A new batch of new hymns

[Snarkclaw]

On 9/14/2024 at 11:17 AM, MustardSeed said:

It wasn’t that long ago the amazing Grace was actually **not** permitted by local authorities. 

On 9/14/2024 at 11:25 AM, bluebell said:

I had a bishop that forbid a sister from singing it as a musical number in sacrament meeting.  She did anyway and he kept going on about how it ruined the spirit of the meeting.  He was a really wonderful man but I think his attitude was typical on how a lot of members viewed Amazing Grace.

I'm so glad it's in our hymnal now!

I clearly am missing something.  What about Amazing Grace is (or was) controversial?

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Snarkclaw said:

I clearly am missing something.  What about Amazing Grace is (or was) controversial?

Honestly, I don’t think there was ever an official reason. Some have claimed it was due to it referring to God’s children as “wretched”. But I think it comes from the underground motive of separating ourselves from the Protestants. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Honestly, I don’t think there was ever an official reason. Some have claimed it was due to it referring to God’s children as “wretched”. But I think it comes from the underground motive of separating ourselves from the Protestants. 

I was told it taught cheap grace (you are immediately saved if you only believe/confess Christ, no repentance required, I am guessing perhaps from “the hour I first believed”, but could be just the fact only Grace is spoken of)…it doesn’t, though one could insert that interpretation of it if one wanted.

It appears it was seen as doctrinally correct by 2012:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2012/04/amazing-grace?lang=eng

Interesting…this was first published in the New Era and then a year later in the Ensign:

Last paragraph…

Quote

God’s grace is sufficient. Jesus’s grace is sufficient. It is enough. It is all we need. Don’t quit. Keep trying. Don’t look for escapes and excuses. Look for the Lord and His perfect strength. Don’t search for someone to blame. Search for someone to help you. Seek Christ, and, as you do, you will feel the enabling power and divine help we call His amazing grace.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2012/08/his-grace-is-sufficient?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2013/09/his-grace-is-sufficient?lang=eng

Not seeing it mentioned in the 70s and 80s, but one reference to it in the 90s:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1996/06/mormon-journal/humming-our-testimonies?lang=eng

Nothing the next decade, but then it’s everywhere, lol.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/christmas-devotional/2013/12/jesus-the-christ-our-prince-of-peace?lang=eng

And solid official acceptance…

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2010/10/let-there-be-light?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2019/02/the-miracle-of-covenant-belonging?lang=eng

 

Edited September 15, 2024 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I said “we,”not “you”. There are a number of things they did that may seem odd to us if we do not understand their intentions. In this case, the Church was trying to lift up the importance of  Word of Wisdom revelation by concentrating efforts on children because efforts with adults failed. 

 

But you replied directly to me, and that’s not the conversation I was having with Smac.  Looks like rather than responding to me you were actually starting an entirely different conversation.  I can accept that as such. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/12/2024 at 12:02 PM, Tacenda said:

Well, I did say on here that if they put this song in the songbook I would go back to church, so hmmm.

Good to know, I love that two great songs that were left out formerly are on the docket or in the songbook already. It will be cool, I'm assuming the Tabernacle Choir will sing it during general conferences. 

Welcome back. See you in church Sunday. 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

But you replied directly to me, and that’s not the conversation I was having with Smac.  Looks like rather than responding to me you were actually starting an entirely different conversation.  I can accept that as such. 

Ok. So let’s discuss what you meant by your comment. It appeared to me that you were ridiculing the old hymn “In Our Lovely Deseret.” It got a laugh. Why are talking about hymns, I believe. 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/12/2024 at 10:41 AM, Nofear said:

Church will be rolling them out in chunks for a bit.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/music/collections/hymns-for-home-and-church?lang=eng

Includes Amazing Grace with three verses (John Newton's version, not Chis Tomlin's).

Not my cup of sagebrush tea, but some folks like it. With that and some of the other added  hymns it seems like we are leaning more and more in the Protestant hymn direction. Why not “Ave Maria”? It’s beautiful. Or “‘Tis the Gift to Be Simple”?Do think we will add praise bands?

Edited September 16, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ok. So let’s discuss what you meant by your comment. It appeared to me that you were ridiculing the old hymn “In Our Lovely Deseret.” It got a laugh. Why are talking about hymns, I believe. 

She used that hymn as an example of why some people might not realize our views about Christ.  In the past we were not as Christ-centered as we are now with our topics and hymns.  Just because it fit in with the culture of the time doesn't take away from the fact that it's less Christ focused than most of our songs are now.  

She got a laugh because most members recognize that it's weird.   

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/13/2024 at 2:45 AM, Dario_M said:

Vaughan Williams was not from the US nor was he from the LDS church though. What has he to do with any hymns? 

Many of our hymns are borrowed from Protestant hymnody; however, almost all of our sacrament hymns are from LDS composers and lyricists. I’m glad some of the new hymns are written by Saints.

 No one sang “Hie to Kolob” until it was set to Vaughan-Williams’ gorgeous melody. He didn’t write the hymn…we borrowed his melody. The text is opaque from a non-member’s position. Also, it needs to loose the unfortunate reference to race which can be easily misunderstood.

There is no end to matter

There is no end to space.

There is no end to spirit.

There is no end to race.

Maybe “There is no end to grace”?

it would also be great to end on an E major chord instead of e minor  that’s called a “Picardy Third” which makes a more optimistic ending.

A good hymn is the result of blending of beautiful melody and thoughtful text. 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/14/2024 at 12:25 PM, bluebell said:

I had a bishop that forbid a sister from singing it as a musical number in sacrament meeting.  She did anyway and he kept going on about how it ruined the spirit of the meeting.  He was a really wonderful man but I think his attitude was typical on how a lot of members viewed Amazing Grace.

I'm so glad it's in our hymnal now!

…but he was the bishop, whose calling and responsibility are to approve all elements of the sacrament meeting. 

 

[MustardSeed]

55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ok. So let’s discuss what you meant by your comment. It appeared to me that you were ridiculing the old hymn “In Our Lovely Deseret.” It got a laugh. Why are talking about hymns, I believe. 

Oh, so you “were” talking to me . Ok.
 
Smac had  listed all the new hymns which reference Jesus Christ, and he scoffed at the idea that others think we are not Christian. 
 

If the hymns were the litmus test of whether we are Christians or not, as Smac was suggesting, “then let’s look at Lovely Deseret, for example.” 
 

If an investigator were visiting in church and hoping to find a church that focused on Jesus Christ, I would personally hope that all of the hymns would reflect our knowledge and faith in the savior Jesus Christ. I personally would not choose Lovely Deseret as an opening or closing hymn as a representation of who I am as a Latter Day Saint.  Furthermore,  I understand that there are many members of the church who do smoke or drink or drink coffee, and I am more interested in all of us joining together in Sunday worship to focus on what we have in common through our faith in Jesus Christ. That is a personal preference and I recognize it is not shared.

The new increased emphasis on Jesus Christ in our religion is a welcome shift for me personally.  The new hymns accurately represent the focus of our belief in the Savior. Part of me wishes I was a teenager now.  
 

regarding the good people that wrote “In Our Lovely Deseret”- it was perfect. For that century. I think anybody who writes a song is fabulous.

Edited September 16, 2024 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

…but he was the bishop, whose calling and responsibility are to approve all elements of the sacrament meeting. 

 

And in my case, I complied.  What’s the issue here?

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

And in my case, I complied.  What’s the issue here?

I was responding to Bluebell...

Quote

I had a bishop that forbid a sister from singing it as a musical number in sacrament meeting.  She did anyway and he kept going on about how it ruined the spirit of the meeting.  He was a really wonderful man but I think his attitude was typical on how a lot of members viewed Amazing Grace.

Probably not an exemplary reaction to a bishop's rightful direction.

[MustardSeed]

55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not my cup of sagebrush tea, but some folks like it. With that and some of the other added  hymns it seems like we are leaning more and more in the Protestant hymn direction. Why not “Ave Maria”? It’s beautiful. Or “‘Tis the Gift to Be Simple”?Do think we will add praise bands?

You seem kind of cranky lately.  What’s up? 
I sang Amazing Grace with a bit of country flair (according to one guy) yesterday, and then piano solo’d and then I did violin in the last verse.  
The pianist wrote her own arrangement. It was one of the highlights of my church experience for the past five years.   I don’t know if anybody else liked it, but my husband cried.  So there is that.😅

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

…but he was the bishop, whose calling and responsibility are to approve all elements of the sacrament meeting. 

 

Very true. I don’t agree with the sister who decided to do what she wanted to do regardless of the instructions he gave her.

But, the basis for his decision was flawed and I think it’s good to talk about that.  This man, who I consider a very dear friend, passed away a couple years ago. I know the kind of man that he was and he would be right there next me saying “Yep messed up that one!”

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

You seem kind of cranky lately.  What’s up? 
I sang Amazing Grace with a bit of country flair (according to one guy) yesterday, and then piano solo’d and then I did violin in the last verse.  
The pianist wrote her own arrangement. It was one of the highlights of my church experience for the past five years.   I don’t know if anybody else liked it, but my husband cried.  So there is that.😅

I'm sad that this board has devolved into mostly Saint vs Saint discussions. That makes me cranky. 

I can never sing "Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses" without shifting into the mountain twang of "Life is Like a Mountain Railway" (a tune we borrowed for our hymn). This and many other Southern country hymns could be a great addition to our collection! Why not? 🙂 

I'm glad you had a good experience. For me, Amazing Grace is too imbedded in the American Protestant tradition and religious pop culture. There are others I would prefer, but music taste is such an extraordinarily subjective thing. Why are there no hymns by the sacred composers of the past...Palestrina, Bach, Brahms, Bruckner, the Catholic mass? It's a mystery to me.

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Oh, so you “were” talking to me . Ok.
 
Smac had  listed all the new hymns which reference Jesus Christ, and he scoffed at the idea that others think we are not Christian. 
 

If the hymns were the litmus test of whether we are Christians or not, as Smac was suggesting, “then let’s look at Lovely Deseret, for example.” 

If an investigator were visiting in church and hoping to find a church that focused on Jesus Christ, I would personally hope that all of the hymns would reflect our knowledge and faith in the savior Jesus Christ. I personally would not choose Lovely Deseret as an opening or closing hymn as a representation of who I am as a Latter Day Saint.  Furthermore,  I understand that there are many members of the church who do smoke or drink or drink coffee, and I am more interested in all of us joining together in Sunday worship to focus on what we have in common through our faith in Jesus Christ. That is a personal preference and I recognize it is not shared.

The new increased emphasis on Jesus Christ in our religion is a welcome shift for me personally.  The new hymns accurately represent the focus of our belief in the Savior. Part of me wishes I was a teenager now. regarding the good people that wrote “In Our Lovely Deseret”- it was perfect. For that century. I think anybody who writes a song is fabulous.

Talking with, but using the inclusive "we" because that is what I meant. I think the vast majority of our hymns accurately represent the focus of our belief in the Savior.

Though not my favorite hymn because the music is mediocre, it seems to me that "In Our Lovely Deserted" (tune borrowed from a non-member) perfectly represents what we have in common as Saints and believers in Christ. It reflects our fundamental concern of raising righteous children in Zion (Deseret). I think an investigator would be absolutely thrilled to learn that we strive for these things.

Quote

...having precious souls to save; listening and obeying the gospel; being generous and brave, innocent and loving like angels; with sweet voices, happy hearts and cheerful voices; seeking to be great and good and wise; beautiful and strong by keeping the Word of Wisdom [a signature LDS teaching]; being polite, respectful, temperate, affable, kind; prayerful and always striving to love the Lord with all their mind and might and to do His will.

What's not to like? Perhaps set to better music it would be more satisfying, like "Hie to Kolob" was.

Speaking of Kolob, does this hymn meet the litmus test?

Quote

If you could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward with that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity, f ind out the generation

Where Gods began to be? or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend? or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end? methinks the Spirit whispers,

No man has found ‘pure space,’ nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place.

The works of God continue, and worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter,There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit There is no end to race.

 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Very true. I don’t agree with the sister who decided to do what she wanted to do regardless of the instructions he gave her.

But, the basis for his decision was flawed and I think it’s good to talk about that.  This man, who I consider a very dear friend, passed away a couple years ago. I know the kind of man that he was and he would be right there next me saying “Yep messed up that one!”

 

I don't agree that his decision was flawed. For me, Amazing Grace is too imbedded in the American Protestant tradition and religious pop culture and has become a cliche. There are others I would prefer, but music taste is so extraordinarily subjective.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/15/2024 at 12:48 PM, bluebell said:

Honestly, I don’t think there was ever an official reason. Some have claimed it was due to it referring to God’s children as “wretched”. But I think it comes from the underground motive of separating ourselves from the Protestants. 

Which is a very good thing, IMO. "Wretched" is not a word we LDS ever use to describe ourselves. Justifying it with Paul's lament and Nephi's psalm doesn't cut it for me. 

Perhaps wretched is a description of the fallen man. On the contrary, we are constantly reminded that we are children of God with divine destinies. Many recent conference talks address this.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

She used that hymn as an example of why some people might not realize our views about Christ.  In the past we were not as Christ-centered as we are now with our topics and hymns.  Just because it fit in with the culture of the time doesn't take away from the fact that it's less Christ focused than most of our songs are now.  

She got a laugh because most members recognize that it's weird.   

CFR that most members thought that.

I don't think it is weird at all for the reasons stated above. Nor do I agree we were not as Christ-centered then as we are now. "In Our Lovely Deseret" is totally Christ-centered. 

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don't agree that his decision was flawed. For me, Amazing Grace is too imbedded in the American Protestant tradition and religious pop culture and has become a cliche. There are others I would prefer, but music taste is such extraordinarily subjective.

But personal preference probably shouldn't be the measuring stick for what is allowed in sacrament meeting.  It's not the church of "Bishop So-and-so", after all.  Not letting someone sing a sing because the person in charge doesn't like it seems like an unreasonable reason to say no.

At least now it's in our hymnbook, and no one can ever say no about it again.  

(get what you mean about having personal preferences for songs though.  I really don't like "I Know that My Redeemer Lives" and "I Believe in Christ".  The doctrine is wonderful but the hymns go on forever and aren't great melody-wise.  But it would be really bad if I was able to keep people from singing them in Sacrament meeting).

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

CFR that most members thought that.

I don't think it is weird at all for the reasons stated above. Nor do I agree we were not as Christ-centered then as we are now. "In Our Lovely Deseret" is totally Christ-centered. 

You just have to search it online to see how a lot of members feel about it.  Reddit had a survey and it's survey was "What Hymn do you most dread singing and why is it In our Lovely Deseret?"

A blogger.com blog ranked the latter-day saint hymns from worst to best and out of a total of 338, In our Lovely Deseret came in at #331.  He's not the final say by any means, but his blog basically matched what the consensus of the song that you can find online.  

https://rileyashimself.blogspot.com/2018/11/ranking-all-341-latter-day-saint-hymns.html

Here is the criteria he used for the rankings:

Quote

 

There are ten major principles that divide the “Be Still My Soul”s from the “In Our Lovely Deseret”s. You might even call them the 10 Hymnandments (I hope you audibly groaned at that truly atrocious pun):

Hymns should be a form of worship.

Hymns should be doctrinally accurate.

Hymns should make you feel something.

Hymns should be interesting and instructive.

Hymns should be easy to understand, even for newcomers and visitors.

Hymns should be universally (or near universally) applicable for a diverse, global, church.

Hymns’ lyrics and melodies should be symbiotic in both tone and meter.

Hymns should not make us look like a cult, especially not a cult that celebrates bad things happening to those who don’t agree with us.

Hymns should be appropriate for Sacrament Meeting (the place where they are most frequently sung and learned).

Hymns should rhyme.

 

He ranked the hymns based on a star system of 1-5 stars.  For all 1 star hymns he said, in general:

Quote

 

One Star

These 47 songs represent the worst the hymnbook has to offer. Some are offensive, others are exclusive. A few misrepresent us, a couple put us to sleep. Many are confusing to newcomers, and a handful even contain false doctrine. Fortunately, the Church has a longstanding tradition of editing the tunes and lyrics of its hymns to better suit the needs of its members. Perhaps a few of these could be saved with some inspired alterations. Others we might just need to forget about.

 

For the song In Our Lovely Deseret specifically, he gave it one star because:

Quote

No song makes us sound so much like a brainwashing cult as “In Our Lovely Deseret”. Let’s bury this one deep, deep in archives of Granite Mountain, where no one will ever have to hear it again.

Christ isn't even mentioned in the song except twice where the lines say "For the Lord to keep them safe" and "They may love Him and may learn to do His will".  It has more lines about keeping the Word of Wisdom than it does about Christ.  I personally don't see that as being Christ-centered.  I think there's a good chance that this one will be removed from the hymnal when the new one comes out.

 

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But personal preference probably shouldn't be the measuring stick for what is allowed in sacrament meeting.  It's not the church of "Bishop So-and-so", after all.  Not letting someone sing a sing because the person in charge doesn't like it seems like an unreasonable reason to say no.

Whose preference should prevail, the singer's or the bishop's when planning a sacrament meeting?  Would asking a person not to sing "Ave Maria" or Gregorian chant be unreasonable. Some musical styles, instrumentations, and presentations would not be appropriate and the bishop would rightly ask them not to be used. That doesn't make him boss of the Church. 

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

At least now it's in our hymnbook, and no one can ever say no about it again.  

(get what you mean about having personal preferences for songs though.  I really don't like "I Know that My Redeemer Lives" and "I Believe in Christ".  The doctrine is wonderful but the hymns go on forever and aren't great melody-wise.  But it would be really bad if I was able to keep people from singing them in Sacrament meeting).

Yes, the hymnbook is not in our canon, and we don't have to like some of them. That reflects on our biases, not on our spirituality, IMO, but it does not exempt some of the new additions. 

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Which is a very good thing.

 

I don't know that many people agree with that.  Nephi's lament (where he calls himself a wretch) is a lot of people's favorite chapters in the whole Book of Mormon.  

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Whose preference should prevail, the singer's or the bishop's when planning a sacrament meeting?  Would asking a person not to sing "Ave Maria" or Gregorian chant be unreasonable. Some musical styles, instrumentations, and presentations would not be appropriate and the bishop would rightly ask them not to be used. That doesn't make him boss of the Church. 

Deciding on what is allowed to be sung in sacrament meeting shouldn't be based on anyone's personal preference at all.  A bishop should have a doctrinal reason for not approving something.

I think that my old bishop believed that he did (and I'm pretty sure he was following the prevailing sentiments of the times), but our current leadership has essentially declared that there is actually no doctrinal reason to bar Amazing Grace from sacrament meetings.

What else is there to say about it?

Quote

Yes, the hymnbook is not in our canon, and we don't have to like some of them. That reflects on our biases, not on our spirituality, IMO, but it does not exempt some of the new additions. 

We definitely don't have to like them all.  I think it only gets weird when someone gets upset or annoyed when another person doesn't like a song that they do.  I personally am not a fan of It is Well with My Soul in the new options.

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You just have to search it online to see how a lot of members feel about it.  Reddit had a survey and it's survey was "What Hymn do you most dread singing and why is it In our Lovely Deseret?"

Well, if it is online and Reddit says it, it must be true. 😙

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

A blogger.com blog ranked the latter-day saint hymns from worst to best and out of a total of 338, In our Lovely Deseret came in at #331.  He's not the final say by any means, but his blog basically matched what the consensus of the song that you can find online.  

https://rileyashimself.blogspot.com/2018/11/ranking-all-341-latter-day-saint-hymns.html

Bloggers are great sources of information. 

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Here is the criteria he used for the rankings:

He ranked the hymns based on a star system of 1-5 stars.  For all 1 star hymns he said, in general:

For the song In Our Lovely Deseret specifically, he gave it one star because:

Christ isn't even mentioned in the song except twice where the lines say "For the Lord to keep them safe" and "They may love Him and may learn to do His will".  It has more lines about keeping the Word of Wisdom than it does about Christ.  I personally don't see that as being Christ-centered.  I think there's a good chance that this one will be removed from the hymnal when the new one comes out.

 

In disagreement with Bro. Rileyash's star system and evaluation, the hymn accurately represents our hopes for our children. Every line is about helping them to be more Christlike. ...having precious souls to save; listening and obeying the gospel; being generous and brave, innocent and loving like angels; with sweet voices, happy hearts and cheerful voices; seeking to be great and good and wise; beautiful and strong by keeping the Word of Wisdom [a signature LDS teaching]; being polite, respectful, temperate, affable, kind; prayerful and always striving to love the Lord with all their mind and might and to do His will.

Looks like the pro-Christ lines are the winners when compared to the WoW lines....8 to 5 by my 

 

 

Quote

1. That the children may live long
2. And be beautiful and strong,
3. Tea and coffee and tobacco they despise,
4. Drink no liquor, and they eat
5. But a very little meat;
6. They are seeking to be great and good and wise.

8 to 5 by my criteria.

 

Quote

1. They have precious souls to save;
2. They must listen and obey the gospel’s sound.
3. They must not forget to pray,
4. Night and morning ev’ry day,
5. For the Lord to keep them safe from ev’ry ill,
6. And assist them to do right,
7. That with all their mind and might
8. They may love him and may learn to do his will.