Foretelling in the Book of Mormon

[Bernard Gui]

Foretelling in the Book of Mormon

As various Book of Mormon writers compiled their histories, they often included statements  predicting future events that were always fulfilled in later narratives. In my opinion, such foreshadowing indicates that the author knew the outcome of the story he is telling in advance. This means the authors were compilers or editors who knew the end from the beginning. I wonder how Joseph Smith would have accomplished this as he translated each day without notes or asking for reminders of previous text?  

Here are some examples. If you know of more, please post them.

1. The evil traitor Gadianton is introduced. Mormon foretells his significance and where it will be written.

Helaman 2: 12 And more of this Gadianton shall be spoken hereafter…

13 And behold, in the end of this book ye shall see that this Gadianton did prove the overthrow, yea, almost the entire destruction of the people of Nephi. 

14 Behold I do not mean the end of the book of Helaman, but I mean the end of the book of Nephi, from which I have taken all the account which I have written.

 

2. Nephi documents Lehi’s persecution at the hands of the Jews because of his prophecy of their destruction.

1 Nephi 1:20 And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away. But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance.

 

3.  The people of Alma prosper in their new land of Helam. Calamity awaits them, but they will be saved.

Mosiah 23: 20 And it came to pass that they did multiply and prosper exceedingly in the land of Helam; and they built  in a city, which they called the city of Helam.

21 Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith.

22 Nevertheless—whosoever putteth his trust in him the same shall be lifted up at the last day. Yea, and thus it was with this people.

23 For behold, I will show unto you that they were brought into bondage, and none could deliver them but the Lord their God, yea, even the God of Abraham and Isaac and of Jacob.

24 And it came to pass that he did deliver them, and he did show forth his mighty power unto them, and great were their rejoicings.

 

4. Mormon predicts the importance and future inclusion of the Jaredite record.

Mosiah 28:18 Now this account did cause the people of Mosiah to mourn exceedingly, yea, they were filled with sorrow; nevertheless it gave them much knowledge, in the which they did rejoice.

19 And this account shall be written hereafter; for behold, it is expedient that all people should know the things which are written in this account.

 

5. Mormon documents the mission of Alma and Amulek, but before he gets into the story he tells us what is going to happen to them.

Alma 8: 30 And Alma went forth, and also Amulek, among the people, to declare the words of God unto them; and they were filled with the Holy Ghost.

31 And they had power given unto them, insomuch that they could not be confined in dungeons; neither was it possible that any man could slay them; nevertheless they did not exercise their power until they were bound in bands and cast into prison. Now, this was done that the Lord might show forth his power in them.

 

6.  Alma predicts the impending visit of Christ to the Nephites.

Alma 7:7 For behold, I say unto you there be many things to come; and behold, there is one thing which is of more importance than they all—for behold, the time is not far distant that the Redeemer liveth and cometh among his people. 8 Behold, I do not say that he will come among us at the time of his dwelling in his mortal tabernacle; for behold, the Spirit hath not said unto me that this should be the case. Now as to this thing I do not know; but this much I do know, that the Lord God hath power to do all things which are according to his word.

 

7.  Mormon predicts the death of Amalickiah.

Alma 51:9-10 But behold, this was a critical time for such contentions to be among the people of Nephi; for behold, Amalickiah had again stirred up the hearts of the people of the Lamanites against the people of the Nephites, and he was gathering together soldiers from all parts of his land, and arming them, and preparing for war with all diligence; for he had sworn to drink the blood of Moroni.

But behold, we shall see that his promise which he made was rash; nevertheless, he did prepare himself and his armies to come to battle against the Nephites.

 

8.  Helaman tells of success in battle.

Alma 57:7-8 And it came to pass that it was our desire to wage a battle with the army which was placed to protect the city Cumeni. And now behold, I will show unto you that we soon accomplished our desire; yea, with our strong force, or with a part of our strong force, we did surround, by night, the city Cumeni, a little before they were to receive a supply of provisions.

 

9.  Mormon foretells treason.

3 Nephi 6:30 - 7:1 And they did set at defiance the law and the rights of their country; and they did covenant one with another to destroy the governor, and to establish a king over the land, that the land should no more be at liberty but should be subject unto kings. Now behold, I will show unto you that they did not establish a king over the land; but in this same year, yea, the thirtieth year, they did destroy upon the judgment-seat, yea, did murder the chief judge of the land.

 

10.  Mormon tells of the visit of Christ.

3 Nephi 10: 18 And it came to pass that in the ending of the thirty and fourth year, behold, I will show unto you that the people of Nephi who were spared, and also those who had been called Lamanites, who had been spared, did have great favors shown unto them, and great blessings poured out upon their heads, insomuch that soon after the ascension of Christ into heaven he did truly manifest himself unto them - 19 Showing his body unto them, and ministering unto them; and an account of his ministry shall be given hereafter. Therefore for this time I make an end of my sayings.

 

11.  Mormon verifies the testimony of the twelve disciples.

3 Nephi 18: 37 And the multitude heard not the words which he spake, therefore they did not bear record; but the disciples bare record that he gave them power to give the Holy Ghost. And I will show unto you hereafter that this record is true.

 

12.  Moroni predicts the role of the Gadianton in the destruction of his people.

Ether 8: 20 And now I, Moroni, do not write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.

21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.

 

13.  Mormon tells the future of the Nephites and Laminate civilizations.

Hel 3: 14 But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work.

15 But behold, there are many books and many records of every kind, and they have been kept chiefly by the Nephites.

16 And they have been handed down from one generation to another by the Nephites, even until they have fallen into transgression and have been murdered, plundered, and hunted, and driven forth, and slain, and scattered upon the face of the earth, and mixed with the Lamanites until they are no more called the Nephites, becoming wicked, and wild, and ferocious, yea, even becoming Lamanites.

17 And now I return again to mine account;

 

14.  Mormon promises details the baptism of the people of Limhi.

Mosiah 21: 35 They were desirous to be baptized as a witness and a testimony that they were willing to serve God with all their hearts; nevertheless they did prolong the time; and an account of their baptism shall be given hereafter.

 

15.  Mormon predicts the fate of Alma and Amulek.

Alma 8:30 And Alma went forth, and also Amulek, among the people, to declare the words of God unto them; and they were filled with the Holy Ghost.

31 And they had power given unto them, insomuch that they could not be confined in dungeons; neither was it possible that any man could slay them; nevertheless they did not exercise their power until they were bound in bands and cast into prison. Now, this was done that the Lord might show forth his power in them.

 

16.  Mormon gives an account of the mission of the sons of Mosiah.

Mosiah 28: 7 And the Lord said unto Mosiah: Let them go up, for many shall believe on their words, and they shall have eternal life; and I will deliver thy sons out of the hands of the Lamanites.

9 And they took their journey into the wilderness to go up to preach the word among the Lamanites; and I shall give an account of their proceedings hereafter.

 

17.  And the tour de force….

Nephi’s prophecies concerning his people. 1 Nephi 25 and 26.

• The Messiah will come 600  years after the Lehites left Jerusalem.
• Nephi's words will be kept, preserved, and handed down from generation to generation.
• There will be many wars among them.
• Christ will appear to the Nephites after his resurrection.
• Christ’s words will become their law.
• Signs will be given them of Christ’s birth, death, and resurrection.
• The wicked Nephites will be swallowed up into the earth.
• Mountains will cover them, whirlwinds will carry them away.
• Buildings will fall on them.
• They will be visited with thundering, lightning, earthquakes, and fire.
• The righteous Nephites will be preserved.
• Christ will heal them.
• They will prosper in righteousness.
• After four generations, they will begin to be destroyed because of wickedness

Edited June 22, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

This means the authors were more compilers or editors who knew the end from the beginning. I wonder how Joseph Smith would have accomplished this as he translated each day without notes or asking for reminders of previous text?  

I agree that it is pretty amazing, but an easy target for critics, in saying the whole thing was "fiction" so of course he knew the "end from the beginning"   When one is writing a long volume, it typically requires that you have an outline prepared ahead of time, already in your mind, of course but the creative part can be developed on the fly. 

So perhaps you have a general sense of where the plot is going, but how the protagonist escapes from jail, say, in your novel, is not totally put together mentally until you are actually writing it.

Satan is very talented at turning good into evil.

I think probably there are many thinking this right now, but saying nothing.

Edited June 20, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I agree that it is pretty amazing, but an easy target for critics, in saying the whole thing was "fiction" so of course he knew the "end from the beginning"   When one is writing a long volume, it typically requires that you have an outline prepared ahead of time, already in your mind, of course but the creative part can be developed on the fly. 

So perhaps you have a general sense of where the plot is going, but how the protagonist escapes from jail, say, in your novel, is not totally put together mentally until you are actually writing it.

Satan is very talented at turning good into evil.

I think probably there are many thinking this right now, but saying nothing.

So are you saying that while dictating the text Joseph had the ability to remember each time he foretold something and then to include its resolution later sometimes after hundreds of pages in the narrative without notes or review? For example, all the details in 1 Nephi 25-26. and Gadianton. Please explain the process.
 

IMO, that is a phenomenal feat. He must have had a stratospheric IQ or a memory with total recall.  I like my editor/compiler solution better than this. I would love to hear from the critics.

Edited June 21, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So are you saying that while dictating the text Joseph had the ability to remember each time he foretold something and then to include its resolution later sometimes after hundreds of pages in the narrative without notes or review? For example, all the details in 1 Nephi 25-26. and Gadianton. Please explain the process.
 

IMO, that is a phenomenal feat. He must have had a stratospheric IQ or a memory with total recall.  I like my editor/compiler solution better than this. I would love to hear from the critics.

No I am not saying that at all.

Please re-read my post more carefully.

I said :

Quote

 

I agree that it is pretty amazing, but an easy target for critics, in saying the whole thing was "fiction" so of course he knew the "end from the beginning"   When one is writing a long volume, it typically requires that you have an outline prepared ahead of time, already in your mind, of course but the creative part can be developed on the fly. 

So perhaps you have a general sense of where the plot is going, but how the protagonist escapes from jail, say, in your novel, is not totally put together mentally until you are actually writing it.

Satan is very talented at turning good into evil.

I think probably there are many thinking this right now, but saying nothing.

🙂

I am saying that that is a position that a CRITIC might take on.

And how could we possibly know that there were no notes made ?  Suppose Joseph had an eidetic memory?   Suppose he went home and made notes that evening of every "loose end" he needed to resolve later in his "novel".

I am NOT saying any of this happened- but responding to your ARGUMENT which assumes as "fact" some details that are impossible to know- ie: that there were no notes made.  As we often see here, the idea that something did NOT happen - also called "proving a negative"- is terribly difficult to prove.

I am sorry we got off on the wrong foot- my intent was simply to point out that there were flaws in your argument.

But yes, I agree that it can also be seen as a phenomenal fact.

I was thinking in terms of a hypothetical situation that cannot be proven or not proven.  I was talking about the STRUCTURE of the point you were making.

I think I have made my point, and to avoid further misunderstandings, I will simply drop out of the thread.  I really have nothing more to say about it, that's all! 

😀

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I think probably there are many thinking this right now, but saying nothing.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That’s helpful. 

Edited June 21, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Foretelling in the Book of Mormon

As various Book of Mormon writers compiled their histories, they often included statements  predicting future events that were always fulfilled in later narratives. In my opinion, such foreshadowing indicates that the author knew the outcome of the story he is telling in advance. This means the authors were compilers or editors who knew the end from the beginning. I wonder how Joseph Smith would have accomplished this as he translated each day without notes or asking for reminders of previous text?  

Here are some examples. If you know of more, please post them.

1. The evil traitor Gadianton is introduced. Mormon foretells his significance and where it will be written.

Helaman 2: 12 And more of this Gadianton shall be spoken hereafter…

13 And behold, in the end of this book ye shall see that this Gadianton did prove the overthrow, yea, almost the entire destruction of the people of Nephi. 

14 Behold I do not mean the end of the book of Helaman, but I mean the end of the book of Nephi, from which I have taken all the account which I have written.

 

2. Nephi documents Lehi’s persecution at the hands of the Jews because of his prophecy of their destruction.

1 Nephi 1:20 And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away. But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance.

 

3.  The people of Alma prosper in their new land of Helam. Calamity awaits them, but they will be saved.

Mosiah 23: 20 And it came to pass that they did multiply and prosper exceedingly in the land of Helam; and they built  in a city, which they called the city of Helam.

21 Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith.

22 Nevertheless—whosoever putteth his trust in him the same shall be lifted up at the last day. Yea, and thus it was with this people.

23 For behold, I will show unto you that they were brought into bondage, and none could deliver them but the Lord their God, yea, even the God of Abraham and Isaac and of Jacob.

24 And it came to pass that he did deliver them, and he did show forth his mighty power unto them, and great were their rejoicings.

 

4. Mormon predicts the importance and future inclusion of the Jaredite record.

Mosiah 28:18 Now this account did cause the people of Mosiah to mourn exceedingly, yea, they were filled with sorrow; nevertheless it gave them much knowledge, in the which they did rejoice.

19 And this account shall be written hereafter; for behold, it is expedient that all people should know the things which are written in this account.

 

5. Mormon documents the mission of Alma and Amulek, but before he gets into the story he tells us what is going to happen to them.

Alma 8: 30 And Alma went forth, and also Amulek, among the people, to declare the words of God unto them; and they were filled with the Holy Ghost.

31 And they had power given unto them, insomuch that they could not be confined in dungeons; neither was it possible that any man could slay them; nevertheless they did not exercise their power until they were bound in bands and cast into prison. Now, this was done that the Lord might show forth his power in them.

 

6.  Alma predicts the impending visit of Christ to the Nephites.

Alma 7:7 For behold, I say unto you there be many things to come; and behold, there is one thing which is of more importance than they all—for behold, the time is not far distant that the Redeemer liveth and cometh among his people. 8 Behold, I do not say that he will come among us at the time of his dwelling in his mortal tabernacle; for behold, the Spirit hath not said unto me that this should be the case. Now as to this thing I do not know; but this much I do know, that the Lord God hath power to do all things which are according to his word.

 

7.  Mormon predicts the death of Amalickiah.

Alma 51:9-10 But behold, this was a critical time for such contentions to be among the people of Nephi; for behold, Amalickiah had again stirred up the hearts of the people of the Lamanites against the people of the Nephites, and he was gathering together soldiers from all parts of his land, and arming them, and preparing for war with all diligence; for he had sworn to drink the blood of Moroni.

But behold, we shall see that his promise which he made was rash; nevertheless, he did prepare himself and his armies to come to battle against the Nephites.

 

8.  Helaman tells of success in battle.

Alma 57:7-8 And it came to pass that it was our desire to wage a battle with the army which was placed to protect the city Cumeni. And now behold, I will show unto you that we soon accomplished our desire; yea, with our strong force, or with a part of our strong force, we did surround, by night, the city Cumeni, a little before they were to receive a supply of provisions.

 

9.  Mormon foretells treason.

3 Nephi 6:30 - 7:1 And they did set at defiance the law and the rights of their country; and they did covenant one with another to destroy the governor, and to establish a king over the land, that the land should no more be at liberty but should be subject unto kings. Now behold, I will show unto you that they did not establish a king over the land; but in this same year, yea, the thirtieth year, they did destroy upon the judgment-seat, yea, did murder the chief judge of the land.

 

10.  Mormon tells of the visit of Christ.

3 Nephi 10: 18 And it came to pass that in the ending of the thirty and fourth year, behold, I will show unto you that the people of Nephi who were spared, and also those who had been called Lamanites, who had been spared, did have great favors shown unto them, and great blessings poured out upon their heads, insomuch that soon after the ascension of Christ into heaven he did truly manifest himself unto them - 19 Showing his body unto them, and ministering unto them; and an account of his ministry shall be given hereafter. Therefore for this time I make an end of my sayings.

 

11.  Mormon verifies the testimony of the twelve disciples.

3 Nephi 18: 37 And the multitude heard not the words which he spake, therefore they did not bear record; but the disciples bare record that he gave them power to give the Holy Ghost. And I will show unto you hereafter that this record is true.

 

12.  Moroni predicts the role of the Gadianton in the destruction of his people.

Ether 8: 20 And now I, Moroni, do not write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.

21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.

 

13.  Mormon tells the future of the Nephites and Laminate civilizations.

Hel 3: 14 But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work.

15 But behold, there are many books and many records of every kind, and they have been kept chiefly by the Nephites.

16 And they have been handed down from one generation to another by the Nephites, even until they have fallen into transgression and have been murdered, plundered, and hunted, and driven forth, and slain, and scattered upon the face of the earth, and mixed with the Lamanites until they are no more called the Nephites, becoming wicked, and wild, and ferocious, yea, even becoming Lamanites.

17 And now I return again to mine account;

 

14.  Mormon promises details the baptism of the people of Limhi.

Mosiah 21: 35 They were desirous to be baptized as a witness and a testimony that they were willing to serve God with all their hearts; nevertheless they did prolong the time; and an account of their baptism shall be given hereafter.

 

15.  Mormon predicts the fate of Alma and Amulek.

Alma 8:30 And Alma went forth, and also Amulek, among the people, to declare the words of God unto them; and they were filled with the Holy Ghost.

31 And they had power given unto them, insomuch that they could not be confined in dungeons; neither was it possible that any man could slay them; nevertheless they did not exercise their power until they were bound in bands and cast into prison. Now, this was done that the Lord might show forth his power in them.

 

16.  Mormon gives an account of the mission of the sons of Mosiah.

Mosiah 28: 7 And the Lord said unto Mosiah: Let them go up, for many shall believe on their words, and they shall have eternal life; and I will deliver thy sons out of the hands of the Lamanites.

9 And they took their journey into the wilderness to go up to preach the word among the Lamanites; and I shall give an account of their proceedings hereafter.

 

17.  And the tour de force….

Nephi’s prophecies concerning his people. 1 Nephi 25 and 26.

• The Messiah will come 600  years after the Lehites left Jerusalem.
• Nephi's words will be kept, preserved, and handed down from generation to generation.
• There will be many wars among them
• Christ will appear to the Nephites after his resurrection
• Christ’s words will become their law
• Signs will be given them of Christ’s birth, death, and resurrection
• The wicked Nephites will be swallowed up into the earth, mountains will cover them, whirlwinds will carry them away,                                                                                                                                                                              buildings will fall on them, they will be visited with thundering, lightning, earthquakes, and fire
• The righteous Nephites will be preserved
• Christ will heal them and they will prosper in righteousness
• After four generations, they will begin to be destroyed because of wickedness

This does not seem to help you at all really. As a work of fiction the author would have the whole of the lot before them.  It is pretty easy to put prophecy in the mouth of the character in the book when the prophecy has already come to pass. It is also telling that the prophecies of Nephi about the founding of the USA, Columbus, etc abruptly stop at the time the book of Mormon was published and it was passed off as "Well those items are left for John the Revelator to write so we cannot write about them here.

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I agree that it is pretty amazing, but an easy target for critics, in saying the whole thing was "fiction" so of course he knew the "end from the beginning"   When one is writing a long volume, it typically requires that you have an outline prepared ahead of time, already in your mind, of course but the creative part can be developed on the fly. 

So perhaps you have a general sense of where the plot is going, but how the protagonist escapes from jail, say, in your novel, is not totally put together mentally until you are actually writing it.

Satan is very talented at turning good into evil.

I think probably there are many thinking this right now, but saying nothing.

And I just made that very point.

[Teancum]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So are you saying that while dictating the text Joseph had the ability to remember each time he foretold something and then to include its resolution later sometimes after hundreds of pages in the narrative without notes or review? For example, all the details in 1 Nephi 25-26. and Gadianton. Please explain the process.
 

IMO, that is a phenomenal feat. He must have had a stratospheric IQ or a memory with total recall.  I like my editor/compiler solution better than this. I would love to hear from the critics.

Well your assumption that Joseph was dictating from plates or from seeing something on the seer stone is an a priori assumption.  If the book had already been written when he stages the translation process then your point  is not valid.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well your assumption that Joseph was dictating from plates or from seeing something on the seer stone is an a priori assumption.  If the book had already been written when he stages the translation process then your point  is not valid.

The translation process has been well-established.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

This does not seem to help you at all really. As a work of fiction the author would have the whole of the lot before them.  It is pretty easy to put prophecy in the mouth of the character in the book when the prophecy has already come to pass. It is also telling that the prophecies of Nephi about the founding of the USA, Columbus, etc abruptly stop at the time the book of Mormon was published and it was passed off as "Well those items are left for John the Revelator to write so we cannot write about them here.

I deliberately left out his prophecies about Columbus, et al., and only included those that were fulfilled throughout the rest of the Book of Mormon.

What is  your evidence that he had "the whole of the lot before [him]"?

Edited June 21, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

The translation process has been well-established.

 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I deliberately left out his prophecies about Columbus, et al., and only included those that were fulfilled throughout the rest of the Book of Mormon.

What is  your evidence that he had "the whole of the lot before [him]"?

Critics don’t accept that Joseph was honest. I believe he was a liar and a conman. This was a man practiced in deceiving people. He was taken and charged in court for leading people on treasure hunts after treasure that always just slipped away deeper into the earth. You’ll excuse me if I don’t take Joseph’s word for it.
 

Joseph had Oliver and Martin terrified. The Book of Mormon tells us that the penalty for unauthorized use of the interpreters is death. Further from the historical record we know that both Oliver and Harris knew that the penalty for misuse was death. For Oliver:
 

Quote

A few days after these men appeared again, a few of us went to see them and Cowdery was requested to state how the plates were found, which he did. He stated that Smith looked onto or through the transparent stones to translate what was on the plates. I then asked him if he had ever looked through the stones to see what he could see in them; his reply was that he was not permitted to look into them. I asked him who debarred him from looking into them; he remained sometime in silence, then said that he had so much confidence in his friend Smith, who told him that he must not look into them, that he did not presume to do so lest he should tempt God and be struck dead

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2024/02/20/me-my-shelf-i-episode-1-seer-stones-questions-criticisms
 

For Harris:

Quote

 

The way that Smith made his transcripts and transcriptions for Harris was the following. Although in the same room, a thick curtain or blanket was suspended between them, and Smith concealed behind the blanket, pretended to look through his spectacles, or transparent stones, and would then write down or repeat what he saw, which, when repeated aloud, was written down by Harris, who sat on the other side of the suspended blanket. Harris was told that it would arouse the most terrible divine displeasure, if he should attempt to draw near the sacred chest, or look at Smith while engaged in the work of decyphering the mysterious characters. This was Harris’s own account of the matter to me.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2009/10/24/twa-project-the-curtain-accounts

So the idea Joseph couldn’t have hidden something akin to note cards when his scribes were literally afraid of dying if they looked too close is more than a little hard to swallow for me. 

Edited June 21, 2024 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Bernard Gui]

58 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

Critics don’t accept that Joseph was honest. I believe he was a liar and a conman. This was a man practiced in deceiving people. He was taken and charged in court for leading people on treasure hunts after treasure that always just slipped away deeper into the earth. You’ll excuse me if I don’t take Joseph’s word for it.
 

Joseph had Oliver and Martin terrified. The Book of Mormon tells us that the penalty for unauthorized use of the interpreters is death. Further from the historical record we know that both Oliver and Harris knew that the penalty for misuse was death. For Oliver:
 

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2024/02/20/me-my-shelf-i-episode-1-seer-stones-questions-criticisms
 

For Harris:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2009/10/24/twa-project-the-curtain-accounts

So the idea Joseph couldn’t have hidden something akin to note cards when his scribes were literally afraid of dying if they looked too close is more than a little hard to swallow for me. 

Critics usually say those kinds of things about people they dislike. Regarding treasure seeking, that has been beaten to death. We all do foolish things, especially when we are young and desperately poor.

 

I prefer to believe the men who knew him best....

Quote

Who can justly say aught against Joseph Smith? I was as well acquainted with him, as any man. I do not believe that his father and mother knew him any better than I did. I do not think that a man lives on the earth that knew him any better than I did; and I am bold to say that, Jesus Christ excepted, no better man ever lived or does live upon this earth. I am his witness...Brigham Young

These were days never to be forgotten— to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history or record called ‘The book of Mormon'...Oliver Cowdery  I did see the plates on which the Book of Mormon was written; I did see the Angel; I did hear the voice of God; and I do know that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, holding the keys to the Holy Priesthood...Martin Harris on his deathbed.

I testify that I was acquainted with Joseph Smith for years. I have traveled with him; I have been with him in private and in public; I have associated with him in councils of all kinds; I have listened hundreds of times to his public teachings, and his advice to his friends and associates of a more private nature. I have been at his house and seen his deportment in his family. I have seen him arraigned before the tribunals of his country, and have seen him honorably acquitted, and delivered from the pernicious breath of slander, and the machinations and falsehoods of wicked and corrupt men. I was with him living, and with him when he died, when he was murdered in Carthage jail by a ruthless mob . . . with their faces painted. I was there and was myself wounded; I at that time received four balls in my body. I have seen him, then, under these various circumstances, and I testify before God, angels, and men, that he was a good, honorable, virtuous man—that his doctrines were good, scriptural, and wholesome—that his precepts were such as became a man of God—that his private and public character was unimpeachable—and that he lived and died as a man of God and a gentleman. This is my testimony...John Taylor who was with Joseph when he was killed.

Brother Joseph you did not ask me to cross the river with you—you did not ask me to come to Carthage, you did not ask me to come to jail with you—and do you think I would forsake you now? But I will tell you what I will do, if you are condemned to be hung for treason, I will be hung in your stead, and you shall go free...Willard Richards as he joined Joseph in the Carthage jail.

 

 Oliver and Martin never said they feared for their lives. How do you know that?

To avoid further derailment, do you have any insight into what I have pointed out about foreshadowing in the Book of Mormon?

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I prefer to believe the men who knew him best....

Men like William Law?

 

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oliver and Martin never said they feared for their lives. How do you know that?

I provided quotes for both that illustrate that both believed getting too close to the “divine”  interpreters would result in death. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

To avoid further derailment, do you have any insight into what I have pointed out about foreshadowing in the Book of Mormon?

Nothing more than that you’re begging the question by assuming your conclusion. Isn’t it amazing that Joseph did this without notes! Let’s assume he didn’t have notes. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

I don't have enough faith to believe that a 23 year-old farmboy with a new wife, babies on the way, and a farmstead to tend to could've invented a book with the internal consistency and Hebrew trademarks with which it is filled.

I invite all critics to write a work of equal quality and allow their work to undergo the same withering scrutiny the Book of Mormon has gone through through the last almost 2 centuries.

Until then, I will continue to be skeptical of your skepticism.

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

IMO, that is a phenomenal feat. He must have had a stratospheric IQ or a memory with total recall.  I like my editor/compiler solution better than this. I would love to hear from the critics.

I think this is highly possible BUT if you have an OUTLINE in your head about what you will talk about this time, and what follows that logically for less 2, then 3, etc, then it is easy to make it look as if it was all one discussion.

That's the way I prepare for lessons and talks- I write a simple outline of what I want to say and then just take a list with me onto the pulpit and cover each point.

I don't need to have it word by word- just idea by idea.  But an "idea" could be a whole series of talks or a "book" chapter by chapter.

So today my topic is abc, tomorrow defg, then h- a long discussion- then on the next day, I will hit I JK- where K is actually the resolution of some mystery I put forth way back in A.

So now I have an outline.

So I can say things and plant in A- that which will be resolved in next week in part K, when I get to that point!   Mystery solved about how it all "comes together" and it looks like I have an eidetic memory when all it was- was a plan!

I am not putting down JS- he was clearly an exceptional exceptional person BUT having an outline to reach a conclusion is not a mystery!

So for me, if I did a series about the philosophy of Mormonism and how philosophy evolved to justify a Pragmatic approach to the church- I would start with Plato, then how Aristotle modified Plato, leading to the "Apostasy".   So that could be 3 one hour discussions right there.  Next you have Descartes carrying forth Aristotle's dualism, then the one who turned the trend all around, Kant.  Then how Kant was modified by James and Dewey into Pragmatism, then Pragmatism leading to Wittgenstein who revolutionized all of philosophy, leading to postmodernism and these "new" ideas that we should find out own "truth" by personal revelation.

That's a book right there!   Now all I have to do is dictate it! 

So as long as you know in general what you will say in what order, putting it all together and getting it done becomes the object, because you already have the content in your head!

B, a B, a B, that's all folks!  (Porky Pig- now too politically incorrect to revive....) 

 

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think this is highly possible BUT if you have an OUTLINE in your head about what you will talk about this time, and what follows that logically for less 2, then 3, etc, then it is easy to make it look as if it was all one discussion.

That's the way I prepare for lessons and talks- I write a simple outline of what I want to say and then just take a list with me onto the pulpit and cover each point.

I don't need to have it word by word- just idea by idea.  But an "idea" could be a whole series of talks or a "book" chapter by chapter.

So today my topic is abc, tomorrow defg, then h- a long discussion- then on the next day, I will hit I JK- where K is actually the resolution of some mystery I put forth way back in A.

So now I have an outline.

Yep, this is how I do it. I will often have six words written down to move through when I speak and the words make no sense to anyone else.

[webbles]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So the idea Joseph couldn’t have hidden something akin to note cards when his scribes were literally afraid of dying if they looked too close is more than a little hard to swallow for me. 

The curtain is interesting because we have witnesses that say there was a curtain and witnesses who say there weren't a curtain (see the bottom of the same page you linked to for some of those references).  Hiding behind a curtain makes it a lot easier to have note cards but it is much harder when there is no curtain.  The fact that he apparently translated the plates under lots of different settings (curtain, no curtain, hat, no hat, in the family area, in a private room, multiple transcribers, etc), makes it harder to believe that he was able to pull of a con on all the people who had the opportunity to watch.

There's also the story from Martin where he swapped out the seer stone from the hat.  That doesn't sound like he was afraid of dying to look too closely if he was willing to look in the hat and swap the stone.

It is also interesting that Oliver apparently had an attempt to translate the plates.  I personally think he tried to use a dowsing rod to do the translation and that mechanism didn't work.  But it would be odd for Joseph Smith to have had a book pre-written or with notes and then trust another person to "translate" without giving him access to said notes?  Maybe Joseph just expected Oliver to fail since he knew it was all a fraud and so he "allowed" Oliver to attempt to help strengthen his position?

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Men like William Law?

 

I provided quotes for both that illustrate that both believed getting too close to the “divine”  interpreters would result in death. 

Derail. Start your own thread to discuss this, please.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Derail. Start your own thread to discuss this, please.

Sorry. Will drop. I presented it to show the idea of no notes can’t be supported by the data since the closest witnesses were afraid to look too closely. 

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yep, this is how I do it. I will often have six words written down to move through when I speak and the words make no sense to anyone else.

Yep it makes it all quite easy.  If it takes me more than an hour or two to put together a talk, I am surprised that the topic was more complex than usual or whatever.

And EQ's discussions are even quicker- since you have the whole talk laid out before you, pick out several paragraphs to read out loud, and ask a few somewhat "NEW" ideas or slightly controversial things to discuss- (and of course the argument in favor of the church always wins in this context- ) and you are done.   

 

[webbles]

You didn't mention the 1 Nephi 12/13 vision, which appears to be the source for the 2 Nephi 25/26 prophecies.  That vision and the prophecies kind of puzzle me.  This part of the Book of Mormon was translated near the end.  So by this time, Joseph had already written out what is being prophesied.  I feel it would be pretty easy to have remembered a summary of what had happened.  Except the prophecy doesn't look very accurate to me.  The prophecy only talks about his seed and his brothers seed with absolutely no mention of the Zarahemlites.  It makes it seem like his seed is still separate from his brothers seed at the end, but 4 Nephi says that the two completely intermixed and separated based on religion, not ancestry.  So the Nephites after 4 Nephi may not be descendants of Nephi.  Even the 4 generation prophecy is possibly inaccurate since people started to break away while the 2nd generation was still alive (see 4 Nephi 1:20,22) so it is possible that some 2nd or 3rd generation were not righteous.  And 4 Nephi doesn't really deal with generations but with centuries (first century is righteous, second century is mostly righteous, third century has major divisions).

If Joseph was making it up and had notes to remember all of the important details, 1 Nephi 12/13 doesn't feel that way.  The vision actually looks inaccurate to me.  So I'm not sure whether it is a true vision or something made up by Joseph.  Based on visions in the Bible, it fits as a vision because it is somewhat vague.  But based on other visions/prophecies in the Book of Mormon, it doesn't fit because it is somewhat vague.  But it should've been more like the other Book of Mormon prophecies if Joseph was making it up because he had already written everything so knew the ending and didn't need to be vague.  So it just puzzles me.

[Bernard Gui]

18. Another prophecy, this one from Alma about the future conversion of the Lamanites.

Alma 9:

16 For there are many promises which are extended to the Lamanites; for it is because of the traditions of their fathers that caused them to remain in their state of ignorance; therefore the Lord will be merciful unto them and prolong their existence in the land.

17 And at some period of time they will be brought to believe in his word, and to know of the incorrectness of the traditions of their fathers; and many of them will be saved, for the Lord will be merciful unto all who call on his name.

Edited June 22, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep it makes it all quite easy.  If it takes me more than an hour or two to put together a talk, I am surprised that the topic was more complex than usual or whatever.

And EQ's discussions are even quicker- since you have the whole talk laid out before you, pick out several paragraphs to read out loud, and ask a few somewhat "NEW" ideas or slightly controversial things to discuss- (and of course the argument in favor of the church always wins in this context- ) and you are done.   

 

All the time asking for the direction of the Spirit, of course. But we digress.