Deseret News Article: What surprised a British journalist after spending time with Latter-day Saints

[smac97]

What surprised a British journalist after spending time with Latter-day Saints
8 discoveries in an in-depth profile about Latter-day Saints that challenged the stereotypes of a U.K. journalist and helped to ‘demystify’ the faith

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Nina-Sophia Miralles was on her way to a pedicure after work when she was stopped by a “fresh-faced youth” who introduced himself as “Elder” even though, she said, “he had less facial hair than my grandmother.”

This 30-something journalist was asked if she had “any time to talk about God” and whether she was “free on Sunday” and had “time to come to church.” But showing all the signs of someone heading to an appointment, she was happy to hear the missionary say, “Hey, you look busy, it’s OK if you need to go.”

“Off I went to the beauty salon,” she said, “amazed that there was no speech, no preach, no pressure.”

I am glad that this missionary was attentive and attuned to this person's need ("showing all the signs of someone heading to an appointment...").  

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This was the opening vignette in an in-depth article about Latter-day Saints featured last week in LONDNR, a media organization in Britain that believes the public is “ill-served” by gossip, fibs and “salacious” nonsense — promising instead to “tell wonderful stories” and “spark conversations” that help readers “escape the echo chamber that algorithms have strong-armed us into.”

The publication has a special interest in featuring “groups of people who actually do manage to find meaning and hope and community” in a world where, they say, “one of the greatest problems in the world is that there’s not enough meaning in people’s lives.”

Miralles founded the publication in 2015, and spoke to the Deseret News about her magazine’s approach and what stood out to her while writing this story. Following is a recap of eight different realizations that were “demystifying” to this journalist after spending more time with local Latter-day Saints in London.

This sounds like a promising media outlet.

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1. Simpler and less controversial lives than media outlets portray

Jonathan Mace, a lifelong member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who used to manage the Harold Pinter Theater in London, tells Miralles, “We’re a lot more boring than people expect.”

Hoping to persuade others that your people are “boring,” of course, is only appealing when the perception has gone so far in another direction. And Miralles reflects on the impact of cynical media portrayals of the faith implying rigidity (tradwives) and naivete. “I think the ‘Book of Mormon’ (musical) did a significant amount of damage,” she says.

This is an interesting observation.  The "othering" of the Latter-day Saints can do "a significant amount of damage."

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Despite being officially 134 years in the past, polygamy also remains a continuing misperception (which “erroneous allegations” Miralles says, if true, would make the faith “weirdly woke right now”).

Citing her own teenage exposure to “loads of documentaries about the fundamentalists,” she emphasized “just how little is known about the community” — with a number of friends and families telling her after hearing about her article, “Oh, like the ones who have loads of wives.”

“Nobody knew — nobody — not a single person knew that (polygamy) is actually not part of the church,” she said. “So there are a lot of misconceptions.”

Yet another result of "othering" the Latter-day Saints.

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When asked whether she minded being misunderstood, Latter-day Saint nurse Kenya Carroll describes feeling “less concerned about outside opinions” as she has become “more confident in myself and my relationship with God.”

“Just because something is very popular,” Mace adds, “doesn’t mean it’s right. And likewise, just because something is believed by a minority, doesn’t mean it’s wrong.”

Good points.

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2. A sincere love for Jesus Christ

When filling out surveys, Carroll describes often feeling forced to choose between “Christian” and “Latter-day Saint” — prompting her to remind this journalist about the full name of the church and that “we are followers of Jesus Christ.”

“That’s my definition of a Christian,” she says — with Mace adding that the church is trying to move away from the term “Mormon.”

“We’re just Christians. It’s a manifestation of Christianity, like Catholicism,” he says.

“I don’t have to be a member” Miralles says, “to see that everyone I have met — at this point, it’s been quite a number of people — has a lot of warmth, has a lot of compassion, is really trying to take care of themselves and their family.”

Spending time with members of the church, she says, was “a breath of fresh air” in a world of so much moral drift and cynicism. “They were a completely different kind of person … warm, kind, generous, compassionate and truly seeking to live by a moral framework that clearly meant the whole world for them.”

“It really made me feel, in a way, less alone, because there are people like this out there.”

Kudos to Miralles for actually letting the Latter-day Saints speak - through words and conduct - for themselves.

Observant Latter-day Saints tend to be "warm, kind, generous, compassionate and truly seeking to live by a moral framework."  This is, I think, why we so often hear critics and dissidents profess regard and affection for the Latter-day Saints.  The incongruity of these sentiments becomes rather obviously when these critics simultaneously disparage and actively speak and work against the community which defines the Latter-day Saints as such, and the doctrines which mold the very behaviors which tend to give rise to observant Latter-day Saints being warm, kind, etc.  

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3. A community welcoming of meaningful diversity

When Miralles attends Sunday service with a local London congregation in a “modest red brick,” she’s first “struck” by the diversity she witnessed. “I don’t think there’s a single ethnicity that isn’t represented.”

That’s quite a contrast to the AI rendering of a “stereotypical” Latter-day Saint missionary in her article, which the journalist suggests encapsulates the “biases associated with this diverse and open-minded community.”

“Why are we so judgmental about the Latter-day Saints?” the author asks — adding in our interview that people have an “almost snobbish view of religion.”

“It’s so easily dismissed,” she says, asking further, “Why are we desperate to stereotype certain groups in ways that nobody would ever be able to say about Muslims.”

Yep.

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“It’s actually funny, because I think you’re one of the most diverse religions ethnically,” she tells the Deseret News. “But that’s not known.”

Miralles adds her observation that the Church of Jesus Christ “does so much to expose members to, and teach them about, other belief systems” — quoting a visiting BYU student who talks about feeling “holy envy” when she visits a Sikh temple in West London, explaining that “witnessing their devotion to their God is inspiring.”

“All devotion is.”

Having spent two years as a missionary a country heavily influenced by Buddhism, Daoism and Confucianism (Taiwan), I came away with much more respect and appreciation for these faith traditions.  I think most missionaries have similar experiences.

As a father of six, this next section piqued my curiosity:

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4. Valuing big families and traditional marriage doesn’t require judging others harshly

Miralles asks two friends to share why Latter-day Saints get a “bad rep.”

“I guess it feels anti-feminist,” one says. “But I don’t know why. If they like big families, we should probably stop shaming them for it.”

Bigger families are “extremely uncommon here,” Miralles tells us. “To put it into perspective, I’m 31 and I’m the only woman I know who has had a child.”

The idea of having a larger family is “so unfamiliar that it immediately becomes suspicious,” she tells the Deseret News — leading some to assume women “must be forced to do it, or they must be brainwashed, because it’s so far away from the norm.”

Funny how "the norm" can be so different in so many ways.  I asked ChatGPT to create "a graph showing the average family size over the last 100 years in the United Kingdom."  The results:

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Another friend suggests the faith “feels so old-fashioned” and isn’t affirming of gay marriage. Acknowledging that the church is known for large families and “the sacred union between man and wife,” Miralles asks, “Can that be reconciled in today’s society?”

One Latter-day Saint points out that Jesus “never shunned anybody and he spent his time around people who had chosen alternative lifestyles.”

“Just because I’m religious doesn’t mean I’m better than anyone or holier than thou.”

Pluralism pretty much requires such reconciliation, IMO.

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5. A nurturing community

After sacrament meeting, Miralles described being “deeply touched” by what she witnesses in the Relief Society — namely, “the open exchanges between women of completely different generations and backgrounds.”

From a single mother who spoke about God and other church members, to another who described additional scripture reading helping her feel less “grumpy at work,” Miralles observes that overall “problems were brought forwards and sensitively discussed, with others in the group sharing advice ranging from the purely practical to the deeply spiritual.”

“Most of the problems were common issues we all encounter,” she adds. “It’s just that the rest of us have to pay for therapy to get a sterile version of the wisdom and warmth I saw in the room that day.”

“That’s the beauty of congregating,” Carroll tells her. “We experience God in different ways and sharing that helps me to not put God in a box.”

“Their superpower is community,” Miralles concludes.

Good stuff, this.  The influence and power of community is significant.  When that community coheres around sound moral precepts, the goodness of that influence and power is made manifest.

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6. Behavioral boundaries, not dissimilar to those any communities have

Where other religious groups seem to have “relaxed in our lawless times,” Miralles highlights continuing firm boundaries in the faith when it comes to sexual relations and alcohol.

These and other guidelines may “repel our largely liberal progressive population,” she says, “even as we’re willing to cut out delicious gluten, commit to killer pilates sessions, and pay for webinars on sexual boundaries.”

I have been thinking about this for quite a while now.  Critics of the Church lambast us for maintaining "firm boundaries," while elsewhere imposing - or acquiescing to - other boundaries set up by other groups for other reasons.

The Law of Chastity is a good example.  Virtually everyone agrees that we must create and maintain boundaries differentiating proper/acceptable sexual behavior from improper and unacceptable behavior.  We differ in the particulars.  I think the Church's position is eminently reasonable, which is that sexual behavior is (A) limited to husband and wife for (B) procreation and (C) strengthening their union.  Others disregard marriage is a boundary line, or radically re-define "marriage" to vary from (A) (and, usually, (B)).

I have never thought about "pay{ing} for webinars on sexual boundaries" because I already subscribe to the doctrines and teachings of the Church about sexuality, treatment of others, etc., and those doctrines and teachings make such webinars superfluous.

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“So why is it ‘uncool’ to be neatly dressed, polite and health-conscious, as all the church members I’ve met are?”

Her answer: Although most people in modern society know from experience the benefits of personal discipline, they also “want to be seen to support a world with no limits” and “not have rules mandated from on high.”

This can be “challenging in a world that offers so much” and maybe even lead sometimes to feel like “you’re missing out,” Carroll admits. “But I think it’s important to understand the why.”

“I’ve recognized that when I live my life a certain way I am able to hear God more clearly. I feel connected and I feel his love.”

People "want to be seen to support a world with no limits."

I think the Church's teachings are better:

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{While at the MTC} I enjoyed telling them the story of the little boy who went to the park with his father to fly a kite.

The boy was very young. It was his first experience with kite flying. His father helped him, and after several attempts the kite was in the air. The boy ran and let out more string, and soon the kite was flying high. The little boy was so excited; the kite was beautiful. Eventually there was no more string left to allow the kite to go higher. The boy said to his father, “Daddy, let’s cut the string and let the kite go; I want to see it go higher and higher.”

His father said, “Son, the kite won’t go higher if we cut the string.”

“Yes, it will,” responded the little boy. “The string is holding the kite down; I can feel it.” The father handed a pocketknife to his son. The boy cut the string. In a matter of seconds the kite was out of control. It darted here and there and finally landed in a broken heap. That was difficult for the boy to understand. He felt certain the string was holding the kite down.

The commandments and laws of God are like the kite string. They lead us and guide us upward. Obedience to these laws gives us peace, hope, and direction.

Simple, yet profound.

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7. Genuine commitment born from individual experiences of God’s goodness

“It’s not a burden or a hindrance that maybe I can’t watch the football on a Sunday morning,” Major told Miralles about his Sunday worship. “You have to flip it. ... I genuinely believe that taking that bread and water every week and spending five minutes thinking about Jesus Christ will be healthy for me. ... Two hours on a weekend is not that big an ask.”

Quite so. 

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All the Latter-day Saints she has met, Miralles says, “describe personal experiences with God” — sharing Major’s observation that “God doesn’t just put his hands on the lives of people with faith. It’s just the people with faith will recognize him.”

Carroll describes “taking a moment to check in with God” as a way to help her in a grueling career, and how her experience “learning to ‘hear him’ improves over time.”

When Major is asked whether he “always believed the religion he was brought up in,” he goes back to his mission in Chile. “You don’t spend two years away from your family in a foreign country preaching every day unless you’re already converted.”

I'll quibble here a bit.  Conversion is, for many (most?), a process, not an event. And some folks can have reversals in their faith journey, even during or after missionary service.

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8. Socialized in a certain direction, like all communities do

Miralles writes that she “can’t stop thinking” about that young pair of missionaries “who have chosen to travel across the world and spread the gospel” — a choice she describes as “so far from the orbit of my British adolescence, which hinged on binge-drinking and blackouts.”

When it comes to those insisting that religious young people are “brainwashed” or “indoctrinated,” the journalist gets candid: “But so was I — I thought taking handfuls of ecstasy made me an interesting person. Who are we to say whose programming is more harmful long term?”

Ah.  This candor is pretty refreshing.

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Community socialization doesn’t disallow real choice, she notes — quoting Carroll, who often asks siblings who have stepped away from the faith, “forget about the church community, what do you believe about God?”

“It comes down to choosing to believe,” this Latter-day Saint woman says, “and asking, do we want to have a faith in our life?”

Miralles asks the missionaries point blank if they feel like they’re “missing out.” After describing others who have grown distant from the faith, one missionary said that leading “normal” lives hadn’t made these loved ones happier.

“I’m my happiest when I’m in church,” he adds.

“His face is quite literally shining with joy as he tells his story,” Miralles says. “And I don’t doubt him for a second.”

I echo this sentiment.  As a Latter-day Saint, I am surely "missing out" on some things, but not things which answer to the 13th Article of Faith: "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

“It’s actually funny, because I think you’re one of the most diverse religions ethnically,” she tells the Deseret News. “But that’s not known.”

I would not be surprised if this was so outside of the US.  There are still many mostly white congregations in the US, I suspect, especially in Utah. (Utah is almost 90% white, a little over 60% for the US).

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Funny how "the norm" can be so different in so many ways.  I asked ChatGPT to create "a graph showing the average family size over the last 100 years in the United Kingdom."  The results:

Not showing anything for me.

[Calm]

Here is the original piece (DN linked to it, but saving the step for you  )

https://www.londnr.com/london/light-reading-myth-busting-mormonism-in-london

[Calm]

Here is the AI rendering of two missionaries, why is everybody laughing?

 

 

[webbles]

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

Here is the AI rendering of two missionaries, why is everybody laughing?

 

 

That feels like a scene from the Book of Mormon musical.  I wonder if there's enough imagery from that musical that causes the AI to associate it with missionaries.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Here is the AI rendering of two missionaries, why is everybody laughing?

 

 

AI is so bad with body parts.  How hard is it to make sure an arm ends in a hand and that the hand has five fingers. 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Yet another result of "othering" the Latter-day Saints.

Have you ever considered that some of this so called "othering" is from Mormonism and its LDS culture.  "Be in the world and not of it."  "We are a peculiar people, a chose generation."  The idea of leaving Babylon and taking refuge in Zion.  The early gathering of the saints and the doctrine of returning the Jackson County to build the New Jerusalem.  The doctrine that ONLY  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has God's Priesthood Power. That the LDS Prophet is the Prophet for the world.  Don't date or marry non members.  Every member a missionary. Get your friends into your home to have the missionaries teach them. Be careful of who you associate with and on and on.  Othering is well rooted within the paradigms, culture and doctrines of Mormonism.  When I came to the realization that The Church was simply another man made organization I saw the world and my fellow humans in a much different light. It is not just from outsiders. Latter day Saints do quite well at othering themselves.

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

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Yet another result of "othering" the Latter-day Saints.

Have you ever considered that some of this so called "othering" is from Mormonism and its LDS culture. 

Yes.

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

"Be in the world and not of it."  "We are a peculiar people, a chose generation."  The idea of leaving Babylon and taking refuge in Zion. 

I think you and I are using "othering" in different ways.

As Latter-day Saints we do not cloister ourselves, live in communes, etc.  Instead, we are encouraged to integrate into and participate in society, to "bloom" where we are "planted."  

The article gives a variety of examples of errors, falsehoods, misconceptions, etc. about the Latter-day Saints.  We do not claim these or adopt them.  They are, instead, the result of ignorance and/or are imposed on us by people who hope to "other" us, to cast us as weirdos and in the worst possible light, etc.

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

The early gathering of the saints and the doctrine of returning the Jackson County to build the New Jerusalem.  The doctrine that ONLY  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has God's Priesthood Power. That the LDS Prophet is the Prophet for the world.  Don't date or marry non members.  Every member a missionary. Get your friends into your home to have the missionaries teach them. Be careful of who you associate with and on and on. 

None of these are intended to segregate the Latter-day Saints from their neighbors.  And most religions have exclusivistic truth claims.

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Othering is well rooted within the paradigms, culture and doctrines of Mormonism. 

I respectfully disagree.  Again, we are not cloistered.  We do not live in communes.  We do not segregate ourselves from the rest of society.  Instead, we participate in society, serve others, send out missionaries, build temples, and go to great lengths to build bridges of common interests and goals, shared values, and so on.

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

When I came to the realization that The Church was simply another man made organization I saw the world and my fellow humans in a much different light.

I believe the Church was founded by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith.  

I don't know what you mean by "much different light."

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

It is not just from outsiders. Latter day Saints do quite well at othering themselves.

To some extent, perhaps.  We can improve.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 7, 2024 by smac97

[Calm]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

That feels like a scene from the Book of Mormon musical.  I wonder if there's enough imagery from that musical that causes the AI to associate it with missionaries.

That is what I was thinking

[gmormon]

As I read through your post and following comments, the phrase "Utah Mormon" kept popping into my thoughts. I was born and raised in Utah, to make it worse Utah County, multi generational family lines to the early church. However you know what? I have met "Utah Mormons, Otherlings" by the negative connotations some use to describe...me I guess...who have never been to Utah and/or 1st 2nd generation members of the church. I appreciate the reporter's approach to describing members but I also see us in the "Book of Mormon" play

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

When I came to the realization that The Church was simply another man made organization I saw the world and my fellow humans in a much different light.

Let's explore this...

What was you former way of seeing your fellow humans?

Do you believe that your former way of seeing your fellow humans (which from the context seems negatively) was something promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy or something picked-up because of Church culture in the areas in which you resided?

[The Nehor]

 One correction I would make to the article. Plural marriage would not be seen as “woke” right now. The small Christian multiple marriage movement is basically polygyny without the official marriage. Polyamorists generally despise them. There are people who try to combine poly and Christianity. It rarely goes well.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Let's explore this...

What was you former way of seeing your fellow humans?

Do you believe that your former way of seeing your fellow humans (which from the context seems negatively) was something promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy or something picked-up because of Church culture in the areas in which you resided?

 

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Have you ever considered that some of this so called "othering" is from Mormonism and its LDS culture. 

 

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

"Be in the world and not of it." 

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

"We are a peculiar people, a chose generation." 

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

The idea of leaving Babylon and taking refuge in Zion. 

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

The early gathering of the saints and the doctrine of returning the Jackson County to build the New Jerusalem. 

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

The doctrine that ONLY  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has God's Priesthood Power.

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

That the LDS Prophet is the Prophet for the world. 

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Don't date or marry non members. 

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Every member a missionary. Get your friends into your home to have the missionaries teach them.

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Be careful of who you associate with and on and on. 

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy.

 

All he listed was promoted by the church, but even if not he already said that some of the othering comes from "LDS culture".

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Othering is well rooted within the paradigms, culture and doctrines of Mormonism.  When I came to the realization that The Church was simply another man made organization I saw the world and my fellow humans in a much different light. It is not just from outsiders. Latter day Saints do quite well at othering themselves.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

 

 

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy.

 

All he listed was promoted by the church, but even if not he already said that some of the othering comes from "LDS culture".

 

While I appreciate your sincere effort to answer in Teancum's behalf, you haven't really addressed my question- which is how he saw his other fellow humans- which only he can answer because it deals with personal feelings and thoughts.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

While I appreciate your sincere effort to answer in Teancum's behalf, you haven't really addressed my question- which is how he saw his other fellow humans- which only he can answer because it deals with personal feelings and thoughts.

You asked 2 questions. 

I purposely skipped the one asking how he formerly saw his fellow human beings because as you said only he could answer.

While your second question started with "do you believe" I felt you were basically asking a question he already answered directly in the post you were quoting.

If you had instead asked, "Do you believe that your former way of seeing your fellow humans was more promoted by the things you listed from the Church and it's hierarchy or was more something picked-up because of Church culture in the areas in which you resided?" then I would have left the question alone.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2024 by Rain

[Teancum]

Thank you.

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Let's explore this...

What was you former way of seeing your fellow humans?

 

I saw them as humans beings that needed the "gospel if Jesus Christ" to make their life the best it could be.  I wondered about the ideas of being valiant in the pre-existence and whether those not born into the Church and in the "dispensation of the fullness of times" meant something. I felt at times, maybe in an unrighteous way, more privileged with the perceived blessings of the priesthood, temple, forever families and so on. After realizing the church is simply not what it claims I saw my fellow humans as more of the same tribe. I did not feel we were part of the same tribe as a believer.  I used to buy in the "where will you go" if you leave the church that a number of church leaders talks about and I found there are plenty of good and better places and ways to live than Mormonism offers, though it is s fine thing for those who want it. I also view human sexuality and the issues of LBGT topics much differently when I understood that people really are for the most part not free to chose their sexual preferences.  I understood my previous views were totally based on what I viewed as a false premise of some command by a supernatural being.  

Edited to add: Another thought. I grew up in Utah. In the 60s and 70s it was common to refer to anywhere outside of the Mountain West as "The Mission Field" and it seemed to imply that this was a different and even a bit scary place. After my mission I did not stay in Utah and I live now where church membership is rather low and had had no net growth in 40 years. As an adult, when I visited Utah, often I would get question like "So how are things in the Mission Field" and I found that rather odd.  Granted it came from older members. People that were bishops and leaders when I was a teen.  Even before my migration to non belief I found that term odd and even off putting.

 

12 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Do you believe that your former way of seeing your fellow humans (which from the context seems negatively) was something promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy or something picked-up because of Church culture in the areas in which you resided?

I think @Rainsummarized how I would answer quite well.

Edited August 8, 2024 by Teancum

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

Yes.

Greeat.

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think you and I are using "othering" in different ways.

Maybe.  Can you clarify your use?

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

As Latter-day Saints we do not cloister ourselves, live in communes, etc.  Instead, we are encouraged to integrate into and participate in society, to "bloom" where we are "planted."  

I did not say Latter-day Saints cloister themselves in communes.  They do cloister themselves in social circles. In my experience, most LDS friends I have don't socialize much outside the active LDS sphere. I have noted in the past how quickly a number of my LDS friends simply have ignored my inactivity and rarely if ever do they socialize with us anymore. And you even have said that is understandable on their part. We have no home teachers or ministering brothers or sisters or whatever they are called these days. Once in a while the missionaries pop by. The current bishop in for quite some time now has never contacted us nor has his councilors. So I still think they othering, or separating, or whatever you wish to call it, is well rooted in the LDS side of things.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

The article gives a variety of examples of errors, falsehoods, misconceptions, etc. about the Latter-day Saints.  We do not claim these or adopt them.  They are, instead, the result of ignorance and/or are imposed on us by people who hope to "other" us, to cast us as weirdos and in the worst possible light, etc.

I don't disagree.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

None of these are intended to segregate the Latter-day Saints from their neighbors. 

I did not say they did . Yet they do to some extent and also influence how Latter-day Saints see others.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

And most religions have exclusivistic truth claims.

I did not say they don't but so what?  And in Christianity, there is much more broad acceptance of the Christian validity of the various sects and denominations.  I have heard over and over from Protestants I know that all that is important is that the "essential doctrines" are right and other less important variations do not cause one group not to accept the truth claims of another.  This I think if very different from the claim the be The One and Only True Church etc. I would imagine, based on my interactions with my Evangelical Friends there is likely similar cultural things that Latter-day Saints experience. I recall when my children were young we considered a local private schools or even a home schooling and linking up with a home schooling group.  But because we were LDS we were not welcome. It as for actual "Christians" which they viewed us as not.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I respectfully disagree.  Again, we are not cloistered.  We do not live in communes.  We do not segregate ourselves from the rest of society.  Instead, we participate in society, serve others, send out missionaries, build temples, and go to great lengths to build bridges of common interests and goals, shared values, and so on.

Feel free to disagree. I think Latter-day Saints to plenty to socially and emotionally separate themselves from the world at large. And I neve once argued this was a physical thing, communes, etc.  So you are making an argument I did not make.  By the way, actively seeking to convert and the frequent pressure on members to introduce people to missionaries is a way to separate yourselves from others. Building exclusive temples in communities is also. How is that building bridges?  

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I believe the Church was founded by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith.  

Obviously you do.  Obviously I don't.

 

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't know what you mean by "much different light."

See my comments to @ZealouslyStriving

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

To some extent, perhaps.  We can improve.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think there is more room for improvement then you think.  

Edited August 8, 2024 by Teancum

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

 One correction I would make to the article. Plural marriage would not be seen as “woke” right now. The small Christian multiple marriage movement is basically polygyny without the official marriage. Polyamorists generally despise them. There are people who try to combine poly and Christianity. It rarely goes well.

So polyamorists generally embrace polygyny as long as it's not considered marriage and has no religious undertones? 

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

 

 

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy

promoted by the Church and it's hierarchy.

 

All he listed was promoted by the church, but even if not he already said that some of the othering comes from "LDS culture".

 

I think my issue with Teancum's perspective is that how he interpreted all of that above (which was promoted by the church) isn't how I've ever interpreted it.  I'm with Smac when he mentioned not understanding seeing nonmembers differently as an ex-member.

Part of that could be that Teancum grew up in a different time in the church than I have, but if we are talking about the current church, then the church decades ago isn't completely relevant to the article.

 

[california boy]

A couple of comments from my perspective.

 

 

Quote

 

3. A community welcoming of meaningful diversity

When Miralles attends Sunday service with a local London congregation in a “modest red brick,” she’s first “struck” by the diversity she witnessed. “I don’t think there’s a single ethnicity that isn’t represented.”

That’s quite a contrast to the AI rendering of a “stereotypical” Latter-day Saint missionary in her article, which the journalist suggests encapsulates the “biases associated with this diverse and open-minded community.”

 

While there are some places that have a diverse congregation, you can not use that experience to declare that the Church is ethnically diverse.  It does not overcome the fact that Church leadership is almost 100% old white men throughout its entire history.  Nor the problem with the priesthood ban that prohibited an entire race of people from full participation in the Church.  I am just saying, there are concrete reasons why the Church is viewed as not being very diverse that can not be dismissed easily because of who is in the congregation. 

Quote

 

Miralles asks the missionaries point blank if they feel like they’re “missing out.” After describing others who have grown distant from the faith, one missionary said that leading “normal” lives hadn’t made these loved ones happier.

 

This belief that seems to be constantly taught that if you are not in the Church, then your lives are not going to be filled with joy and happiness has, in my opinion, got to stop.  I lived in the Mormon culture for the majority of my life including my adult life.  I found people in the Church to generally be living happy and fulfilling lives.  I have also lived for many years outside of the Mormon culture.  Guess what.  The vast majority of people I have met and associate with since leaving the Church are also living happy and fulfilling lives.  Good choices and finding enriching things that life offers happens both within and outside of the Mormon culture.  

Having lived in both environments, I can honestly say that personally I am significantly happier since I left the Church.  My life is still filled with good friends and strong commitments to give service to others.  I am significantly less judgmental of others which is exactly one of the toxic bi-products of this kind of teachings that seems prevalent in Mormon culture.  Perhaps the biggest personal difference is realizing that being gay does not mean I am sentenced to some lower class that prevents me from enjoying a happy and fulfilling relationship with my partner. And while I don't watch football on Sundays, I also don't miss the endless meetings the Church requires where the same carefully correlated materials are repeated over and over and over again where anything outside the defined lines are strongly discouraged. 

I now fully embrace the idea that there are may paths that lead to happiness.  The Church has no monopoly on that.  

[Rain]

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think my issue with Teancum's perspective is that how he interpreted all of that above (which was promoted by the church) isn't how I've ever interpreted it.  I'm with Smac when he mentioned not understanding seeing nonmembers differently as an ex-member.

Part of that could be that Teancum grew up in a different time in the church than I have, but if we are talking about the current church, then the church decades ago isn't completely relevant to the article.

 

I don't know if interpreted is the right word?  As a member I didn't interpret as others.  As a non believing member I don't interpret it that way either, but I do see consequences of othering from the things he mentioned. 

Even though I've gone through this process reading the scriptures, being prayerful and trying to do what God tells me to do I still feel like I am seen as other.  Maybe that's my own problem and I just need to get past it, but because I'm not a believer of God’s "only" true church then I feel other with most members. For most I'm not on the strait and narrow path. I've let go of the rod. Unless people (and you are a rare one) can accept that maybe I was led in a different direction by God I will be on the outside and other unless I come back. 

And I still strongly believe in God and that he loves me. For those who are not sure or do not believe then the othering consequences will be harder.

 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Part of that could be that Teancum grew up in a different time in the church than I have, but if we are talking about the current church, then the church decades ago isn't completely relevant to the article.

Or area…I grew up in “the Mission Field” in the same time period (or not much earlier…I am 65 and Teancum reads as in his mid to late 50s to me assuming he was early 40s or so when called as a bishop, but I could be way off) I and my closer friends were all nonmembers (Illinois I had no church friends as too far to drive to connect outside of primary; California I had some who went to my school, but more acquaintances than friends; I had one church member close friend at school, but she was in a different ward and both of us were the ‘geek’ or just “odd” type of outsiders and the third of our little semigroup was a nonmember).  I did not see members as privileged or more valiant and as far as I could tell neither did my siblings.  “The Mission Field” label was not seen as derogatory as far as I could tell at that time, just more indicative of a focus of our community.  By the time I graduated college, I could see the usage felt more insulting to those who lived outside of Utah though.  Utah was seen as provincial and unsophisticated by Californian members, at least the teens around me, lol.  My parents were both born in Utah, but never gushed or complained about it…I know they loved California though.  My grandparents who talked about Utah (all were born there) mostly had fond memories as they had close families; the one that had messed up parents loved to talk about taking drives back in his first cars, so I believed he loved the beauty of Utah, but he wasn’t active in the Church as a kid, so I never heard anything about that side of Utah.  All my grandparents preferred “the mission field” as they felt there was more meaningful work as a church member to be done there and my mom was meeting GAs all the time as they would stay or at least eat with her family when traveling out East, which provided her with some wonderful experiences.

There were some members in my California ward who might have treated nonmembers as less than, but I never saw them interact with nonmembers that I remember as they didn’t go to my schools, so who knows.  The reason I suspect they might was because they treated several of the members as less than, so most likely if they did, it was snobbery in general and not a “I am one of the valiant” variety of arrogance…more “I am so smart and talented” or “I am so beautiful” run of the mill arrogance.

I should ask my husband who was born in Provo and grew up in Orem what vibes he got, but knowing him it will be positive because he prefers looking at the world that way.  I did stay in Utah for 4 months in 6th grade, most miserable time of my life though (nothing to do with Utah except for it being drab in winter, my grandmother was a lovely woman, but a rotten caregiver for kids), so I don’t trust my biases.  I was first exposed to the bad swear words then.  It was an eye opener for me that Utah wasn’t quite Zion yet, lol.  I was really worried I was going to get stuck in Utah if I married an Utah boy…and eventually I did and likely will be here till I die, but except for the heat…and to be honest politics, it has been great.  As neighbours, the born and bred have been the kindest, most concerned in my experience and the transplants (most of our friends have at least one in the twosome) are right there with them, just not as motherly, lol.

Edited August 8, 2024 by Calm

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think my issue with Teancum's perspective is that how he interpreted all of that above (which was promoted by the church) isn't how I've ever interpreted it.  I'm with Smac when he mentioned not understanding seeing nonmembers differently as an ex-member.

Part of that could be that Teancum grew up in a different time in the church than I have, but if we are talking about the current church, then the church decades ago isn't completely relevant to the article.

 

I an interested as to how you interpret the many examples I gave of church teachings and culture that I feel create an atmosphere of separation?  I often feel we have been part of two very different churches.