A new batch of new hymns

[Bernard Gui]

50 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't know that many people agree with that. 

Quote

Nephi's lament (where he calls himself a wretch) is a lot of people's favorite chapters in the whole Book of Mormon. 

Most of the anti-Mormon bigotry I have experienced comes from the Protestant camp, so I don't feel much affinity with it because we are a Restored not a Reformed Church. That is not to say that there aren't wonderful Christians among Protestant believers.

Nephi's psalm is indeed a favorite, but I have never heard a General Authority or read an LDS text that refers to Latter-day Saints as "wretches." It's not in our parlance. Calling ourselves wretched contradicts all the efforts made to affirm our divine nature. The proof is that the use of this word in the song has to be explained away. To me it has more the flavor of the Calvinistic TULIP "Total Depravity" than this LDS expression of faith:

 

Quote

I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents, with a divine nature and eternal destiny.

As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I strive to become like Him. I seek and act upon personal revelation and minister to others in His holy name.

I will stand as a witness of God at all times and in all things and in all places.

As I strive to qualify for exaltation, I cherish the gift of repentance and seek to improve each day. With faith, I will strengthen my home and family, make and keep sacred covenants, and receive the ordinances and blessings of the holy temple.

 "I Am a Child of God" is much more descriptive of the self-view to which we are encouraged to hold.

Quote

Imagine you are meeting someone for the first time and he or she says, “Tell me about yourself.” What would you say? It would depend on the setting, of course, but the facts you choose to share can say a lot about how you see yourself—and how you want others to see you.

There is one fact about you that is more important than all the others. And while you may not bring it up when introducing yourself, it is more fundamental to your identity than your name, your hometown, or your personal interests. It is the fact that you are a child of God. He is your Father. Just as you have parents on earth from whom you inherited physical traits, you are also “a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, [you have] a divine nature and destiny.” How can this fact affect the way you see yourself? How could it change your approach to life’s challenges and opportunities?  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/children-of-god-study-guide?lang=eng

I wouldn't call myself a wretch when asked to tell about myself, but that is my opinion, of course. I'm sure there are those here who would disagree. 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

A bishop should have a doctrinal reason for not approving something.

There are a number of reasons (other than doctrinal) why a bishop may not approve of a performance in sacrament meetings. Anything doctrinal about not wanting to have a youthful Praise Band perform Christian rock of Mormon Pop in sacrament meeting? 

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I personally am not a fan of It is Well with My Soul in the new options.

Nor am I. The thoughts are nice, but it feels revivalistic.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, if it is online and Reddit says it, it must be true. 😙

Bloggers are great sources of information. 

In disagreement with Bro. Rileyash's star system and evaluation, the hymn accurately represents our hopes for our children. Every line is about helping them to be more Christlike. ...having precious souls to save; listening and obeying the gospel; being generous and brave, innocent and loving like angels; with sweet voices, happy hearts and cheerful voices; seeking to be great and good and wise; beautiful and strong by keeping the Word of Wisdom [a signature LDS teaching]; being polite, respectful, temperate, affable, kind; prayerful and always striving to love the Lord with all their mind and might and to do His will.

Looks like the pro-Christ lines are the winners when compared to the WoW lines....8 to 5 by my 

 

 

 

 

8 to 5 by my criteria.

 

 

I think you might be being really liberal with your pro-Christ criteria. My atheist friend, who doesn’t believe in the existence of God or Christ, supports almost all of those lines for her own kids.  They wouldn’t be pro-Christ lyrics to her, they are just pro-being a good person (which all parents, regardless of their spiritual beliefs for their children).

We can see Him in the song because we know our doctrine. But for people who don’t (or aren’t used to having to dig to find Him) He would mostly be absent.

I want to clear that I have no problem with anybody who likes that song and sees it as being Christ centered. But I think the people who don’t find it Christ centered and instead find it to be pretty weird are being reasonable.

 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I don't know that many people agree with that.  Nephi's lament (where he calls himself a wretch) is a lot of people's favorite chapters in the whole Book of Mormon.  

We may not use “wretched” or “wretch” much in our language, perhaps because we want people to believe they are inherently worthwhile as a child of God, but a whole lot of members in my experience feel wretched, very wretched and the scriptures and hymns that assure us that even the wretched can be saved by Christ can help them feel less wretched.

I do not see how this is the least bit of a bad thing.  If we ignore those who feel wretched in hopes that people won’t see themself that way, but instead that makes them feel more hopeless because they see themselves as different, too far gone, or too hard hearted or too lazy or whatever self perception they have so the more positive stuff just doesn’t resonate with them, I don’t see that as wisdom.

I think church leadership is getting better at addressing a variety of needs, I don’t see this as dumbing down doctrine or policy or trying to be more Protestant or acceptable to the mainstream.  That doesn’t make sense even to me because there are a lot more peculiar ideas we could be removing if that was our intent rather than simply adding in a beautiful song that many of our members resonate with in their own LDS way.

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I'm sad that this board has devolved into mostly Saint vs Saint discussions. That makes me cranky. 

Let’s be the exception and make friends. I’ll be nicer. 

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

me, Amazing Grace is too imbedded in the American Protestant tradition and religious pop culture.

Which is the second reason I love that we added it- we spent so much time separating ourselves and setting ourselves apart but it’s nice to join in commonality for once, imo

 

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Speaking of Kolob, does this hymn meet the litmus test?

I find the people either love it or hate it. I wasn’t crazy about it but I sang a version of it once and the arrangement was lovely. I’m cool with you loving it, it’s not my favorite, but it’s fine. 
 

My favorite is Be Still My Soul.  It sounds to me like a chant- my dad whom you know used to take me to st marks to hear the Complain Sunday nights.  Sweet memories and fond feelings for the men in robes singing - 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are a number of reasons (other than doctrinal) why a bishop may not approve of a performance in sacrament meetings. Anything doctrinal about not wanting to have a youthful Praise Band perform Christian rock of Mormon Pop in sacrament meeting? 

Nor am I. The thoughts are beautiful, but it feels revivalistic.

Yeah, I’d assume that the reason for not having that type of a band is doctrinally based and not based on the personal preferences of the Bishop.

But maybe some people disagree with that assessment. 

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Yeah, I’d assume that the reason for not having that type of a band is doctrinally based and not based on the personal preferences of the Bishop.

But maybe some people disagree with that assessment. 

I can’t imagine what doctrine would disallow popular style music.  I believe it’s more about a discomfort about anything that is outside the norm for LDS sacrament.  We are a very very solemn group.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I can’t imagine what doctrine would disallow popular style music.

There is no doctrinal reference provided for the ban.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/callings/music/music-in-church-meetings/appropriate-music-for-church-meetings?lang=eng
 

Quote

Secular music should not replace sacred music in Sunday meetings.  Some religiously oriented music presented in a popular style is not appropriate for sacrament meetings. Also, much sacred music that is suitable for concerts and recitals is not appropriate for a Latter-day Saint worship service.

Music in Church meetings should not draw attention to itself or be for demonstration. This music is for worship, not performance.

Organs and pianos, or their electronic equivalents, are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting. Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion, are not appropriate for sacrament meeting.

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I can’t imagine what doctrine would disallow popular style music.  I believe it’s more about a discomfort about anything that is outside the norm for LDS sacrament.  We are a very very solemn group.

Sacrament meeting is not a concert venue. The music should be reverent. I remember David and Donna Dalton, BYU music professors. They had a program where she sang sacred hymns to pop style music. Their point was that hymns, no matter how great the text, are best when sung to great music. 

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Let’s be the exception and make friends. I’ll be nicer. 

Which is the second reason I love that we added it- we spent so much time separating ourselves and setting ourselves apart but it’s nice to join in commonality for once, imo

Peace pipe smoking is not against the Word of Wisdom. Seems like joining only works in one direction, though. I’m not aware of any church that borrows our hymns or doctrines. 

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I find the people either love it or hate it. I wasn’t crazy about it but I sang a version of it once and the arrangement was lovely. I’m cool with you loving it, it’s not my favorite, but it’s fine. 

My favorite is Be Still My Soul.  It sounds to me like a chant- my dad whom you know used to take me to st marks to hear the Complain Sunday nights.  Sweet memories and fond feelings for the men in robes singing - 

I don’t love Hie to Kolob. The text is odd and archaic to me. It would raise eyebrows if a visitor paid attention to the words. For some it is a favorite, but not until it was set to much better music.

Be Still My Soul is precisely what I am talking about. The masterful tune was borrowed from the orchestral tone poem Finlandia by Jean Sibelius, which goes a very long way to make the hymn so appealing.  

Men in robes singing….maybe we should get the Priesthood leaders some outfits and voice lessons. Or have professional music ministers as a new calling. 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m not aware of any church that borrows our hymns or doctrines. 

I have heard of some starting family home evening programs.  
 

Greg Olsen was the number one Christian artist in Canada back in 2001.   I have seen other LDS artists in the Christian art market.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Men in robes singing….maybe we should get the Priesthood leaders some outfits and voice lessons. Or have professional music ministers as a new calling. 

Is this a joke or meant to be sarcastic?  With some of your other comments that read as condemning, I can’t tell.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

We may not use “wretched” or “wretch” much in our language, perhaps because we want people to believe they are inherently worthwhile as a child of God, but a whole lot of members in my experience feel wretched, very wretched and the scriptures and hymns that assure us that even the wretched can be saved by Christ can help them feel less wretched.

I do not see how this is the least bit of a bad thing.  If we ignore those who feel wretched in hopes that people won’t see themself that way, but instead that makes them feel more hopeless because they see themselves as different, too far gone, or too hard hearted or too lazy or whatever self perception they have so the more positive stuff just doesn’t resonate with them, I don’t see that as wisdom.

I think church leadership is getting better at addressing a variety of needs, I don’t see this as dumbing down doctrine or policy or trying to be more Protestant or acceptable to the mainstream.  That doesn’t make sense even to me because there are a lot more peculiar ideas we could be removing if that was our intent rather than simply adding in a beautiful song that many of our members resonate with in their own LDS way…..

I have heard of some starting family home evening programs.

I’m in. Instead of Latter-day Saints, we are now Latter-day Wretches.

All kidding aside, I don’t see how adopting a n apparentCalvinist notion can be of any use to the Church. There are plenty of BoM scriptures and General Conference talks that address this issue directly and effectively. Every Conference includes several, and some have been powerful.

do you have any examples of such programs? Have they borrowed any do trines, or just practices?

Edited September 17, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is this a joke or meant to be sarcastic?  With some of your other comments that read as condemning, I can’t tell.

A joke, of course. But the thought is intriguing. 

Condemning?

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yeah, I’d assume that the reason for not having that type of a band is doctrinally based and not based on the personal preferences of the Bishop.

But maybe some people disagree with that assessment. 

Depends on how one views the Handbook of Instructions. 🙂 Practice based on doctrine?
There is room for such music in the Church, but sacrament meeting is not the place. The meeting is not for concertizing.

I once performed in the orchestra for a Mozart mass in a Korean Protestant church. Before the performance, their Praise Band did its thing. It was loud, but not good. Grim is a word that comes to mind. The contrast between Mozart’s sacred music and the Christian pop couldn’t have been greater. Most of the congregation sat in silence looking at the floor. The band would have been good for a talent show, though.

If it’s done, it needs to be done by competent musicians. Lots of Evangelical churches have professional or semiprofessional musicians in their employ. I don’t see that ever happening in our church, but nowadays nothing surprises me. 

Edited September 17, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think you might be being really liberal with your pro-Christ criteria. My atheist friend, who doesn’t believe in the existence of God or Christ, supports almost all of those lines for her own kids.  They wouldn’t be pro-Christ lyrics to her, they are just pro-being a good person (which all parents, regardless of their spiritual beliefs for their children).

We can see Him in the song because we know our doctrine. But for people who don’t (or aren’t used to having to dig to find Him) He would mostly be absent.

I want to clear that I have no problem with anybody who likes that song and sees it as being Christ centered. But I think the people who don’t find it Christ centered and instead find it to be pretty weird are being reasonable.

Yes, but being sung in the context of an LDS church service and invoking the name of deity clearly indicate its religious nature. I believe it is pro-Christ because it articulates what we must teach our children in order to save their “precious souls.” That is made explicit in the text….

”…that they may love Him and may learn to do His will.”

Would you please explain why it is not Christ-centered and “pretty weird?” Is it just the WoW verse that gives heartburn, or is there something more?

Do you think non-LDS would understand “Hie to Kolob,” or would they think it is pretty weird? Is it pro-Christ? What would your atheist friend think about it?

Edited September 17, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Condemning?

Negative is probably a more accurate term.  You did not sound happy about some of the changes.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m in. Instead of Latter-day Saints, we are now Latter-day Wretches.

All kidding aside, I don’t see how adopting a n apparentCalvinist notion can be of any use to the Church. There are plenty of BoM scriptures and General Conference talks that address this issue directly and effectively. Every Conference includes several, and some have been powerful.

do you have any examples of such programs? Have they borrowed any do trines, or just practices?

I am not saying it is of use to the Church.  I am saying it resonates with some of the Church’s members who do not resonate with other methods.

Since the Church insists on all hymns teaching correct doctrine, apparently the leadership does not believe it is adopting an apparent Calvinist notion, but rather teaching a correct principle.  Given they had masses of hymns to choose from, I don’t see them adopting a hymn that taught false doctrine just because it was popular.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

do you have any examples of such programs? Have they borrowed any do trines, or just practices?

As far as I know (it was eons ago, I will google, but no promises), they just borrowed the practice of FHE.

[JAHS]

On 9/12/2024 at 7:41 AM, Nofear said:

Church will be rolling them out in chunks for a bit.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/music/collections/hymns-for-home-and-church?lang=eng

Includes Amazing Grace with three verses (John Newton's version, not Chis Tomlin's).

Some of these songs might be hard for a congregation to sing if they have never heard of the, before.

I remember many years ago during the Sunday School hour during opening exercises they would have a practice song session where the chorister would teach the congregation a new song. Yes I am that old.

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I can’t imagine what doctrine would disallow popular style music.  I believe it’s more about a discomfort about anything that is outside the norm for LDS sacrament.  We are a very very solemn group.

I should have defined what I meant by "doctrine" because I'm probably using it more loosely than we normally do.  I was using the word to mean "a set of beliefs held and taught by a church". 

It's the church's belief that sacrament meeting is sacred and so the music that is played during that meeting is set to a different standard than the music played in other venues.  The church doesn't allow drums, for example, because of a belief that they are too loud and so not worshipful enough in that specific setting.

(I also wouldn't be surprised if some of this isn't due to the fact that multiple wards often use the building at the same time, and if Ward one has people on the stand playing the tuba and snare drum, that might make it a little hard for the sunday school in Ward two to hear what anyone is saying.  ).

I don't think we are that solemn outside of sacrament meeting.  We clearly embrace Christian pop music with gusto (EFY and Hilary Weeks songs really don't sound much different than what the Christian station plays on the radio, and they also use guitars and drums in many).  We've had celebrations in different countries with the prophet and apostles present that have really doubled down on the exuberant praise choir and even drums (like the Be One event that had African dancing and gospel music). 

But I agree that we are very solemn in sacrament meeting.

 

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Do you think non-LDS would understand “Hie to Kolob,” or would they think it is pretty weird? Is it pro-Christ? What would your atheist friend think about it?

It's definitely weird and I don't think it should be sung in sacrament meeting either because a visitor would have no idea what it's talking about (and what the heck does "there is no end to race" mean??). 

It's one of my favorite hymns but I can recognize when something is less useful in certain circumstances.

[bluebell]

42 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Some of these songs might be hard for a congregation to sing if they have never heard of the, before.

I remember many years ago during the Sunday School hour during opening exercises they would have a practice song session where the chorister would teach the congregation a new song. Yes I am that old.

I remember that. It didn't last long but it was kind of fun.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

there is no end to race

I always assumed it meant the human race, meaning no end to mankind, meaning we will all live for eternity.

But would love to know if there is an official explanation anyway.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I remember that. It didn't last long but it was kind of fun.

He may have meant back when Sunday School was in the morning and Sacrament Meeting in the afternoon.  I don’t think you are that old.  I am though.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Probably not an exemplary reaction to a bishop's rightful direction.

 

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m in. Instead of Latter-day Saints, we are now Latter-day Wretches.

All kidding aside, I don’t see how adopting a n apparentCalvinist notion can be of any use to the Church. 

So Bluebell’s reaction disagreeing with the bishop’s decision is “not an exemplary reaction” in your opinion.

What does that make your apparent disagreement with the First Presidency “rightful direction” on using the Calvinistic—in your view, but not apparently the First Presidency—Amazing Grace now in our Sacrament Meetings?