Why Stripling "Warriors"?

[Bernard Gui]

Just something that sticks in my craw.

Why do we call them “stripling warriors”? Helaman refers to them as young men, men, sons, my little sons, sons of the people of Ammon, and soldiers. The word warrior only occurs twice in the Book of Mormon: once in an Isaiah quote and once in Alma 51:31 where it describes the strong and skilled men fighting with Teancum. Warriors are experienced and tested fighters. Helaman’s sons were young raw recruits having no experience and only a minimum of martial training. They certainly could not be called warriors until after they had been in battle.

Moreover, in Joseph Smith’s day “warrior” was the most common term used to describe Native American fighters. Joseph does not use that term when translating the stories about Helaman’s 2000 sons. Had he been making up the story as he went along, it would be more likely that he would have called them warriors. IMO this is evidence that he did not make it up. YMMD.

Any thoughts?

 

Edited August 27, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

Stripling warriors is easier to say than stripling soldiers…(as someone who stutter a lot as a kid and still mixes up soldier and shoulder).

You might want to change strippling to stripling in the title or if you let auto correct do it, stripping.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Calm

[Emily]

I hadn't really thought about the fact that the phrase "Stripling Warrior" doesn't actually show up in the Book of Mormon (and it now joins the list of trivia items for my, "What isn't in the scriptures?" game.)

You made me curious about why we started using that term. Very difficult time trying to research it using just the Internet, and I couldn't find a point in time where it wasn't being used then suddenly it was being used. It seems to go pretty far back.

I DID however find a source that might have created one of those cultural memories that would get people to start using the phrase though.

 

Jeff Lindsey brings it up in an article discussing the likelihood of plagiarism from a book called, The Late War Against the United States, 

https://www.arisefromthedust.com/parallels-for-2000-stripling-warriors/

He's not delving into the origin of the term,  but he mentions that the two words, "Stripling Warrior" are found together in this epic poem:

Jerusalem Delivered: An Heroic Poem, by Torquato Tasso, John Hoole, Samuel Johnson, 1764, vol. 1, p. 102.

http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=JIcHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA102&dq=stripling+warrior&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-PyDUooswYuMAs2ggfgC&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stripling warrior&f=false

I only read a little of the poem, which seems to be about a single warrior, rather than a troop. But maybe it was still a popular poem a 100 years later? In which case the phrase would come quickly to mind when one says, "Stripling" in the context of a soldier, in the same way, "Alice" can lead one to think, "In Wonderland."

Anyway, I'm not willing to spend the time figuring out how popular the poem was in 1830. But it's a possibility. 

 

 

 

[Emily]

I thought I would share this beautiful painting after I ran across several articles on the potential ages of the Stripling Soldiers. That they would have been mostly adolescents is a popular consensus. The assumption being any child 12 and up would have been eligible to take the oath 15 years before the wars. No wonder Helaman was so worried they would be killed.

https://scripturecentral.org/knowhy/how-old-were-the-stripling-warriors

 

[Emily]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Warriors are experienced and tested fighters. Helaman’s sons were young raw recruits having no experience and only a minimum of martial training. They certainly could not be called warriors until after they had been in battle.

"Warrior" in this case could simply denote a sign of respect for what they accomplished. We do tend to assign the word "warrior" when we think the person is fighting with the best of their strength for a cause -- not just for experienced fighters.

Of course it's also used sarcastically when someone is devoting a great deal of time on something we perceive as rather useless, a.k.a. road warriors, weekend warriors, etc. That's probably a pretty modern usage though.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Emily

[The Nehor]

Warrior generally has a negative connotation in society. Recently people have tried to make warriors into heroes again but societies function better with soldiers that serve for a time. Warriors are people who need a fight. It is their vocation. Soldiers don’t need a fight. They are just ready for one. Warriors historically (and continue to) cause problems for the societies they live in. They tend to stir up conflict.

Also a lot of the Nephite army would have been teenagers. This group was notable because it was exclusively made up of those on the younger end of the military age spectrum. Mormon seems to have included the story due to the uncanny survival rate and doesn’t dwell on how young they are. Helaman mentions it in the account.

[teddyaware]

19 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Just something that sticks in my craw.

Why do we call them “stripling warriors”? Helaman refers to them as young men, men, sons, my little sons, sons of the people of Ammon, and soldiers. The word warrior only occurs twice in the Book of Mormon: once in an Isaiah quote and once in Alma 51:31 where it describes the strong and skilled men fighting with Teancum. Warriors are experienced and tested fighters. Helaman’s sons were young raw recruits having no experience and only a minimum of martial training. They certainly could not be called warriors until after they had been in battle.

Moreover, in Joseph Smith’s day “warrior” was the most common term used to describe Native American fighters. Joseph does not use that term when translating the stories about Helaman’s 2000 sons. Had he been making up the story as he went along, it would be more likely that he would have called them warriors. IMO this is evidence that he did not make it up. YMMD.

Any thoughts?

 

A stripling is an older adolescent who’s on the verge of passing into adulthood. These Christian Lamanite young men fully earned the honorary right to be thought of as experienced, battle tested warriors due to the fact that they proved they were able to fight heroically and skillfully, in most heated battle, against real battle tested Lamanite warriors but were twice able to achieve nothing less than total miraculous victory against their more mature and experienced opponents. If a highly effective 18 year old boxer immerged on the fighting scene and was able to knockout the reigning heavyweight world champion, would it be just that he should be deprived the title of world champion due to his age?

19 But behold, my little band of two thousand and sixty fought most desperately; yea, they were firm before the Lamanites, and did administer death unto all those who opposed them.

20 And as the remainder of our army were about to give way before the Lamanites, behold, those two thousand and sixty were firm and undaunted.

21 Yea, and they did obey and observe to perform every word of command with exactness; yea, and even according to their faith it was done unto them; and I did remember the words which they said unto me that their mothers had taught them.

22 And now behold, it was these my sons, and those men who had been selected to convey the prisoners, to whom we owe this great victory; for it was they who did beat the Lamanites; therefore they were driven back to the city of Manti. (Alma 57)

 

Edited August 27, 2024 by teddyaware

[LoudmouthMormon]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Warrior generally has a negative connotation in society.

Maybe in your society, but not mine.  In my various mil family and cop family circles, there's an awful lot of reverence for the word, and those who feel called to the profession.   If you know anyone close to a professional soldier or a cop, you might want to run your opinion past them to see what they say.  Just a suggestion.

 

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Warriors are people who need a fight. It is their vocation. Soldiers don’t need a fight. They are just ready for one. Warriors historically (and continue to) cause problems for the societies they live in. They tend to stir up conflict.

Having a difficult time not saying something snarky and sarcastic and unhelpful.  This just strikes me as the height of unrighteous judgmentalism, I'm guessing based on ignorance.   Maybe this might be a helpful response:  You know any people who practice a warrior's mindset?  How well?  Maybe get to know a few before opining about them.

 

[bluebell]

Maybe someone has mentioned this, but for some reason they are called "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings, so I'm guessing that's why we so often refer to them that way today.

Who wrote the chapter headings?

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Warrior generally has a negative connotation in society. Recently people have tried to make warriors into heroes again but societies function better with soldiers that serve for a time. Warriors are people who need a fight. It is their vocation. Soldiers don’t need a fight. They are just ready for one. Warriors historically (and continue to) cause problems for the societies they live in. They tend to stir up conflict.

Also a lot of the Nephite army would have been teenagers. This group was notable because it was exclusively made up of those on the younger end of the military age spectrum. Mormon seems to have included the story due to the uncanny survival rate and doesn’t dwell on how young they are. Helaman mentions it in the account.

Mormon, being an impressive general for decades, seems to see a lot of value in different aspects of this specific conflict between the nephites and lamanites during this time.  Maybe it's because this era and war had really good records for him to delve into and other wars throughout their history didn't. Or maybe the nephite generals like Captain Moroni and Teancum were so impressive to him in their military strategy and spiritual beliefs that he felt they needed special mention.

Or maybe for some other reason.  Having grown up in a war-torn land and being surrounded by it his whole life, he is certainly in a position to know what it is like firsthand and utilize it for good.

Does Mormon never call them refer to them as stripling?  I've never paid attention.

[InCognitus]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Maybe someone has mentioned this, but for some reason they are called "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings, so I'm guessing that's why we so often refer to them that way today.

Who wrote the chapter headings?

Where did you find "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings?

It doesn't say "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings of my 1981 edition of the scriptures (that I could find), but it does say it in the chapter headings for Alma 53 in my 1921 edition of the Book of Mormon.   There's a facsimile of the 1921 edition online here:   https://bookofmormon.online/fax/1921/331 

And there is a really nice "History of the Scriptures" summary from the church website:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/about-the-scriptures/history?lang=eng

The chapter headings have had their problems, like in the 1981 version chapter heading for Alma 11, where it said "Nephite coinage set forth" (prior to the 2013 chapter heading changes), when the Book of Mormon text for Alma 11 never says anything about "coins".  (Now the chapter heading says "The Nephite monetary system is set forth")

Good find, by the way.  At least we know that the "stripling warriors" terminology goes back to at least 1921.

Edited August 27, 2024 by InCognitus

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/26/2024 at 3:50 PM, Emily said:

I hadn't really thought about the fact that the phrase "Stripling Warrior" doesn't actually show up in the Book of Mormon (and it now joins the list of trivia items for my, "What isn't in the scriptures?" game.)

You made me curious about why we started using that term. Very difficult time trying to research it using just the Internet, and I couldn't find a point in time where it wasn't being used then suddenly it was being used. It seems to go pretty far back.

I DID however find a source that might have created one of those cultural memories that would get people to start using the phrase though.

Jeff Lindsey brings it up in an article discussing the likelihood of plagiarism from a book called, The Late War Against the United States, 

https://www.arisefromthedust.com/parallels-for-2000-stripling-warriors/

He's not delving into the origin of the term,  but he mentions that the two words, "Stripling Warrior" are found together in this epic poem:

Jerusalem Delivered: An Heroic Poem, by Torquato Tasso, John Hoole, Samuel Johnson, 1764, vol. 1, p. 102.

http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=JIcHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA102&dq=stripling+warrior&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-PyDUooswYuMAs2ggfgC&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stripling warrior&f=false

I only read a little of the poem, which seems to be about a single warrior, rather than a troop. But maybe it was still a popular poem a 100 years later? In which case the phrase would come quickly to mind when one says, "Stripling" in the context of a soldier, in the same way, "Alice" can lead one to think, "In Wonderland."

Anyway, I'm not willing to spend the time figuring out how popular the poem was in 1830. But it's a possibility. 

"Warrior" in this case could simply denote a sign of respect for what they accomplished. We do tend to assign the word "warrior" when we think the person is fighting with the best of their strength for a cause -- not just for experienced fighters.

Of course it's also used sarcastically when someone is devoting a great deal of time on something we perceive as rather useless, a.k.a. road warriors, weekend warriors, etc. That's probably a pretty modern usage though.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. Stripling is not a word one often hears outside of LDS circles. It does appear once in the Bible and sometimes in literature. In my opinion, little details like this are important when talking about the provenance of the BoM. I also find it interesting that almost none of the words commonly associated with Native Americans 18th and 19th  century literature appear in the BoM…such as tepee, tomahawk, feather, bison, beaver, deer, moose, fur, tobacco, powwow, bead, medicine, wampum, corn, taking coup, squaw, war songs and dances, canoe, chief, chanting, drums, and many more. It seems reasonable to assume Joseph would have used them if he were making it up out of his imaginatbased on what was commonly known at the time.  

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Maybe someone has mentioned this, but for some reason they are called "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings, so I'm guessing that's why we so often refer to them that way today.

Who wrote the chapter headings?

Not in today’s edition, but it is used once in my old Triple Combination. 

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

A stripling is an older adolescent who’s on the verge of passing into adulthood. These Christian Lamanite young men fully earned the honorary right to be thought of as experienced, battle tested warriors due to the fact that they proved they were able to fight heroically and skillfully, in most heated battle, against real battle tested Lamanite warriors but were twice able to achieve nothing less than total miraculous victory against their more mature and experienced opponents. If a highly effective 18 year old boxer immerged on the fighting scene and was able to knockout the reigning heavyweight world champion, would it be just that he should be deprived the title of world champion due to his age?

19 But behold, my little band of two thousand and sixty fought most desperately; yea, they were firm before the Lamanites, and did administer death unto all those who opposed them.

20 And as the remainder of our army were about to give way before the Lamanites, behold, those two thousand and sixty were firm and undaunted.

21 Yea, and they did obey and observe to perform every word of command with exactness; yea, and even according to their faith it was done unto them; and I did remember the words which they said unto me that their mothers had taught them.

22 And now behold, it was these my sons, and those men who had been selected to convey the prisoners, to whom we owe this great victory; for it was they who did beat the Lamanites; therefore they were driven back to the city of Manti. (Alma 57)

 

Yes, I’m aware of what stripling means. Thanks for essentially repeating my post, but they are never called warriors in the BoM in despite their successes in battle. Were it to have come from Joseph’s imagination, it’s reasonable to assume he would have used warriors instead of soldiers, as that was the most commonly used word for Native American fighters in his era.

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Warrior generally has a negative connotation in society. Recently people have tried to make warriors into heroes again but societies function better with soldiers that serve for a time. Warriors are people who need a fight. It is their vocation. Soldiers don’t need a fight. They are just ready for one. Warriors historically (and continue to) cause problems for the societies they live in. They tend to stir up conflict.

Also a lot of the Nephite army would have been teenagers. This group was notable because it was exclusively made up of those on the younger end of the military age spectrum. Mormon seems to have included the story due to the uncanny survival rate and doesn’t dwell on how young they are. Helaman mentions it in the account.

Nah. Always so helpful. 🥱

Edited August 27, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

20 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Where did you find "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings?

It doesn't say "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings of my 1981 edition of the scriptures (that I could find), but it does say it in the chapter headings for Alma 53 in my 1921 edition of the Book of Mormon.   There's a facsimile of the 1921 edition online here:   https://bookofmormon.online/fax/1921/331 

And there is a really nice "History of the Scriptures" summary from the church website:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/about-the-scriptures/history?lang=eng

The chapter headings have had their problems, like in the 1981 version chapter heading for Alma 11, where it said "Nephite coinage set forth" (prior to the 2013 chapter heading changes), when the Book of Mormon text for Alma 11 never says anything about "coins".  (Now the chapter heading says "The Nephite monetary system is set forth")

Good find, by the way.  At least we know that the "stripling warriors" terminology goes back to at least 1921.

Yes, warriors was used in earlier editions, but not currently. It seems a tiny detail, but someone thought it was important to correct the error. 

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Where did you find "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings?

It doesn't say "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings of my 1981 edition of the scriptures (that I could find), but it does say it in the chapter headings for Alma 53 in my 1921 edition of the Book of Mormon.   There's a facsimile of the 1921 edition online here:   https://bookofmormon.online/fax/1921/331 

And there is a really nice "History of the Scriptures" summary from the church website:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/about-the-scriptures/history?lang=eng

The chapter headings have had their problems, like in the 1981 version chapter heading for Alma 11, where it said "Nephite coinage set forth" (prior to the 2013 chapter heading changes), when the Book of Mormon text for Alma 11 never says anything about "coins".  (Now the chapter heading says "The Nephite monetary system is set forth")

Good find, by the way.  At least we know that the "stripling warriors" terminology goes back to at least 1921.

So now we just have to figure out who wrote the chapter headings for the 1921 edition. 

(is that the first edition that had chapter headings?)

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Were it to have come from Joseph’s imagination, it’s reasonable to assume he would have used warriors instead of soldiers, as that was the most commonly used word for Native American fighters in his era.

The Book of Mormon has a small vocabulary set, “soldier” is probably a more useful word than “warrior” as it signifies they were in an army.  “Warrior” does not require an organized unit, it can even be an individual.

[Calm]

The 1920 edition, the Apostles’ Revision, is the first with the headings.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/about-the-scriptures/history?lang=eng#title19

Quote

The 1920 edition of the Book of Mormon (actually printed in 1921) was produced by a committee of Apostles, including Elders George F. Richards, Anthony W. Ivins, Joseph Fielding Smith, James E. Talmage, and Melvin J. Ballard. They made grammatical adjustments, standardized the titles of the books of Nephi to remove ambiguity, and put the text in a double-column format to match the presentation of the Bible. They also created chapter summaries for every chapter, included a guide for pronouncing names in the Book of Mormon, added a table of contents, and revised the footnotes and the index.

Let’s blame it on Joseph Fielding Smith.  😛 

Edited August 27, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

According to a search of Google books “stripling warrior” shows up first in the 1920 edition of the Book of Mormon when coupled with “Mormon”.

 

Edited August 27, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

The 1920 edition, the Apostles’ Revision, is the first with the headings.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/about-the-scriptures/history?lang=eng#title19

Let’s blame it on Joseph Fielding Smith.  😛 

Whoever it was, it must have really caught on at the time!

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

According to a search of Google books “stripling warrior” shows up first in the 1920 edition of the Book of Mormon when coupled with “Mormon”.

 

 

53 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Where did you find "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings?

It doesn't say "stripling warriors" in the chapter headings of my 1981 edition of the scriptures (that I could find), but it does say it in the chapter headings for Alma 53 in my 1921 edition of the Book of Mormon.   There's a facsimile of the 1921 edition online here:   https://bookofmormon.online/fax/1921/331 

And there is a really nice "History of the Scriptures" summary from the church website:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/about-the-scriptures/history?lang=eng

The chapter headings have had their problems, like in the 1981 version chapter heading for Alma 11, where it said "Nephite coinage set forth" (prior to the 2013 chapter heading changes), when the Book of Mormon text for Alma 11 never says anything about "coins".  (Now the chapter heading says "The Nephite monetary system is set forth")

Good find, by the way.  At least we know that the "stripling warriors" terminology goes back to at least 1921.

Interestingly, the phrase is still present in a couple entries in the Guide to the Scriptures and the BOM Index.  In the Guide to the Scriptures entry on the Anti-Nephi-Lehies, it says in part "Their sons prepared for war and chose Helaman as their leader, Alma 53:16–19; 56–58 (these sons were also known as the 2,000 stripling warriors)."

They are also mentioned by that name under "doubt" and "faith" in the Book of Mormon Index.

Edited August 27, 2024 by bluebell

[InCognitus]

27 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So now we just have to figure out who wrote the chapter headings for the 1921 edition. 

(is that the first edition that had chapter headings?)

Apparently there was also a 1920 Salt Lake City edition that has the same chapter headings, and that appears to be the first edition that has them.  This site has a good way to compare:   https://bookofmormon.online/fax

As for who wrote them (in 1920-1921), the "History of the Scriptures" link that I referenced my last post says the following about the 1921 edition: 

• In 1902, James E. Talmage, under the direction of the First Presidency, revised the Pearl of Great Price, removing some content that was duplicated in the Doctrine and Covenants, dividing it into chapters and verses, and adding footnote references. In 1921, Elder Talmage, now an Apostle, continued to make improvements, adding an index and putting the text in the double-column format. After the 1920 and 1921 editions of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price were published, they were more frequently printed together in one volume, often referred to as the “triple combination.”

So it looks like maybe James E. Talmage wrote them, or at least was part of a committee that did it.

In the modern chapter headings, it calls them "stripling sons" (Alma 53, Alma 56) or "Ammonite striplings" (Alma 57), and Helaman (or Mormon the editor) refers to them as "stripling soldiers" (Alma 53:22) or "stripling Ammonites" (Alma 56:57).  

I suspect the term "warrior" in this case is applied by modern readers by the fact of them being called to war, and this seems to be how the phrase is used by William J. Hamblin in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article titled "Book of Mormon, History of Warfare in", where he says:  "On one occasion, the Nephite soldiers swore a solemn oath, covenanting to obey God's commandments and to fight valiantly for the cause of righteousness; casting their garments on the ground at the feet of their leader and inviting God to cast themselves likewise at the feet of their enemies if they should violate their oath (Alma 46:22; cf. 53:17). A purity code for warriors may be seen in the account of the stripling warriors of Helaman (Alma 56- 58)."

Edit to add:  I like Calm's explanation (above) about who wrote the chapter headings better.    I didn't see her post until I posted this.

Edited August 27, 2024 by InCognitus

[Calm]

If you go by conference talks, this is what you get

 

It looks like it wasn’t a popular story until the 80s.  Tanner referred to it once in the 60s, Burke Peterson once in the 70s, David O McKay first one to use it in 1911.  And then the flood begins…

[Calm]

Google books has it in two JFS books, Gospel Doctrine and one other, but it doesn’t look like it caught on until later, looks like the 80s for this as well.

Someone who has larger book databases needs to take a look to confirm though.

Edited August 27, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

Well, back to house cleaning…my 1 hour 15 minute break is now over.

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you go by conference talks, this is what you get

 

It looks like it wasn’t a popular story until the 80s.  Tanner referred to it once in the 60s, Burke Peterson once in the 70s, David O McKay first one to use it in 1911.  And then the flood begins…

I wonder if this increase in the use of the term and the popularity of the story has any connection to the growing popularity of "Saturday's Warriors"?  It looks like it was first produced by BYU in 1974 but was made into a movie in 1989.

Edited August 27, 2024 by bluebell

[teddyaware]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you go by conference talks, this is what you get

 

It looks like it wasn’t a popular story until the 80s.  Tanner referred to it once in the 60s, Burke Peterson once in the 70s, David O McKay first one to use it in 1911.  And then the flood begins…

I just found at least 10 General Conference talks from the 1970s that feature the stripling warriors by searching the church website using the lone search term “Ammonite.”  When I saw the word Ammonite coupled with the number 2,000 in the search results, I checked the contents further just to be sure.