Tim Ballard as Plaintiff - He's Filed 2 Lawsuits

[smac97]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect that the statement the apostles made

What "statement" was "made" by "apostles"?

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

was with a lot more information than we have

I would hope so.

And yet I think the statement should have been qualified so as to let "due process" play out unhampered.

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

and that the statement they made was downright charitable compared to what they could have said.

Could be.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here, the Church made a statement impugning Tim Ballard's morality, at which point in time he had not been given "due process," an opportunity to address the allegations against him

Again, you do not know this. If the accusations against him are true, he is a bold faced liar.  Elder Ballard may well have given him a chance to defend himself. I would be shocked if he hadn’t. 
 

Tim Ballard acted like it all was a surprise to him when the Vice article came out with the accusation from the Church. Problem with that is his legal issues had started quite sometime before. He had been let go at OUR, etc. From the above article, his bishop had been asked for a letter about his standing ahead of time for a lawsuit.  His bishop isn’t going to say anything about it to him? 

 The above and more of the same is why I don’t buy his clueless, blindsided act after the announcement and his no one ever talked to me about it comments.  I suspect he waited long enough to see if the Church would say more, maybe got info from his bishop or SP; when nothing more was added, he felt safe enough to come forward with his innocent, laughable it’s a rogue PR claim.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I am sorry, but I don't understand your point here. 

The Church is a church run in revelation and policies that are described as guidelines, not rules.

That is very different from a judicial organization.

I don’t think it is appropriate to act like a non judicial organization like ours has a “due process” system.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Calm

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

Here, the Church made a statement impugning Tim Ballard's morality, at which point in time he had not been given "due process," an opportunity to address the allegations against him

Again, you do not know this.

It's a reasonable surmise.  Just look at the dates.

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

If the accusations against him are true, he is a bold faced liar.  

"If."

And who knows how many of the allegations are valid, how many are distorted, exaggerated, fabricated, etc.

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Elder Ballard may well have given him a chance to defend himself.

In what setting?  Where?  When?

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would be shocked if he hadn’t.

The Church has a process for a member "to defend himself."  It's a membership council at the local level.  That council apparently did not happen until after the Church publicly condemned Tim Ballard.

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Tim Ballard acted like it all was a surprise to him when the Vice article came out with the accusation from the Church.

"{A}cted like."

What if he really was surprised?  

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Problem with that is his legal issues had started quite sometime before.

And in my experience, the Church waits until legal issues are sorted out and then proceed with the membership council.

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

The above and more of the same is why I don’t buy his clueless, blindsided act a week or so iirc after the announcement and his no one ever talked to me about it comments.  

Understandable.  Still, the "due process" thing remains a concern for me.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

What "statement" was "made" by "apostles"?

The one they undoubtedly approved before the PR department put it out.

Unless some people got fired for going rogue and there is a retraction coming but it seems like that all would have happened by now.

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I would hope so.

And yet I think the statement should have been qualified so as to let "due process" play out unhampered.

Church membership councils are not anything i would legally compare to due process.

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Could be.

I know two people who have worked with Tim Ballard. If half of what they say is true……..yikes.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

It's a reasonable surmise.

Not in my mind.  I think church leaders, especially with Elder Ballard being a friend, checked to make sure he wasn’t being targeted.  I believe they are well aware of the problems celebrities have with people wanting to bring them down or make money off of them by creating scandals.  They have had enough lawsuits thrown at the Church that are not accurate in the claims they wouldn’t just assume the accusers/plaintiffs  were telling the truth,  I don’t think they would have only looked at one side, at least not unless the documentation was pretty solid.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

What if he really was surprised?  

Right…because somehow he had no knowledge in spite of being terminated from OUR, OUR being investigated for a couple of years by the state, etc.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

The Church has a process for a member "to defend himself."  It's a membership council at the local level.  That council apparently did not happen until after the Church publicly condemned Tim Ballard.

It isn’t the only process in my experience.  In fact, I would say personal interviews not only happen much more often, unless the member refuses to come in, from what I have been told they typically happen before any official action.  Dehlin had years of meeting with his SP iirc.  Kelly had at least one meeting she admitted to iirc.  People I have known always were in counseling with the bishop prior to moving towards a council.

If someone is having issues, which would you expect to happen first?  He gets invited to meet with the bishop or he gets a letter telling him there is a council being held at such and such a time?

Edited November 12, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

Surely the Church as well as Elder Ballard risked a major defamation lawsuit for that accusation from both Tim Ballard and OUR.  There is no way it would have been issued without some investigation.  Church leaders are not stupid.

Quote

Once it became clear Tim Ballard had betrayed their friendship, through the unauthorized use of President Ballard’s name for Tim Ballard’s personal advantage and activity regarded as morally unacceptable, President Ballard withdrew his association," the statement reads in part. "President Ballard never authorized his name, or the name of the Church, to be used for Tim’s personal or financial interests. In addition, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints never endorsed, funded, supported or represented OUR, Tim Ballard or any projects associated with them."

 

Edited November 12, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Shortly after the above statement went public, Tim Ballard made a public statement (apparently on September 17, 2023) that he "never used Elder Ballard's name, ever," that he has "never traded on his {Pres. Ballard's} name," that he "never had any business dealings with him {Pres. Ballard}," and that he does not believe that the statement came from the Church.

Vice published an article in June about sexual misconduct and other stuff leading to his resignation.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/operation-underground-railroad-criminal-investigation-human-trafficking-tim-ballard-jim-caviezel-qanon/

Includes reference to the white board, so the accusation he was using Elder Ballard’s name was out there.

Quote

American Crime Journal, which has extensively covered OUR, published a piece in April in which editor Damion Moore reported that investigators were particularly interested in a photo of a whiteboard drawn by Ballard that had been shared with them, which takes the form of a diagram laying out connections among these entities. It was the result of an August 2019 meeting at which, ACJ reported, “Ballard laid out a secret plan to monetize his child sex slave rescue nonprofit […] and proselytize prospective converts for the Mormon church” to close associates

August 2020…

Quote

 

VICE World News has further confirmed that a letter written in August 2020 by people who say they are concerned former female employees and volunteers at OUR has been circulating in influential charitable and philanthropic circles in Utah. The letter was independently shared with us by several people in different spheres connected to OUR.  Among other things, it accuses Ballard and the organization’s leadership of misusing donor funds and misconduct toward women, including running operations in ways that increase demand for trafficking victims—a concern echoed by former OUR operators and experts interviewed by VICE World News.

 

Ballard having to be aware of accusations about him being everywhere is again demonstrated here…

https://www.vice.com/en/article/tim-ballard-left-operation-underground-railroad-after-investigation-into-claims-made-by-employees/

from July 2023

Quote

An anonymous letter sent to employees of and donors to the anti-trafficking group Operation Underground Railroad asserts that founder Tim Ballard left the organization recently after an internal investigation into claims made against him by multiple employees—something which OUR does not dispute. 

The letter was shared with Motherboard by a person active in Utah philanthropic circles, who said that it is a topic of conversation among OUR donors. A separate source, who did not mention the letter, reached out to Motherboard last week to report that employees at OUR learned recently about an internal investigation at OUR into allegations against Ballard. 

 

Edited November 12, 2024 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

FWIW, though: My current assessment is that Tim Ballard probably did some bad things.  The "Couple's Ruse" thing just doesn't pass the smell test for me, particularly in light of some of the published text messages from him.  However, my current assessment is also that some of the allegations against him may be exaggerated, distorted, fabricated, etc.  This sort of thing happens in litigation.  

Thanks,

I think that’s fair.  
That said,  certain I’d not break bread with the guy, like ever, because he doesn’t pass my sniff test. 🤮

[Calm]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

think the Church's statement could and should have been framed so that the Church was speaking tentatively, without the conclusory statements regarding Tim Ballard's conduct.  The Church could have distanced itself from Tim Ballard without overtly and publicly impugning his character, without seemingly contravening - or calling into some question - the Church's statements elsewhere that disciplinary matters are handled at the local level.

 

And maybe you should consider why the Church leaders allowed this to happen in this one case with their extensive experience with other legal cases and with Kirton-McConkie on tap to protect them from making missteps that result in defamation suits?

[Calm]

9 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't know.  It sure looks damning.  But do we know who wrote the items on the whiteboard?  Per the Vice article, it was "drawn by Tim Ballard in 2019," but no explanation is given as to where, under what circumstances, who took the photograph, how Vice confirmed Tim Ballard drew it, etc.

I am certain I posted the material on the board before when we were debating Elder Ballard’s involvement.

American Crime Journal was the first to break the whiteboard story and they provided quite a few details.

https://americancrimejournal.com/acj-investigates/operation-underground-railroad-o-u-r/the-whiteboard-meeting/

Davis County documents have Paul Hutchinson as the one taking the photo, I believe.  He at he very least was at the meeting and was the one who sent the photo to Dave Lopez (since they all signed NDA, it would be odd if Lopez hadn’t been at the meeting) who gave it to Rawlings as well as text messages showing that Tim Ballard was claiming Elder Ballard was a silent partner in Slave Stealers.  According to Lynn Packer Dave Lopez was also at that meeting which would explain how he knew the details to give to Rawlings.  Possibly two other unknowns if he didn’t mean Tim Ballard was one of them.

https://americancrimejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2020-Davis-County-Criminal-Inv.pdf

Edited November 12, 2024 by Calm

[longview]

  

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

These accusers have no reason to collude against him. Claiming to have been victimized is not a path to happiness or celebrity. It is humiliating and exhausting. One crazy person is easy to dismiss because sometimes people are irrational. This many? I doubt it.

They could very well have been bribed (lucratively) to make charges against him. Regardless if they get a verdict against him, they will have made life much more difficult for him. If they do prevail, they will get monetary damages in addition to their secret payments.

Who would have bribed these women? I do not know specifically. As an example, proprietors Jeffery Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell ran a secret operation at the so-called pedo-island serving the depraved tastes of high-rollers and powerful figures. Jeffery was charged and ended up in prison where he was murdered under extremely suspicious circumstances. There are elements in various governments to try to keep this under wraps. Otherwise the public would have obtained fuller knowledge of the "client list" long before now!

1 hour ago, Calm said:

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

What if he really was surprised?  

Right…because somehow he had no knowledge in spite of being terminated from OUR, OUR being investigated for a couple of years by the state, etc.

Do you have suspicions of OUR being a criminal organization? Could OUR be subjected to pressures by the same elements of government mentioned above? Human trafficking is a HUGE business. Naturally there are many cartels and secret organizations with some corruption in government determined to keep it going. That includes delegitimizing OUR and Tim.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, longview said:

Do you have suspicions of OUR being a criminal organization? Could OUR be subjected to pressures by the same elements of government mentioned above? Human trafficking is a HUGE business. Naturally there are many cartels and secret organizations with some corruption in government determined to keep it going. That includes delegitimizing OUR and Tim.

I am not following what this has to do with my comment that Tim Ballard’s earlier termination from OUR for sexual misconduct, etc and OUR being investigated for a couple of years demonstrate he wouldn’t have been clueless as to why the Church issued the statement.

[MiserereNobis]

3 minutes ago, longview said:

Naturally there are many cartels and secret organizations with some corruption in government determined to keep it going. That includes delegitimizing OUR and Tim.

I knew it! The LDS Church is involved in human trafficking, that’s why they issued the statement delegitimizing Tim. 
 

All those books and movies are true! Young girls abducted to satisfy the lust of polygamous husbands!

[longview]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I knew it! The LDS Church is involved in human trafficking, that’s why they issued the statement delegitimizing Tim. 
 

All those books and movies are true! Young girls abducted to satisfy the lust of polygamous husbands!

No. You're getting overwrought my dear friend.

[longview]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not following what this has to do with my comment that Tim Ballard’s earlier termination from OUR for sexual misconduct, etc and OUR being investigated for a couple of years demonstrate he wouldn’t have been clueless as to why the Church issued the statement.

You don't know the whole backstory to this. Either jointly or separately for OUR and Tim.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, longview said:

You don't know the whole backstory to this. Either jointly or separately for OUR and Tim.

Got to say my reaction to this is “Duh”.

I am still not getting the connection to what I was talking about, how this is relevant.  My comment doesn’t need the allegations to even be true as I was simply showing Tim Ballard was aware of them.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, longview said:

  They could very well have been bribed (lucratively) to make charges against him. Regardless if they get a verdict against him, they will have made life much more difficult for him. If they do prevail, they will get monetary damages in addition to their secret payments.

Who would have bribed these women? I do not know specifically. As an example, proprietors Jeffery Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell ran a secret operation at the so-called pedo-island serving the depraved tastes of high-rollers and powerful figures. Jeffery was charged and ended up in prison where he was murdered under extremely suspicious circumstances. There are elements in various governments to try to keep this under wraps. Otherwise the public would have obtained fuller knowledge of the "client list" long before now!

You are hinting that Tim Ballard could have released the Epstein list? Or are you just making baseless comparisons? There is no motive here. Ballard wasn’t about to expose anybody.

3 hours ago, longview said:

Do you have suspicions of OUR being a criminal organization? Could OUR be subjected to pressures by the same elements of government mentioned above? Human trafficking is a HUGE business. Naturally there are many cartels and secret organizations with some corruption in government determined to keep it going. That includes delegitimizing OUR and Tim.

Tim Ballard is a boon to human trafficking higher ups. He only targets low-level amateur hour groups in his ‘stings’ and conveys the idea that the best way to end human trafficking is to give a bunch of guys guns and let them loose to stage quasi-military stings and raids. He directs money that could go to fighting human trafficking effectively to his own organization and makes human trafficking a little bit safer.

No, I don’t think they would bother to take down Ballard. The motive isn’t there.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I knew it! The LDS Church is involved in human trafficking, that’s why they issued the statement delegitimizing Tim. 
 

All those books and movies are true! Young girls abducted to satisfy the lust of polygamous husbands!

If you mention the secret underground tunnel that goes from England to the basement of the Salt Lake Temple you won’t suvive the night. The Danites are watching……

Always watching……….

[smac97]

58 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

I am sorry, but I don't understand your point here. 

The Church is a church run in revelation and policies that are described as guidelines, not rules.

And yet local leaders are required to adhere to these guidelines and rules.  And here, the local leaders apparently did.

I agree that the Church, in the macro sense, is guided by revelation.  And yet the Church will still make mistakes here and there.

I think the Church is better off in handling matters of church governance in accordance with its own rules and statements.  To wit: "Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters."  Here, the stake president likely knew about the Church's published statement before convening the membership council for Tim Ballard.  Did the Church's statement put the stake president in a difficult position?

58 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is very different from a judicial organization.

I acknowledge that.  However, the Handbook's provisions regarding membership councils have substantial "due process"-style components.

58 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t think it is appropriate to act like a non judicial organization like ours has a “due process” system.

Except it does.

Thanks,

-Smac

[longview]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You are hinting that Tim Ballard could have released the Epstein list? Or are you just making baseless comparisons? There is no motive here. Ballard wasn’t about to expose anybody.

Devious attempt on your part at misdirection. I did NOT hint at Tim having access to that list. You are desperately trying to understate the involvement of "higher ups" to curtail OUR and Tim. Because Tim's earth-shaking movie "Sound of Freedom" made a huge impact in raising public awareness of the massive underground scourge of human trafficking. Which the "higher ups" have a vested interest in destroying the legitimacy of OUR and Tim and many other "small scale organizations" that do try to fight this terrible plague. The Epstein operation was part and parcel of this worldwide secret obscenity which does include the "higher ups".

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Tim Ballard is a boon to human trafficking higher ups.

No. Tim is a heavy-duty threat to the underground conspiracy (fact). That includes government agencies that soft peddle the extent of human trafficking. Which was why Tim got frustrated and made the decision to leave government employment and organize with other allies (including South American governments) in making daring rescues of many children.

Warfare is brutal and violent with sometimes unavoidable injuries and deaths of innocent bystanders. As is the case for the military so it is with law enforcement and anti-trafficking efforts. I am NOT claiming Tim is lily-white and pure. We don't know for sure what lines Tim has crossed that would put him in legal and moral jeopardy.

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

He only targets low-level amateur hour groups in his ‘stings’ and conveys the idea that the best way to end human trafficking is to give a bunch of guys guns and let them loose to stage quasi-military stings and raids. He directs money that could go to fighting human trafficking effectively to his own organization and makes human trafficking a little bit safer.

You are just blathering. Tim was a professional. From the Google:

Quote

Tim Ballard worked for the Department of Homeland Security as a Special Agent for over a decade. He was part of the Internet Crimes Against Children (ICAC) Task Force and the Child Sex Tourism Jump Team.
Ballard's work involved infiltrating child trafficking organizations as an undercover operative in the United States and other countries. He would take on the role of a child trafficker or pedophile to gain evidence that could lead to arrests and legal action. Ballard helped dismantle many trafficking organizations during his time at Homeland Security.

Ballard left the government in 2013 to found Operation Underground Railroad (O.U.R.), a private organization that works to combat human trafficking. He is currently a Senior Advisor in Rescue Operations for The SPEAR Fund. 

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, I don’t think they would bother to take down Ballard. The motive isn’t there.

You could NOT be more WRONG! You have lied about Tim's professionalism.

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And yet local leaders are required to adhere to these guidelines and rules.  And here, the local leaders apparently did.

I agree that the Church, in the macro sense, is guided by revelation.  And yet the Church will still make mistakes here and there.

I think the Church is better off in handling matters of church governance in accordance with its own rules and statements.  

I don’t disagree.  What I disagree with is calling that method “due process”.  It contributes to setting up expectations that the Church acts like a juidical organization when it comes to membership councils.

I think that attitude is already enough present so that some people get upset when they find out they can’t handle things like they can in court, such as choosing someone to defend them or presenting their own defense like cross examining ‘witnesses’ meaning leaders, having whoever they want be witnesses, and being able to have whoever they want come into the council to support or witness the proceedings.  Iirc, Snuffer refused to attend his council because they wouldn’t let his children in as spectators.  Runnells, if I understand correctly, presents his council as a “kangaroo court” because he couldn’t cross examine the Stake President and others (he was recording them as well).  As long as others expect the Church to run councils like actual trials, including anything that comes before the council, they will be seeing church leaders as violating the rules when it turns out that is not how things are done.  

And that can cause unnecessary offense and pain for the individual and their friends and family who may even lose faith in the Church because of the supposedly unfair treatment they see themselves as receiving (or so it seems from the conversations I have seen online about it).   And for those who are apostates, it can become part of their public narrative of how they were so wronged by the Church like Runnells played it with even a press conference afterwards iirc.

Quote

Except it does

No, it doesn’t.  Sharing some similarities and having its own relatively consistent system does not mean that the Church has a set legalish process that if not followed closely enough means the person has a right to appeal and challenge any findings and get them vacated.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Calm

[teddyaware]

11 minutes ago, longview said:

Devious attempt on your part at misdirection. I did NOT hint at Tim having access to that list. You are desperately trying to understate the involvement of "higher ups" to curtail OUR and Tim. Because Tim's earth-shaking movie "Sound of Freedom" made a huge impact in raising public awareness of the massive underground scourge of human trafficking. Which the "higher ups" have a vested interest in destroying the legitimacy of OUR and Tim and many other "small scale organizations" that do try to fight this terrible plague. The Epstein operation was part and parcel of this worldwide secret obscenity which does include the "higher ups".

No. Tim is a heavy-duty threat to the underground conspiracy (fact). That includes government agencies that soft peddle the extent of human trafficking. Which was why Tim got frustrated and made the decision to leave government employment and organize with other allies (including South American governments) in making daring rescues of many children.

Warfare is brutal and violent with sometimes unavoidable injuries and deaths of innocent bystanders. As is the case for the military so it is with law enforcement and anti-trafficking efforts. I am NOT claiming Tim is lily-white and pure. We don't know for sure what lines Tim has crossed that would put him in legal and moral jeopardy.

You are just blathering. Tim was a professional. From the Google:

You could NOT be more WRONG! You have lied about Tim's professionalism.

At the start of this thread I said that there are individuals on this board who fervently want Tim Ballard to be found guilty of all the charges that have been made against him. Why? Because in their minds they believe Ballard is  already guilty before all the pertinent evidence has been presented and fully aired in impartial courts of law. This approach of guilty before trial smacks of Lavrentiy Beria‘s “show me the man and I’ll find you the crime” method of “legal justice.”

Personally, I’m on the fence when it comes to Ballard’s guilt or innocence, and will not settle the cases made against him in my own mind until all the evidence, both pro and con, has fully been presented. Those who’ve already decided that Ballard is guilty before all the evidence has been fully disclosed should excuse themselves from any jury service in the future by making it clear they cannot be impartial because their minds are hardwired to make hasty judgements based on what they want to be true, rather than being able to exercise the mental and moral discipline needed to put on the blindfold of Lady Justice and give all the evidence a fair hearing and careful, conscientious analysis. I guess there are some who haven’t taken to heart the lessons they should have learned and internalized after reading about that unjust, presumptuous mob who cried out, “give us Barabbus!’