jared) had a face-to-face eyewitness encounter with the Lord exactly like the epiphany experienced by the brother of Jared. Therefore an alternate interpretation to the literal, seemingly obvious surface meaning of the Lord’s words to the brother of Jared is required.

3 And it came to pass that I turned and went up on the mount; and as I stood upon the mount, I beheld the heavens open, and I was clothed upon with glory;

4 And I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face; and he said unto me: Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations. (Moses 7)

I believe the meaning of the Lord’s words to the brother of Jared can easily be clarified by the simple addition of the word “fallen.”

15 And never have I showed myself unto fallen man whom I have created, for never has fallen man 
believed in me as thou hast" (Ether 3) 

The key is that before a man can see God he must first be elevated from the fallen state by being “clothed upon with glory.”  Doctrine and Covenants 67 expresses this same spiritual concept thusly:

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind. (D&C 67)

How does Enoch's face to face with God (Moses 7:4) compare to face-face 
occurrences for Abraham (Genesis 18:1-2), Jacob (Genesis 32:30), the 
Israelites (Deuteronomy 5:4, Numbers 14:14), and Moses (Exodus 33:11)?

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

How does Enoch's face to face with God (Moses 7:4) compare to face-face 
occurrences for Abraham (Genesis 18:1-2), Jacob (Genesis 32:30), the 
Israelites (Deuteronomy 5:4, Numbers 14:14), and Moses (Exodus 33:11)?

It’s difficult for me to imagine how any of the face to face conversations these prophets had with the living God could be significantly different experiences in nature. After all, a face to face conversation with the Lord is a face to face conversation with the Lord, and it doesn’t get more intimate than that, The only possible differences I can think of would be had in the content and focus of the Lord’s words of direction given to each prophet.

I’ll take this opportunity to reiterate it’s clear that some of the prophets who preceded the brother of Jared did indeed speak with the Lord face to face, just as the brother of Jared spoke with the Lord face to face. In the Lord’s fascinating dialogue with the brother of Jared, I believe the Savior was simply reiterating the fact that no man can see God while he remains in his fallen state, and it’s only by experiencing a spiritual transfiguration from the fallen state to a state of holiness that a man is able to see God and live. For if a man sees God while he remains in the fallen state he’ll be instantly consumed by the glory of God and die. In a manner of speaking, the Lord has was making it clear to the brother of Jared that unregenerated man will never be able to find God by building lofty ‘towers’ of human invention.

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

It’s difficult for me to imagine how any of the face to face conversations these prophets had with the living God could be significantly different experiences in nature. After all, a face to face conversation with the Lord is a face to face conversation with the Lord, and it doesn’t get more intimate than that, The only possible differences I can think of would be had in the content and focus of the Lord’s words of direction given to each prophet.

I’ll take this opportunity to reiterate it’s clear that some of the prophets who preceded the brother of Jared did indeed speak with the Lord face to face, just as the brother of Jared spoke with the Lord face to face. In the Lord’s fascinating dialogue with the brother of Jared, I believe the Savior was simply reiterating the fact that no man can see God while he remains in his fallen state, and it’s only by experiencing a spiritual transfiguration from the fallen state to a state of holiness that a man is able to see God and live. For if a man sees God while he remains in the fallen state he’ll be instantly consumed by the glory of God and die. In a manner of speaking, the Lord has was making it clear to the brother of Jared that unregenerated man will never be able to find God by building lofty ‘towers’ of human invention.

While true that no one can see the Lord and live without being quickened or transfigured, I think the Lord’s statement to the brother of Jared was about having seen His flesh and blood finger in actuality (touching the stones) and not in a vision, or seeing and speaking with His spirit person.

The Lord said a similar thing to various people in his mortal ministry in pointing out their exceptional faith, typically unanticipated.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

typically unanticipated

Unanticipated by the person, correct?  Seems like the Lord who knows people’s hearts and minds would realize the possibility.

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unanticipated by the person, correct?  Seems like the Lord who knows people’s hearts and minds would realize the possibility.

Once the event occurred, the person(s) had to be educated about it by the Lord, so in that sense I think the significance of the experience was unanticipated by them.

Where with God all things are possible, and Jesus knew the hearts and minds of those with whom He interacted, I think (for the sake of discussion) He still faced some of the temporal barriers the rest of us mortals do. It may have taken a minute for Him to come to know their hearts and minds, and some of that might have depended on the particular interaction. An example is, "When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." (Luke 7:9).

He grew while in mortality from grace to grace, and even before His suffering in Gethsemane and on the cross He overcame so many mortal barriers He became omniscient and omnipotent in comparison to any other mortal, just by performing the miracles. But it seems to me that He could still be caught by surprise and marvel (Mark 6:6 -- in this case, unbelief; Matthew 8:10) despite any life/limb protection He might have received from the Father and angels.

[T-Shirt]

I think there is a simpler answer that doesn't require reading into the account what isn't there. The Brother of Jared asked the Lord how they would have light. The Lord then asked him what He should do. This is where we see the extreme faith. The Brother of Jared did not make suggestions or ask for guidance. He didn't present a plan or ask for permission, he simply went to the mountain and made the stones. He carried them back and after showing great humility and gratitude, he said:

Quote

 

4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have light while we shall cross the sea.

5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power, which looks small unto the understanding of men.

 

He did not ask the Lord to touch the stones, he told Him to do it, rather mater-of-factly. Because he knew the Lord could do it and would do it. The same thing happens a bit later just before seeing the premortal Christ, he did not ask if he could see Him, he told Him to show Himself to him. This, I think, is where the Brother of Jared showed faith like no other.

Now, as for the quote of the Lord, "And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast." I think the key to this is in the what the Lord actually said. He said, "Never have I showed myself unto man." The emphasis is on the word "I". As far as I know the Lord has never chosen, on His own, to show Himself to man. Every other time He was seen by man, He was instructed by the Father. This was the first time the premortal Christ had, on His own, without being instructed by the Father, showed Himself to man. The Brother of Jared displayed so much faith, he began to see through veil, without divine aid. This allowed the Lord to show Himself to the Brother of Jared without being instructed to do so by the Father.

This is the way I understand it.

Edited November 19, 2024 by T-Shirt

[teddyaware]

14 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

I think there is a simpler answer that doesn't require reading into the account what isn't there. The Brother of Jared asked the Lord how they would have light. The Lord then asked him what He should do. This is where we see the extreme faith. The Brother of Jared did not make suggestions or ask for guidance. He didn't present a plan or ask for permission, he simply went to the mountain and made the stones. He carried them back and after showing great humility and gratitude, he said:

He did not ask the Lord to touch the stones, he told Him to do it, rather mater-of-factly. Because he knew the Lord could do it and would do it. The same thing happens a bit later just before seeing the premortal Christ, he did not ask if he could see Him, he told Him to show Himself to him. This, I think, is where the Brother of Jared showed faith like no other.

Now, as for the quote of the Lord, "And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast." I think the key to this is in the what the Lord actually said. He said, "Never have I showed myself unto man." The emphasis is on the word "I". As far as I know the Lord has never chosen, on His own, to show Himself to man. Every other time He was seen by man, He was instructed by the Father. This was the first time the premortal Christ had, on His own, without being instructed by the Father, showed Himself to man. The Brother of Jared displayed so much faith, he began to see through veil, without divine aid. This allowed the Lord to show Himself to the Brother of Jared without being instructed to do so by the Father.

This is the way I understand it.

Please explain how the following demonstrations of mighty faith by the prophet Enoch, who preceded the brother of Jared, were one whit less powerful than the faith of the brother of Jared?

13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him. (Moses 7)

and…

20 And it came to pass that Enoch talked with the Lord; and he said unto the Lord: Surely Zion shall dwell in safety forever. But the Lord said unto Enoch: Zion have I blessed, but the residue of the people have I cursed.

21 And it came to pass that the Lord showed unto Enoch all the inhabitants of the earth; and he beheld, and lo, Zion, in process of time, was taken up into heaven. And the Lord said unto Enoch: Behold mine abode forever. (Moses 7)

Enoch’s faith was so great that he and the population of his entire city were taken up to dwell in heaven! So again I ask, how was Enoch’s faith in God any less real and equally powerful than the brother of Jared’s faith? As you’re formulating your response, please factor into your thinking that Enoch’s faith was so great that he didn’t just experience a theophany like the brother of Jared did, but he and his entire city of followers were given the most extraordinary blessing imaginable, that of being able to dwell at the Lord’s side in heaven!

Edited November 19, 2024 by teddyaware

[CV75]

14 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

I think there is a simpler answer that doesn't require reading into the account what isn't there. The Brother of Jared asked the Lord how they would have light. The Lord then asked him what He should do. This is where we see the extreme faith. The Brother of Jared did not make suggestions or ask for guidance. He didn't present a plan or ask for permission, he simply went to the mountain and made the stones. He carried them back and after showing great humility and gratitude, he said:

He did not ask the Lord to touch the stones, he told Him to do it, rather mater-of-factly. Because he knew the Lord could do it and would do it. The same thing happens a bit later just before seeing the premortal Christ, he did not ask if he could see Him, he told Him to show Himself to him. This, I think, is where the Brother of Jared showed faith like no other.

Now, as for the quote of the Lord, "And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast." I think the key to this is in the what the Lord actually said. He said, "Never have I showed myself unto man." The emphasis is on the word "I". As far as I know the Lord has never chosen, on His own, to show Himself to man. Every other time He was seen by man, He was instructed by the Father. This was the first time the premortal Christ had, on His own, without being instructed by the Father, showed Himself to man. The Brother of Jared displayed so much faith, he began to see through veil, without divine aid. This allowed the Lord to show Himself to the Brother of Jared without being instructed to do so by the Father.

This is the way I understand it.

Good thoughts! The part I like best is that the faith of the brother of Jared propelled him to see Jesus (and more miraculously, His finger of flesh anfd blood) without the Father introducing or instructing Jesus, or Jesus otherwise initiating His showing.

Reminds me of a righteous version of the kind of initiative Lucifer took in the Garden of Eden. :) 

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Please explain how the following demonstrations of mighty faith by the prophet Enoch, who preceded the brother of Jared, were one whit less powerful than the faith of the brother of Jared?

13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him. (Moses 7)

and…

20 And it came to pass that Enoch talked with the Lord; and he said unto the Lord: Surely Zion shall dwell in safety forever. But the Lord said unto Enoch: Zion have I blessed, but the residue of the people have I cursed.

21 And it came to pass that the Lord showed unto Enoch all the inhabitants of the earth; and he beheld, and lo, Zion, in process of time, was taken up into heaven. And the Lord said unto Enoch: Behold mine abode forever. (Moses 7)

Enoch’s faith was so great that he and the population of his entire city were taken up to dwell in heaven! So again I ask, how was Enoch’s faith in God any less real and equally powerful than the brother of Jared’s faith? As you’re formulating your response, please factor into your thinking that Enoch’s faith was so great that he didn’t just experience a theophany like the brother of Jared did, but he and his entire city of followers were given the most extraordinary blessing imaginable, that of being able to dwell at the Lord’s side in heaven!

Great, greater and greatest. The Lord did not use these terms in describing the brother of Jared's faith (but "such exceeding faith"). What should stand is why seeing His finger of flesh and blood represents such an exceptional event, even compared to all that Enoch accomplished by faith.

[teddyaware]

On 11/19/2024 at 12:05 PM, CV75 said:

Great, greater and greatest. The Lord did not use these terms in describing the brother of Jared's faith (but "such exceeding faith"). What should stand is why seeing His finger of flesh and blood represents such an exceptional event, even compared to all that Enoch accomplished by faith.

Because as a consequence of the mightiness of Enoch’s unsurpassed faith, he and the faithful population of his entire great city were carried up to heaven and translated to dwell in Christ’s immediate presence for thousands of years, not just enjoying the blessing of communing with the Lord for a limited period of time, as the brother of Jared did, only to have to return to living in the fallen world where his faith, obedience and devotion to God would inevitably undergo further testing.

The difference is found in comparing the account of a lone man who had the faith to see and wonderfully commune with the spirit body of the Lord for a limited period of time, and then compare that experience, as wonderful as it is, with thousands of others being lifted up by the power of their faith to obtain a mighty spiritual transformation of their bodies that would enable them to dwell in the immediate presence of the Lord as heavenly citizens until the time of the Savior’s Second Coming. To my mind, there’s no way to logically twist and turn out of the fact that Enoch and his people had, at very least, faith equal in power and quality to the faith of the brother of Jared. What is qualitatively different between seeing the finger of the Lord and communing with him, and seeing and communing with the Savior as he’s is shedding a flood of heartbroken tears?

But in actuality, there is a very real qualitative difference between these two marvelous epiphanies: The brother of Jared was still a mortal man when he experienced his epiphany, but the prophet Enoch was so holy that was already a translated resident of heaven when he had the following dramatic encounter with the Lord.

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?

30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

 32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood; (Moses 7)

 

 

Edited November 20, 2024 by teddyaware

[CV75]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Because as a consequence of the mightiness of Enoch’s unsurpassed faith, he and the faithful population of his entire great city were carried up to heaven and translated to dwell in Christ’s immediate presence for thousands of years, not just enjoying the blessing of communing with the Lord for a limited period of time, as the brother of Jared did, only to have to return to living in the fallen world where his faith, obedience and devotion to God would inevitably undergo further testing.

The difference is found in comparing the account of a lone man who had the faith to see and wonderfully commune with the spirit body of the Lord for a limited period of time, and then compare that experience, as wonderful as it is, with thousands of others being lifted up by the power of their faith to obtain a mighty spiritual transformation of their bodies that would enable them to dwell in the immediate presence of the Lord as heavenly citizens until the time of the Savior’s Second Coming. To my mind, there’s no way to logically twist and turn out of the fact that Enoch and his people had, at very least, faith equal in power and quality to the faith of the brother of Jared. What is qualitatively different between seeing the finger of the Lord and communing with him, and seeing and communing with the Savior as he’s is shedding a flood of heartbroken tears?

But in actuality, there is a very real qualitative difference between these two marvelous epiphanies: The brother of Jared was still a mortal man when he experienced his epiphany, but the prophet Enoch was so holy that was already a translated resident of heaven when he had the following dramatic encounter with the Lord.

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?

30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

 32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood; (Moses 7)

 

 

While Enoch’s deeds differ from seeing the premortal spirit Lord’s flesh and blood finger as a completed event, you fail to establish his faith as greater than the brother of Jared’s. You are selling your opinion, and you are among the greatest of hype men, if not the GHMOAT (Greatest Hype Man Of All Time!), for Enoch!

(and both men had more than one epiphany, and there is more of Enoch’s published for us for the time being than the brother of Jared’s)

As to your question, the qualitative difference between seeing the premortal spirit Lord’s flesh and blood finger and seeing the premortal spirit Lord weeping (note the Enoch passage mentions no spirit tears, it is used poetically), is the present, tangible manifestation of the Lord’s future mortal, second estate (note the brother of Jared passage emphasizes blood) by “such exceeding” faith. The comparatively greater volume written of Enoch’s experience, and selling Enoch’s as more impressive even though “there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared,” rendering them potentially equal in the end -- as it should be for all of us as joint heirs by grace -- has nothing to do with this.

[Calm]

Just came across this and thought some might find it interesting as a side topic to this thread…

https://scripturecentral.org/knowhy/why-did-jesus-say-never-have-i-showed-myself-unto-man

[teddyaware]

On 11/20/2024 at 2:45 PM, CV75 said:

While Enoch’s deeds differ from seeing the premortal spirit Lord’s flesh and blood finger as a completed event, you fail to establish his faith as greater than the brother of Jared’s. You are selling your opinion, and you are among the greatest of hype men, if not the GHMOAT (Greatest Hype Man Of All Time!), for Enoch!

(and both men had more than one epiphany, and there is more of Enoch’s published for us for the time being than the brother of Jared’s)

As to your question, the qualitative difference between seeing the premortal spirit Lord’s flesh and blood finger and seeing the premortal spirit Lord weeping (note the Enoch passage mentions no spirit tears, it is used poetically), is the present, tangible manifestation of the Lord’s future mortal, second estate (note the brother of Jared passage emphasizes blood) by “such exceeding” faith. The comparatively greater volume written of Enoch’s experience, and selling Enoch’s as more impressive even though “there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared,” rendering them potentially equal in the end -- as it should be for all of us as joint heirs by grace -- has nothing to do with this.

What I’m actually saying is that based on the many mighty miracles he wrought and the fact that he too intimately communed with the Lord face to face that Enoch’s faith was surely at least equal to the power of the faith manifested by the brother of Jared. And while the mighty faith of the brother of Jared did provide miraculous means to light the Jaredite barges as they traveled across the great deep, and this same great faith did enable him to have his calling and election made sure, it must also be reasonably acknowledged that Enoch’s faith was so great that it enabled not only him but his entire city of followers to have their callings and elections made sure, and then be miraculously translated to dwell with the Lord in heaven. Short of the miraculous infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of the Savior, this perfecting of the entire population a great city has to be the greatest manifestation of miraculous faith the world has ever seen!

Can you think of a miracle wrought by faith that’s any greater than when Enoch and his entire city were fully sanctified and perfected to the point that dwelling in the immediate presence of the Savior in heaven with was the only fit place for them to dwell? Given these incontrovertible facts, how could anyone reasonably conclude that Enoch’s faith was in any way less mighty and powerful than the faith of the brother of Jared? Read Moses 7 with real intent and then tell me you still think Enoch’s faith was even slightly less powerful than the faith of the brother of Jared?

 

Edited November 23, 2024 by teddyaware

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

What I’m actually saying is that based on the many mighty miracles he wrought and the fact that he too intimately communed with the Lord face to face that Enoch’s faith was surely at least equal to the power of the faith manifested by the brother of Jared. And while the mighty faith of the brother of Jared did provide miraculous means to light the Jaredite barges as they traveled across the great deep, and this same great faith did enable him to have his calling and election made sure, it must also be reasonably acknowledged that Enoch’s faith was so great that it enabled not only him but his entire city of followers to have their callings and elections made sure, and then be miraculously translated to dwell with the Lord in heaven. Short of the miraculous infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of the Savior, this perfecting of the entire population a great city has to be the greatest manifestation of miraculous faith the world has ever seen!

Can you think of a miracle wrought by faith that’s any greater than when Enoch and his entire city were fully sanctified and perfected to the point that dwelling in the immediate presence of the Savior in heaven with was the only fit place for them to dwell? Given these incontrovertible facts, how could anyone reasonably conclude that Enoch’s faith was in any way less mighty and powerful than the faith of the brother of Jared? Read Moses 7 with real intent and then tell me you still think Enoch’s faith was even slightly less powerful than the faith of the brother of Jared?

 

Yes, even equal is just as inappropriate a comparison in this case, in light of what the Lord told the brother of Jared on the exceptional point of seeing His flesh and blood finger. Everything else is a matter of faith also, but this point renders his faith exceptional to any other man (“never” means never, and He said it twice, and had it put in writing). No one else had ever exercised “such exceeding faith.”

And yes, this product of faith is greater than all the selling points you make about Enoch’s faith. I I recommend you ask clarifying questions about my explanations, because you haven’t yet addressed them directly.

[teddyaware]

45 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, even equal is just as inappropriate a comparison in this case, in light of what the Lord told the brother of Jared on the exceptional point of seeing His flesh and blood finger. Everything else is a matter of faith also, but this point renders his faith exceptional to any other man (“never” means never, and He said it twice, and had it put in writing). No one else had ever exercised “such exceeding faith.”

And yes, this product of faith is greater than all the selling points you make about Enoch’s faith. I I recommend you ask clarifying questions about my explanations, because you haven’t yet addressed them directly.

Well then, do you actually believe that when Enoch, a mighty prophet of the redeeming Savior, saw and conversed with the spirit body of Christ face to face that he didn’t realize he was looking at the spirit body that would one day be clothed upon with a tabernacle of flesh and blood, a truth that he oft prophesied? And do you mean to tell me that when Enoch and his perfected people were lifted up to heaven to be with the Savior that they didn’t realize they were looking at the spirit body of the Christ that they had a sure knowledge would one day be clothed upon with a body of flesh and blood? This is ridiculous and strains all credulity.

Edited November 23, 2024 by teddyaware

[CV75]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Well then, do you actually believe that when Enoch, a mighty prophet of the redeeming Savior, saw and conversed with the spirit body of Christ face to face that he didn’t realize he was looking at the spirit body that would one day be clothed upon with a tabernacle of flesh and blood, a truth that he oft prophesied? And do you mean to tell me that when Enoch and his perfected people were lifted up to heaven to be with the Savior that they didn’t realize they were looking at the spirit body of the Christ that they had a sure knowledge would one day be clothed upon with a body of flesh and blood? This is ridiculous and strains all credulity.

There’s another thread about insincere questions – I think you’ve nailed it!

You need to stop using sacred things as red herrings and strawmen and fodder for polemics. Yes, they knew the doctrines, prophecies, visions about the future. But that is not the exceptional thing the brother of Jared saw, when, and how (Ether 3:6 - 9). I would like to see you properly and correctly, and in good faith, restate what I’ve said that bothers you, and / or ask direct questions about it.