Foretelling in the Book of Mormon

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

All the time asking for the direction of the Spirit, of course. But we digress.

Yes, and Yes.

Sorry 'bout that mi amigo! 🧐

[Bernard Gui]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:30 PM, Bernard Gui said:

The translation process has been well-established.

Earlier in the discussion, I gave this reply to Teancum. Reviewing my posts, what I meant to say is that the translation process has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere. There are advocates for all kinds of scenarios. Since first-hand commentary is limited, much is based on hear-say, speculation, later recollections, etc. 

Here I am giving evidence within the text itself that it was translated from a compiled or edited source as the Book claims. I believe that source was the Spirit, and I move on from that premise. Others are free to disagree.

Edited June 22, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Ryan Dahle]

On 6/20/2024 at 3:47 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Here are some examples. If you know of more, please post them.

Here are many more examples, albeit of different types and significance: 

https://www.scripturecentral.org/evidence/editorial-promises?searchId=53103b289c910288d0ac9ed03e84378f9e10406f28cc0d4340cf2cadc4fda7cf-en

A similar phenomenon of textual complexity arises with fulfilled prophecies: 

https://www.scripturecentral.org/evidence/internal-prophecies?searchId=53103b289c910288d0ac9ed03e84378f9e10406f28cc0d4340cf2cadc4fda7cf-en

And here are two other examples of impressive intertextual consistent with embedded documents that function something like editorial previews: 

https://www.scripturecentral.org/evidence/book-of-mormon-evidence-limhi-s-historical-summary?searchId=53103b289c910288d0ac9ed03e84378f9e10406f28cc0d4340cf2cadc4fda7cf-en

https://www.scripturecentral.org/evidence/mormons-digression-in-alma-53?searchId=53103b289c910288d0ac9ed03e84378f9e10406f28cc0d4340cf2cadc4fda7cf-en

 

Note that Book of Mormon Central just transitioned to Scripture Central, which involved a major website change. Because of that recent overhaul, the formatting of these articles is currently wonky, both for charts and other details. It should be fixed in the coming weeks. But at least the data is there. For now, you will need to view on desktop because the charts with the data won't be fully visible on mobile. 

[Bernard Gui]

For those who are interested.....or even if you aren't interested

Here is a compilation of prophecies about the coming of the Lord to the Nephites.  These include Nephi, Samuel the Lamanite, and Alma.  It's interesting to compare them with what actually happened. Every prophecy was fulfilled, often by multiple 

Thanks to Webbles for reminding me of the prophecy in 1 Nephi 12. I have summarized the various events described by the prophets and gave them a designation...[1N12] etc. Then I listed the events that actually happened in 3 Nephi and paired them with the prophecies that predicted them.

A. WHAT WAS PREDICTED ABOUT THE COMING OF CHRIST BY NEPHITE PROPHETS THROUGHOUT THE BOOK OF MORMON

1 Ne. 12   [1N12]

Nephi sees the future of his people.

• He beheld multitudes gathered together to battle.
• He saw wars, and rumors of wars, and great slaughters with the sword.
• Many generations of wars and contentions plagued land.
• He beheld many cities.
• Great wickedness.
• A mist of darkness on the face of the land of promise.
• There were  lightnings, thunderings, earthquakes, and tumultuous noises.
• The earth and the rocks were rent.
• Mountains tumbled into pieces.
• The plains of the earth were broken up.
• Cities were sunk or burned with fire.
• Many cities tumbled to the earth, because of the quaking thereof.
• A vapor of darkness.
• The righteous were spared.
• Jesus descended from heaven and showed himself to them.
• He ordained 12 disciples who are of great importance.
• After four generations wickedness and war return.
• The Nephites were destroyed by the Lamanites.
• The Lamanites become loathsome and abominable.

 

1 Nephi 19       [1N19]

At the death of Christ, Zenos prophesied….

• Three days of darkness a sign given to inhabitants of the isles of the sea, especially those who are of the house of Israel.
• Some will be visited with the Lord’s voice.
• Some will visited with thundering, lightning, tempest, fire, smoke, opening of the earth, mountains being carried up.
• The rocks of the earth will rend, the earth will groan.
• The sea shall be wrought up.

2 Nephi 25-26      [2N25]

Nephi's extended prophecy of the future of his people...

• The Messiah will come 600  years after the Lehites left Jerusalem.
• Nephi's words will be kept, preserved, and handed down from generation to generation.
• There will be many wars among them
• Christ will appear to the Nephites after his resurrection
• Christ’s words will become their law
• Signs will be given them of Christ’s birth, death, and resurrection
• The wicked Nephites will be swallowed up into the earth.
• Mountains will cover them, whirlwinds will carry them away
• Buildings will fall on them.
• They will be visited with thundering, lightning, earthquakes, and fire.
• The righteous Nephites will be preserved.
• Christ will heal them.
• They will prosper in righteousness.
• After four generations, they will begin to be destroyed because of wickedness

Helaman 13-14    [H13]

At the death of Christ Samuel the Lamanite predicted…

• Before Jesus is born there will be two days without a night.
• The sun shall be darkened for the space of three days.
• There shall be thunderings and lightnings for many hours.
• The earth shall shake and tremble.
• The rocks which shall be broken up.
• There shall be great tempests.
• Many highways shall be broken up.
• Many cities shall become desolate.
• Many graves shall be opened.
• Saints shall appear unto many.
• There were exceedingly sharp lightnings.
• The city of Zarahemla did take fire.
• The city of Moroni did sink into the depths of the sea.
• The whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest, whirlwinds, the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth.
• Many great and notable cities were  sunk.
• Many were burned.
• The highways were broken up.
• Many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain.
• There were some who were carried away in the whirlwind.
• The Nephites will be destroyed after the 4th generation (400 years).
• Great destruction shall come upon the Nephites.
• Treasures will be cursed and lost.
• The Lamanites will turn on the Nephites.
• The Lord will withdraw his Spirit from them.

Alma 45:20    [A45]

Alma prophesies of the destruction of the Nephites after the coming of Christ.

• After the 4th generation (400 years) the Nephites will fall into great wickedness.
• The Lamanites will destroy the Nephites.

 

B. WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED

3 Nephi 8 etc.

And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month….

• Before Jesus was born there were two days without a night. ✓  [H13]
• 600 years after Lehi came to the Promised Land. ✓  [2N25]
• Great wickedness covered the land. ✓ [1N12]
• Wars and rumors of wars.✓ [1N12  2N25]
• A great storm. ✓ [1N12]
• A great and terrible tempest. ✓ [H14]
• Thunder shaking the earth. ✓ [1N12 H14 H14]
• Sharp lightning.✓ 1N12 N19 H14]
• Cities caught fire, sank into the ocean, and were covered by the earth. ✓ 1N12 N19 H13]
• Inhabited cities desolated. ✓ [H13]
• People were covered by the earth and the ocean. ✓ [2N25 H14]
• The face of the earth was changed by the quaking of the earth. ✓ [1N12 H14]
• Smooth places became rough. ✓ [1N12 ]
• Rocks were broken up. ✓ [1N12 N19 H14]
• A whirlwind that carried people away. ✓ [2N25 H14]
• The sun was darkened. ✓ [H13]
• A vapor of darkness for three days. ✓ [1N12 N19 H13]
• Graves opened and resurrected saints appeared. ✓ [H13]
• The righteous Nephites were spared.✓ [ 1N12 2N25]
• A voice that came from God. ✓  [1N19]
• Jesus chose 12 disciples who become consequential. ✓ [1Nephi 12}
• Jesus appeared to them, taught, and healed them. ✓ [1N12 2N25]
• They lived in peace and righteousness for 4 generations. ✓ [2N25 H13]
• After four generations great wickedness, war, and destruction begin. ✓ [2N25 A45 H13]
• Treasures cursed and lost. [H13]
• The Lord removes his Spirit from them. ✓ [H13]
• Lamanites destroy the Nephites. ✓ [2N25 H13]
• Lamanites become loathsome and abominable. ✓ [1 Nephi 12]

Edited June 22, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Ryan Dahle said:

Here are many more examples, albeit of different types and significance: 

https://www.scripturecentral.org/evidence/editorial-promises?searchId=53103b289c910288d0ac9ed03e84378f9e10406f28cc0d4340cf2cadc4fda7cf-en

A similar phenomenon of textual complexity arises with fulfilled prophecies: 

https://www.scripturecentral.org/evidence/internal-prophecies?searchId=53103b289c910288d0ac9ed03e84378f9e10406f28cc0d4340cf2cadc4fda7cf-en

And here are two other examples of impressive intertextual consistent with embedded documents that function something like editorial previews: 

https://www.scripturecentral.org/evidence/book-of-mormon-evidence-limhi-s-historical-summary?searchId=53103b289c910288d0ac9ed03e84378f9e10406f28cc0d4340cf2cadc4fda7cf-en

https://www.scripturecentral.org/evidence/mormons-digression-in-alma-53?searchId=53103b289c910288d0ac9ed03e84378f9e10406f28cc0d4340cf2cadc4fda7cf-en

 

Note that Book of Mormon Central just transitioned to Scripture Central, which involved a major website change. Because of that recent overhaul, the formatting of these articles is currently wonky, both for charts and other details. It should be fixed in the coming weeks. But at least the data is there. For now, you will need to view on desktop because the charts with the data won't be fully visible on mobile. 

Thank you. This is remarkable stuff. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 6/21/2024 at 6:09 PM, webbles said:

The curtain is interesting because we have witnesses that say there was a curtain and witnesses who say there weren't a curtain (see the bottom of the same page you linked to for some of those references).  Hiding behind a curtain makes it a lot easier to have note cards but it is much harder when there is no curtain.  The fact that he apparently translated the plates under lots of different settings (curtain, no curtain, hat, no hat, in the family area, in a private room, multiple transcribers, etc), makes it harder to believe that he was able to pull of a con on all the people who had the opportunity to watch.

In a tavern, too! This is what happens when we play the telephone game with historical events. There were a lot of people involved so if he used notes or another manuscript, someone must have seen seen them.

On 6/21/2024 at 6:09 PM, webbles said:

There's also the story from Martin where he swapped out the seer stone from the hat.  That doesn't sound like he was afraid of dying to look too closely if he was willing to look in the hat and swap the stone.

If I were given such a warning, it would not terrify. I would just steer clear. Like if someone says I will die if I touch that downed electrical transmission wire, I won't be scared, I'll just stay away.

On 6/21/2024 at 6:09 PM, webbles said:

It is also interesting that Oliver apparently had an attempt to translate the plates.  I personally think he tried to use a dowsing rod to do the translation and that mechanism didn't work.  But it would be odd for Joseph Smith to have had a book pre-written or with notes and then trust another person to "translate" without giving him access to said notes?  Maybe Joseph just expected Oliver to fail since he knew it was all a fraud and so he "allowed" Oliver to attempt to help strengthen his position?

I can't imagine how a dowsing rod would work for a translation. The county workers who came to mark the water line from the meter to our home used one. It worked for them. I was taught how to use one by an engineer who worked for the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory. Worked for him.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, webbles said:

You didn't mention the 1 Nephi 12/13 vision, which appears to be the source for the 2 Nephi 25/26 prophecies.  That vision and the prophecies kind of puzzle me.  This part of the Book of Mormon was translated near the end.  So by this time, Joseph had already written out what is being prophesied.  I feel it would be pretty easy to have remembered a summary of what had happened. 

Thanks for reminding me of 1 Nephi 12, a part of his remarkable vision shown to him by an angel. It is similar to 2 Nephi 26, but there are differences. I don't think it was a "copy and paste." Since he wrote the books, it is very possible that Nephi was referring back to his vision and incorporating it into this new prophecy of the future. It was not a "copy/paste" exercise, though. 

Do you think Joseph would remember such minute details after seeing the words only once and that during a translation? To me that would indicate he had a photographic memory. It's possible. I wonder if there were other examples of this gift in his life. 

9 hours ago, webbles said:

Except the prophecy doesn't look very accurate to me.  The prophecy only talks about his seed and his brothers seed with absolutely no mention of the Zarahemlites.  It makes it seem like his seed is still separate from his brothers seed at the end, but 4 Nephi says that the two completely intermixed and separated based on religion, not ancestry.  So the Nephites after 4 Nephi may not be descendants of Nephi.  Even the 4 generation prophecy is possibly inaccurate since people started to break away while the 2nd generation was still alive (see 4 Nephi 1:20,22) so it is possible that some 2nd or 3rd generation were not righteous.  And 4 Nephi doesn't really deal with generations but with centuries (first century is righteous, second century is mostly righteous, third century has major divisions).

At this time there were no Zarahemlites (Mulekites), so it doesn't surprise me that they are not mentioned. After they were discovered, they eventually were assimilated by the Nephites. Over the centuries, two peoples intermingled and became descendants of both Lehi and Mulek. Granted some Nephites claimed to be pure descendants of Nephi. That would be an interesting topic for another discussion.

For the same reason, I am certain descendants of Nephi remained after their civilization was destroyed. Nephites and Lamanites (and all the other -ites) lived together for 400 years after Christ's visit. Plenty of time for blending families. A few rebellious folks started to break away in the second generation. This started a division among the people that ultimately resulted in devastation over 400 years later. It seems to me generations and one hundred years mean the same thing. I 

As in this definition of "generation" in Webster's 1828 dictionary...

Quote

2. A single succession in natural descent, as the children of the same parents; hence, an age. Thus we say, the third, the fourth, or the tenth generation. Gen.15.16.

3. The people of the same period, or living at the same time.

 

9 hours ago, webbles said:

If Joseph was making it up and had notes to remember all of the important details, 1 Nephi 12/13 doesn't feel that way.  The vision actually looks inaccurate to me.  So I'm not sure whether it is a true vision or something made up by Joseph.  Based on visions in the Bible, it fits as a vision because it is somewhat vague.  But based on other visions/prophecies in the Book of Mormon, it doesn't fit because it is somewhat vague.  But it should've been more like the other Book of Mormon prophecies if Joseph was making it up because he had already written everything so knew the ending and didn't need to be vague.  So it just puzzles me.

1 Nephi 12 seems pretty accurate and specific to me. Again, I don't believe Joseph could remember such details after having read the text only once while dictating it word for word and given all the other stuff that was happening in his life at that time. But maybe he really was that capable.

[webbles]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Do you think Joseph would remember such minute details after seeing the words only once and that during a translation? To me that would indicate he had a photographic memory. It's possible. I wonder if there were other examples of this gift in his life. 

When the three witnesses were mentioned in the translation, they (Joseph, Oliver) acted on it.  So they were paying attention.  I find it doubtful that they were just writing as fast as possible without also reading and pondering what was happening.  They wouldn't have had a lot of time, but I'd expect they would have remembered the major ideas.

But I was specifically talking about the idea of Joseph being the creator of the Book of Mormon.  By the time 1 Nephi 12 was written, Joseph had already come up with the entire story.  If he had notes, it would include everything that 1 Nephi 12 was going to talk about.  So, if Joseph was the creator, I'd expect 1 Nephi 12 to be pretty accurate.  But I find it more vague.

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It seems to me generations and one hundred years mean the same thing.

1 Nephi 12 says that there are 3 generations of righteousness and then the 4th generation fell away.  4 Nephi says there was 100 years of righteousness, then some fell away in the second century, and then everything fell apart in the third century.  So generations and one hundred years can't mean the same thing.  And your Webster dictionary also doesn't help since people were falling away while the 2nd generation (per 4 Nephi) were still alive.  I don't know how Nephi was using generations, but I find it odd that Mormon used centuries in 4 Nephi and Nephi used generations in 1 Nephi.  If Joseph had written it, I'd have expected him to use the same type of counting in both, especially since 4 Nephi was written before 1 Nephi.  It is also odd that 2 Nephi 26 uses 600 years to indicate when Christ comes but then uses generations to indicate how long they are righteous.  If Joseph was creating it, not sure why he would use the vague term "generation" when he already knew exactly how many years had taken for the people to become unrighteous.

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks for reminding me of 1 Nephi 12, a part of his remarkable vision shown to him by an angel. It is similar to 2 Nephi 26, but there are differences. I don't think it was a "copy and paste." Since he wrote the books, it is very possible that Nephi was referring back to his vision and incorporating it into this new prophecy of the future. It was not a "copy/paste" exercise, though.

Yeah, I didn't mean "copy/paste".

[Teancum]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:30 PM, Bernard Gui said:

The translation process has been well-established.

Oh sure.  Based on the faith promoting narrative. Lot's of holes in that narrative though.

[Teancum]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:37 PM, Bernard Gui said:

I deliberately left out his prophecies about Columbus, et al., and only included those that were fulfilled throughout the rest of the Book of Mormon.

What is  your evidence that he had "the whole of the lot before [him]"?

Simple. The BoM is a 19th century creation. Whoever wrote it obviously had knowledge of the topics that were written in the book. They wrote of "prophecies" that they knew had already happened.  

[mfbukowski]

On 6/21/2024 at 2:04 PM, The Nehor said:

Yep, this is how I do it. I will often have six words written down to move through when I speak and the words make no sense to anyone else.

Yeah the problem I have had is writing down those six words, then when standing at the podium, the words make no sense to ME any more.!  😱

[Ryan Dahle]

On 6/21/2024 at 8:16 AM, Teancum said:

This does not seem to help you at all really. As a work of fiction the author would have the whole of the lot before them.  It is pretty easy to put prophecy in the mouth of the character in the book when the prophecy has already come to pass. It is also telling that the prophecies of Nephi about the founding of the USA, Columbus, etc abruptly stop at the time the book of Mormon was published and it was passed off as "Well those items are left for John the Revelator to write so we cannot write about them here.

The point of the evidence isn't about whether or not the author would have conceptually been able to create a fictional fulfillment of a fictional prophecy, on an item-by-item basis. The issue is about the manifold complexity of the text, especially regarding nuanced details and wording that don't play a significant role in the narrative. The more layers and types of complexity that you stack on top of one another other, the less likely it is that Joseph Smith would have been able to fabricate and then dictate such a text, especially under the constraining circumstances reported by multiple witnesses to the translation event. The Book of Mormon's many fulfilled prophecies and editorial promises are part of a larger set of such features. 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Ryan Dahle said:

The point of the evidence isn't about whether or not the author would have conceptually been able to create a fictional fulfillment of a fictional prophecy, on an item-by-item basis. The issue is about the manifold complexity of the text, especial ally regarding nuanced details and wording that don't play a significant role in the narrative. The more layers and types of complexity that you stack on top of one another other, the less likely it is that Joseph Smith would have been able to fabricate and then dictate such a text, especially under the constraining circumstances reported by multiple witnesses to the translation event. The Book of Mormon's many fulfilled prophecies and editorial promises are part of a larger set of such features. 

Isn't this pretty much found in every mystery book and other works of fiction?  I honestly don't see how this is some kind of magical indication that the BoM is what it claims to be when there are literally thousands of authors who do this on a regular basis with no claim of divine intervention.  

Honestly for me, I have kinda an opposite reaction.  When someone prophesies in a book the exact number of years that will pass before Christ will be born, that just doesn't seem to fit any other prophesy.  Maybe am wrong, but can you point to any prophesy in the Bible that has that kind of exact dating for its fulfillment?

[Ryan Dahle]

6 minutes ago, california boy said:

Isn't this pretty much found in every mystery book and other works of fiction?  I honestly don't see how this is some kind of magical indication that the BoM is what it claims to be when there are literally thousands of authors who do this on a regular basis with no claim of divine intervention.

No, the Book of Mormon is unusually complex on a lot of levels that many (probably the vast majority) of fictional works aren't. 

When this lengthy text's unusual degree of complexity and consistency is viewed in conjunction with the the author's age, the author's limited literary experience, the author's limited formal education, and with the uniquely constraining manner of the text's production (sustained oral dictation with no notes, manuscripts, prompts from scribes, or substantive revisions), it offers extraordinary evidence supporting Joseph Smith's extraordinary claims. 

[The Nehor]

One prophecy fulfillment that seemed kinda ham-fisted to me was the prophecy that the graves would be opened and the risen appear unto many. Samuel makes the prophecy. Then it isn’t mentioned until Jesus appears and points out that this happened and it wasn’t recorded.

You can see in this Jesus correcting an error.

Or you can see it as the writer realizing they missed a prophecy and having God fix it. The odd part is if the records were corrected the story would have made just as much sense if the fulfillment of that prophecy was put in in chronological sequence and then Jesus still issues the correction as Mormon would have been dealing with the corrected records.

[the narrator]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:57 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

I invite all critics to write a work of equal quality and allow their work to undergo the same withering scrutiny the Book of Mormon has gone through through the last almost 2 centuries.

Until then, I will continue to be skeptical of your skepticism.

For the same reason I am skeptical of Usain Bolt's sprint record. Until others are able to run as fast as him, I must be suspicious of it.

Seriously though, I don't think anybody is claiming that Joseph Smith was just some ordinary dude. Individual people do incredible things all of the time that few others can duplicate. My 13-yr-old autistic daughter is capable of art and storytelling that I am entirely incapable of doing. For a few years now, she and her fellow neurodivergent friends have gotten together daily at lunch to discuss Realm, a PARACOSM that they have created with hundreds of named persons, gods, places, etc. It's full of legends, myths, and histories that they retell and build off of.

Here is an example of a paracosm developed by some 19the century teenage farmboys: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/05/nelson-archive-at-amherst-a-one-of-a-kind-trove-reveals-what-rural-19th-century-american-boyhood-was-really-like.html

[the narrator]

1 hour ago, Ryan Dahle said:

When this lengthy text's unusual degree of complexity and consistency is viewed in conjunction with the the author's age, the author's limited literary experience, the author's limited formal education, and with the uniquely constraining manner of the text's production (sustained oral dictation with no notes, manuscripts, prompts from scribes, or substantive revisions), it offers extraordinary evidence supporting Joseph Smith's extraordinary claims.

A lot here involves a failure to recognize the non-literary orally-focused culture Joseph grew up in. Childhood education involved little reading and even less writing. Instead, it primarily involved memorization and recitation. While it's a pretty clear fact that Joseph could and did read quite extensively, he like most children at the time would have been taught to read at home with the KJV, where it was common and encouraged to memorize passages, and names of children who had memorized the entire bible were published in local newspapers. It also seems clear that Joseph was less skilled at writing and instead preferred dictating, such that most of Joseph's personal "writings" were actually dictated to someone else to transcribe. This involves very different mental processes and matches not only the production of the Book of Mormon, but the oratory world that Joseph grew up in. Thus, instead of comparing Joseph to other authors, he should instead be compared to and bundled with oral storytellers, and more particularly with revivalist preachers. If Joseph was an earnest religious seeker in his teen years, then he would have likely listened to hundreds of hours of sermoning that were usually presented without notes and involved quoting scripture and incorporating religious themes and languages from populer sermons by persons like John Wesley and Jonathon Edwards. In fact, some of the most popular theological phrases and ideas in the Book of Mormon, such as "plan of salvation," "when they are learned," "think they are wise," "steadfastness in Christ," "natural man is an enemy to God," and "Deny yourselves of all ungodliness" can all be found in published sermons from the 18th century and early 19th century before the BofM. (I am pretty confident that several dozens could also be found. These were just phrases that Tad Callister offered as evidence of the BofM's divine authorship, which took me 5 minutes to find preceding the BofM.)

And as I noted in a comment above, the Book of Mormon very much matches that of a complex paracosm, particularly in the way that it was developed over many years, with "Joseph . . . occasionally giv[ing] us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship." With a broad paracosm in place that spanned centuries and multiple people, Joseph could on the fly incorporate contemporary events (such as Mordecai Noah's plan to bring in Jews to New England to teach Native Americans about their lost Jewish heritage and religion) or personal experiences into the narrative.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Ryan Dahle said:

No, the Book of Mormon is unusually complex on a lot of levels that many (probably the vast majority) of fictional works aren't. 

When this lengthy text's unusual degree of complexity and consistency is viewed in conjunction with the the author's age, the author's limited literary experience, the author's limited formal education, and with the uniquely constraining manner of the text's production (sustained oral dictation with no notes, manuscripts, prompts from scribes, or substantive revisions), it offers extraordinary evidence supporting Joseph Smith's extraordinary claims. 

I realize this is a book of faith to you and many others.  I really don't have an interest in invading that belief you hold.  But there are many outside your faith that would disagree with your perspective and can point to a lot of flaws that they see in the book to support their view that it has no divine origin.

[the narrator]

On 6/22/2024 at 5:47 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Do you think Joseph would remember such minute details after seeing the words only once and that during a translation? To me that would indicate he had a photographic memory. It's possible. I wonder if there were other examples of this gift in his life. 

You're assuming "seeing" and "translation." The better way to phrase it would be "Do you think Joseph would remember such minute details after dictating the words from a story in his head?

This would not require a photographic memory, but instead a brain educated and trained on memory and recitation and a world less drowning in a constant onslaught of information. A little neurodivergence, likely hyperphantasia, and maybe some from of hyperthymesia would help though.

Edited June 24, 2024 by the narrator

[Ryan Dahle]

40 minutes ago, california boy said:

I realize this is a book of faith to you and many others.  I really don't have an interest in invading that belief you hold.  But there are many outside your faith that would disagree with your perspective and can point to a lot of flaws that they see in the book to support their view that it has no divine origin.

You know people who disagree with me. Got it. 

[Ryan Dahle]

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

A lot here involves a failure to recognize the non-literary orally-focused culture Joseph grew up in. Childhood education involved little reading and even less writing. Instead, it primarily involved memorization and recitation. While it's a pretty clear fact that Joseph could and did read quite extensively, he like most children at the time would have been taught to read at home with the KJV, where it was common and encouraged to memorize passages, and names of children who had memorized the entire bible were published in local newspapers. It also seems clear that Joseph was less skilled at writing and instead preferred dictating, such that most of Joseph's personal "writings" were actually dictated to someone else to transcribe. This involves very different mental processes and matches not only the production of the Book of Mormon, but the oratory world that Joseph grew up in. Thus, instead of comparing Joseph to other authors, he should instead be compared to and bundled with oral storytellers, and more particularly with revivalist preachers. If Joseph was an earnest religious seeker in his teen years, then he would have likely listened to hundreds of hours of sermoning that were usually presented without notes and involved quoting scripture and incorporating religious themes and languages from populer sermons by persons like John Wesley and Jonathon Edwards. In fact, some of the most popular theological phrases and ideas in the Book of Mormon, such as "plan of salvation," "when they are learned," "think they are wise," "steadfastness in Christ," "natural man is an enemy to God," and "Deny yourselves of all ungodliness" can all be found in published sermons from the 18th century and early 19th century before the BofM. (I am pretty confident that several dozens could also be found. These were just phrases that Tad Callister offered as evidence of the BofM's divine authorship, which took me 5 minutes to find preceding the BofM.)

And as I noted in a comment above, the Book of Mormon very much matches that of a complex paracosm, particularly in the way that it was developed over many years, with "Joseph . . . occasionally giv[ing] us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship." With a broad paracosm in place that spanned centuries and multiple people, Joseph could on the fly incorporate contemporary events (such as Mordecai Noah's plan to bring in Jews to New England to teach Native Americans about their lost Jewish heritage and religion) or personal experiences into the narrative.

Lot's of people tell stories, even today. But the types of stories that people are used to telling in their daily lives, or even sermons or talks that they might give in religious settings, are so different from what is going on in the Book of Mormon that that line of reasoning, imo, has little explanatory power. It hardly accounts for the type of sustained, stacked complexity that I see in the text.

If an oral culture readily provided the means for dictating massive, complex texts like the Book of Mormon in short amounts of time, we would probably come across a lot more frontier farmers (or other poorly educated people) who accomplished similar feats. But we just don't. I find it somewhat ironic that the closest examples to the Book of Mormon (which I still think are far from being truly analogous) come from texts that were purportedly produced through supernatural means. 

Edited June 24, 2024 by Ryan Dahle

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Ryan Dahle said:

The issue is about the manifold complexity of the text, especially regarding nuanced details and wording that don't play a significant role in the narrative.

My testimony is all I need to know to SHOW me that Joseph was a prophet.      

But according to what your are saying here, Tolkien could not have written all the books he did without error upon error.

It's just plainly a bad argument and doesn't help your/ our views that Joseph was indeed a prophet.

[Ryan Dahle]

41 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

My testimony is all I need to know to SHOW me that Joseph was a prophet.   

Great. 

41 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

But according to what your are saying here, Tolkien could not have written all the books he did without error upon error.

No, I never said or implied that.
 

Quote

It's just plainly a bad argument and doesn't help your/ our views that Joseph was indeed a prophet.

What I'm saying is that if Tolkien didn't have much of an education or any prior literary experience, and then if he had tried, at 23 years old, to dictate the Lord of the Rings to scribes, in about a three or four month period (it is about 1/3 longer than the BofM) without relying on any notes or manuscripts, and without making any substantive revisions, then I would expect the text to look far less polished and consistent than it is today. As is, the nature of the text matches its known production history and author. Not even close with the Book of Mormon. 

Look, I have read Robert Jordan's 14 volume epic fantasy series, The Wheel of Time, multiple times all the way through, and I have read Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight archive and other cosmere novels and series multiple times through. In other words, I am intimately familiar with very complex texts with elaborate world-building features. So this isn't just a matter of me not understanding what authors are capable of, in the abstract. I think the disconnect is that people don't understand how different it is to try to write something like that without notes or manuscripts and without making revisions, not to mention the lack of education, experience, and other factors. 

I would also just add that I have been studying Book of Mormon complexity very intensely for about half a decade now. So I would like to think that I have some unique insights into the precise nature of its complexity that others might not appreciate. 

Edited June 25, 2024 by Ryan Dahle

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I realize this is a book of faith to you and many others.  I really don't have an interest in invading that belief you hold.  But there are many outside your faith that would disagree with your perspective and can point to a lot of flaws that they see in the book to support their view that it has no divine origin.

OK let's see how you prove a negative while science has no desire to be involved in such worthless- (as they would see the issue) argument, similar to proving there is no Santa Claus!

Again all this is is Positivism rearing its head here by amateur philosophers on a fairly obscure board about keeping this alleged "Santa Claus" alive.  What reputable and known scientist would take on such a stand?   Positivism is dead- and what data would prove that greater unknown forces in the universe do NOT exist?

Isn't it the purpose of science to "discover" unknown forces in the universe?

I always love to see scientists claiming that Newton "discovered"gravity.  No one before Newton of course, saw fruit fall, or rock slides, or notice that they were unable to flap their arms and fly like a bird.

Yes of course that is a semantic issue about what "discovered" really MEANS, and so is this a semantic argument.  Faith is hope for things unseen, so I suppose alleging that science cannot prove things unseen and but hoped for?

Dang!  I was really hoping science could cure cancer, but now I find out they have no hope for things unseen.

 

[california boy]

51 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

My testimony is all I need to know to SHOW me that Joseph was a prophet.      

But according to what your are saying here, Tolkien could not have written all the books he did without error upon error.

It's just plainly a bad argument and doesn't help your/ our views that Joseph was indeed a prophet.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.  Thanks.